Israel's Peculiar Position

[ForestsBeatBushes]

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it, Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchmen. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese -- and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab.

There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Asia or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews, no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who were ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we did in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general.

I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.


By Eric Hoffer (1902-1983)

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[The Magistrate]

3. In Fact, Sir

Just about every nation maintaining diplomatic relations with Turkey does so, officially. The Turkish government, of course, denies it to this day. Thus, any number of Moslems and Christians, and doubtless members of other faiths, do so.

Your formulation, Sir, is really rather offensive.

[Name removed]

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[Jack Rabbit]

10. Incorrect, Mr. Edward

Your post asks: Why have Jews denied the Armenian Genocide?

First of all, you are saying Jews where perhaps you mean Israel? Or is there some official position among Rabbis that I don't know about that states that it is an ariticle of the Jewish faith that no genocide of Armenians took place at the hands of the Turks?

Second, as The Magistrate points out, Israel is not the only country that takes this position. Yes, it's wrong; all they're doing is kissing ass. However, ass-kissing is part of diplomacy. However, your post implies that Israel is the only nation taking postion and takes the position because it is Jewish.

I second my colleague's judgment in finding your post offensive.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[The Magistrate]

20. Provide Your Own Names, Dear

"Jewish lobby groups" is rather indistinct. Because of Turkish hostility to its former Arab subjects, relations between Israel and Turkey have been rather close, and the issue is very dear to the Turkish government, which claims to this day there was nothing but suppression of Armenian revolt aimed at assisting the Allied powers in the Great War.

Manufacturing mountains out of mole-hills is rather a standard line down here; if you are determined to take it up, you will find it difficult to stand out in the crowd....

[edward]

24. So you have no argument.

[The Magistrate]

25. Oh...You're Looking For An Argument!

This is Abuse...you want Mr. Cleese down the hall in 12a....

[Forkboy]

29. LMAO

:thumbsup:

My fav MP sketch!

[The Magistrate]

37. For Me, Sir

It is rather rivalled by "Sweeties", featuring Crunchy Frog and Spring Surprise, the Ex-Parrot, and Adventure Tours....

But it is certainly a great favorite, and one this place often brings to mind.

[Forkboy]

43. Well it would hardly be crunchy then would it!

all good stuff.

[tinnypriv]

35. MP = quality

I think both 'sides' can agree on that :D

[drdon326]

38. tinnypriv

ot....is Benny Hill still alive??

[Forkboy]

40. Benny is dead

Died alone and wasn't found for three days.

[drdon326]

44. Damn....

thanks.

[Forkboy]

51. your welcome

sorry to be the bearer of the bad news.

[edzontar]

67. Poor Benny-not as funny as MP, but lovable....

In his demented, silly way.

[tinnypriv]

64. Not for a long time now

Sometime in 1992 I think.

Strangely, the first ad I saw when I was in the states recently was for a Benny Hill DVD set. Improved my mood after finding out the hotel TV's (even in LA) are constantly tuned to Faux. :)

[tinnypriv]

6. I think that it is deserving of the word 'Holocaust'

In this case, not just genocide.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[LeahMira]

26. They haven't.

Why aren't Armenian not speaking out? Surely they are not all gone?

Jews are aware of the Armenian genocide. Were you to visit the U.S. Holocaust Museum you would see Armenians, and many other groups who suffered genocide, mentioned throughout the exhibit spaces. You'll also see books about Armenians, and teaching materials for instructors about them that are available in the book store area. We speak of all the genocides among ourselves... not continually, but we speak of them.

Meantime, though, are the Jewish people to keep alive the memories of your ancestors and forget or minimize their own? That we remember our history is to our credit. That citizens of the U.S. especially prefer to be some sort of rootless generic European-ancestry product of the American melting pot is for those Americans to consider and deal with.

[edward]

32. I am speaking out against any effort to deny the Armenian Genocide.

I have been shocked by efforts by prominent American Jews and officials in Israel who deny the Armenian Genocide.
Thanks to you if you also fight this ignorance and deliberate deception.

[edward]

39. They have.

<http://adl.hayway.org/default_zone/documents/wiesenthal_center.pdf>
Headline of story:
"Armenians seek place in museum.Wiesenthal center's lack of an exhibition on the 1915 genocide is criticized. Museum says a display is in the works"

The LA Times story is from February, but it might help you understand the problem.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

46. The U.S. Holocaust Museum is not

the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center may very well be guilty of what you say, however, they are a private organization is Los Angeles.

The official U.S. Holocaust Museum is located in Washington, D.C.

[edward]

50. Yes of course.

That is not what "they" referred to.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[Jack Rabbit]

42. Armenians are speaking out

It doesn't get a lot of air time.

Page for genocide studies from the website of the Armenian National Institute

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[edward]

66. It gets censored some times.

Censored does not refer to anything on this board.
I mean the way Turks and others have removed books from libraries about the Armenian Genocide.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

36. I know of no Jew, including myself, who has

denied the Armenian genocide and I never would.

[edward]

47. Thank you.

Simon Peres has denied the Armenian Genocide.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

53. Edward, please see this.

http://www.atour.com/~aahgn/news/20010425am.html

short excerpt:

Regarding the statements made by the Foreign Minister Mr. Shimon Peres that the Armenian allegations are meaningless, Mr. Yossi Sarid expressed his astonishment and said that it is incomprehensible that someone of Shimon Peres's caliber can show understanding for the denial by the Turks. Mr. Sarid demanded that Peres retract his statement. “I hope that next year Israel will join those states who already recognized the Armenian Genocide”.

...as spoken by opposition leader Mr.Yossi Sarid from the Meretz Liberal Party in Israel.


I am so sorry for the official Israeli position, but, as others have stated, politics is a game of expediency. This does not represent the people of Israel or the Jewish people of the diaspora.

[edward]

60. My posts are getting deleted.

Maybe factual arguments are not allowed here.

[edward]

82. Why don't you post the actual, full statements of Simon Peres?

He never apologized for his statements.

[bluesoul]

85. Well

At least now you know who got your posts deleted. See post #80. Mr "Aint Nuthin But ...." Sagle

[tinnypriv]

5. When was this written?

Soley "Jewish resources" will save Israel?

News to US taxpayers (post-1960). And the owners of the arms stolen during WWII and imported in the Yishuv (pre-1950).

This bullshit is racist garbage.

[Forkboy]

9. garbage seems to be the pattern

:-(

[ForestsBeatBushes]

11. Understood you refer to everything

sympathetic to Israel as racist garbage, but please do tell how this particular piece is racist?

[Forkboy]

16. this would qualify as "ubsubstantiated" as well

Understood you refer to everything sympathetic to Israel as racist garbage,

[tinnypriv]

17. Israel = "the Jews"

News to 20% of Israel's population.

Now, how about a link?

EDIT: Forget it, I found it on a series of reactionary Neten-yahoo sites. Written in 1968. 20% comment holds for the present, but would not have done then.

Regardless, I think 1968 is just a tad out of the "3 weeks" rule on here. Maybe you should bone up on the rules. I know you're "new" and all, but still.

[Jack Rabbit]

23. The remarks were written by Hoffer in 1968

Eric Hoffer was a San Francisco longshoreman who became a self-educated intellectual. He would probably turn over in his grave to be called an intellectual.

Hoffer wrote this piece as a newspaper column about a year after the conclusion of the Six Day War. That was a war for Israel's survival. At that time, it was the Arab states which rejected Resolution 242 and the land-for-peace forumla. In fact, Israel's supporters on this board are correct in blaming Arabs for intrasigence at that time. They desired the destruction of Israel and actually believed they could bring it about.

However, circumstances have changed in thirty-five years. Israel has on the one hand secured peace agreements with two Arab states, Egypt and Jordan, while on the other has built settlements in occupied land in the West Bank and Gaza knowing that this would aggravate the Arab inhabitants of the occupied territory. It is unreasonable to assume that what was said about the Middle East in 1968 would be said today.

[tinnypriv]

34. Don't forget Israel also has settlements in the Golan

[Lurking Dem]

62. Anyone here who hasn't

read The True Believer should pick up a copy. And by anyone I mean on either side of this issue.

[The Magistrate]

63. That Is A Good Work, Ma'am

[ForestsBeatBushes]

70. Yes, thank you, referring you to my message 15.

[stopthegop]

8. sounds accurate to me.. n/t

.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

18. It is accurate.

The responses to the piece are disturbingly revealing.

Thank you for your message, stopthegop.

[Forkboy]

30. disturbingly revealing.

posting them has the same effect.

[brainshrub]

12. Wrong

If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts.

WRONG!

Israel only survives at the whim of the United States. The moment the US is done sucking the oil out of the middle east, the blind support the zionists enjoy from the conservatives in America will end. If Jews and Palestinians have not made peace by then, the state of Israel is doomed.

[LeahMira]

31. Sorry... but, wrong to you.

Israel only survives at the whim of the United States.

Israel is grateful for the support of the United States, but if that were to disappear tomorrow the State of Israel would survive.

America might not, though, without its Jews.

[brainshrub]

49. With all due respect

If Israel disappears, the US will still have it's Jewish population. The US will continue happily chugging along with or without the existence of Israel.

We are a great nation due to the contributions of all our ethnic groups. Not just Jews.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

55. Please re-read your message.

Now, think about ... oh, say ... 1938.

Notice any similarities?

[brainshrub]

81. No.

Are you implying that if Israel disappears then all the Jews in the United States are going to evaporate?
Are you implying that African Americans, Irish, Mexicans or Chinese didn't have anything to do with building America?
I don't get it. Jews are a wonderful minority in the United States...so is everyone else. I don't see a connection between what I wrote and 1938.

[vierundzwanzig]

14. Guidelines

I hate to spell it out but I hardly think this thread is according to guidelines.

Am I mistaken and we have loosened them a bit?

[tinnypriv]

22. There must be a typo :D

"3 weeks" says "3 decades". :D

[ForestsBeatBushes]

15. under other circumstances, you might like him:

http://members.aol.com/llbarnhart/hoffer.htm

[atreides1]

19. Israel Chose It's Position

Turkey didn't belong to the Greeks, Algeria didn't belong to the French, and Indonesia didn't belong to the Chinese. As for Russia, Poland, and Czechoslovakia, a more specific listing would have been
appreciated. Israel/Palestine belongs to both the Israelis and the Palestinians, neither group can claim sole ownership of the land.

As for the Holocaust, Prescott Bush was making money, and most of the
advisors to President Roosevelt were anti-semitic, this includes Allen Dulles who was also a friend of the Bush family. I don't recall hearing of anyone complaining that innocent Japanese were interred in camps either.

Which Jewish resources? Billions of US dollars help to support the Israeli military machine. The Israeli economy is in a shambles, they
have high unemployment, and hunger. But they strive to prevent the world from seeing what is going on internally.

My own personal view is that Israel is for Israel, the US is only worthwhile as a bank. Israel has attacked one US Navy ship, they have spied on us, and they like other special interests groups have bribe
the members of the US Congress to get more favorable treatment.

I keep hearing how the Jewish people are the chosen of God, and that Israel is the "Promised Land", well I've said it before and I'll say it now. If they are truly God's chosen people, then they do not require support from the US or any other country for that matter.

No one knows who are the chosen of God, and if history is an indicator
God doesn't take sides. He stands on the sidelines and gives us the chance to show what we are made of. With freewill, every choice that we make is our own, whether it be for good or for evil, God is not responsible.

[The Magistrate]

33. Anatolia, Mr. Atreides

Was indeed Greek, throughout the greatest portion of civilized history, at least as these things are generally defined. The Turk was a rather late invader from the Orient, arriving only about the first millenia of the current era.

Chinese in Indonesia never exercised governmental authority, nor made any attempt to: they descend from a mixture of merchant and political expatriates from Imperial rule throughout the centuries. They have been rather successful in business, and been stigmatized as a scapegoat for popular resentment for many years. This has been expressed in murderous riot and rapine on many occassions, sometimes on a vast scale. The most recent, on the occassion of Suharto's fall, ghastly as they were, were trifles compared to historical standards.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

48. As said in

"Fiddler On the Roof": 'couldn't you choose someone else sometimes?'

[brainshrub]

52. Great post!

Well written!

[Maple]

21. We have unfortunately

had lots of holocausts and genocide in human history.

And most of the victims had to fend for themselves with no help from anyone.

They never got countries of their own given to them, much less military help.

But most of them didn't turn around and treat others the way they had been treated either.

[The Magistrate]

45. So, Ms. Maple

You are of the view that roughly half the population of Arab Palestine has been slaughtered by Jews?

[JAbuchan08]

27. You know what's funny?

The Israeli philosophy of Zionism has as one of its pillars Aaliyah. The right of any and all of the Jewish diaspora to return to the Jewish homeland - it doesn't matter if the Jew in question is a third generation American, this right is absolutely central to the philosophy of Zionism. So instead of saying that there is only one refugee population that can claim a right of return for progeny born outside their native home this article should state that there are two - one is the Jews, the other is the Palestinians. While I will not say that the article is wrong in calling for a halt to the expansion of this refugee population, I will say that the author appears to be perpetuating a double standard.

[J B]

28. Maybe if America was MILITARILY OCCUPYING SWEDEN

they MIGHT have shut up JUST a LITTLE more about Vietnam.

Or maybe if the US had threatened to NUKE them if they didn't shut up they'd have shut up.

Maybe Israel needs to threaten to nuke the Swedes to put them in line, huh?

Edit: I can't recall if Germany occupied Sweden or not, but I think it did, because Churchill was going to do it first. That's my recollection. The gist is the same - if the US had threatened Sweden with the forcible ending of its neutrality, Sweden might've been less of a critic. Or, maybe they'd have simply been pushed into the Warsaw Pact for their own protection.

Woe to Israel if it forces "Nazi Europe" to seek protection against an Israeli first nuclear strike. That does none of us any good.

[brainshrub]

54. I think your thinking about Denmark

but I'm not sure & I'm to lazy right now to do a Google search.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

59. Referring you to message 55.

[The Magistrate]

57. Sweden Was Never Occupied, Sir

Norway was: England and Germany invaded the place just about simultaneously, with the populace rather quickly coming to prefer the English. Finland allied openly with Germany in the invasion of the Soviet Union. Sweden had assisted Finland against Soviet invasion in 1939, an episode generally known as The Winter War. The government and people of Sweden were somewhat sympathetic to the Germans in opposition to the Soviets, but rather unsympathetic to the treatment of Norway, which served rather as warning of the consequences for non-cooperation, and of the inability of the Allied powers to assist in the region.

[edward]

56. Why are my posts deleted?

What statements have I made that are facually wrong?

Now do people see the problems Armenians have of having their Genocide get official recognition?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

65. Edward, this is just my guess, but

perhaps the discussion of the Armenian Genocide is more appropriately brought up at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=116

I am certain many of us will follow you there plus you will have the regulars on that forum to interact with as well.

See you @ Foreign Affairs/National Security!

FBB

[edward]

68. Apparently you cannot criticize the interests of Israel in this forum.

This will be deleted soon.

[Darranar]

69. It depends on how you did it...

I didn't see most of the currently deleted posts, but if you made generalizations about Israelis or Jews, they were rightfully deleted.

[edward]

71. I made no generalizations about Israelis of Jews.

Every statement was factual, qualified, and documented.

[The Magistrate]

74. Actually, Fellow, You Did Make General Statements

You have not really backed off much from them, either.

[edward]

75. You want to talk about Monty Python again?

I asked you before to support your argument. You said I was supposed to do that.

[The Magistrate]

78. And You Wonder Why You Are Not Engaged Seriously, Dear?

The request was for you to support your own loose statements, which you declined to do.

A list of libraries from which works on the Armenian genocide have been deleted by Jewish pressure would be of some value, as well.

The topic is clearly a well-known one, and should time permit, you could probably use some education on it. Ottoman history, and the Great War in its eastern phases, is somewhat familiar to me, though not my leading interest.

[edward]

79. Never said books were removed by Jewish pressure.

Do you even read my posts?
I supported every statement I made. Which statement do you want a serious discussion on. (it was you who brought up Monty Python, not me)

[ForestsBeatBushes]

Edward, please don't

distort what you wrote because the poster mentioned he hadn't seen your deleted messages.

There are a great many criticisms of Israel on I/P; many of which I consider unwarranted, prejudiced, hateful and have most definitely hurt me deeply.

I can understand your anger now, but please do go to the Foreign Affairs section rather than the I/P section to thoroughly discuss the Armenian Genocide, okay?

[edward]

77. Name one distortion.

And I did not come here to discuss the Armenian Genocide; which would not have been deleted for that reason alone. Although I don't know why.

[Jack Rabbit]

72. Really, Mr. Edward?

If that's what you think, you ought to spend more time here.

[edward]

73. Well, half my posts got deleted.

None of which lacked factual evidence in support.

[The Magistrate]

76. Indeed, Mr. Rabbit

If criticism of Israel were barred here, pickings would be rather thin, and it would be necessary to go up to the candidate wars for a decent scrap....

[Jim Sagle]

80. Maybe if you stop SINGLING OUT the Jews and Israel as

covering up Armenian genocide, I won't have to keep hitting alert.

It's called scapegoating. Check into it.

[edward]

83. Name on thing I said that is false.

I was quite specific in every statement I made. Never said anything about "all" people doing anything.
You want a real debate, let's have one.
Scapegoating has nothing at all with what I said.

Name one thing I said that is false.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

84. Locking

Not based on a recent news or op/ed article

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground