IDF: World duped by Hamas's false civilian death toll figures

[oberliner]

Basing its work on the official Palestinian death toll of 1,338, Levi said the CLA had now identified more than 1,200 of the Palestinian fatalities. Its 200-page report lists their names, their official Palestinian Authority identity numbers, the circumstances in which they were killed and, where appropriate, the terrorist group with which they were affiliated.

The CLA said 580 of these 1,200 had been conclusively "incriminated" as members of Hamas and other terrorist groups.

Another 300 of the 1,200 - women, children aged 15 and younger and men over the age of 65 - had been categorized as noncombatants, the CLA said.

Counted among the women, however, were female terrorists, including at least two women who tried to blow themselves up next to forces from the Givati and Paratroopers' Brigades. Also classed as noncombatants were the wives and children of Nizar Rayyan, a Hamas military commander who refused to allow his family to leave his home even after he was warned by Israel that it would be bombed.

The 320 names yet to be classified are all men; the IDF has yet complete its identification work in these cases, but estimates that two-thirds of them were terror operatives.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304788684&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[EFerrari]

1. I can't believe you are posting this here or any where.

This is the most chilling indictment of the Israeli government I have ever seen and I wish I hadn't seen it at all.

[oberliner]

2. Wow - that is an intense response

Not sure what makes this article particularly different from any of the other comments from the IDF on the casualty count from the invasion that have been posted and discussed here.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Personally I think all the IDF's attempts to minimise or negate civilian casualties is disgusting n/

[oberliner]

6. In spite of this digust, however, do you not agree that incorrect info ought to be corrected?

For instance, if, in fact, the number of casualties reported in the Jabalya incident described in the article is much less than was initially claimed - is it not important to correct that record?

[Violet_Crumble]

8. And what gives you any confidence that the IDF are honest in these matters?

And I'm curious to know whether you hold the same interest in death tolls anywhere else in the world?

[oberliner]

9. Well I've been trying to figure out what the hell is going on in Sri Lanka

The Sri Lankan government and the LTTE seem to have similarly disparate versions of reality to the players in the I/P conflict.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. And do you have any confidence in the IDF when it comes to honesty on this sort of thing?

Don't you think they've got a vested interest in things?

[oberliner]

11. Their evidence would have to be pretty convincing

Certainly they have a vested interest, but I think they have the right (and duty) to present their case.

[Jim Sagle]

33. Same to you, vi. I've never seen a post of yours ANYWHERE but I/P.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. I can't help it if you never look at any other forum

there's quite a few other forums here at du I post at, not that it's really any of yr business

[Jim Sagle]

42. Sure.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Go on, try venturing into some other forums

then you might gain the appearance of knowing what yr talking about when you start to get all worried about where other duers post.

[Jim Sagle]

46. That's where I mostly am...other forums.

Which you'd know if you were actually there.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

31. So any effort to tell the truth is disgustng? Wow.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. that's not what I said. Go back and read it again n/t

[EFerrari]

45. You're right. The reaction was visceral.

It would have been the same no matter the outlet.

The people who wrote this are trying to minimize death for PR purposes. That's more than I can handle.

[oberliner]

47. The truth is important

I think many actors are playing with the numbers for PR purposes.

Transparency would be a very good thing. The IDF and Hamas should both present their findings to a neutral third party who can determine the truth of the situation.

[EFerrari]

48. I agree with that. What happened matters. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

3. What's yr opinion of the IDF claim, Oberliner?

And what do you think of the IDF's tactic of categorising any male between the ages of 15 and 65 as a combatant?

[oberliner]

5. Well I would like to read the report and see what evidence they have for their claims

Also, the article says they are estimating that around 2/3rds of those males you mentioned are potentially to be classified as combatants.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. From what was in the article, it seems a bit of a waste...

Does the Red Cross or any other reputable group (which the IDF isn't) collate statistics? Seems to me if someone was interested in this sort of thing, that it'd make more sense to look to a reputable group like the Red Cross or something like that rather than the group that carried out the killing...

[GoesTo11]

23. They say 580 names "conclusively incriminated" as members of Hamas

And then of 300+ or so other males over age 15, 2/3 are estimated to be combatants. I suppose that the credibility of that number would depend on the circumstances of those deaths, and the profiles of the men.

[oberliner]

26. Do you know if the report is available to the general public?

From the article, one gets the impression that it is not.

[GoesTo11]

27. I would be very surprised

The names they have and the nature their relationships to Hamas have are probably obtained and verified through sources who are likely to be killed by Hamas if they can be identified.

[GoesTo11]

22. interesting take on the school incident.

"As an example of such distortion, he cited the incident near a UN school in Jabalya on January 6, in which initial Palestinian reports falsely claimed IDF shells had hit the school and killed 40 or more people, many of them civilians. In fact, he said, 12 Palestinians were killed in the incident - nine Hamas operatives and three noncombatants. Furthermore, as had since been acknowledged by the UN, the IDF was returning fire after coming under attack, and its shells did not hit the school compound. "From the beginning, Hamas claimed that 42 people were killed, but we could see from our surveillance that only a few stretchers were brought in to evacuate people," said Levi, adding that the CLA contacted the PA Health Ministry and asked for the names of the dead. "We were told that Hamas was hiding the number of dead."


Is there any credible evidence either confirming or disconfirming this?

[Chulanowa]

12. Wait a minute...

The IDF is telling us every single man between the ages of 15 and 65 that were killed... was an "evildoer," with maybe an exception of 106 of them?

Ann Coulter tells us everyone facing the McCarthy Trials really was a communist spy. MacNamara informed us that all the dead Vietnamese were VC operatives and of course we never went into Cambodia. The official civilian death toll for Iraq remains at zero. Turkey insists that the Armenians were all safe and sound in 1915. The IDF tells us all the dudes it kills are terrorists.

At least they stopped trying to tell us "only" eight hundred people were killed, I guess.

[oberliner]

13. They have always estimated the casualty count at around 1,200

Both the Israeli and Hamas estimates for how many "militants" were killed seem to leave something to be desired.

[shira]

14. clearly, we should rely on Hamas propaganda, not question it,

and ignore anything the IDF reports, regardless of the evidence.

:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

16. That's not what Oberliner nor anyone else here was saying...

You really should quit attributing things to other posters that they don't believe...

[Chulanowa]

54. They're both lying

It's just a question of which one is lying more.

WHich brand of propaganda do you prefer? Baghdad Bob™ or British in Basra™?

[Chulanowa]

15. I think that given the methods we see here...

Where everyone capable of maintaining a meaningful erection is counted as "terrorist", I am inclined to think that the Hamas count may be the more reliable of the two. This is strengthened by the fact that really, Hamas is the only organization that really knows who is part of it and who isn't, and while they may want to massage the number of civilians dead, they also have this thing for martyrs.

And when you get labeled as a "militant" simply for trying to protect yourself or your neighbors (or in the case of all the police and the bulk of milita members killed, your countrymen) against an invading force... Well, that's going to skew the numbers a bit, too. it's what the US does in Iraq, I can't imagine Israel does things terribly differently there.

[oberliner]

17. Certainly you can see why Hamas might be motivated to fudge the stats as well

It definitely is better PR for Hamas to suggest that the vast majority of those killed in Gaza were civilians. Just as it is better PR for Israel to suggest the opposite.

[Chulanowa]

18. it's also in Hamas' favor to maintain a solid number of Hamas "Martyrs"

After all, if the number of Hamas dead is tiny and the number of civilian dead very large, the Gazans are going to start asking where the hell Hamas was in the invasion, why Hamas tucked tail and hid and let everyone else eat bullets.

Hamas is a guerrilla organization. it is dependent on hte goodwill of the people around it. if those people get the impression that Hamas is throwing them under the bulldozer and running, well, that's a bad thing for Hamas.

The two conflicting needs for Hamas' propaganda - a need for a sizable number of civilian dead for outrage purposes and a sizable number of Hamas dead to defend Hamas' good reputation - will result in more accurate numbers of both than the IDF's propaganda, which simply wants to say everyone deserved to die. At least, so long as both are using the same base amount of dead.

[oberliner]

19. Don't know if I agree with that

I think they like to say that they defeated the Israelis in a humiliating fashion. That their fighters were barely touched. That cowardly Israel attacked innocent civilians instead of the brave Hamas resistance fighters. And on and on.

The PCHR estimates that the number of Hamas militants killed is at least five times higher than what Hamas has claimed.

[Chulanowa]

20. That's because the PCHR is also equalling penises with terrorism

And lumping police with "militants"

And no. While Hezbollah might be big enough and actually capable enough to make that sort of claim about itself, Hamas is tiny in comparison and, as I've been banging for weeks now, shoot like imperial stormtroopers.

[oberliner]

21. No they aren't

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza does not "equal penises with terrorism" - I have no idea where you get that from.

They identify approximately 500 adult men as being civilian casualties in their count.

[Chulanowa]

36. Ah, then they must have updated it

Good.

[azurnoir]

28. They also claim medics as militants

but PCHR nay well be more accurate

While the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, whose death toll figures have been widely cited, reports that 895 Gaza civilians were killed in the fighting, amounting to more than two-thirds of all fatalities, the IDF figures shown to the Post on Sunday put the civilian death toll at no higher than a third of the total.

Are these the figures being claimed as "Hamas propaganda"? PCHR is Hamas too? Also IDF lowers the total count by about 130+Personally I would go by ICRC's count or UNRWA's but oops that later one is also counted as "Hamas" at least by some

[GoesTo11]

29. IDF doesn't seem to dispute the total count.

"Basing its work on the official Palestinian death toll of 1,338, Levi said the CLA had now identified more than 1,200 of the Palestinian fatalities. Its 200-page report lists their names, their official Palestinian Authority identity numbers, the circumstances in which they were killed and, where appropriate, the terrorist group with which they were affiliated."

[oberliner]

30. Where does PCHR claim medics as militants?

What are you talking about?

[azurnoir]

51. No IDF claims medics as militants

or "Hamas operatives"

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chulanowa]

35. Not a bad idea...

I suppose we could figure out the total number of Jewish deaths by counting how many Christian and Muslim children aren't killed to make matzos, too?

:eyes:

What a stupid thing to say, GoesTo11. Informative about your character as a person, but stupid.

[Alamuti Lotus]

56. can we swap blood libel stories too? same mindset as you, but from an older time

The racist propaganda on display is a bit stuck on overload, please adjust your mask....

[Jim Sagle]

32. 'the Hamas count may be the more reliable of the two'

Haw haw haw!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Chulanowa]

34. Is there any particular reason you replied?

[hack89]

25. 320 men have yet to be classified according to the OP nt

[Chulanowa]

37. I know

I even mention it in my post. The IDF is saying they expect that maybe a third of those men weren't Hamas "villains". 106 men, out of how many? Might as well be all.

[hack89]

40. Well, if we take Hamas at their word that their valiant fighters

bravely went forward to battle the Israeli aggressors, why wouldn't a high percentage of military aged men be Hamas fighters?

Hamas does have an organized military force after all.

[Chulanowa]

41. I've just noticed...

That all of us, myself included, are sitting here trying to winnow the Hamas deaths from the "other" deaths. As if Israel is justified in invading Gaza and killing several hundred members of Hamas. As if the Hamas men who shot back at the invading force deserved to die, and that only those men and women who don't wear the Hamas label are actual losses.

Upon reflection, that's pretty fucking ridiculous. Especially since all of us express regret at the deaths of 21 Israeli soldiers in that invading force!

At any rate, I'm not going to fully believe either team's body count. I will be more inclined to go with Hamas', or better yet, a totally independent organization's, before I go with the aggressor's kill counts.

[hack89]

43. Hamas is not an innocent party here

they provoked a war - so yes their fighters were just deserving of death as the IDF soldiers. A soldier is a soldier.

[Idealism]

50. Thank God you don't control a military!

Somebody cuts you off on the Quonset Freeway, the next day Providence is wiped off the map!

[hack89]

65. Sounds like you are familiar with Rhode Island drivers! nt

[Chulanowa]

53. Even for the I/P forum, that's a dumb statement

I'm tired of explaining the leadup to the Gaza invasion to people. Maybe someone else will take that one up, but really, the constant stream of rampant ignorance is starting to make my head hurt.

Instead, I'm just going to inform you that I don't believe any soldiers "deserve" to die. That's fucking asinine. But thanks for your contribution.

[oberliner]

58. Well nobody deserves to die and there should never be any wars

Still, there is a difference between a civilian casualty and a non-civilian casualty.

[Chulanowa]

68. And there's a differenbce between an offense casualty and a defense casualty

All 1,359 deaths from this thing could have been avoided very easily

[hack89]

64. If you need to believe that Hamas is all sweetness and light

in order to maintain your black and white view of the world, go ahead. You remind me so much of the truthers over in the 911 forum or the Chavista's defending a country's slide into despotism - as long as you hate the right group or person the facts count for little.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. Uh, what gives you the impression they need to believe Hamas is all sweetness and light?

There's nothing in their posts to suggest that. In fact, they've said in this thread that they think both Hamas and the IDF are lying.

[Chulanowa]

69. You really don't have much space to try to talk about facts after these two posts

Between your cluelessness about the start of "Operation Cast Lead," your assertion that soldiers deserve to die, your need to pretend I've said something I didn't, and to top it all off, ignorance about Venezuela, you really shouldn't sully the word "fact" by speaking it.

[Alamuti Lotus]

55. Perhaps so, in the style of the best holocaust deniers (an oxymoran, to be sure)

"You become what you hate the most"...

[oberliner]

57. That is ridiculous

Holocaust deniers? Jeez.

The IDF has a responsibility to try to identify how many civilians were killed in the conflict.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Shame it doesn't worry about avoiding killing civilians in the first place n/t

[oberliner]

60. I think that is part of what they are arguing by making this claim

If the civilian count was significantly lower in Gaza than in other conflict situations, then that supports the IDF claim that they do attempt to avoid killing civilians to some extent.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. That's definately the motivation for it n/t

[Chulanowa]

71. Too bad it contradicts so many other IDF claims, yes?

Such as the whole "We only kill lots of civilians because Hamas uses them as human shields" argument.

I guess someone finally informed them that it's illegal to blow up a bunch of civilians just to get at an enemy fighter.

But hey, one point in the IDF's favor - they're willing to count how many people they've killed. It's more than we can say about US operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. ....

:eyes:

ETA: You confusing Hamas and the IDF again?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Oberliner and I were talking about the IDF n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Sorry, I forgot this was your board.

:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

72. huh? How on earth did you ccome up with that?

you appeared a bit confused as to whether it was the idf or Hamas being discussed, so I clarified that oberliner and I were discussing the idf.

[shira]

67. quote of the day

so you see no evidence of the IDF trying to avoid killing civilians?

[Violet_Crumble]

73. There was little care taken on the idfs part

trotting out the excuse that militants were in homes etc isn't an excuse at all. And using white phosphorous in built up areas is just another example of the lack of care taken.

[shira]

75. if it turns out the IDF report is accurate and 1/3 of those killed

were civilians, doesn't that show, given the circumstances, that the IDF took great care distinguishing between civilians and combatants?

[Howardx]

74. haha you gotta love the onion! n/t