Don't make me laugh - Evelyn Gordon

[Donald Ian Rankin]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804474901&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

...

Aluf Benn, Haaretz's diplomatic correspondent, articulated one problem in an August 7 column describing a conversation with a "senior European diplomat." Benn posed one simple question: How would a deal benefit ordinary Israelis? The diplomat was stunned. Wasn't it obvious? It would create a Palestinian state! After Benn pointed out that most Israelis care very little about the Palestinians; they want to know how peace would benefit them, the diplomat tried again: "There would be an end to terror." "Don't make me laugh," Benn replied.

When the IDF withdrew from parts of the West Bank and Gaza under the Oslo Accords, Israelis got suicide bombings in their cities. When it quit Gaza entirely, they got rockets on the Negev. But the bombings stopped after the IDF reoccupied the West Bank, and the rockets stopped after January's Gaza operation. In short, the IDF has done a far better job of securing "peace" as Israelis understand it - i.e., not being killed - than the "peace process" ever has.

NORMALIZATION WITH the Arab world is also scant attraction, Benn noted; most Israelis "have no inherent desire to fly El Al through Saudi Arabian airspace or visit Morocco's 'interests section.'" And the downsides of a deal - financing the evacuation of tens of thousands of settlers and "the frightening prospect of violent internal schisms" - are substantial.

Benn's conclusion from the conversation was shocking: Thus far, the international community has never thought about how a deal might benefit Israelis; that was considered unimportant.

But to persuade Israelis to back an agreement, he noted, the world is going to have to start thinking. For Israelis already have what they want most, "peace and quiet," and they will not willingly risk it for "another diplomatic adventure whose prospects are slim and whose dangers are formidable."

...

I think this perfectly sums up why a campaign of boycotts and international sanctions against Israel is necessary. Israel is perfectly happy with the status quo; the only way to improve things for the Palestinians will be to change that fact by making the status quo less comfortable for Israel, sadly.

[saltpoint]

1. IMO peace in the Middle East would draw closer if film, music,

painting, and other of the arts were more prevalently devoted to the cultue and poetry of the people who lived there.

[IDFbunny]

10. You make no point

that Israel is punished every time it gives a concession?

[saltpoint]

16. In the realm of the creative arts no one is punished, but the inner

landscape changes.

Later, the outer landscape also changes.

[LeftishBrit]

11. Perhaps in particular if there were more joint Jewish/Arab, Israeli/Palestinian cultural projects

There are some, e.g.

www.win-peace.org

www.mideastweb.org/nemashim/english.htm

www.thefreedomtheatre.org

[saltpoint]

17. There are, and more would be better. Good inclusion on this

LeftishBrit.

Not surprisingly, you're all over this.


:thumbsup: :hi:

[pelsar]

2. no,boycotts wont work either....

attempted boycotts are preferable to rockets and mortars on Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.....

movement towards peace also requires the Palestinians to somehow figure out how not just to make sure there wont be attacks from the PA, but to to somehow gain the avg israelis confidence that they're wont be after a withdrawal (I understand for some this will not seem "fair"...but life really isn't about being fair, nor just....for those who wan to see movement towards two states)

one idea is not to have a committee to decide if the IDF is stealing Palestinian organs..or refuse to have a music concert when they will also play in Tel Aviv......

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. But that still doesn't motivate Israel to withdraw.

No matter how confident Israel becomes that withdrawal would not be followed by further violence, if - as it is - it is perfectly happy with the status quo, it won't change it.

Unless/until Israel shares at least some of the Palestinians' pain, it won't end it. I don't think violence is an acceptable method to achieve that. I do think economic pressure, boycotts and sanctions are.

[pelsar]

4. pain yes....but not in a vacuum

whatever the "pain" is, its going to be weighed against the "pain" of the rockets and mortars on israel. It doesn't matter how much one argues and says 'it won't be"...all israelis have to do is look at Lebanon and gaza.....and then look where the westbank is-and every israeli i know will roll his/her eyes if one says "gosh no, after a withdrawal the PA will prevent the shooting from th westbank.

no economic pain will be enough for israelis let that happen...its the PAs move and its not an easy move either

[Donald Ian Rankin]

5. I think it's an impossible one, frankly.

Israel has a strong vested interest in disbelieving any promise of peace the Palestinians make.

I don't think it is possible - or necessary - to change the facts on the ground. An Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line would be sufficient to bring peace, so the substance is already in place. What is needed is to change Israeli perceptions, not Palestinian positions.

[pelsar]

6. dont make me laugh.....

An Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line would be sufficient to bring peace,

i hadn't realize that hamas agreed to that...or iran or hizballa or islamic jihad......

are you actually suggesting that the PA (you know the one that won't even accept a concert within their territory if the guy plays in israel, etc etc etc) actually has the political will and military will to stop any attacks that would happen after such a withdrawl?

btw..wasn't that the same mantra said about Lebanon?...and if i recall correctly about gaza as well....... withdrawl, a major move on the part of the israelis will bring about a change in the PA position, (of course that was all pre gaza pull out and the subsequent 6,000 rockets)

two pullouts...two failures.....how dumb do you think the israelis are, to do the same thing for a third time?
______


if the PA is serious, then they have a vested interest in convincing israelis that they are serious......they are the ones that are living under the occupation, where time is not on their side (and accepting the accusation that the IDF might be stealing organs is not the way to do it)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. Do you think boycotts were effecting in ending apartheid in South Africa? nt

[bemildred]

7. I find this whole argument very unrealistic.

It is based of a series of premises that I don't agree with, probably most essentially that the present "peace and quiet" is a stable end result of past events. The situation is what it has always been, but worse. But I'm not willing to argue, just consider that I put in my 2 cents and said this is a very unrealistic view of the situation, largely fostered by the Israeli government. To be fair, I can't blame the Israeli public for being a bit shell-shocked, but that won't buy you much.

[pelsar]

12. the Palestinians in the westbank have got a problem.....

they're caught between the IDF the settlers and gaza and hamas. Hamas was outgunned and out manned in gaza, but were highly motivated. Its no secret they want the westbank as well (which is why the PA is working with israel to keep them down). Have the IDF leave and its questionable how long the PA will survive.

It one of those dilemmas that many not even have a good solution. For some the occupation may be the evils of evils and letting them risk living under hamas is a "small price to pay". The trouble with that scenario is that for many who disagree are the Palestinians themselves in the westbank....and one would think their views should count for something.

for a comparison, its been over 30 years since the iranian revolution...and the peoples attempt at change failed miserably.....i suspect hamas sees the iranians as their model- democracy is not "on the horizon" and the westbankers are very well aware that.

[bemildred]

14. You have a problem, and no solution.

But let's not argue. We would both find it like talking to a wall.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. self-delete

[shira]

8. good article

I'm also convinced that even if Israel and the PA agree to final status and a peace deal is signed - that further Palestinian aggression, whether from Hamas or whatever - even Hezbollah - will place Israel internationally in the very same position they are in today - ie, what they signed wasn't good enough or they ripped the Palestinians off in the deal, etc....and in no way (as now) would they be allowed to adequately defend against more terror once a deal is signed. Oil interests and the exporting of terror outside the ME are big motivating factors for other nations in their dealings with Israel, which will always have to concede to the point of national suicide.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Recent history is quite clear on this

Israel did land for peace with Egypt and it worked.

Egypt did land for peace with the Palestinian factions and it failed. If Egypt took retook control of Gaza and Jordan retook control of the West Bank, Israel might reconsider.

Unfortunately neither Egypt nor Jordan are that stupid.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. 100% spot on. Maintaining this murderous status quo over Palestine must PAINFUL for the average

Israeli.

[shira]

15. so painful BSD will result in Israel making yet another Olmert 2008 offer with the PA rejecting it

what's the point?

[oberliner]

18. So odd that you support collective punishment in this case

This idea that you want to inflict pain upon the average Israeli does not seem in keeping with your Progressive label.

You are arguing that life must be made painful for the average Israeli until their leadership changes its policies.

How is this different from those who say that life must be made painful for the average Gazan until their leadership changes its policies?

[bemildred]

19. So you are ready to condemn the treatment of Gaza?

You think Israel should deal with Hamas on a normal basis?

[oberliner]

22. I've never stated or suggested that I want Gazans to feel pain

I opposed the invasion of Gaza and I do not support the current policy regarding the limitations on humanitarian goods that are able to reach Gaza via Israel (or Egypt for that matter). On a personal note, I have supported organizations that are devoted to delivering such humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Not sure, though, that Israel can deal with Hamas on a normal basis as I am pretty positive that Hamas is not willing to deal with Israel on a normal basis.

I would certainly be in favor of Gazans voting out the Hamas leadership and I would also very much be in favor of Israelis voting out their current government as well.

The notion that Gazans (or Israelis) need to "feel pain" in order to get them to change their leadership, however, seems to me not to be a progressive idea at all.

[bemildred]

25. I did not think the intent of PM's post was clearly what you infer.

That would be up to her to explain or not.

However, on the assumption that your inference was correct, I was trying to clarify whether you disagree with her about the method or about who it should be applied to. I am taking it that you disagree with the method, which I can concur with, in part. We can have a more elaborate discussion of the subject some other time. I will simply say that you cannot just consider sanctions of one sort or another in the abstract, you have to consider what you are actually doing and to whom, there are issues of proportionality and equity that must be considered. The devil is in the details.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of what "normal basis" is, other than to point out that that is not what is going on now WRT Gaza, so "more normal basis" would do the job just as well for me.

[shaayecanaan]

20. You could say the same for sanctions on Iran or North Korea (nt)

[oberliner]

23. You absolutely could nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. I absolutely believe that the cost of maintaining this evil institution

must have a high price, that is felt by every Israeli.

Israelis must be forced to ask themselves: is it worth it?

[oberliner]

24. This appears to be identical to the Netanyahu approach

I think he has used that exact language - that Gazans "must have a high price" that is felt by all of them that will force them to ask themselves if it is worth it.

[pelsar]

26. your right.....

Israelis must be forced to ask themselves: is it worth it?

we do....and we read about the settlers beating up the Palestinians, taunting the IDF etc.....and then we remember Gaza and Lebanon......and the thousands of missiles launched from those areas.

and we conclude that: in the meantime it is worth it.

[Vegasaurus]

27. This is the part that burns those who want Israel to collapse

Israel is just fine right now.

Most Israelis would prefer to live in safety behind walls and checkpoints that have saved lives, rather than live with suicide bombers blowing up their cafes.

The settlers are a small price to pay for safety.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. Thanks for your honesty, Pelsar.

I look forward to the day when everyone can enjoy coffee in coffee shops, educate their children, move from place to place, attend international conferences, experience international culture and send their children abroad to school.

Until then... BDS!

[pelsar]

29. one day it will come to pass....

i think it will take a "coincidence of leadership on both sides where the leaders trust each other enough to make moves that they can live with.....and sell it to each of their own people....and at the same time have the respect of their own to be trusted.....(and side line the extremists)

but that will take some bit of 'timing"......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. My view is less optimistic.

I don't foresee Israel allowing a Palestinian leader to emerge whom the people actually trust.

[shira]

31. 2 questions....

1. what would be the purpose behind BDS of Israel, in your opinion?

2. have the Palestinian people ever had leadership they trusted? maybe the leadership behind the 1st intifada, before Arafat?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. Why BDS? Change. Like Pelsar says, why bother?

Most Israelis can party, travel, go dancing... WTF do they care about the people of WB & Gaza, when locking them up in concentration-camp like conditions solves their "terrorism" problem?

I don't know about you, but I'm one to fight back. I never lay down and let people shit on me. Like I tell my kids... if someone mocks you, teases you, give it right back. They might continue doing it, but they will know there is a price to be paid for messing with you.

I don't support retaliatory murder (though I surely understand why some would), but I do support nonviolent means such asinternational BDS that will isolate Israel and turn it into a pariah nation, a la South Africa.

"Ain't gonna play Tel Aviv" will someday have the same ring as the exhortation to isolate Sun City.


In fact, I think leadership around the first intifadah was very trusted and clear in its goals of national liberation. Hence secret negotiations with Arafat.

[shira]

34. but what can Israel do besides offering what Abbas just rejected in '08 from Olmert?

Are you mad at Abbas for turning down Olmert's offer from last year? The way I see it - and maybe Pelsar too - is that your PA leadership is in no hurry to stop being "shit on" - as Abbas was recently quoted, things are good - what's the big hurry? If he accepted Olmert's offer, the occupation would be over with - isn't that what you want?

As for Arafat, do you think a majority of Palestinians within the OPT and outside (around the Arab world) wanted Arafat to represent them after the 1st Intifada?

Lastly, what do you think of Fayyad's plan to establish state institutions for a defacto state in the near future? I'm all for it and believe that should have started 15 years ago.

Thanks.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. Your new talking points are rather silly.

Either that, your seriously don't get it.


Please try to wrap you head around this: You know how you live in a country in which you can vote, have your vote count, drive from CA to NJ without checkpoint, visit your capital, go to any synagogue you want, in any state, even Washington? You know how you can get on a plane and fly pretty much anywhere? You know how you can send your kid to another country for college? You know how you can attend an international conference in your chosen field? You know how you can expect the kids you bear to grow up, become educated, marry and have a family? You know how you can expect to live in your home without it being busted into by violent soldiers? YOu can expect to live your life without seeing your children hauled off to prison in the middle of the night? You expect that you can inherit land and people won't show up with guns and tanks and move you from it?

Believe it or not Shira, and I realize this may be tough for you, but... the people in the WB AND GAZA (whom you conveniently leave out) are human beings JUST LIKE YOU. They have families, they work, they raise children, they laugh, they socialize. They want those very same things... JUST LIKE YOU!!! Imagine that!

So, while you may have a hard time wrapping your head around the idea that people aren't jumping at half-freedoms, to live in cantons disconnnected from their capital and completely cut off from Gaza, under what promises to be a glorified settler occupation, I urge to ask yourself:

IS what olmsert offered a real deal? WOULD THIS CUT IT FOR ME?

I would warrant a guess that the answer would be "no."

Repeat after me, dear shira: the goal isn't "making things better." The goal is NATIONAL LIBERATION.

[shira]

37. I seriously don't get what you're saying - which is why I'm asking

1. Do you seriously believe that all you can get here in America, you'll be able to get in a Palestinian state ruled by Fatah or Hamas? I'm thinking the best you'd get is what you see around the neighborhood, like in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, or Jordan.

2. Olmert's latest offer of 93% of the W.Bank (due to settlements hugging the green line) make disconnected "cantons" an absurd impossibility - making me wonder where you're getting your info. from. But for the sake of argument, let's say Olmert's offer taking ~ 7 percent was compensated with land swaps that made for a 100% deal with a contiguous and completely connected Palestine, you'd still be against that?

3. Again, do you think a majority of Palestinians 20 years ago during Intifada I wanted Arafat representing them instead of the grassroots leadership? And what do you think of Fayyad's de-facto state plan?

[shira]

38. kick for PM

[Vegasaurus]

39. Guess those questions don't merit an answer, Shira nt

[ArabInIsrael]

40. Insanity in the West

The problem with people who view the Israel/Palestinian conflict from American/European media is that they tend to receive a very saturated and often perverted perspective of how the conflict operates. It seems very few Americans and Europeans understand just how aggressive the Palestinian government is about controlling image and media.

The problem is perception. If BBC, ABC, or the Guardian didn't print it...it never happened. Whatever Israel says, Zionist propaganda. Whatever America says, lapdog for Israel. Anything that remotely conflicts with colonizing Palestinian narrative is immediately responded with mindless-anti-Zionism, which is mostly built on fantasy to begin with.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, read this:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804588639&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Khaled Abu Toameh is very popular journalists here in Israel. I've met him once, nice guy. He has a rather accurate assessment of what is going on:

http://www.meforum.org/604/telling-the-truth-about-the-palestinians

Now, back on topic. As an Arab living in Israel, I've always found it odd why the West cares so much about us. I always seem to here about how horrible Arabs are treated in Israel, the "apartheid" and institutionalized "racism" against ethnic minorities. At times I laugh because this couldn't be farther from the truth.

Israel is an imperfect country, but it has a respectable government with checks and balances. There is a natural tension between Jews and us, but its not systematic nor a "struggle for land" as I see in the headlines of BBC every hour. I personally have never been spat on, shielded, or made fun of. We go to the same gyms, eat the same restaurants, and attend the same universities. I've had my fair share of dealing with ultra-nationalists who want to "finish the job" but for the most part they are few and far between. Certainly not the mainstream as the West likes the portray Israel.

Don't think this is peace and leave, there have been fights - real ones - but not even comparable to the stoning of homosexuals in Gaza, or active persecution of religious and sexual minorities in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc....

This MUST be understood. The Arab despots have spent billions buying out universities and journalists to paint this illusion. Recruiting mouthpieces like Jimmy Carter (received 10+ million from the Wahhabist oil states) or sponsoring anti-Apartheid movements in London, etc..

What has happened is that Israel as a country has become pejorative. It is no longer a sovereign entity, it is a foreign policy objective. It is a cancer in the Middle East, blah blah blah. It has become so demonized in the eyes of the West that when people look at my passport I get dirty look. And I'm talking about airports in Scotland. XD

Perhaps my opinion is of less importance because I am a Christian and have a disgust for the heavy-Islam saturated Palestinian agenda. I am no loyal Zionist and don't have a perpetual erection for Israel but I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing about the poor poor Palestinians.

I was in Lebanon when the PLO torched my home and raped my neighbors. I was visiting family in Hebron when I witnessed my first ever suicide bombing. This is the story:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=294128&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

I am SO SICK of seeing these thugs get to dictate peace terms. I can't say I condone Israel's heavy-handed approach to dealing with terror but I can empathize with the government's apathy towards the Palestinian agenda. As Israel has given up more land and concessions, poured billions into the Palestinian authority, subsidized their living and grants them access to hospitals, health care, etc...no response is made.

Nothing. In spite of all the power and wealth, representation in the media, teams of Harvard punks ready to cut themselves for Palestine....they demand more.

WTF?! I supported the Oslo Accords because I bought into the Arab propaganda. The Palestinian victimhood. I took for granted the privileges I receive in Israel even though I showed no loyalty to it. I voted for Maki (Arab communist party) in my first election for fricks sake.

I realize what a joke this is. The Palestinian leadership of today is simply an extension of Arab imperialism. Hamas and Hezbollah are an Iranian proxy and do their bidding. Fatah isn't even better, and the PLO (umbrella organization) is detestable.

These represent the "resistance". I put in Hezbollah because its partied with Hamas and plays a crucial role in wars.

THESE LEADERS make decisions on behalf of the Palestinians. Have you all forgotten about Arafat's palace in Paris? How about the Palestinian penthouses in London? Swiss Bank accounts?

Do you remember when the Arafat stole UNRWA food and sold it on the black market? How about when he extorted his own people? Do you remember the costly wars in Lebanon, Jordan, hijacking airplanes...torching embassies, assassinations...? No, you probably don't. You probably think the Palestinians are just pissed and hunkered because teh evil Zionazis are occupying them. This is what I believed since birth. Took me years to slowly get out of that state.

Is this making sense America? Why do you continue to extort Israel? No doubt Israel's addiction to military aid enables the US administration to meddled in her affairs, and at times that meddling goes against Israel's best interests. But why?

Why do you care so much? Are you truly upset that US-made weapons killing Palestinians somehow gives your country that right to reduce Israel to satan?

Where is your frustration at your country's support for Egypt's military? 1.5 billion a year. A country that supports the genocide in Darfur and arms Al-Shabaab in Somalia. American-made planes have been implicated in transporting goods and foodstuffs to the Islamist rebels in Mogadishu. Egypt's also been suspected of executing Sudanese refugees in Sinai. I know at least 30 Sudanese fleeing to the Negav by Egyptian border patrol.

Of course, no moral outrage. No Israel to demonize!

The Palestinians assassinated the US Ambassador to Sudan. They assassinated Robert F. Kennedy. They celebrated in the streets after 9/11. They sided with Saddam during the Gulf War. They applauded China for its brutal actions during the tiananmen square protest.

They've offered nothing to the USA or the West except terrorism and propaganda. Why do you guys care so much about giving them a state? WHY? Does the world need another Arab state? We have 23 of them. All are despotic, all contribute nothing to humanity.

Israel, in spite of NOT being loaded with oil, has done more than Einstein:

*Cell phones
*Cancer treatments
*Weapons systems (Arrow Missile)
*Medical innovations. Cancer research, etc.
*Computers - Windows XP and Vista developed by Microsoft Israel. So is word.
*Instant messaging
*Military technology and tactics. Israel trains commandos in Georgia, India, used to support the Christians in Sudan, etc...

All while fighting wars and in a perpetual state of world-criticism.

All I'm doing is making a case. Israel poses NO threat to the West, has never called for the genocide of any group of people, and does not want to own the world.

Why do you care so much about the Arabs? Because they are intimidating? Because they fight Jews?

Put this for size:

Since 1998, 9,000 people have been killed in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Mostly in conflicts STARTED by the enemy.

Since 2003, the Arab League-sponsored genocide in Darfur has killed 400,000 black muslims and christians. I was rather ignorant until I met a pair of Sudanese refugees in Tel Aviv seeking amnesty.

Get this, they were muslim. Waving Israel flags with tears in their eyes, they told me about all the crazy crap that goes there that no one talks about.

And get this, most of the weapons Hamas receives comes from the Arab genocide in Darfur. Makes sense, Israel bombed half a dozen trucks in Sudan suspected of carrying weapons.

Noam Chomsky claims bulldozing homes of suicide bombers is state-terror, well what about the whole-sale destruction of 1,000 Sudanese villages? Thousands raped, some by UN peacekeepers, and the rest slaughtered senselessly by the Arabs. Every attempt to recognize this genocide in the UN and apply an appropriate international response has been steamrolled by the Arab bloc and non-alignment movement, both in the General Assembly and the Muslim-controlled Human Rights Council.

So those who cite UN reports like gold need to actually read them. Most of the time, they are written by the villain.

Point is, the Middle East is a brutal reality. Israel's contributions to human rights is marginal compared to our neighbors. I love how people say we are child-killers, when if you look at the civilian to target ratio it is 2:1. 50% minimum, in virtually all of our wars. You might laugh at that, but America's war in Iraq has killed 1,000,000 since 2003. 10 times the amount killed in the Arab-Jew conflict of the last 90 years. The next best military has a 10:1 ratio.

Israel has always been more supportive of the peace process. in 2000, 80% of Israelis supported a 2 state solution. Less than 40% of Palestinians did, and on different terms...some truly bizarre.


I know this is a really long rant, but I hope for the sake of humanity that the world focuses on other problems. I am sick and tired of turning on the news and hearing about the poor poor Palestinians. Yeah, the poor poor Palestinians that are world-record holders in humanitarian aid. More than Congo, Somalia, and Sudan combined.

600,000,000 from the UN per year, mostly subsidized by the US government. 500,000,000 in Israeli taxes annually, and 500,000,000 goods exported into Gaza annually. This is on top of the ~200mill Pals receive from the EU every year, and 100 million Hamas makes a MONTH off the tunnels and price-fixing/levies on Palestinian businesses etc...

PLO alone makes 2 billion a year simply from drug-smuggling, weapons dealing, and foreign donations.

The PLO has a combined networth of 50 billion supposedly, 1/4 of Israel's GDP. These aren't stone-throwers, these are wealthy despots who jizz in their pants at DU lefties defending their "resistance."

I NO longer support the Palestinian agenda. I believe in returning to the 67' border. Give Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank (Samaria) back to Jordan - with the exception of Jerusalem. Jordan and the Arabs forfeited their right to Jerusalem when they did not agree to Israel's request to stay out of the war.

I sympathize with the millions of people in the world who get to die because they aren't Palestinian. They don't reflect Arab foreign policy objectives, they don't sell newspapers in the West, and they don't give "human rights" activist a purpose in life. The millions that die at the hands of Arab despots. The millions that die in America's neocon wars, and the millions that die under the Asian dictatorships.

6 million children starve to death every year. you want to know something? No a single one of them is Palestinian. This rather minute conflict has generated far too much drama, and because of it, areas of crisis have been ignored in favor of Palestinian press.

Take this from someone who has lived in Israel, odds are you simply don't know this country. you sit thousands of miles away reading DemocracyNow and BBC. amnesty international tells how we are Nazis and relish in killing Palestinians.

It's all a load. Wake up America. Soon your embassies and planes might be getting hijacked-en mass. Will you cut off California in hopes for peace?

LOL!

[Violet_Crumble]

41. That was strange. You sound exactly like an American repeat-it-by-rote pro-Israeli shill...

But kudos for being the funniest post of the day!

[ArabInIsrael]

42. Funnest post of the day...

Israel is the only country which is qualified with "pro" or "anti."

No one is "pro" or "anti" Russia, China, Saudi Arabia...but with ze Judens...yes!

I'm glad American scoff beats reality. Maybe Israel should start exporting Jewish terrorism to the streets of D.C and see how quick you start singing a different tune. That seems to be the moral standard among the "progressives."

[Violet_Crumble]

43. What's with that 'ze Judens' shit?

I think you should read the posting rules before going any further. Also, not saying yr doing anything so lame as to pretend to be an Israeli Arab when yr just yet another rabid 'pro-Israel' type posting from somewhere in the US, but the mods can see our IP addresses and if anyone were to pretend to be from somewhere they're not, that could be a bit embarressing for them to realise that the mods know that they're bullshitting....

btw, I don't give a shit who exports what to the streets of DC. It's not even in my hemipshere!

[ArabInIsrael]

44. violet

I've been in the USA since December cause of the conflict. though I'm on a laptop that I bought in beersheba, it sucks a lot.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Maybe you could change yr name to something realistic?

ArabWithAmnesia might work for you, given that you seem to be awfully confused about where yr actually located from one post to the next? Anyway, happy to be able to give you a timely heads-up so you could come up with that save in order to avoid any egg on face when it comes to IP addresses and yr location!

[azurnoir]

47. Gee I had been thinking that maybe

Khaled abu Tomeh had joined the board ;-)

[Violet_Crumble]

50. I'm just impressed that they've covered all the Hasbara talking points in just a few posts! n/t

[ArabInIsrael]

48. Cordial much?

I'm sorry, I consider myself an ArabInIsrael. Does this mean I have to be IN Israel 24/7? No, it does not. But I've lived there all my life, born in Jaffa and moved around Norther Israel.

I know, an Arab who supports the state he lives in. How evil and sinister. I should probably hate my country and adopt the POV of our enemies.

Yes, the European and American way.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Lack of gratitude much?

You said in yr first post you live in Israel. Then you say you moved to the US last year, so that means yr not an ArabInIsrael. I was just helping you keep yr cover going, but I won't help again if you don't appreciate it....

I've never told anyone this before, but I'm actually an Equadorian in Europe! Pleased to meet you! ;)

[ArabInIsrael]

54. Yup

Yeah I live in Israel, I moved to America temporarily. Family here, etc.

Glad to see the rabid hatred of Israel knows no bounds. God forbid there be an Arab who *gasp* doesn't hate Israel.

Zomg11!!

[Violet_Crumble]

56. That's lovely...

Not sure how you manage to see some rabid hatred of Israel in anything here. And not too sure why you seem to think that everyone here thinks all Arabs hate Israel....

[azurnoir]

51. Oh you do not have to "hate your country" to disagree with

or even really dislike its leaders, as a Democrat "librul" American I have experienced this many times but you see your post spoke of the black or white its this or that we see here from many of our ProIsrael or Pro-Occupation folk here
I mean as an Israeli Arab how do feel about Lieberman and his party?

[ArabInIsrael]

55. Problems

The very fact that America has "pro-occupation" pro-Israel folks is a problem. you denounce the black and white theme yet America and Europe have overwhelmingly institutionalized it. No one talks about the Arab occupation of Western Sahara and the illegal settlements there. No one talks about the 1,100 mile wall that cuts right into impovished Yemen, nor the 3,000 kilometers line of control between Pakistan and India.

There is little opinion on the whole-sale Arab genocide of the christians and black muslims of Darfur. Countries that have spent billions buying out the universities and creating anti-Jewish Middle East and Islamic studies programs. Countries that cry for Palestinians yet kill more than Israel ever has or ever will, and at the same time owe billions in pledged donations while the USA and Israel remain the dominant, humanitarian supporter.

This is not a matter of being pro-Israel or pro-occupation, it is a matter of reality. The arabs are in the 7th century, more muslims have been murdered in honor killings than the Arab-Israeli conflict. In a single year more muslims are murdered than the 4 years of the 2nd intifada.

As an Israeli Arab I care little about Liebermna's party. For the most part, pro-Israel activism does not hurt the Palestinian general pop, only the power hungry and extremely rich leadership. Arafat was a billionaire, don't you know? Richer than the President of the USA!

How did he get so rich? did he invest in Bernie Madoff?

Wake up America, Israel is a tiny, tiny part, a small facet in the greater Arab wars, most of which has simply been Arabs fighting Arabs and Muslims fighting muslims, independent of American foreign policy or Israeli occupation.

Being a citizen of Israel and one who has witnessed suicide bombings and attacks, while you sit in a home thousands of miles away from war, typing away on internet forums and boasting about how invested you are in exposing the Israel lobby for what is it: 5 million American Jews concerned about the welfare of 5.3 million other Jews who are surrounded by desert despots who have sacrificed their economy, society, and civilization to fight Israel - a country that poses ZERO threat to their sovereignty.

When's the last time you fought a home-war? 19th century?

[azurnoir]

57. Thank you but one more question

are you a Christian or Muslim Arab or a Jewish Arab it would greatly help clarify your stance here and because I read threads you used the term Juden something or other.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. Why would an Israeli-Arab not care about attempts to pass anti-Arab laws?

That makes no sense. You think laws discriminating against the Arab population of Israel aren't anything to care about?

[ArabInIsrael]

61. Uh?

What laws would that be?

we have more rights, more freedoms, and have 1000x higher standard of living in a Jewish state than an Europe one.

1,000 Palestinian homosexuals live in Tel Aviv, they emigrated to Israel when Hamas took over. Why? Because they would have been killed by Hamas.

Fatah recruits homosexuals to become suicide bombers as it will "cleanse them" of their sins.

As far as I'm concerned, I can deal with the occasionally discrimination than live in Arab despotism. At least the political system here is real, unlike the rest of the region where rulers live in a perpetual state of power.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Yr not even aware of the attempts to pass anti-Arab laws in Israel?

Why doesn't that surprise me? ;)


'The government's latest set of proposals – such as the plan to ban the word "nakba" from school textbooks, and to link schools' funding to their success rate in sending students to enlist in the army – have rubbed salt into wounds that continue to fester throughout the Arab community, culminating in the decision to down tools and speak out against their treatment.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/14/israeli-arabs-general-strike

I've never met anyone like you who condones discrimination against what they claim are their own people.....

Also, where's 'here'? Yr not pretending that yr in Israel again, are you? Gosh, what else are you pretending to be? ;)

[ArabInIsrael]

64. LOL

Wtf? Why would Israel allow a narrative that denies Israel's legitimacy? Seriously?

The Nabka is complete Arab propaganda designed to ignore the reality of the civil war, the origins of it, the Palestine riots, hebron massacre, and create the illusion that the Zionists existence is rooted in wiping away Arabs.

Why should a country allow this to be taught in class? Does USA education teach its students this is Native American's land, that they exterminated the indigenous population, colonized the continent, forcefully stole Northern California in an offensive war, and their entire existence is wrong?

NO. Does British teach its students that its whole existence is predicated on the exploitation of the 3rd world, that their status as a world power required the lives of 30,000,000 people in India. That the base of their current success is rooted in the theft of another civilization and its people?

NO. this is not discrimination, this is simply propaganda. Propaganda designed to divide Israel and segregate the Arabs and the Jews from each other.

The Guardian is notorious for its anti-Israeli spin. Notice its lack of reporting when the Palestinians refused to allow the holocaust be taught in US/EU-subsidized schools in Gaza and the West Bank. Why? Because, the "Holocaust is a lie invented by the Zionists."

Israel has the most scientists per capita than any nation on Earth. It has more technological inventions per capita than the USA and Europe combined, and has done more for the world than the entire muslim world.

No doubt discrimination occurs but Israel is not perfect. In Syria a blogger was thrown in jail for 3 years simply for criticizing the government. In Europe, universities are teaching Israel owns the planet, and Saudi-funded studies at Cambridge and Oxford have wiped away classic Bernard Lewis for Edward Said and Noam Chomsky enlightenment.

Read a book.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. For someone who claims to be Arab, you certainly do appear to detest Arabs...

Allowing the nakba to be mentioned in text books isn't denying the legitimacy of Israel. It'd be showing some maturity and acknowledging the suffering of another people, something neither Israelis nor Palestinians seem keen to acknowledge when it comes to each other...

Why should a country allow its own history, even if it is a dark one, to be taught in class? Because it's teaching kids what actually happened. In Australia, children are now taught about our own really dark history when it comes to what was done to the Aboriginals....

Sorry, but it is discrimination when the Israeli govt is trying to introduce laws that discriminate against the Arab citizens of Israel. The funding thing that you ignored is another case where they've attempted to introduce discriminatory laws....

Why are you telling me to read a book? That makes as little sense as much else you've been posting here...

[LeftishBrit]

67. Europaean universities do not teach that Israel owns the planet!

I don't know where you got that idea from.

[azurnoir]

46. Oh I think the same things could be applied to any country

America comes to mind.

[LeftishBrit]

52. Only country in the world?

China, just a few examples:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2008/04/prochina_protests_sweep_the_web_lets_talk.html

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/the-china-post/joe-hung/2009/09/07/223629/Post-LDP-Japan.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/world/economic-deal-sparks-prochina-stance-claims-20090519-be8q.html

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/03/anti-china-tensions-on-the-rise-in-australia/


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E0DA1E3DF935A35752C0A96F9C8B63

Russia:

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3656272.ece

http://www.cdi.org/russia/Johnson/2009-60-53.cfm

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Russian_sentiment



And I don't have to tell you how often 'pro-American' and 'anti-American' are used.

[ArabInIsrael]

53. Disproportionate

China has been collaborating with North Korea in turning in any citizen who is fleeing NK oppression back to the mainland where they are summarily executed.

China also has a long, systematic history of oppressing ethnic religious minorities that has gone relatively unnoticed.

Russia staged a terrorist attack to justify a war. A war that has killed more people in 15 years than the 90 years of conflict between the Jews and the Arabs.

This is the same deal with HRW. They claim they give time to other countries, they are correct.

But it's like this.

400,000 killed in Darfur since 2003 - 3 reports

9,000 killed in Israel since 1998 - 3 reports

5,800,000 killed in Congo since 1998 - 3 reports


This is the reality. Favoring Palestinian problems disproportionately is suspect and justifies the onslaught of criticism from pro-Jewish activists and even neutral parties.

To write it off as knee-jerk activism and Israel lobbying is a disservice to humanity and the rights of millions who get to die because they aren't Palestinian.

Wake up Brit. Your country is very complicit in this.

[LeftishBrit]

59. I'm getting confused here...

I agree that conflicts in African countries are often neglected, and that the violence is much worse in some such countries than in the Israel-Palestine conflict. However, you seem to imply that if people weren't concerned about the Palestinians, they would be rushing to sort out the situation in the Congo instead. This is not the case. It's not a zero-sum game, and probably more people in the West are concerned about the Middle East because of its greater links to the West, not because the Palestinians - or Israelis - have demanded and got disproportionate support.

(By the way, for anyone who is genuinely interested in contributing to peace in the Congo and some other places, please consider reading about and if possible supporting the Peace Direct movement, www.peacedirect.org.)

Your original argument was that people define themselves as 'pro' or 'anti' Israel, but not as 'pro' or 'anti' Russia or China. My links were to point out that this is not the case. People tend to define themselves as 'pro' or 'anti' many countries, especailly those currently involved in conflicts.

[ArabInIsrael]

60. major problem with media

Your original argument holds no water. No one is "pro" or "anti" Russia, china, saudi arabia. No talks about the Russia, China, Asian, Saudi, Oil, arms lobby like they do the Zionist ones.

More people are concerned in the West because the media favors the Palestinians over the everyone else.

The obsession has little to do with "ties to the West." Jews have always been the object of obsession since Abraham. 1800 years of institutionalized antisemitism in Europe doesn't turn off overnight.

Let be break it down. When an Islamist blows himself up - and trust me, more people have died from suicide bombings than all the casualties of the arab-israeli conflict - Jews and non-Muslims do not start attacking muslims.

When a bomb blows up like one did in the Ashdod Port attack, people did not start attacking muslims in Israel. Jews did not hassle Arab-Israelis, and Europeans did not hassle Muslims. If Jews were to hassle muslims in Israel, they would be arrested - as some have in the past. However, in Europe, it's becoming socially and morally acceptable.

Remember when that british journalist won an award for the picture that showed Sharon eating Palestinian children?

When asked why the cartoonist chose Israel over the Palestinians, he said: "Jews don't issue fatwas."

At best, Jews and activists will write a scathing report in the Wall Street Journal and Post, meet with leadership and tell them how wrong x is, or promote very hasbara activities. They aren't going to send kill orders to Katya Adler, Jeremy Bowen, Tim Franks, etc...no matter how much they libel Israel. However, simply painting a picture of Mohamed is a death-sentence. I remember Sweden hid behind a wall of freedom of speech when they published the organ-harvesting joke, but when journalists tried to public the islamic parody cartoons the government stopped the media.

Why is this?

Whenever something happens in the ME, antisemitic incidents skyrocket, triple, or in Holland's case 10x more than average. Million march protests, parades, homes torched, rabbis stabbed, graves graffiti, and this is all honky dory.

The Muslim states have spent billions on univerisites, activist groups, and apartheid-movements to isolate Israel from the West. In the UN, they control the UNGA and UNHRC. Saudi Arabia continues to be involved in designing boycotts even thought it agreed not to.

MS has realized the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a very lucrative business, so they compromise journalist integrity to meet the demands. Journalists cannot admit how intimidated they are by the Palestinian government or how much it costs them to buy access into the Palestinian Authority. If they were to expose the media-control that goes on there, they would be banned or worse, killed.

When the PLO returned to Gaza and the WB the government threw out the media. Arafat ordered all media not under his thumb to be turned over to Israel or deported. Even Palestinian journalists.

Many Palestinian journalists, such as Khaled Abu Tomaeh, spent years under the PLO and have written much about the corruption that goes on. Remember al-dura, jenin, Hezbollah staging photographs, France 2 scandal...?

The kind of pack mentality where people believe Israel are child-killers or civilian killers is preposterous. Only a group-think could spin the image of Israelis as killers of civilians, when Israel has by far the lowest rate of civilian casualties in the world - a 2:1 ratio of target to civilian vs. a 1:10 ratio for the next best.

This is the reality. The West only cares about Israel because the media cares about Israel, well...and the story is worth far more than the truth. It's come to a point where state-run Arab media is more critical of the Palestinian narrative, especially Hamas.

This isn't simply limited to the Jews either. The Christians in Pakistan, minorities in Egypt, women-slave trade in Saudi Arabia, and the Islamic-organization's complicity in the Darfur genocide have all been ignored, while the most incomplete and unverified story about Israel is published without hesitation, even after it is debunked.

[LeftishBrit]

62. People certainly talk about the Oil and Arms lobbies

and about the Saudi lobby (especially in my country where it is quite influential). Pro- and anti-Chinese and Russian lobbies too.

I don't deny that there are groups that have a particular obsession with the 'Israel lobby'. I have frequently complained about excessive attribution of power to this 'lobby', especially when it is blamed for the actions of other countries. However, it is not the case that the entire media is preoccupied with this at the expense of other concerns. Some people are. Some have other preoccupations. Some are just all-round xenophobes.

There are far more British journalists obsessed with whipping up hostility to immigrants, gypsies and the EU than to Israel.

[ArabInIsrael]

65. Doubtful

You are illusion LeftishBrit. The massive demonstrations, millions people marching against Israel, some of the biggest terror charities are based in London.

Proportionally speaking, Israel receives more criticism and obsession than China, Russia, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia combined.

And no one ever talks about the Saudi lobby. How they practically own the United Nations Human Rights Council, are allowed to export terror to the Palestinians and sponsor genocides in Europe, all while donating billions to universities in Europe - funding "Islamic" and "Middle East" studies programs.

Wonder why? Why are the Saudis spending so much money on Europe and the West? Oh yeah, the demonize Israel and protect their crimes/subjugation/genocides.

[FarrenH]

68. Saudi Arabia practically owns the UNHCR?

*snort*

Someone took a big sip of the right-wing koolaid