Israel circulates photo of Hitler greeting late Palestinian mufti

[azurnoir]

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has ordered diplomats to use an old photograph of a former Palestinian religious leader meeting Adolf Hitler to counter world criticism of a Jewish building plan for East Jerusalem.

Israeli officials said on Wednesday that Lieberman told Israeli ambassadors to circulate the 1941 shot in Berlin of the Nazi leader seated next to Haj Amin al-Husseini, the late mufti or top Muslim religious leader in Jerusalem.

One official said Lieberman, an ultranationalist, hoped the photo would "embarrass" Western countries into ceasing to demand that Israel halt the project on land owned by the mufti's family in a predominantly Arab neighbourhood in East Jerusalem.

Israel captured East Jerusalem during the 1967 Six-Day War, annexing it as part of its internationally unrecognised claim to Jerusalem as its
capital.

Asked why Lieberman issued the order, a spokesman said: "because it's important for the world to know the facts" and would not elaborate.

The United States and Europe this week protested the plan by private Israeli developers to build 20 apartments on the land which Israel says was bought by an American-Jewish millionaire as well as Israel's threats to demolish Palestinian homes that could leave thousands homeless.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1102225.html

[Donald Ian Rankin]

"Look, a three headed monkey!"

When attempting the indefensible, instead of defending it, try to distract attention.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

1. "Look, a three headed monkey!"

When attempting the indefensible, instead of defending it, try to distract attention.

[Sebastian Doyle]

2. More hypocrisy from the Israeli right

Their best friend, Chimpy Bush, was the grandson of Hitler's personal banker, but that never seemed to bother them.

[sui generis]

4. I once peed H-i-t-l-e-r in the snow when no one was looking

It was an accident, but it sure looked like it. I guess, I am like, sooo totally evil now.

:silly:

[Howardx]

3. the facts...

In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities

[sui generis]

5. it's just funny that nobody with couth is allowed to use the ultimate evil

HITLER :eyes:

except some people who can use it for whatever they want as often as they want.

It's just puerile and manipulative, and it cheapens the association. Moreover, it's making the broad implication that Palestinians want the death-camp elimination of Jews: not to be confused with Israelis.

Try again?

[Howardx]

7. its funny

that a former israeli prime minister was part of a group that offered to work with the nazis AFTER it was clear they were exterminating the jews and yet this picture of a long dead mufti is supposed to mean something...

[shira]

8. did you read the rest of that WIKI piece on Lehi and the Nazis?

They were trying to work a deal with Germany to SAVE as many Jews as possible by getting them all out of Europe and into Israel. As naive as the proposal was, if Germany had accepted and recognized a Jewish State hundreds of thousands - perhaps millions of European Jews - would have been saved (unless Germany invaded Israel). As bad as Lehi's methods were, in THIS case you bring up they were trying to save Jews.

And you equate that to the Mufti's associations with Hitler?

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

9. So you approve of Liebermans actions?

As you have brought this up yourself when defending Israel's actions or were you just trying to whitewash what must be an embarrassing episode out of Israel's past-It was ALL about saving Jews(who had chosen to stay in Europe)and had nothing to do with weakening the British hold on Palestine

[shira]

13. no

and it WAS about saving Jews AND kicking out the Brits, whose policies were extremely harmful to Jews during Brit control (nothing Brits can be proud of, that's for certain).

[azurnoir]

14. As I said below

if Lehi had succeeded with this it may well have lead to helping with a Nazi or Axis victory in the Eastern Hemisphere, no Jews except those in the US and Canada would have been safe

ETA you did not answer my question about Lieberman your title line makes it appear that you did however

[Howardx]

16. again this needs to be emphasized

"On January 11, 1941 a letter by Lehi, which would be later referred to as the Ankara document, was sent from Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich."<19><20> The letter was signed by Avraham Stern and the later Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir."

former israeli prime minister shamir was willing to sign a treaty with the nazis. you cant BS it away.

[azurnoir]

10. This is what wiki says

In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition of an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) That the ability to emigrate to Palestine be conceded to all Jews, with no restriction of numbers, who, in leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar.

On January 11, 1941 a letter by Lehi, which would be later referred to as the Ankara document, was sent from Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich."<19><20> The letter was signed by Avraham Stern and the later Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir. There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to von der Marwitz and von der Marwitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a general in French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivalry between himself and other Vichy officials: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in von der Marwitz' letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton," or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Mufti of Jerusalem in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who took him in his car through Syria to the Iraqi border in 1939.

In any case, von der Marwitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. <21><22>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities


So had Lehi succeeded with this endeavor and there by helped a Nazi victory just how safe would Palestine's Jews have been? this episode happened prior to America's entering the war and at a time when it appeared the Nazi's might well win

[Howardx]

11. dont forget this

Prominent members of Lehi
Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli prime minister 1983-1984 and 1986-1992.

[shira]

12. Lehi tried to save countless numbers of European Jews - more than any other Western nation tried

to compare their proposal to the Mufti's cooperation with Hitler is absurd.

[azurnoir]

15. Lehi wanted to "win" at any price

IMO that included the lives of Jews who had chosen to continue living in galus

[Howardx]

17. this is ironic to say the least

"An article titled "Terror" in He Khazit (The Front, a Lehi underground newspaper) argued as follows:

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all. <11>"


from the wiki

so at one time terrorism was a-ok with the future israelis

[azurnoir]

18. the denial of the fact that terrorists will expend the lives

of their own to accomplish their purpose only seems to apply to Arab groups for some here or in the minds of some Lehi was not a terrorist group

[shira]

19. you guys are a riot - happy delusions!

[azurnoir]

20. so do you believe Lehi was a terrorist group? n/t

[shira]

21. duh.

do you believe they were wrong to try to persuade Germany into allowing European Jews to leave European ghettos so that as many as possible could find refuge in Israel?

[azurnoir]

22. I think considering the circumstances at the time

they were stupid, as I have said if Germeny had won do you really think Jews in Palestine would have been safe?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. It warms the cockles of the heart to read a sub-thread making out LEHI were so noble...

A lot of terrorist groups have/had noble aims and tried to use them to justify what they did. But romanticising them and trying to make them sound noble because of what they wanted to achieve is so totally wrong on all levels....

Here's how it is in a nutshell...

They were a bunch of fucking terrorists. Not only that, but they were a bunch of fucking terrorists who were willing to associate with Hitler. End of story...

[azurnoir]

24. That kind of heart warming

usually makes me reach for Rollaids:-)

[Howardx]

32. yep!

spot on and no amount of revisionism from the usual suspects can change that.

[shira]

33. nope!

a desperate and naive attempt to save Jews by kicking Brits out of Palestine does not equal an attempt to help Hitler kill mass numbers of Jews. It's not even close and in fact it's a vulgar comparison. It's like, "so totally wrong on all levels...." :eyes:

Stern believed that the Jewish population of Palestine should fight, rather than support, the British in the War, and that militant methods were an effective means for achieving those goals. He was vigorously opposed to the White Paper of 1939, which sharply reduced both Jewish immigration and the ability of Jews to purchase land in Palestine. He believed that immigration to Palestine should be available to Jewish refugees fleeing from Europe, and that this was the most important issue of the day. It was over the issue of the British that Stern and his long-time friend David Raziel split. Raziel believed that the Yishuv should assist Britain in their fight against Nazi Germany; he was killed in Iraq in 1941 during a mission for the British forces. Stern believed that dying for the 'foreign occupier' who was obstructing the creation of the Jewish State was useless. He differentiated between 'enemies of the Jewish people' (e.g., the British) and 'Jew haters' (e.g. the Nazis), believing that the former needed to be defeated and the latter manipulated. To this end, he initiated contact with Nazi authorities, in order to enlist their aid in establishing the Jewish state in Palestine, open to Jewish refugees from Nazism, in exchange for collaborating with Germany against the British Empire in the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Foundations_and_founding

your hatred of all that is Israel knows no bounds.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I've got no more interest in the 'good deeds' of LEHI than I do in those of Hamas....

Y'know, when someone's frothing at the mouth about how evil Hamas is and isn't the slightest bit interested in any good stuff they do, yet justify repellent actions of another terrorist group with the argument they did something good, that's the height of hypocrisy and solid proof that terrorists = Arabs and terrorists = freedom fighters = Jews. There's one set of standards for terrorists depending on what their ethnicity is, and that's so totally wrong to do....

[shira]

26. of course it was naive, no question about it - but at least they tried to save Jews

while the USA and the rest of Europe were allowing the savagery to happen.

To say that Lehi was working with Hitler like al-Hussayni was doing is ludicrous.

[Ken Burch]

43. The Luftwaffe would've carpet-bombed the place immediately

n/t.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. That's not what they are being criticized for!

Of course, if that were the limit of their actions, that would be fine.

But they *offered to collaborate with the Nazis, to help them win the war, because they thought that if they did it would make the establishment of a Jewish state more likely than if the British won*.

So yes, I think they're exactly comparable to the mufti, or any other terrorist group of Nazi collaborators or would-be collaborators. The only difference is that his offer was accepted and their's wasn't.

[shira]

27. i don't think you realize how dangerous life was in Palestine for Jews with Brits in control there

to the Jews of that time, all the jew-haters were virtually the same. The Brits weren't allowing ANY jews into Palestine for refuge against the Nazis. This was at least a plan to fix it. Was it naive and stupid? yes, but at the time the Brits may as well have been colluding with the Nazis b/c their anti-immigration policies against Jews going to Palestine played right into Hitler's hands.

I'd say if anyone was collaborating with Nazis of that time, it was most of Europe that allowed all this to happen under their noses and ESPECIALLY the Brits who were sealing off Palestine and leaving Jews to rot in Europe.

In effect, how was the British White Paper policy any different than the Mufti al-Hussayni's wishes for the Nazis to kill off all the Jews?

Fact is, due to BRITISH influence and power, HUNDREDS of thousands of Jews who were killed and could have gone to Palestine did NOT.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. Absolutely - many of the Western nations should have done far more to prevent the Holocaust.

But that's a completely different issue.

Incidentally, I would use harsher words than "naive and stupid" for Lehi's offer to actively collaborate with the Nazis...

[shira]

29. so what's worse?

(a) Lehi begging Germany: "please, we know you Nazis hate us, have put us in ghettos, initiated pogroms like Krystallnacht - so how's about sending all European Jews to Israel and recognizing our own country here? That way we'd help you expel all Jews out of Europe just like in past centuries and be out of your lives - and in return, we do our best to kick out the Jew-hating Brits we have here making life miserable for us? You help us, we help you. Deal?

(b) The British doing Hitler's work for him, not allowing Jews refuge, letting them rot in Europe.

================

What's worse by a long shot, hmm?

You only get one chance to get this one right.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. ...You do know that's not what Lehi actually said, don't you?

What they actually did was offer to fight on Germany's side in the war, to help the Nazis win, in exchange for the Nazis deporting Jews from Europe to Palestine. That's what a) should be.

And that a) is far worse than b).

[shira]

31. oh - so you think Lehi was MORE motivated to help Germany than to help Jews?

[shira]

34. it would appear that if that's what you believe, it's wrong

Stern believed that the Jewish population of Palestine should fight, rather than support, the British in the War, and that militant methods were an effective means for achieving those goals. He was vigorously opposed to the White Paper of 1939, which sharply reduced both Jewish immigration and the ability of Jews to purchase land in Palestine. He believed that immigration to Palestine should be available to Jewish refugees fleeing from Europe, and that this was the most important issue of the day. It was over the issue of the British that Stern and his long-time friend David Raziel split. Raziel believed that the Yishuv should assist Britain in their fight against Nazi Germany; he was killed in Iraq in 1941 during a mission for the British forces. Stern believed that dying for the 'foreign occupier' who was obstructing the creation of the Jewish State was useless. He differentiated between 'enemies of the Jewish people' (e.g., the British) and 'Jew haters' (e.g. the Nazis), believing that the former needed to be defeated and the latter manipulated. To this end, he initiated contact with Nazi authorities, in order to enlist their aid in establishing the Jewish state in Palestine, open to Jewish refugees from Nazism, in exchange for collaborating with Germany against the British Empire in the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Foundations_and_founding

[shira]

35. oh - and please read up on John Loftus & the Muslim brotherhood

This is the same John Loftus who wrote about the Bush family connection to Nazis.

See what he has to say about the Brits role in employing Nazis for a certain job in 1948....something about finishing Hitler's work.

http://www.think-israel.org/loftus.muslimbrotherhood.html

that's way bad, don't you think? tsk, tsk?

[Ken Burch]

42. The answer was to create a global movement to get the US and Canada to let the Jews in

Not to insist on sending them to Palestine.

IT's the fault of the antisemites in North America that Hitler was able to do what he did. The Palestinians were blameless in the Holocaust.

And remember, that scumbag al-Husseini had to recruit ALBANIANS for his "Legion". Actual Palestinians were not interested in wiping Jews off of the face of the Earth. That was solely a European fixation.

And the Mufti was exiled from Palestine in 1950 and has been dead since 1974. There's no way it can be fair to hold him against Palestinians in 2009, for G-d's sake.

[Ken Burch]

41. You assume Palestinians could never be trusted, but you'd be willing to trust HITLER?

If the Nazis had let the Jewish refugees get on planes or boats, they'd have immediately BOMBED the boats.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I'm still stunned at the equating of the British with the Nazis...

Surely this stuff I'm reading is someone taking the piss out of everyone....

[whosinpower]

6. Goodness gracious!

Hitler has been "off limits" for good reason. He was without a doubt, one of the most evil examples of humanity, we have had the sadness to witness.
But, Mr. Lieberman - this ploy of yours is going to backfire BADLY.

Showing the photo - is to insinuate what exactly?
1. That the palistinians are all anti-semitic jew haters and deserve the same treatment that Hitler, and the Nazi's got for their ill concieved wars and genocide?
2. That Israel came into existance, with the help of the world powers of the day, as a consolation prize for the Holocaust????

Sorry - this action requires that his feet be placed to the fire - and he MUST explain himself more thoroughly. It is NOT self explanatory....it is inflammatory, and the sympathy of the Holocaust erodes further with actions such as these. He harms his cause with this.....greatly.

[azurnoir]

40. But Here you are promoting Bush

it doesn't seem that Nazi connections bother you all that much

shira (1000+ posts) e list Fri Jul-24-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. gosh, wrong again - over and over - want to go for a record today? make up some more bullshit?

Edited on Fri Jul-24-09 12:02 PM by shira
You think the NYT article was full of shit?

and you wonder who's delusional here.

:eyes:

Take a look at Bush's 2004 letter to Sharon here:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Docum...

Notice the parts about refugees and the 1949 armistice lines, new facts on the ground, etc.?

That's WAY after the Israeli govt. agreed on the Road Map, with conditions agreed to by the USA.

What you see in that letter by Bush is his administration's clear dedication to Israel's concerns - in other words what you would call a VIOLATION of the roadmap - but what the USA and Israel at that time would call cooperation based on the understanding agreed to May 23, 2003 before Sharon signed onto the roadmap.

You see, Sharon was just being careful to get some documentation before proceeding to evacuate Gaza. He needed to go back to his party to assure them that the Gaza withdrawal was worth the time and effort and would pay dividends with regard to Israel's keeping of the roadmap - with the USA looking out for their interests.

This isn't rocket science.

==========

Still thinking Israel lied about this 'settlement' arrangment with the USA?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=281947&mesg_id=282122

[IndianaGreen]

36. Don't forget Pope Pius XII and all those Cardinals that loved Hitler

including the crazy priest that founded Opus Dei.

[grassfed]

39. myth

We share in the grief of humanity …. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.

~ Golda Meir

No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII.

~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America

In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See…was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews…. The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.

~ Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania

The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.

~ Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel

I told that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews…. We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church.

~ Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel’s first foreign minister and second prime minister)

[grassfed]

38. Mufti of Jerusalem was not a Nazi

The Mufti of Jerusalem was not a Nazi, only wanted Zionist invaders out of Palestine.

Note that the Mufti's teacher, Muhammad Rashid Rida, condemned pogroms against Russian Jews.

[Ken Burch]

44. Actually, the Mufti as an individual was.

The more important point is, the Mufti's views on Hitler and the Jews were not shared by the vast majority of the Palestinian Muslim community, upon whom he had been imposed as Mufti by the British(nice move there, Lord Samuel).