Shas to seek payout for Jews deported from Arab countries

[Behind the Aegis]

Shas is launching a campaign to seek compensation for Jewish refugees who came to Israel from Arab states. The campaign, part of the ultra-Orthodox party's election platform, counters Palestinian demands for the right of return of their refugees.

"Israel must state that no peace agreement would be implemented without solving the problem of the Jews from Middle Eastern states, with an emphasis on restituting their property, which is estimated at hundreds of millions of dollars," Religious Affairs Minister Yitzhak Cohen, of Shas, said Monday at Bar-Ilan University.

Part of Shas' plan consists of tracking down and registering Jewish property in Arab states, as a basis for future negotiations or agreements regarding the compensation for the Jewish refugees.

Cohen told Haaretz Monday that there are some 850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab states, most of whom are living in Israel.

"It must be proclaimed that any system of compensating Palestinian refugees as part of a peace agreement will include a parallel one to compensate the Jewish refugees," he said.

more...

[LeftishBrit]

1. Well, it isn't going to happen.

Then again, neither is unlimited right of return for Palestinians.

There are some things that would be great in an ideal world but just aren't possible in the real world.

And if Shas and similar parties didn't have the power to hold Israeli governments to political ransom, perhaps some real solutions would be a bit closer.

One crucial point, however, is that indeed 'there are some 850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab states, most of whom are living in Israel'. The all-too-common idea that Israel is just an outpost of Europe and that all Israeli Jews are 'Europaean colonists' is very naive and misleading.

[cali]

2. I don't think the comparison of Jewish refugees from Arab countries

is analoguous to that of the Palestinians- and I think the reasons are obvious. The plight of the Palestinians is dire. Not so much for the Jewish refugees who had a homeland to come to.

And Shas is just repugnant. They don't have any interest whatsoever in peace, let alone the creation of a Palestinian state.

[sabbat hunter]

3. The jews

were thrown out of Arab countries, with nothing but the clothing on their backs. The only difference is that they had people that were willing to take them in, help them out etc. This didn't happen with the palestinians who were forced out.
Other arab countries kept/keep them in refugee camps, refuse to make them citizens of their countries etc.

[cali]

4. And that's a huge difference.

I don't support the unlimited RoR and I don't support this either. It's just an attempt to muddy the waters.

[sabbat hunter]

14. I agree

What should be done IMHO is the following
1) all families thrown out of countries (be it israel or one of the arab countries) get compensation from those countries.
2) Adjust the west bank border so it follows the approximate green line, with some changes made for security purposes and that the old city remains within israel.
3) Any lands taken by israel along the west bank be compensated either monetarily or with similar land that currently is israeli
4) Israel pulls back halfway on the Golan heights, a UN force is stationed in the DMZ and Syria takes the other half. Neither side can order the UN out.
5) the UN decides once and for all whom the Sheeba farms belong to
6) Hizbollah, Hamas compensate the families of the people they killed in terror attacks
7) Israel compensates the families of civilians that were killed. (but not members of any terror organization including hamas)

[Boojatta]

16. Why not simplify that a bit?

1) all families thrown out of countries (be it israel or one of the arab countries) get compensation from those countries.

Might the compensation include land or do you mean simply monetary compensation?

3) Any lands taken by israel along the west bank be compensated either monetarily or with similar land that currently is israeli

Suppose that Israel pays some monetary compensation and also gives up some land. Alternatively, suppose that Israel makes purely monetary compensation. In each of these two cases, Israel would be obligated to pay some monetary compensation. However, what guarantee is there that Israel would actually pay? Perhaps some of the compensation described in 1) above could be paid directly to families that were thrown out of the west bank by Israel.

[azurnoir]

21. Didn't Israel have some recently "vacated" space that

needed to filled? in fact about 750,000 peoples worth of vacated space in 1947-48, which is is about the same number of Jews that were expelled and brought to Israel from Arab countries during the same time period, unfortunately the Arab countries bordering Israel did not have the equivalent nor need to fill space quickly.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

24. So your reduced to

when you can't refute attempt to insult?

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Seriously?

Refute this crap?

azurnoir (1000+ posts) Fri Nov-28-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Didn't Israel have some recently "vacated" space that
needed to filled? in fact about 750,000 peoples worth of vacated space in 1947-48, which is is about the same number of Jews that were expelled and brought to Israel from Arab countries during the same time period, unfortunately the Arab countries bordering Israel did not have the equivalent nor need to fill space quickly.

Are you sure?

[azurnoir]

26. I have already provided those facts

for another poster, the time period I cite should be payed attention to, now if my refusing to repost those figures means that you will claim I am lieing or stupid be my guest, that habit has been covered too and I will not post that either

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Oh, please, provide your facts....in the meantime, here are some real ones.

azurnoir (1000+ posts) Fri Nov-28-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Didn't Israel have some recently "vacated" space that
needed to filled? in fact about 750,000 peoples worth of vacated space in 1947-48, which is is about the same number of Jews that were expelled and brought to Israel from Arab countries during the same time period, unfortunately the Arab countries bordering Israel did not have the equivalent nor need to fill space quickly.

Your first sentence, in it's pathetic sarcasm, falls flat on the face of history. Because a supposed 750,000 Palestinians fled/were expelled from what would be known as Israel, doesn't mean the space "needed to be filled." And, anyone knowing the history of the area would know the fleeing/expulsion of the Jews from Arab/Muslim lands didn't occur in that same two-year period, nor did all of them land in Israel. Therefore, your conclusion, "....which is is about the same number of Jews that were expelled and brought to Israel from Arab countries... is historically inaccurate.

The comment about the surrounding Arab countries may not have had a "need" to fill the space quickly, but simple geography would show the surrounding countries are much larger than Israel, especially if all are combined and could have 'easily' absorbed a dispersed population of that size much better than a newly created Israel. However, the Arab nations did not follow Israel's example and integrate the population into their own ranks, but rather forced a many into "refugee" camps. Also, the Jewish refugees did not have a special UN committee created for their needs; they were largely ignored and forgotten.

[azurnoir]

28. If as you claim my statement is inaccurate

then for once prove it, you make these charges but never substantiate them ever, you simply say that it is up to me to prove myself not a liar. however you have also admitted in the past that it is you who will call a person a liar with the full knowledge that they are not simply to make them prove it or go through the work of assembling the facts and figures. Is this some sort of "power trip"?
Last night I stated I would not post your statement as to your habit of doing this and I still will not out of courtesy but will charge you with doing the work to prove me wrong for once back your charges up, my numbers still stand the new state of Israel during it s transition in 1947 to 1948 expelled approximately 750,000 Palestinians and in the time period from 1947 to 1950 about the same number of Jews were expelled from Arab counties. Now there see ya got me I extended my time line on Jewish expulsion by two years and of course that there were more Palestinians expelled from Israel in a shorter time frame that Jews from Arab countries, is that the "inaccuracy" you had in mind?
Meaning of course I LIED there are you happy now dear?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

31. It was an exchage with you that

I corrected your claims, but here you are again, your figure 850,00 as you should well know is inclusive of the years until the year 2000 that would be 50 years after my my given dates there have been additional "evictions" of Arabs from Israel since the dates I gave also most markedly after the 1967 war.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. We aren't playing "what ever is written is "fact" w/o proof?" Or does that only apply to your posts?

You provided no facts, simply a string of sentences and acted is if they were "facts." Then, to compound it, a following posts claims you've already posted the facts to another poster; so why not just "cut and paste?" Also, is English your primary language? It may sound snarky, but it is a honest question as you seem not to understand some words and constructs. In the case of this post, the word is "liar." A 'liar' is someone who knowingly says (posts) something s/he knows to be untrue. I have made no such claim because I don't know if you know what you are posting is inaccurate.

"however you have also admitted in the past that it is you who will call a person a liar with the full knowledge that they are not simply to make them prove it or go through the work of assembling the facts and figures." Prove it.

"Last night I stated I would not post your statement as to your habit of doing this and I still will not out of courtesy..." This is your MO. You state you can 'prove' something, then negate it with an excuse.

"...my numbers still stand the new state of Israel during it s transition in 1947 to 1948 expelled approximately 750,000 Palestinians and in the time period from 1947 to 1950 about the same number of Jews were expelled from Arab counties." Will address this at the end.

"Now there see ya got me I extended my time line on Jewish expulsion by two years and of course that there were more Palestinians expelled from Israel in a shorter time frame that Jews from Arab countries, is that the "inaccuracy" you had in mind? Meaning of course I LIED there are you happy now dear?" Well, dear, this shows you were incorrect, and by my pointing this out, you are now claiming victim-hood rather than just admitting you were incorrect.

So you want facts? Do you really want them? Here they are:

FACT: The Palestinian expulsion/exodus lasted until 1949. source

FACT: The Jewish expulsion/exodus lasted into the 60's. source

FACT: Israel is 8,019.3 sq mi source

FACT: Lebanon is 4,035 sq mi source

FACT: Syria is 71,479 sq mi source

FACT: Jordan is 45,495 sq mi source

FACT: Egypt is 387,048 sq mi source

FACT: The West Bank is 5,860 km² (2263 sq mi) source

FACT: Gaza is 360 sq km (140 sq mi) source

FACT: The areas surrounding Israel total 510,460 sq mi. (add the above)

FACT: The surrounding areas of Israel are are almost 64 times larger.

FACT: The 750,000 Palestinian refugees were absorbed into multiple nations, where as 2/3 of the Jewish refugees were absorbed into one place, Israel. source

FACT: The number of Palestinian refugees by country as of 2005 were as follows:

Jordan 1,827,877 refugees
Gaza 986,034 refugees
West Bank 699,817 refugees
Syria 432,048 refugees
Lebanon 404,170 refugees
Saudi Arabia 240,000 refugees
Egypt 70,245 refugees<1> source

compare to

"Roughly half of Israel's 5 million Jews are Jewish refugees from Arab countries or their descendants, and they received no humanitarian aid from the United Nations." source

[azurnoir]

33. Ah ha

for your apparent claim of a total 2.5 million Jews that were expelled from Arab countries that is quite the increase from 850,000 does that include their descendants that were born in Israel? Be that as it may when I linked to your source for the number of Jewish refugees I got this

Sorry, the page you were looking for cannot be found BTW I tried it twice

the number of Palestinian refugees does however include descendants born outside of Israel in the total of 4,660,191, there were not that many Palestinians directly expelled from Israel
What does the size of the surrounding countries have to do with anything? It is not the size but the economy and motivation to accept refugees most of these countries are quite impoverished and none has proclaimed itself to the homeland for all of the world's Muslim's or Arabs as Israel has for Jews.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Read more carefully.

"for your apparent claim of a total 2.5 million Jews that were expelled from Arab countries that is quite the increase from 850,000 does that include their descendants that were born in Israel?"

From the post to which you replied:

""Roughly half of Israel's 5 million Jews are Jewish refugees from Arab countries or their descendants,..." I have no idea why the link is not working, it isn't working for me either, yet I tested it twice. But, no matter, the answer to your "question" was in the quote provided.

"What does the size of the surrounding countries have to do with anything?"

"...unfortunately the Arab countries bordering Israel did not have the equivalent ("vacated space") source -- azurnoir post #21

"It is not the size but the economy and motivation to accept refugees most of these countries are quite impoverished..." This tactic is commonly known as "moving the goal posts." During the 1947-49, Israel also had little economy and was quite impoverished, as well, though the motivation for relocation was there.

"...and none has proclaimed itself to the homeland for all of the world's Muslim's or Arabs as Israel has for Jews." An irrelevant point because no one said anything of the such, therefore rendering it as a strawman.

And, don't forget:

"however you have also admitted in the past that it is you who will call a person a liar with the full knowledge that they are not simply to make them prove it or go through the work of assembling the facts and figures." Prove it.

"Last night I stated I would not post your statement as to your habit of doing this and I still will not out of courtesy..." This is your MO. You state you can 'prove' something, then negate it with an excuse.

[azurnoir]

35. Dear BTA

Ya got me and your right i missed the descendants part, but that still changes or proves nothing except that the Palestinian birth rate is higher than that of Israeli Jews, but that is common knowledge on this forum anyway.
do you want to search for your comment the DU advanced search function makes it rather easy to, and I note when issuing your "challenge" you edit my sentence to leave out just what I was talking about. My argument about Israel being the Jewish homeland and I will add here one that allows almost any Jew or partial Jew the right of return being a strawman is that your general opinion about Israel as the Jewish Homeland or just when that fact is used in a way works against your argument.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Still up to you.

You prove it. You made the claim, you substantiate it. I edited nothing; I provided the full quote.

The facts provided, by me, disproved your original "facts."

Again, read carefully:

"...and none has proclaimed itself to the homeland for all of the world's Muslim's or Arabs as Israel has for Jews."

The strawamn is the one YOU created and that would be, this time in bold:

"...and none has proclaimed itself to the homeland for all of the world's Muslim's or Arabs as Israel has for Jews."

And now, you have created a new strawman: "My argument about Israel being the Jewish homeland and I will add here one that allows almost any Jew or partial Jew the right of return being a strawman is that your general opinion about Israel as the Jewish Homeland or just when that fact is used in a way works against your argument." As I never disputed Israel is considered the homeland for Jews, to imply I do not believe it be true or only believe it untrue when a "fact" works against my argument, is a strawman.

[Vegasaurus]

37. There are 22 Muslim countries, right surrounding Israel

Palestinians could have (but weren't allowed to) settle in any of them,

There are Muslim homelands, which don't allow Jews (or even Christians, those that are there, to live without persecution) all over the globe.

Why are you so bent out of shape about a Jewish homeland?

Would you have preferred that the Jews were annihilated completely, as Israel was about the only place that many Holocaust survivors could even go after they were almost systematically wiped out as a people.

Why people deny reality I will never understand.

[azurnoir]

38. Israel has 22 countries on it's borders?

Thanks for that info, I could have sworn that there were 4 that being Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza is a supposed sovereign area so not quite a country, I am probably mistaken about Israel having treaties with at least 2 countries. Those would be Egypt and Jordan so that leaves Lebanon and Gaza. Lebanon has its own problems and Gaza which "someone" here has compared to the Wehrmacht saying that Jews would be marched into ovens if........

as for your quotes:

Why are you so bent out of shape about a Jewish homeland?

What are you implying why do not just say it straight out? I did not realize that pointing out that Israel may have treated Jewish refugees better than Arab countries treated Palestinian refugees because Israel is the Jewish homeland and that in fact it's very existance may have something to do with Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab countries having a place to go equated to being upset about Israels very existence. However I an estimated 1.2 to 1.6 billion Muslims divided between 22 countries is far too generous for those people, but one country for 14 million albeit less than half that number chose to live there is not enough at least for some

Would you have preferred that the Jews were annihilated completely, as Israel was about the only place that many Holocaust survivors could even go after they were almost systematically wiped out as a people.

Did you know that know that there is this place called "the Western Hemisphere"? And in this hemisphere one of these countries namely the US rumor has it have a greater Jewish population than Israel? A population that along with the entire Jewish population of that hemisphere was safe from the Holocaust? As for my preferences believe what ever you want if fact post those beliefs often if you like, I do not usually alert posts addressed to me unless they contain profanity, now 2 posts to me me been deleted in the past 24 hrs I did not alert either of them one I answered and the other I never even saw other than to see it had been deleted which "bugs" me. And as far as your implication that I would have preferred that Jews be wiped out entirely that would kind of suicidal of me now wouldn't it? But I can understand how this would be hard for to understand especially those who worship the return of a Jew from the dead by eating ham on the day it supposedly occurred.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. 5. You forgot Syria.

[azurnoir]

40. Your right n/t

[LeftishBrit]

5. Absolutely - but that is because Israel treats its refugees much better than the Arab states treat

Palestinian refugees. Not that this makes it any better for the refugees, but the Arab governments need to shoulder quite a lot of blame.

'And Shas is just repugnant. They don't have any interest whatsoever in peace, let alone the creation of a Palestinian state.'

ITA! Just one more bunch of religious-righties getting in the way of progress and peace. And what's even more repugnant is that the Israelie political system gives such a small party such disproportionate power.

I used to be in favour of a pure proportional-representation systen until I discovered its disastrous effects on Israeli politics.

[Vegasaurus]

6. Whether or not people agree with Shas or not

There is a legitimate claim that Jews, kicked out of Arab countries in equal numbers to the Palestinians who left Israel, should be compensated.

They had all of their land, homes, and possessions stolen for them, and they were never compensated a penny.

[cali]

7. So what? All legitimate claims from both sides cannot possibly

be met. Sacrifice is called for. The RoR is a non-starter and I think this should be too. And frankly, the Israeli burden is greater than the Palestinian one, imo.

[Vegasaurus]

8. I happen to agree with you.

But the fact is that the Jews who were forcibly evicted from Arab countries lost everything.

That they aren't still living on the global dole after 60 years is hardly their problem.

The fact is that both peoples lost land and possessions.

Neither is going back, so the question is what to do about it now.

[cali]

9. The global dole?

The Jews had a country to go to. The Palestinians did not. And that the Arab nations are in large part responsible for that, in no way makes the Palestinians culpable. Blaming the Palestinians is really repugnant.

[Vegasaurus]

10. The Palestinians had an opportunity for their own country too, just as the Jews did

They chose war instead.

There are consequences for continual bad choices of the Arab/Palestinian leadership.

Unfortunately, those that also suffer are the innocents, particularly children, who are pawns in the whole nightmare.

[Shaktimaan]

17. I don't think that's what Vegas means.

The Palestinians bear some responsibility for creating the conditions which caused them to lose their land. Had the Palestinians refrained from first launching attacks on the Yishuv in the 20's and 30's, (killing Jewish residents, often regardless of whether they were native Jews or immigrants), then the two groups could have possibly lived and worked together in a single, peaceful state, thus avoiding the whole conflict.

It was this aggression against the Jews followed by the Great Arab Revolt in 1936-39 (also initiated by the Palestinians) that convinced the British and the UN that the land would have to be partitioned between Jews and Arabs to maintain peace. While the Jews accepted this ruling, along with most of the rest of the world, the Arab states rejected it and refused to abide by it.

The day after the UN ruling passed the Palestinians began a civil war in Israel targeting Jewish communities. (It was during this war that the Palestinians began fleeing.) It wasn't until after Israel claimed independence that the Arab states invaded and the international war against Israel began. By this time most of the Palestinians who were going to flee had already fled.

In this regard, some would argue that the Palestinians themselves bear as much responsibility as Israel for the loss of their land.

[Vegasaurus]

18. This is exactly what I mean

The Arabs and Palestinians have a great deal of responsibility for their own misery.

And yet, they continue to blame others, and expect to place great demands on the entire global community.

They will never have a state, as long as they cannot put improving their own lives as top priority.

Jews were practically annihilated completely.

They have managed to build a thriving society out of nothing, a society which provides some of the greatest technological advances in the world.

If Holocaust survivors could do this, after what they had been through, Palestinians, with the support of the entire world (Jews had no support to speak of) certainly could have had a thriving state decades ago.

They need to do some soul searching, not blaming, to determine why they still live in misery.

[shira]

19. The The Palestinian and Arab/Muslim world lacks the strong leadership....

...necessary to work WITH the Jewish homeland instead of AGAINST it. This has been the case since even before Israel became a nation in 1948.

When state-run Arab/Muslim governments focus largely on indoctrination programs in every sector of their media that encourages enormous hate and intolerance toward "zionists" (even the ones targeted in Argentina or Seattle, or Olympic athlets in Munich), this proves non-condusive to any truly dovish leadership that can ever rise to power and remain strongly committed to actual peace.

How can dovish leadership within Arab/Muslim society even get off the ground and remain allowed to exist within a hostile regime that doesn't allow freedom of dissent, and will never allow civil liberties for women and all minorities?

When such regimes intentionally keep the bottom dwellers down, suffocate any chances they have of economic or educational equality (there will never be a Barack Obama in such societies) and then blame all the country's economic woes on "the other" country - and further - they have NO DESIRE whatsoever of becoming peaceful with a society that will only embarass them and make them look ridiculous and backward in comparison....what hope is there for peace without a MAJOR shakeup going down?

[Vegasaurus]

20. Dovish leadership will always be shot down in Arab/Muslim society

because the goal isn't peace at all, but suppression of the populace.

Inciting anger and hatred towards "another" keeps the focus off their internal problems, and keeps the populace angry at people other than their own failed 'leadership' who are responsible for the misery anyway.

[LeftishBrit]

11. The point is that the Middle Eastern Jews were treated much better by Israel

than the Palestinians by the Arab states.

This makes Arab governments hypocritical when they blame everything on Israel. But at the same time, the Palestinians aren't scroungers, as the expression 'global dole' could imply. They've been treated pretty badly by everyone.


'Neither is going back, so the question is what to do about it now.'

I certainly agree there.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Why does it matter how the Jews were treated?

Were they not victims of a crime? Why should they not seek reparations? While having no love for Shas whatsoever, they have pointed out a grave hypocrisy in the peace movement.

[oberliner]

12. I don't like where this is headed

This conflict is never going to end if people are unable to let go of the past, horrendous though it may have been.

[LeftishBrit]

13. I fully agree

There is altogether too much emphasis on who is to blame for what in the past, rather than how to solve the issue for the future. I hope people on both sides will accept that this has to change, and that it won't take over 300 years before that happens, as it did with the Northern Ireland conflict.

[azurnoir]

22. If the American public was smarter than to be fooled

by Joe the Plumber or other tactics used by McCain in his recent campaign, IMO the Israeli public is smarter than to fooled by Shas's empty words and promises, not to mention divisive tactics

[IndianaGreen]

30. Right of return plus compensation to Jews and Palestinians

Sounds like grounds for negotiation.