ZOA, Israeli rabbis press for Pollard pardon

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The Zionist Organization of America and 200 Israeli chief rabbis asked President Bush to pardon Jonathan Pollard.

Requests to pardon the former U.S. Navy analyst, sentenced in 1987 to life for spying for Israel, are routine, but these pleas come as Bush prepares to leave office at a record low popularity – a condition that has paradoxically in the past freed presidents to make unpopular pardons.

Bush’s father, for instance, pardoned officials in his administration allegedly involved in the illegal arms—for-hostages deal with Iran after his defeat to President Clinton in 1992.

In its letter, the ZOA emphasized the relative harshness of the sentence – life for passing information to an ally, comparable to sentences for Cold War spies whose betrayals led to the deaths of Americans.

"The on-going imprisonment of Jonathan Pollard is unnecessary, unjust, disproportionate and inexplicable in terms of protecting the national interest," the ZOA said. "We respectfully appeal to you to put an end to what is now an inequitable term of imprisonment and pardon Jonathan Pollard."

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[Ganja Ninja]

1. Fuck that!

Let that traitor rot.

[Howardx]

2. give it up zoa

he stays in prison.

[Benhurst]

3. If I weren't opposed to capital punishment, I'd say, "Off with his head!"

Since I am, let him rot in prison for his treason.

[Tarc]

4. If a spy is caught from a supposed ALLY, that is a far greater breach of trust, IMO

One fully expects enemy nations to try and spy on you. It is quite another type of breach entirely when it is from a supposed ally.

This traitor can rot til he dies.

[eyl]

6. The moral indignation would ring more true

If the US wasn't spying on its allies either.

[LeftishBrit]

7. Hear hear!

[LeftishBrit]

18. PS This article was just posted on GD

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Report_US_spied_on_Blair_...

Not that it doesn't serve Blair right, but still!

[shaayecanaan]

11. There is a difference...

between the ways that UKUSA countries spy on each other and the way Israel spied on the US in the case of Pollard.

Australia, for example, has admitted to intercepting American defence signals in the Pacific. Mainly, this was so that Australia could easily tell whether an airborne missile was American or not. This spying was done openly, in fact it was mostly done by Australian officers in joint US/Australian facilities.

Most of the UKUSA countries admit to conducting signals intelligence on each other. It is also rumoured that countries within the alliance actually allow countries to spy on their own citizens where they are legally unable to do so. But there is a big difference between that and recruiting an American citizen to disclose highly confidential material to you. For the most part this doesnt happen, because the UKUSA countries share a fair amount of intelligence anyway. But it would be regarded as a tremendous breach of etiquette if they did.

[eyl]

12. I'm not talking just about SIGINT

See here for some examples I gave last time this came up - in particular the case of Yosef Amit.

In addition, I remember coming across several articles were US citizens were expelled from Germany and France for espionage, as well as allegations that US intelligence services were passing on foreign trade secrets to US firms (I'll see if I can find them tomorrow if you want).

The primary difference between the Pollard case and other cases of allies spying on the US and vice-versa is the publicity of the former. Usually the matter is kept quiet and the spies involved quietly expelled.

[shaayecanaan]

13. Its an open secret...

that the US and UK use ECHELON for commercial purposes, ie to pass on commercial secrets to firms in UKUSA countries. For that reason, the EU recommends that all firms use encryption when communicating with UKUSA countries, although Britain has laws requiring all companies to hand over encryption keys. Certainly the US spies on France and Germany. There is no real breach of confidence involved there, indeed the British despise the French DGSE.

The point is that UKUSA countries do have an intelligence relationship that involves a high degree of trust between those nations, and as far as relations with the US are concerned Israel would prefer to be a Britain rather than a France. Certainly the relationship was approaching that level of mutual confidence, but the Pollard affair hurt things badly. As a result US intelligence agencies now invest significantly in Israeli counterintelligence.

There is also something objectionable in my view about exploiting the ambiguous feelings of minority populations in order to try and get intelligence. South Korea did the same thing when they recruited the Korean-American Robert Kim. He also received a lengthy prison sentence and it is worth remembering he handed over thirty classified documents whereas Pollard handed over thousands. As a result Korean Americans probably felt marginally less secure than before, a feeling made no better by the belligerence of South Korean nationalists who insisted that Kim was a hero. You would think that Israel, having previously made life so difficult for Egyptian Jews by recruiting a few of them to bomb British and American targets in Egypt, would have some sense of that.

[eyl]

16. Did you read the post I referred to?

It gave examples of cases where the US employed HUMINT on Israel - the same behavior you say is beyond the pale the other way around. Specifically, the Yaron Amit case broke slightly before the Pollard case, during the time you say the US-Israel relationship was approaching the level of the US-UK one. So why is it a breach of trust for Israel to spy on the US but not vice versa?

[shaayecanaan]

19. Im not suggesting its beyond the pale...

Israel is entitled to spy on whomever it likes and is entitled to imprison its citizens for as long as it pleases. I merely suggest that if Israel wishes to become essentially a de facto member of the UKUSA intelligence community then something like Pollard poses a problem.

The Amit matter is not anywhere near the severity of Pollard. On one hand you have someone passing on troop movements in Lebanon (this was after the Israelis misled the US and the world generally when they insisted that they would only advance forty miles into Lebanese territory). On the other hand you have someone passing on a stack of documents roughly six feet by ten feet square and six feet tall, including the entire RASIN signals intelligence manual (something that even the Brits would not have access to).

[eyl]

21. That is a pragmatic argument

the comment which started this subthread was an ethical one:

"One fully expects enemy nations to try and spy on you. It is quite another type of breach entirely when it is from a supposed ally."

If it's a breach of trust for Israel to spy on the US, it's equally a breach of trust for the US to spy on Israel.

As to Amit, his espionage was not limited to troop movements (which is bad enough; leaving aside the question of what right the US had to that information*, what if it had leaked?) but apparently also included information regarding Israeli internal security. And he's not the only US spy in Israel in any case. For another example, take Andrzej Kielczynski, who allegedly (and by his own admission) passed on to the US classified information regarding Israel's nuclear program, among other things** (including information which led to Pollard's uncovering).

*I might point out that in the aftermath of the Pollard case, some Israeli officials claimed that data he stole was information Israel considered important for its own security which the US refused to share
**Kielczynski wasn't convicted AFAIK, and there are some doubts as to the reliability of his admission (i.e. the article says it may be wholly or partly self-aggrandizement) but as I mentioned in the post I referred to above, there is supporting evidence he was indeed a CIA asset.

[shaayecanaan]

25. All of my arguments are pragmatic arguments...

(mostly). Here's another pragmatic argument: Israel needs the US more than the US needs Israel.

*I might point out that in the aftermath of the Pollard case, some Israeli officials claimed that data he stole was information Israel considered important for its own security which the US refused to share

I might also point out that some of the information that Pollard stole, such as methods by which the US monitored Soviet submarines, was of no practical importance to Israel, but of acute interest to the Soviet Union. Some in the CIA roundly suspect that the information was passed off to the Soviets in exchange for Jewish emigres being permitted to migrate to Israel. Do you think that they're off the mark?

[eyl]

26. I have no idea

but ISTR allegations that Pollard was working for more than one master - that he was selling information to other parties at the same time.

Nevertheless, the argument I was addressing was the ethical one (since many of the initial posters in this thread were full of moral outrage), not the practical one - obviously, Israel can't allow itself what the US can. It's just the hypocrisy of "how dare they betray our trust that way" that I object to.

[Kurska]

5. Pollard was meant to be a example

Of what happens to people who cross the line between being a friend of israeli and not setting your loyalties straight, he has served his purpose. Let the old man out already, this man is hardly a security risk.

One has to question if there would be this kind of venom spit at a spy for canada, well no that answer is pretty self evident.

[Howardx]

8. bullshit

pollard is a traitor to the united states period. he is exactly where he belongs. its not a matter of being a security risk, its a matter of serving the punishment for the crime he committed.

[Dick Dastardly]

29. The traitor is most definitly where he belongs

Pollard is a traitor that needs to serve the punishment for his treason.

I realize we spy on friends and our friends spy on us but that does not mean its not treason and should not be severly punished especially to deter others. If one of our spys got caught I would fully expect that he would do time as well. If you cant do the time then dont do the crime

[LeftishBrit]

9. What strikes me in particular...

is that often the same people who are strongly anti-Pollard are very pro-Mordechai Vanunu. This seems to me illogical.

Anyone who betrays state secrets is likely to be severely punished by their country. There is a case for arguing that this shouldn't be the case: i.e. that national boundaries should be less important; that countries may in the long run be safer if all information is available; and/or that countries are in the long run put more at risk by their state-sponsored arms trades than by the revelations of an individual spy. But as long as betraying state secrets *is* treated as a serious crime, surely the same should apply to Vanunu as to Pollard?

[Howardx]

10. interesting

but ultimately an attempt to sidetrack, we are discussing pollard here. no one has mentioned vanunu.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Does it only strike you that one way?

<i>is that often the same people who are strongly anti-Pollard are very pro-Mordechai Vanunu.</i>

Does it also strike you that often the same people who are strongly anti-Vanunu are very pro-Pollard?

Can't say I'm all that pro or anti either of them, but there are big differences between both situations that you haven't mentioned. Pollard was a spy, selling intelligence from his own country to another country, Israel, while Vanunu was a nuclear whistle-blower who sold his story to the media (the proceeds were to go to an Anglican church in Sydney), and he confirmed what the world already knew was no great secret, despite Israel's policy of not confirming or denying that it had developed nuclear weapons. Both of them were imprisoned for their respective actions. Vanunu served his time and was imo pretty stupid to violate the terms of his release and end up in prison again. Pollard should serve his sentence and there should be no clemency. He was selling classified information to a foreign government and that's unforgivable given the position he was employed in....

[LeftishBrit]

15. No, it strikes me both ways

I've noticed in other situations too. Spies and revealers of state secrets are OK when they spy for us or a cause we support; bad when they spy on us or for a cause we oppose.

[eyl]

17. In the case of the pro-Pollard anti-Vanunu

approach there's a different rational - under an Israeli nationalist viewpoint it makes sense since one acted for Israel and the other against. But there's no equivalent viewpoint if you switch them around.

[shaayecanaan]

20. Of course there's an equivalent viewpoint...

One acted contrary to American interests, and the other did not affect American interests one way or the other. Its perfectly understandable that Americans would feel strongly about a traitor.

[eyl]

22. Yeah, but Va'anunu's supporters

generally make a moral argument, not a nationalist one.

[Dick Dastardly]

30. Both are traitors in my eyes and deserve the punishment they got.

No there is no case that you should not be severly punished for selling out your country as a traitor.

Was the US made safer by the Rosenbergs passing the Atom bomb and other secrets to the Soviets?,I dont think so. Would the world be safer if Nuke secrets were open for all?, I dont think so.

for example
Maybe my Uncle who was a lifelong liberal,a patriot,an anti-communist who loved Harry Truman, would not have had had to fight in Korea had the Soviets not had the bomb compliments of the Rosenbergs which encouraged their agression thru NK.Nor would the other Korean war vets. Maybe my other uncle and 33,000+ other US soldiers would still be alive today as well as well as 60k+ of our allies.

There are a lot of maybe's but one thing is for sure, giving someone like the Soviets the Atom Bomb did not make the world safer

[Scurrilous]

23. Pollard's wife sees golden opportunity to secure his release

Esther Pollard sends emotional letter to PM Olmert, urges him to bring up her husband's release in upcoming meeting with President Bush; after more than 20 years in prison, time is right to free Jonathan, she says

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3626923,00.html

<snip>

"The end of George W. Bush's term in office marks a golden opportunity for the release of Jonathan Pollard, imprisoned in the US for more than 20 years now, his wife Esther wrote in an emotional plea to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert Saturday evening.

"You have a golden opportunity to act resolutely in order to return my husband home – alive!" wrote Pollard's wife in her letter to Olmert, just before the PM heads to Washington.

Today, more than ever, the release of her husband could mark the "crowning glory" of both Olmert's and Bush's term in office, she wrote.

Pollard is serving his 24th year in an American prison but his wife, who has been tirelessly fighting to secure his release, believes that Olmert's upcoming farewell visit to the US is a unique opportunity that could see her husband freed from his long incarceration.

"Senior American officials who in the past objected to his release now say that the more than 20 years he spent in prison are more than enough, while others believe Jonathan is a victim of injustice," Esther Pollard wrote. "I know that Mr. Bush is willing to release Jonathan, but no official request to that effect has been made by the State of Israel."

"Washington is waiting to hear that the State of Israel is finally willing to take responsibility for her agent," Esther Pollard said."


Meanwhile...

[oberliner]

24. Probably a good idea

Worse people have been pardoned than him.

[azurnoir]

28. Pardon him witha stipulation

that he emigrate to Israel immediately after release, I know there are probably constitutional issues but we are talking a pardon for espionage and Israel should welcome him

[Scurrilous]

27. U.S. spies on Israel nukes, govt: official history

<snip>

"The United States routinely spies on Israel to try to gather information on its assumed atomic arsenal and secret government deliberations, a new official history of Israel's intelligence services says.

While espionage by allies on their friends is not uncommon, it is rare that state-sponsored publications acknowledge it. Israeli-U.S. ties have been especially touchy in this regard since a U.S. Navy analyst, Jonathan Pollard, was jailed for life for treason in 1987 for passing classified documents to Israel.

According to "Masterpiece: An Inside Look at Sixty Years of Israeli Intelligence," American spy agencies use technologies like electronic eavesdropping, and trained staff from the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, for "methodical intelligence gathering."

"The United States has been after Israel's non-conventional capabilities and what goes on at the decision-making echelons," says the book in a chapter on counter-espionage written by Barak Ben-Zur, a retired Shin Bet internal security service officer.

Asked about the assertions, the U.S. embassy spokesman said only: "We don't comment on intelligence matters."

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[IndianaGreen]

31. Pollard is a traitor. He should be shot!

The last thing we need to do is to send another religious wacko to Israel.