Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews (Rabbis) pay visit to Hamas in Gaza (Times Online)

[Liberation Angel]

Anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Jews visit Gaza


A group representing an anti-Zionist, ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect have paid a brief visit to the Gaza Strip to express their support for Hamas. The trip was the first by members of the Neturei Karta sect since Hamas – whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel – seized control of the tiny coastal territory two years ago.

The Orthodox group's opposition to Zionism comes from the belief that Jews should not have their own state until the coming of the Messiah and has seen them embrace Israel's enemies – including President Ahmadinejad of Iran, whom Neturei Karta members famously hugged at a Holocaust denial conference in December 2006. Four sect representatives from the US sat down with Ismail Haniya, the Hamas Prime Minister, yesterday after arriving in Gaza from Egypt on Wednesday night in a group of around 200 pro-Palestinian activists including the British MP George Galloway.



"It is your land, it is occupied, illegitimately and unjustly by people who stole it, kidnapped the name of Judaism and our identity."

----

During yesterday's meeting, according to an account on a Hamas website, Mr Haniya told the group that he held no grudge against Jews, but against the state of Israel itself.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6717847.ece



more at link

[Liberation Angel]

1. Jeez - no comments?

or does everyone have me on ignore?

[LeftishBrit]

2. These are a small group of ultra-fundies ...

They don't believe Israel should have existed before the coming of the Messiah.

Religious loonies visiting other religious loonies, in this case.

[Liberation Angel]

3. Because of recent flareups in Jerusalem with this group

I have spent some time checking out these Chasidim.

That is how I came across this article actually.

Calling hem religious loonies is very disrespectful.

Bill Maher disses them in his film religulous in a segment which I considered very demeaning and disgusting actually.

They were among the earliest religious enclaves in West Jerusalem and are Kabbalists. Highly spiritual and they're interpretation of secular Zionism is quite insightful in many respects.

If Zionism (which is by no means monolithic) is NOT about religion and is purely secular, then these religious folks have a justifiable grievance I would guess at first blush
( I need to research this more).

But when I visited the middle east I met quite a few people (Rabbis of Sabrah and other background) who subscribed to this idea that the secular state is prohibited and that Palestinians and Jews can live side by side (in other words that the rules pertaining to "strangers" in a strange land applies and that the treatment of Palestinians by the right wing in Israel is Looney and an abomination to G-d.

In many respets the utlra orthodox are reviled by the mainstream in Israel, although they are tolerated as "looneys" who are pissed when Jews eat hot dogs or violate the sabbath. But they also oppose the treatment of palestinians.

So I think the issue is much deeper than you understand with your dismissive comments.

Personaly i find these kabbalists quite amazing and not the self-hating Jufenrat that the right protrays them as (and as Bill Maher made them seem). I have some friends among the Hasidim and have studied the Kabalah.

If you think it is looney then it is no loonier than other religions with mystical traditions. It is very much like Tibetan Buddhism imo in many respects (but the clothes thing still evades my understanding, like the Amish and the plain quakers - but I do not disrespect them for it)

BTW Rastafarians use the same biblical provisions regarding their dreadlocks as the Hasidim. I supose they are loney in your book too.

[azurnoir]

4. I'll give you this Bill Maher gave them the O'Reilly treatment

in his film, not to mention his treatment of Muslims

[shira]

5. I don't see what's respectful about a group of Jews...

...who praise leaders that incite hatred and genocide against other Jews and who glorify the murderers of Jewish children.

[LeftishBrit]

6. I'm disrespectful to those who instil religion into politics

Look: I have a relative in Israel who belongs to a related but less politicized group. Like Neturei Karta, his group doesn't believe in the State of Israel. They are very religious; very traditional; act as though the state doesn't exist; don't vote; don't usually serve in the army; and spend lots of time studying the Talmud. They are expected to have lots of children - my cousin has 9 at present.

Though I don't share his, or any, religious beliefs, and though I have a somewhat hard time with the role of women, who often are the ones who earn most of the money AND raise the large family while the husband studies religion - I would never call him or his family 'looneys'. What bothers me about Neturei Karta, who really are the fringe OF the fringe, and far from representative even of the anti-Zionist ultra-orthodox groups, is that their views have led them to support (not just negotiate with) extreme antisemitic theocrats. Like some of them attending Ahmadinejad's holocaust 'revisionism' conference a couple of years ago.

They are far less influential, and therefore far less dangerous. than their ultra-Zionist religious counterparts in the settler movement. But both types of individuals are setting their brand of religion above country and above humanity in my opinion. Not all ultra-Orthodox Zionists are religious loonies, but those who support the settler movement are; not all ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionists are religious loonies, but those who support Ahmadinejad are. Similarly, not all, or most Muslims, are religious loonies, but those who support theocracy are; not all or most Christians are religious loonies, but Pat Robertson is. It doesn't as far as I'm concerned depend on the intensity or nature of the religous beliefs, but on their willingness to sacrifice human rights and welfare to them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Maybe right twice a day, but still a stopped clock.

Pronouncements by Neteuri Karta are, at best, coincidentally correct, I think.

[Liberation Angel]

8. For me - as a somewhat objective observer, to read this statement from Hamas is

not such a bad thing:


"on a Hamas website, Mr Haniya told the group that he held no grudge against Jews, but against the state of Israel itself."

For the leader of Hamas to meet with Jewish Spiritual Rabbis of a most "righteous" sect and to say his beef is not with Jews but with the government of Israel is, at the very least, positive.

Rabbis trying to make peace with Palestinians (especially in light of the purported opinions of "most" Rabbis in Israel on other threads) is a positive thing imho and the fact that these Rabbis dared to go on the relief mission to me speaks volumes about their righteous intent.

Maybe I am looney but it looks like peacemaking to me. So does much of their efforts at peace in general. Many Rabbis I have met might rather kill a Palestinian than try to make peace with them depending on their interpretation of the Torah and Talmud. Same goes for many Muslims in the vice versa.

So Rabbis and thr Gaza Hamas leader making peace seems to me not something to dismiss as looneyism. Their efforts might actually yield results, g-d- willing.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. What they both want is for Israel to no longer exist. Do you share their desire?

[Liberation Angel]

10. no

Israel as a fully pluralistic society would be nice, however.

The way I see it Israel must exist and also must recognize and respect the right of the Palestinian state to exist alongside it.

My interest in this group of Chasidim does not come from my belief that their overtures for the end of the Israeli state are right, but that their perspective is one which should be tolerated (and to a large degree it is inside Israel).

However, I am still learning about them. I met such people in Israel/Palestine when I visited and have been kind of intrigued by their mystical Kabbalistic perspective ever since and do not think they shoud be dismssed solely as "looneys". They seem to oppose imperialism.

My main point in posting this is not so much to say I support their position on the existence of Israel but that their overtures for peace nd tolerance and even brotherhood with the Palestinians might be a useful perspective in terms of undoing the naive notion that all Israelis or Rabbis or Jews support the extreme right wing position in Israel. In many respects the attacks on "Israelis" or "Jews" from the left keeps perpetuating the meme that they are somehow monolithic and that none in Israel want to promote peace and brotherhood with their cousin Palestinians and Arabs.

[LeftishBrit]

11. I certainly agree that not all Israelis or Jews (religious or otherwise) support the Right..

And that it's important to recognize this and support the groups that are seeking peace and building bridges with the Palestinians.

But I think that there are better and more constructive groups; e.g. Peace Now, the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Machsom Watch, etc., for political activism,

and for direct bridge-building:

www.onevoicemovement.org

www.nswas.org

www.givathaviva.org

and various organizations under the umbrella of www.allmep.org

and projects supported by www.bsst.org.uk

I take the opportunity to refer people to one of my favourite blogs:

www.gnblog.org

[Liberation Angel]

12. I would add Seeds of Peace (Palestinian/Israeli Youth Peace Camps)

Info here:

http://www.seedsofpeace.org/

[LeftishBrit]

13. Thanks - sounds like a great organization!

[LeftishBrit]

14. One correction...

the blog I mentioned is at www.gnblog.com (not 'org')