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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:16 PM
Original message
UNRWA Admits: IDF Didn't Hit School
During the Cast Lead operation in Gaza, IDF tank fire near a United Nations school in Gaza was blamed for the deaths of dozens of civilians who had taken refuge in the building. The incident became one of the most highly publicized attacks in the war, and led to heavy international criticism. However, recent reports suggest that the incident was not accurately portrayed by senior U.N. Officials.

John Ging, the director of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza, spoke to the Toronto Globe and Mail last week and agreed that no shell had actually struck the school building. Ging said he had never claimed that the school itself was hit, and he blamed Israel for confusion over where the strike took place.

Shortly after the alleged attack, Ging harshly criticized Israel for firing near the school, saying he had given the exact coordinates of the compound to the IDF and suggesting they had failed to avoid hitting the building.

While admitting that Israeli fire had not hit the school compound, Ging insisted it made little difference. “Forty-one innocent people were killed in the street... The State of Israel still has to answer for that,” he said.
===================================================
And people jumped me for pointing out Ging had an agenda...
more: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129696
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. It seems he does. nt
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. So this jagoff lies, then blames Israel for the resulitng confustion.
Par for the UN course.
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alexandria Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah ,blame the Jews/NT
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. He didnt lie
Israel, on the other hand, lied plenty. For example, when Israel stated that a count of 42 deaths was an exaggeration from Hamas. That was a lie. And when Israel showed footage from 2007 of Hamas firing from a schoolground, implying that Hamas was firing from the school grounds on that occasion. Also a lie.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. you're wrong
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 07:09 AM by shira
Everyone knows for the past 2 weeks, that all accusations were pointed at Israel for taking aim and firing in the direction of the school, as though coordinates were given to Israel and they fired anyway - and the understanding by MILLIONS of people worldwide was that Israel fired on the UN school.

This SCHMUCK called for the teachers from that school to not talk to the press and he let the false impression stand for over 10 days, as PR help for Hamas that could only help them slow down Israel's assault via bad press, UN, etc.

Here's the UN report, which is a LIE based on lying testimony:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/ce9acc1cc8bc73ad8525753700596413!OpenDocument


Decrying mounting civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip since Israel launched its military offensive there some 11 days ago, the head of United Nations relief operations in the enclave today demanded an independent investigation into a spate of overnight and early-morning air strikes on several clearly marked schools.

In addition to the 30 people killed, 55 others had been injured by three Israeli artillery shells landing on the perimeter of a United Nations school in the Jabaliya refugee camp, where civilians had fled seeking refuge from the ongoing violence.

Emphasizing that all United Nations schools in Gaza were clearly marked, he said they flew the Organization's flag and Israel had long been provided with the GPS coordinates of all its installations in the area. ‘So the people in Gaza feel that nowhere is safe’


Do you want to pretend that all that rage HERE at DU was not based on this schmuck's false, pro-Hamas propaganda report? Shall we dig up the archives here and look at the stories and comments?

And Israel never claimed that footage from 2007 was from 3 weeks ago. Only that there's evidence UN schools have been used before by Hamas. The fact is that even though Hamas was not in the school building, they were within the UN compound, cynically using it and those there as shields. This is what UNWRA officials denied at first. They said NO terrorists were on UN grounds. AP quoted witnesses who stated there were mortar launchers firing from that UN compound.

That UNRWA lies is no big secret. They claimed 300-400 dead at Jenin originally too. No biggie, huh?

Peter Hansen, the commissioner-general of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) told a Danish newspaper, the Internatavisen Jyllands-Posten, on April 19, that 300-400 Palestinians had been killed in Jenin. He told CNN: "I had, first of all, hoped the horror stories coming out were exaggerations as you often hear in this part of the world, but they were all too true" (CNN, April 19, 2002).
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. read your own post
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 09:30 AM by shaayecanaan
"landing on the perimeter of a United Nations school in the Jabaliya refugee camp"

Israel's own account of the incident conceded that one of its rounds had hit the school (that is, the external wall). This was the round that hit the toilet block. I would say that that qualifies as a "hit on the perimeter", even if you wanted to maintain that the two rounds that fell just outside the school were not on the school perimeter.

You're trying to score a point and you're failing miserably, while completely ignoring the fact that Israel asserted several falsehoods in its own account, namely:-

a) that Hamas had fired from within the school
b) that the number of deaths was exaggerated

And to answer your question below, your selective outrage for perceived inaccuracies in the Palestinian account of the incident combined with your willful ignorance of flagrant inaccuracies in the Israeli account is what qualifies you as right wing.

Anything else you wanted me to sort out?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. read post #30
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 11:26 AM by shira
I assume you don't have reading comprehension problems. So after you read my post #30, please tell me if there's anything else you want sorted out?

As for Israel's statements, their soldiers were in a battle where gunfire/mortars are coming from some general direction "close" to the school. It's hardly a "lie" for them to claim what they did. Besides it makes no sense for them to deliberately lie about those 2 instances. How does deliberate lying possibly help their cause?

OTOH, you see the damage caused to Israel by UNWRA's deliberate lies and ommissions (or that of the media). There is a purpose to it and repurcussions that are harmful to Israel's war efforts. What they reported (both UNWRA and media) was either grossly incompetent or a deliberate lie. Either way, their credibility is shot because what they reported amounts to little more than pro-Hamas propaganda.

The same happened with Jenin 2002. It's not as if these "blunders" do not have major repurcussions.

At least the IDF has the 'excuse' of having its troops in a war zone, where emotions fly high in the heat of the moment. What is UNWRA and the media's excuse?

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Ah, now we're getting somewhere...
At least the IDF has the 'excuse' of having its troops in a war zone, where emotions fly high in the heat of the moment. What is UNWRA and the media's excuse?

Right. So the fact that IDF troops were in a war zone (weren't the UNRWA people in that same war zone?) excuses an IDF media spokesperson sitting at a computer in an air-conditioned office many miles from that war zone from filing a blatantly false report?

Does this work the other way? If Hamas had fired those rounds "in the heat of the moment", would you forgive them for advancing a false account of the incident as well?
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
64. You really shouldn't waste your time
Shira is one of the many posters here who believe that Arabs should be held to different, and much higher standards than Jews.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #40
65. are we getting somewhere? let's see, okay?
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 06:03 AM by shira
From http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1625

Israel’s foreign ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor stated on the day of the incident that Israel “know(s) for a fact that a Hamas squad was firing mortar shells from the immediate vicinity of the school, from the school grounds.” (CNN, Jan. 6, 2009) When questioned what he meant by vicinity, Palmor added that the mortar team was “right next to the wall.” The Israelis knew the exact location of the Hamas squad, but Palmor mistakenly placed them within the school grounds.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/07/israel.gaza.school/

Ging and Gunness continued to make public pronouncements that only helped perpetuate the misperception that Israel had shelled the school rather than clarifying that Israel had shelled a street near the school.

The Globe and Mail article points out the unusual flip-flop in the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reporting on the incident. The Globe and Mail cites “early reports” by the OCHA that “three artillery shells landed outside the UNRWA Jabalia Prep. C Girls School ...” but in the OCHA’s more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, the story changed claiming that “Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ...” (one of those schools being al-Fakhura school.)

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. So the the only thing that matters is that the UN was wrong
which it admitted but that doesn't count Lies all lies all lies is shriek and well the 41 civilians that were killed by the IDF in the strike we don't care the UN lied that's all that counts
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. what took the UN so long to correct this lie?
seems they lie a LOT about Israel, and not so much - if any - against Hamas.

This was a MAJOR story in the conflict and it took how many weeks to correct? After lots of anger , false condemnation, and anti-semitic acts worldwide and this SCHMUCK from the UN doesn't apologize for misleading, but puts the blame squarely on Israel? Do you know what chutzpah is? Shouldn't this guy be ashamed?

Of course you don't see the problem, however. Not surprising.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Let's see according to the OP
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 12:11 AM by azurnoir
this was admitted last week the school was hit January 14 so it took about 10 days but that's not fast enough for you so not a surprise and unfortunately for some it does not erase other major stories about this conflict but it will undoubtedly be used to attempt to discredit them and oh the guy from the UN doesn't apologize for Israel killing 41 civilians oh so sorry shouldn't Israel be ashamed?

I also find your assertion that this was the reason for antisemetic acts quite laughable and contrary to your own narrative it was only one of many things that Israel has to answer for but as i said will most certainly be knowingly used to try to distract from and everything else that happened
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. it's libel
it should have been cleared up and corrected within hours. This lie only serves to defame and demonize Israel. There were repurcussions to this lie. There's no way you or anyone else here, including me, would excuse something similar had Israel been the ones lying for 10 days and some other entity or persons were unfairly treated, condemned, etc.. as a result of such a lie.

The guy should be fired and the UN should waste no time apologizing and trying to make amends.



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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Read posts #7 and #14
but if its really libel gee I thought the buzz phrase was blood libel perhaps some should real quick give Rachel Neuwirth a call I hear she's really into that kind of thing
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. Account of Israeli attack on Gaza school doesn't hold up to scrutiny
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 01:05 AM by Scurrilous
<snip>

"News of the tragedy traveled fast, with aid workers and medical staff quoted as saying the incident happened at the school, the UNRWA facility where people had sought refuge.

Soon it was presented that people in the school compound had been killed. Before long, there was worldwide outrage.

Sensing a public-relations nightmare, Israeli spokespeople quickly asserted that their forces had only returned fire from gunmen inside the school. (They even named two militants.) It was a statement from which they would later retreat, saying there were gunmen in the vicinity of the school.

No witnesses said they saw any gunmen. (If people had seen anyone firing a mortar from the middle of the street outside the school, they likely would not have continued to mill around.)

John Ging, UNRWA's operations director in Gaza, acknowledged in an interview this week that all three Israeli mortar shells landed outside the school and that "no one was killed in the school."

"I told the Israelis that none of the shells landed in the school," he said.

Why would he do that?

"Because they had told everyone they had returned fire from gunmen in the school. That wasn't true."

Ging blames the Israelis for the confusion over where the victims were killed. "They even came out with a video that purported to show gunmen in the schoolyard. But we had seen it before," he said, "in 2007."

The Israelis are the ones, he said, who got everyone thinking the deaths occurred inside the school.

"Look at my statements," he said. "I never said anyone was killed in the school. Our officials never made any such allegation."

http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/40462



Death Toll Climbs in Israeli Strike Near U.N. School (January 6, 2009)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/middle_east/jan-june09/gaza_01-06.html

An Israeli artillery strike near a U.N.-run school in Gaza, where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge, killed at least 30 people on Tuesday, a U.N. official said, and stirred new concerns over civilian deaths in the conflict

<snip>

"John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency or UNRWA, told reporters at U.N. headquarters by video link from Gaza that three artillery shells landed near the school where 350 people were taking shelter, according to Reuters.

The latest figures in the aftermath of the attack were 30 dead and 55 injured, including at least five critically, Ging said. U.N. staff estimate around 15,000 people have fled to 23 U.N.-run schools, which have turned into makeshifts safety shelters.

An Israeli army spokeswoman told news agencies she was looking into information on the incident at al-Fakhora school in Jebaliya. Another Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the Associated Press that Palestinian militants fired on Israeli soldiers from the courtyard of the school, leading to the attack."
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Duckhunter935 Donating Member (777 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. What else might have been a lie? nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. How predictable LOL
except as the post above yours shows there was no lie well none from the UN that is
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. The IDF's initial account was a lie.
Israelis admit militants not in UN school

<snip>

"The UN said last night that the Israeli military had privately admitted that the shelling of a UN school in Jabaliya which killed more than 40 Palestinians on Tuesday was in response to militant fire from outside, not inside, the UN compound.

After the attack, the Israeli military said an initial inquiry had shown that several mortar shells had been fired at Israeli forces "from within the Jabaliya school" and that Israeli forces had returned fire.

However, a UN spokesman yesterday said the military had admitted that this account was no longer accurate. "In private briefings with diplomats the Israeli army has admitted that the militant fire from Jabaliya did not come from within a UN compound but outside and therefore allegations that this fire came from inside our compound are completely baseless," said Chris Gunness, spokesman for UNWRA.

Last night, the Israel Defence Force, stood by its initial account."The source of the fire was from within the school compound and that we returned fire and we have intelligence information that we hit the actual mortar firing squad that was firing at us," said Captain Benjamin Rutland, an Israeli military spokesman.

Earlier yesterday, John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for UNRWA, visited the school himself."I am very confident now that there was no militant activity inside the school nor militants in the school. If anybody has evidence to the contrary, then let's bring it forward."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/gaza-israelandthepalestinians1


"The source of the fire was from within the school compound and that we returned fire and we have intelligence information that we hit the actual mortar firing squad that was firing at us.."

Gee, how could people possibly get the idea that the Israeli shells landed inside the schoolyard?

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. There you have it...
the confusion seems to have arisen in large part because of the false account that was propagated by Israel.

Just like Ging said.

Funny that.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. And Ging remained silent while the UN filed a phony report
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 07:32 AM by shira
based on the IDF's reports?

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/ce9acc1cc8bc73ad8525753700596413!OpenDocument

Meanwhile the UN sat on its hands for how many weeks, and therefore helped Hamas and hurt Israel?

From Martin's article, quoting Ging:


"Look at my statements," he said. "I never said anyone was killed in the school. Our officials never made any such allegation."

Speaking from Shifa Hospital in Gaza City as the bodies were being brought in that night, an emotional Mr. Ging did say: "Those in the school were all families seeking refuge. ... There's nowhere safe in Gaza."

And in its daily bulletin, the World Health Organization reported: "On 6 January, 42 people were killed following an attack on a UNRWA school ..."

The UN's Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs got the location right, for a short while. Its daily bulletin cited "early reports" that "three artillery shells landed outside the UNRWA Jabalia Prep. C Girls School ..." However, its more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, stated that "Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ..." including the one at issue.

Such official wording helps explain the widespread news reports of the deaths in the school, but not why the UN agencies allowed the misconception to linger.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Perhaps an analogy might help you understand...
Lets say Hamas fired a series of rockets at a house in Sderot. One of the rockets strikes a wall of the house, killing three people who had just walked out the front door. The other two rockets fall just outside the house killing several of its inhabitants who had ventured outside.

Would a news organisation be entitled to report that: "eight people died today in a Hamas rocket attack that struck a house in Sderot?"
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Anything?
No of course not, just lame faux-outrage from the right.

Probably time for you to pick up your ball and run home.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. did you miss post #30?
Read it very carefully.

This has happened before, like Jenin 2002. Outrageous claims made by pro-Hamas or pro-Fatah people, unverified, bad witnesses, swallowed in whole by media and certain NGO's, whipped up fury and frenzy worldwide. Once the truth comes out, the damage is already done - Israel is considered guilty of all charged on the lamest of evidence - no one (especially the wild eyed accusers) are aware of, or wish to consider, the facts.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. This isnt Jenin
and in this case, the more outrageous claims seem to have been made by Israel.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
48. again, why would Israel deliberately lie?
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:49 AM by shira
what purpose would that serve? Whether their troops were fired upon "near" or "in" the school makes little difference to the soldiers targetted. OTOH, this deliberate lie against Israel serves multiple purposes - with repurcussions resulting in the rage we've seen worldwide, with help from the media.

The fact is the MEDIA, aid workers, medical staff, AND - read very slowly - the UN report - all claimed the Israeli shelling directly hit 2 schools.

It's in post #30. Here's part of the article...

However, its (UNWRA's) more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, stated that "Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ..." including the one at issue.

Gee, how'd that happen? Are the zionist Elders writing UNWRA reports now - against the IDF?

Funny that.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Why wouldn't they?
Do you regard Jews as inherently more honest than Arabs?

Whether their troops were fired upon "near" or "in" the school makes little difference to the soldiers targetted.

It makes little difference to the 40 dead people, too.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. And there it is...
"Do you regard Jews as inherently more honest than Arabs?"
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. And there what is? n/t
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
9. Maybe Isreal should have allowed journalist into Gaza
then this might not have been a problem. Except for all dead people.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Israel itself admits that one of the three rounds struck the school...
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 02:22 AM by shaayecanaan
one of the rounds struck the external wall of the school toilets. Three people who had been sheltering at the school and who had just emerged from the toilets were killed.

The impact hole from the round that struck the wall can be seen clearly in this clip from CNN:-

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/07/sweeney.gaza.school.debate.cnn

What Ging actually said was:-

"I told the Israelis that none of the shells landed in the school," he said.

Why would he do that?

"Because they had told everyone they had returned fire from gunmen in the school. That wasn't true."


He did say that one of rounds had hit the external wall of the school toilets, which is not inconsistent with the rounds not landing in the school.

Nevertheless, it is significant that the right-wing types on this board have managed to fuck up their own hit piece. Well done.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. right wing types?
I've heard this before, here's how it goes.

You defend Israel, you must be a Jew.

or

You defend Israel, you must be rightwing.


Pa.the.tic.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Not "you defend Israel, you must be rightwing"
You defend the Gaza War, you must be right wing.

You defend collective punishment of Gazans, you must be right wing

There's a huge difference between those two statements and the assertion you claim others make.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. ridiculous
94% of Jewish Israelis defended the Gaza war. That means some 40-60% of progressive, liberal Israelis supported it.

But maybe the average liberal, progressive Israeli is too "rightwing"?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. The Israelis have at least the small excuse that they've not been shown
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 06:53 PM by Ken Burch
the damage done in Gaza, thanks to censorship imposed by the Israeli government.

Clearly it's impossible to think that Operation Cast Lead can actually lead to a peace settlement.

It's brought Hamas back from the political graveyard. Before the invasion, Hamas' support was declining. Now Gazans and other Palestinians are "rallying 'round the flag", as everyone in the Israeli government KNEW would happen.

The war hasn't made anything better. It's simply made any hopes of ending the long-standing conflict shrink.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. laughable
Isarelis haven't been shown the damage....even if the media is censoring, they're too dumb to get this info. themselves? They're dupes? Like I wrote, maybe those progressive Israelis just aren't like liberal non-Israelis. They're kinda retarded.

:eyes:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
54. Cut the crap. No-one's said 'you defend Israel, you must be a Jew'
And no-one's said you defend Israel, you must be rightwing. Apart from the fact that whatever it is you think yr blinded defence of everything Israel does achieves, it's certainly not *defending* Israel. And treating the conflict like yr a knight in shining armour out to *defend* Israel is abjectly silly and immature. As there's quite a few posters here (yr not one of them, btw) who do view themselves as 'pro-Israel' and aren't seen by other posters as supporting or defending rightwing or conservative type attitudes and who don't defend or condone the killing of so many innocent Palestinian civilians recently, you've never seen that second claim of yrs here at DU either, because when people point out yr views are rather conservative, they're talking about *you*, not stereotyping all pro-Israeli types the way you stereotype pro-Palestinians..

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Welcome back
:hi:
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. So what really happened?
They fired at what they believed was an enemy position outside the school and there were unintentional deaths.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Basically...
there were about a thousand people sheltering at the UNRWA-run al-Fakhura school. Probably due to the large amount of people in the school, there were many spilling outside the doors and into the street. Israel claimed that it received fire from inside the school, then retreated from that claim. It then claimed to have received mortar fire from "the immediate vicinity of the school" although the UN asserts that in private Israel has conceded that allegation is false as well. The IDF claimed that Hamas' was firing mortars literally with their backs to the wall of the school, which means that if true, they would have firing mortars from the middle of the crowd.

None of the deaths took place within the school building, although 3 of the deaths were people who had just stepped outside the school toilets. The others seem to have been in the street outside the front of the school. Many of them were people who had been sheltering at the school, but had not been inside the school grounds at the time.

As the Globe and Mail piece explains, it is unlikely that people would have hung around in the street if there was mortars being fired from that location.

Israel later claimed that the Palestinian claim of 42 deaths was exaggerated, although that count has been substantiated.

Essentially, the Israeli account (that Hamas was firing from the school, that 42 deaths were too many) has been shown to be false. John Ging, for his part, never stated that the rounds struck inside the school, but that view is being attributed to him nevertheless. He has repeatedly sought an independent inquiry on the incident. Israel has not been receptive to that proposal.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. IDF claimed there was mortar fire coming from the immediate area and returned fire
There were claims by Ging and others that the counter fire hit the school. Turns out the IDF rounds never hit the school despite those claims. Ban Ki Moon took that and started beating Israel in the media. The claims of war crimes there and elsewhere started to snowball.

The IDF is not blameless here. Its not clear if they had eyes on the target to know exactly where the firing was coming from. Firefinder RADAR is only so accurate. They also changed their story as to where they thought they fired a few times. They have not changed the basis for the attack, that mortar shells were coming from that location.

Currently the facts seem to be that IDF artillery targeted an area near a UN school, but did not hit it. 47 people were killed. Location of the mortar team has not been proven, though the IDF is sticking to its story that there was mortar fire coming from the location.

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. Israel National News is unreliable - is this reported anywhere else?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. It's been around for a couple days, I think I saw one here from JPost.
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 09:12 AM by bemildred
I don't think I've seen this particular argument in non-Israeli news sources, though I expect it would be easy enough to find it in the blogosphere. Hair-splitting of a high order. Just enough truth in it to throw up a makeshift defense with. One has to wonder if the original use of the year old video was done with the idea of eventually using the mis-perception that created in this way. Maybe that is expecting too much.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. More to the point-and for those who may not know this:
"Israel National News" is the official online organ of the Arutz Sheva right wing settler movement. These are the people who still think the Gaza settlements should have been left in place, who want MORE West Bank settlements, and have made it clear that they are against any real peace agreement. They're the "In Blood And Fire Judea Was Born" crowd, and they're despised by most Israelis, from what I've heard.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. The original piece is from the Globe and Mail
I suspect the reason that the original piece was not posted was because it was much more even-handed than the right-wing revisions of it which have surfaced here.

The Globe and Mail piece is here:-

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090129.wgazaschool29/BNStory/International/home
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Thanks.
Personally, I tend to take all atrocity reports from either side in a war zone with a grain of salt unless there is absolute proof. Truth is indeed usually the first casualty in war.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. from the article, let's read
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 11:15 AM by shira
"News of the tragedy travelled fast, with aid workers and medical staff quoted as saying the incident happened at the school, the UNRWA facility where people had sought refuge.

Soon it was presented that people in the school compound had been killed. Before long, there was worldwide outrage."


=========================

Bad reporting from journalists or false report from UNWRA, or both? You make the call.

And why'd it take until after the war to get the story straight? Why not right away?

And then there's this:


"Look at my statements," he said. "I never said anyone was killed in the school. Our officials never made any such allegation."

Speaking from Shifa Hospital in Gaza City as the bodies were being brought in that night, an emotional Mr. Ging did say: "Those in the school were all families seeking refuge. ... There's nowhere safe in Gaza."

However, its (UNWRA's) more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, stated that "Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ..." including the one at issue.


=========================

So, were Ging's statements ALSO misunderstood by UNWRA in their report, as well as by journalists?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. Published 3 days later but written when can you give us a date?
Edited on Sun Feb-01-09 09:47 PM by azurnoir
but believe what need to or want to but once you actually grow up you'll find that initial war reports from any war are rarely accurate but for some reason it is only in this conflict that when corrections are made one side jumps up and down and shrieks lies
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Its reliability is mixed. It is Certainly better than EI or A;l-Aharam
And its tends not to make stuff up which the other two I mentioned do. I have no problems using it when the details are verifiable as this one was. There have been other accounts of this in other papers. Its Op-Ed stuff is another story.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
34. lol, the things people say in the heat of the moment...while looking down a gun barrel
still waiting for Gaza hospitals to reveal the official death toll records to journalists . Well, journalsts brave enough to press them for truthfull answers
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. Go back and find his intial remarks and get back to me.
What did he say?

This is just more of the same trying to discredit the UN. Good luck!
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. So one out of 5 UN schools weren't hit? Great success
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. What this does is put Ging and the UN in a more skeptical light
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Not really, as other posters have pointed out
There are conflicting reports of this particular incident, with no cohesive report being issued. I heard 4 different tales about this school, and am skeptical of all of them at the moment. It really is meaningless, ultimately. The U.N. has plenty of buildings that were hit that need to be rebuilt, and that need a full explanation from Israeli forces as to why they were hit, given that they knew the exact coordinates of all UN-affiliated buildings.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. all these false, bogus claims seem to be against Israel
not Hamas or, when they were in charge, Fatah. This is the problem. Hamas has learned they can claim anything, the media and NGO's will run with it, there will be outrage - and who cares if it's bogus and retracted later - no one really cares by that time and the damage is done.

This does not happen AGAINST the PA. Media and NGO's tend to be far more careful to the point of minimizing or ignoring violence against fellow Palestinians or attacks on Israel, hate media, etc.

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Again see posts # 7and #14
the "explanations are there but not the ones you are trying to promote the only future skepticism is Israels claims of hitting pinpoint targets due to intelligence
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. posts #7 and #14 do nothing to explain the UN's own report about Israel
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:54 AM by shira
directly hitting their school. Are the Elders of Zion writing UNWRA reports now to defame the IDF?

"However, its (UNWRA's) more comprehensive weekly report, published three days later, stated that "Israeli shelling directly hit two UNRWA schools ..." including the one at issue.

Of course, this is all wasted on you. Millions still think there was a Jenin "massacre" that the media and NGO's reported based on "eyewitness" accounts that were later proven false (not as many people know this). The UN even admitted there was no "massacre". But google it, why don't you? The damage is done. And the perpetrators of this false report just know that people like yourself and other radicals will eat this shit up.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. Quote of the day: 'Are the Elders of Zion writing UNWRA reports now to defame the IDF?'
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 06:49 AM by Violet_Crumble
Yeah, coz like after killing so many civilians any NGO or organisation that dares to be critical of the glorious and wonderfully nation-building bombing of Gaza that led unfortunately to a few (of course Palestinians always lie and it's more than likely only two civilians died and deliberate miscounting happened) stray deaths which of course are totally and utterly the fault of anyone but Israel, but preferably Arab, is of course a bunch of damn antisemites! Gosh, why are these words of wisdom from Shira wasted on the masses? How many millions of times do the Elders of Zion have to be referenced and referenced again in posts to get people taking this stuff seriously????
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I gotta admit that's better than "the war lovers are all in bed together under the table".
I'm completely outclassed.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Hi Violet.
:hi:
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. honesty, objectivity, integrity, and accuracy
they're the least we can expect from such 'respectable' orgs like UNRWA, right?

well, maybe not.







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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. Why don't I Google it?
Why because dear Shira I already have and posted the information that any stories of a massacre were quite quickly retracted a post that Shakti had to answer for you if I remember clearly that's why and as far as your bolded but 3 days later ...... all of this happened while the conflict was on going and initial reports are not always accurate.

And oh yeah the very recent edit of the wiki page has been noted
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. what was clearly established about Jenin following an intensive investigation


link to full detailed report:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79081/section/1

II. Summary


On April 3, 2002, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) launched a major military operation in the Jenin refugee camp, home to some fourteen thousand Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them civilians. The Israelis' expressed aim was to capture or kill Palestinian militants responsible for suicide bombings and other attacks that have killed more than seventy Israeli and other civilians since March 2002. The IDF military incursion into the Jenin refugee camp was carried out on an unprecedented scale compared to other military operations mounted by the IDF since the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict began in September 2000.

The presence of armed Palestinian militants inside Jenin refugee camp, and the preparations made by those armed Palestinian militants in anticipation of the IDF incursion, does not detract from the IDF's obligation under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid harm to civilians. Israel also has a legal duty to ensure that its attacks on legitimate military targets did not cause disproportionate harm to civilians. Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes.

Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Civilian residents of the camp described days of sustained missile fire from helicopters hitting their houses. Some residents were forced to flee from house to house seeking shelter, while others were trapped by the fighting, unable to escape to safety, and were threatened by a curfew that the IDF enforced with lethal force, using sniper fire. Human Rights Watch documented instances in which soldiers converted civilian houses into military positions, and confined the inhabitants to a single room. In other instances, civilians who attempted to flee were expressly told by IDF soldiers that they should return to their homes.

Despite these close quarters, the IDF had a legal duty to distinguish civilians from military targets. At times, however, IDF military attacks were indiscriminate, failing to make this distinction. Firing was particularly indiscriminate on the morning of April 6, when missiles were launched from helicopters, catching many sleeping civilians unaware. One woman was killed by helicopter fire during that attack; a four-year-old child in another part of the town was injured when a missile hit the house where she was sleeping. Both were buildings housing only civilians, with no fighters in the immediate vicinity.
The IDF used armored bulldozers to demolish residents' homes. The apparent purpose was to clear paths through Jenin's narrow and winding alleys to enable their tanks and other heavy weaponry to penetrate the camp interior, particularly since some of these had evidently been booby-trapped. However, particularly in the Hawashin district, the destruction extended well beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighters, and was vastly disproportionate to the military objectives pursued. The damage to Jenin camp by missile and tank fire and bulldozer destruction has shocked many observers. At least 140 buildings-most of them multi-family dwellings-were completely destroyed in the camp, and severe damage caused to more than 200 others has rendered them uninhabitable or unsafe. An estimated 4,000 people, more than a quarter of the population of the camp, were rendered homeless because of this destruction. Serious damage was also done to the water, sewage and electrical infrastructure of the camp. More than one hundred of the 140 completely destroyed buildings were in Hawashin district. In contrast to other parts of the camp where bulldozers were used to widen streets, the IDF razed the entire Hawashin district, where on April 9 thirteen IDF soldiers were killed in an ambush by Palestinian militants. Establishing whether this extensive destruction so exceeded military necessity as to constitute wanton destruction-or a war crime-should be one of the highest priorities for the United Nations fact-finding mission.

The harm from this destruction was aggravated by the inadequate warning given to civilian residents. Although warnings were issued on multiple occasions by the IDF, many civilians only learned of the risk as bulldozers began to crush their houses. Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year-old paralyzed man, was killed when the IDF bulldozed his home on top of him, refusing to allow his relatives the time to remove him from the home. Sixty-five-year-old Muhammad Abu Saba'a had to plead with an IDF bulldozer operator to stop demolishing his home while his family remained inside; when he returned to his half-demolished home, he was shot dead by an Israeli soldier.

Human Rights Watch has confirmed that at least fifty-two Palestinians were killed as a result of IDF operations in Jenin. This figure may rise as rescue and investigative work proceeds, and as family members detained by Israel are located or released. Due to the low number of people reported missing, Human Rights Watch does not expect this figure to increase substantially. At least twenty-two of those confirmed dead were civilians, including children, physically disabled, and elderly people. At least twenty-seven of those confirmed dead were suspected to have been armed Palestinians belonging to movements such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades. Some were members of the Palestinian Authority's (PA) National Security Forces or other branches of the PA police and security forces. Human Rights watch was unable to determine conclusively the status of the remaining three killed, among the cases documented.

Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law. Among the civilian deaths were those of Kamal Zgheir, a fifty-seven-year-old wheelchair-bound man who was shot and run over by a tank on a major road outside the camp on April 10, even though he had a white flag attached to his wheelchair; fifty-eight year old Mariam Wishahi, killed by a missile in her home on April 6 just hours after her unarmed son was shot in the street; Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year old paralyzed man who was crushed in the rubble of his home on April 7 despite his family's pleas to be allowed to remove him; and fourteen-year-old Faris Zaiban, who was killed by fire from an IDF armored car as he went to buy groceries when the IDF-imposed curfew was temporarily lifted on April 11.

Some of the cases documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to summary executions, a clear war crime, such as the shooting of Jamal al-Sabbagh on April 6. Al-Sabbagh was shot to death while directly under the control of the IDF: he was obeying orders to strip off his clothes. In at least one case, IDF soldiers unlawfully killed a wounded Palestinian, Munthir al-Haj, who was no longer carrying a weapon, his arms were reportedly broken, and he was taking no active part in the fighting.
Throughout the incursion, IDF soldiers used Palestinian civilians to protect them from danger, deploying them as "human shields" and forcing them to perform dangerous work. Human Rights Watch received many separate and credible testimonies that Palestinians were placed in vulnerable positions to protect IDF soldiers from gunfire or attack. IDF soldiers forced these Palestinians to stand for extended periods in front of exposed IDF positions, or made them accompany the soldiers as they moved from house to house. Kamal Tawalbi, the father of fourteen children, described how soldiers kept him and his fourteen-year-old son for three hours in the line of fire, using his and his son's shoulders to rest their rifles as they fired. IDF soldiers forced a sixty-five-year-old woman was forced to stand on a rooftop in front of an IDF position in the middle of a helicopter battle.

As in prior IDF operations, soldiers forced Palestinians, sometimes at gunpoint, to accompany IDF troops during their searches of homes, to enter homes, to open doors, and to perform other potentially dangerous tasks. In Jenin, such coerced use of civilians was a widespread practice; in virtually every case in which IDF soldiers entered civilian homes, residents told Human Rights Watch that IDF soldiers were accompanied by Palestinian civilians who were participating under duress. The forceduse of civilians during military operations is a serious violation of the laws of war, as it exposes civilians to direct risk of death or serious injury.

Human Rights Watch has so far found no evidence that Palestinian gunmen forced Palestinian civilians to serve as human shields during the attack. But Palestinian gunmen did endanger Palestinian civilians in the camp by using it as a base for planning and launching attacks, using indiscriminate tactics such as planting improvised explosive devices within the camp, and intermingling with the civilian population during armed conflict, and, in some cases, to avoid apprehension by Israeli forces.

During "Operation Defensive Shield," the IDF blocked the passage of emergency medical vehicles and personnel to Jenin refugee camp for eleven days, from April 4 to April 15. During this period, injured combatants and civilians in the camp as well as the sick had no access to emergency medical treatment. The functioning of ambulances and hospitals in Jenin city was severely circumscribed, and ambulances were repeatedly fired upon by IDF soldiers. Farwa Jammal, a uniformed nurse, was killed by IDF fire while treating an injured civilian. In at least two cases, injured civilians died without access to medical treatment. Direct attacks on medical personnel and the denial of access to medical care for the wounded constitute serious violations of the laws of war.
During the period that the IDF directly controlled Jenin camp, the Israeli authorities were obliged under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to protect camp civilians from the dangers arising from hostilities, and to ensure to the maximum extent possible under the circumstances that the civilian population had access to food and medical supplies. In practice, however, the IDF prevented humanitarian organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, from gaining access to the camp and its civilian inhabitants-despite the great humanitarian need. This blockage continued from April 11 to 15, after the majority of armed Palestinians had surrendered. Human Rights Watch investigated and found no evidence to sustain reports that the IDF had removed bodies from the refugee camp for burial in mass graves.
Every case listed in the report below warrants additional thorough, transparent, and impartial investigation, with the results of such an investigation made public. Where wrongdoing is found, those responsible should be held accountable. There is a strong prima facie evidence that, in the cases noted below, IDF personnel committed grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, or war crimes. Such cases warrant specific criminal investigations with a view to ascertaining and prosecuting those responsible. Israel has the primary obligation to carry out such investigations, but the international community also has a responsibility to ensure that these investigations take place.

link to full HRW report:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79081/section/1



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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
43. No mention of the "rocket science" happening on school grounds entered the conversation yet.....hmmm
Any UN folks witness any after school science lab work going on at these sites?

Guess nobody thought to ask them .
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
62. UNRWA and Hamas are joined as one in disinformation tactics
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