Falk: Goldstone is historic blow in the war Israel is losing– the ‘Legitimacy War’

[bemildred]

Two listservs to which I have access have been circulating a commentary by Richard Falk, the Princeton law professor and UN rapporteur on Gaza, on the Goldstone report to the UN Human Rights Council. People I trust say that Falk, who by the way is Jewish (as is Goldstone), wrote this, and they are encouraging its wide distribution. So here it is below. UPDATE: I am told the piece appeared in the English-language Turkish paper Today’s Zaman.

The important points come near the end: that the rather conservative findings of the report (and its acceptance of Israel’s dubious right to self-defense–dubious because Gaza is effectively occupied), have acted as a "bombshell" in Israel because Goldstone calls for action, and because the report contributes to the fraying of Jewish support for Israel and to the "Legitimacy War" that Israel has been losing in the eyes of the world. "A historic contribution" to the Palestinian struggle for justice, Falk concludes.

WHY THE GOLDSTONE REPORT MATTERS (IX/19/2009)

Richard Falk

“So why did the Israeli government boycott the commission? The real answer is quite simple: they knew full well that the commission, any commission, would have to reach the conclusions it did reach.”

-- Uri Avnery (Israeli peace activist, and former Knesset member), “On the Goldstone Report” 19 Sept 2009

Richard Goldstone, former judge of South Aftica’s Constitutional Court, the first prosecutor at The Hague on behalf of the International Criminal Court for Former Yugolavia, and anti-apartheid campaigner reports that he was most reluctant to take on the job of chairing the UN fact-finding mission charged with investigating allegations of war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas during the three week Gaza War of last winter. Goldstone explains that his reluctance was due to the issue being “deeply charged and politically loaded,” and was overcome because he and his fellow commissioners were “professionals committed to an objective, fact-based investigation,” adding that “above all, I accepted because I believe deeply in the rule of law and the laws of war,” as well as the duty to protect civilians to the extent possible in combat zones. The four-person fact-finding mission was composed of widely respected and highly qualified individuals, including the distinguished international law scholar, Christine Chinkin, a professor at the London School of Economics. Undoubtedly adding complexity to Goldstone’s decision is the fact that he is Jewish, with deep emotional and family ties to Israel and Zionism, bonds solidified by his long association with several organizations active in Israel.

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/09/falk-goldstone-bombshell-will-fray-jewish-support-for-israel.html

[shira]

1. LOL.....the same Goldstone Report which in paragraph 414, pages 126-127 accepts conflicting...

...testimony from one Islam Shahwan (the guy who just recently accused Israel of distributing horny gum)?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3746017,00.html

:eyes:

historic blow?

the report matters?

to whom? idiots?

[azurnoir]

2. For a report that supposedly matters so little

you are certainly expending an unusual amount of time telling people that it matters so little.

And while I am here I can answer the comment from this thread too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x287921#288136

If Kemp was not on the ground with IDF in Gaza at the time of OCL he could only recite what he knew of IDF from his personal military network, not what was going on at that time

[shira]

3. sorry, don't mean to be nasty but you're not worth my time

if it were between believing Goldstone or Kemp, you're more likely to say that Kemp's the one talking out of his ass, not Goldstone.

seriously, i have better things to do with my time.

[azurnoir]

9. LOL but you see Goldstone was in Gaza- Kemp was not

its that simple, your suggestion that Kemp just somehow knew what was going on in Gaza from his armchair in in the UK is well, you are a true believer.
as to being not worth your time note, thank you, its a relief for us both I am sure

[shira]

10. LOL - Goldstone was in Gaza months after the fighting - and spoonfed info. from Hamas

of course, Goldstone's cronies call them "Gaza officials" whose testimony throughout the mission went unquestioned.

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

11. All of your analysis of the Goldstone report leaves out one fact

Israel could have done the same as Hamas and refused, it is analogous to a student refusing to take a test because "teacher doesn't like me" and then complaining afterwords because that refusal lowered his grade and claiming again its because teacher doesn't like me
But I am finding your true belief here almost cute

[shira]

16. Israel refusing to cooperate w/ Goldstone doesn't excuse Goldstone from lying and covering for Hamas

Here's CNN video for you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgpg3ZexGJo&feature=player_embedded#t=15

How does Israel not participating with Hamas excuse Goldstone for totally ignoring all sorts of evidence like that?

In Goldstone's Report, it states numerous times there is no evidence Hamas forced Gazans to be shields.

Are you okay with Goldstone ignoring evidence and testimony like that, perhaps because you believe demonizing Israel at the cost of using Palestinians as expendable pawns fine? So long as Israel is demonized?

Here's another one...

The Abd Rabbo family kept quiet while Hamas fighters turned their farm in the Gaza strip into a fortress. Right now they are waiting for the aid promised by the movement after Israel bombed the farm and turned it into ruins...

The hill on which the Abd Rabbo family lives overlooks the Israeli town Sderot, a fact that turned it into an ideal military position for the Palestinian fighters, from which they have launched hundreds of rockets into southern Israel during the last few years. Several of the Abd Rabbo family members described how the fighters dug tunnels under their houses, stored arms in the fields and launched rockets from the yard of their farm during the nights.

The Abd Rabbo family members emphasize that they are not activists and that they are still loyal to the Fatah movement, but that they were unable to prevent the armed squads from entering their neighborhood at night. One family member, Hadi (age 22) said: "You can't say anything to the resistance , or they will accuse you of collaborating and shoot you in the legs."
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 27, 2009

And there's plenty more of this if you're really interested (which I doubt you are).

[azurnoir]

18. Yes there was plenty and a search of DU provided it

Abed Rabbo Abed Rabu or Abd Rabbo as you chose for your purposes you brought up the incident in this comment were you were attempting to exhonorate or make justifiable IDF's killing 3 of the children aged 2,4, and 6 years of that family and cast doubt on the story altogether it is here in this link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=255218#259010

I find your now using the Israeli Foreign Ministries (MFA) abbreviated version as proof positive of Goldstone being a liar nothing less than callous and sickening

[shira]

20. and now I rest my case - hope we're done now

[azurnoir]

21. Your giving it a rest I doubt it

your case here seems to be that when this particular family says something that you find useful in your quest to prove the IDF did nothing wrong in Gaza they're telling the truth but when their story does fit your narrative they're lying, kind of tying yourself in knots

[shira]

22. you're missing the point entirely

Your contention is that if only Israel cooperated, the report might be more fair. I responded by showing how incredibly dishonest the report is, with evidence readily available without Israel having to participate. It's really pathetic that Israel is being blamed for Goldstone completely disregarding the video testimony from CNN and the article on Abd Rabbo in the Palestinian newspaper - as though it's incumbent on Israel to keep Goldstone and his cronies honest by insisting they use such information (and more like it) in their report.

As for Abd Rabbo, it appears FAR more likely that Hamas actually used them as shields and that later on, they were pressured to cover for Hamas and make up a story. What other better alternative is there to all the conflicting testimony in this story?

[azurnoir]

23. You must believe yourself to be psychic

but sadly you are wrong, my contention was quite plainly stated in the post to which you are replying

[shira]

24. can you even remember from one post to the next what you're writing about?

Look at your post #11 above and explain to me how Israel participating with the UNHRC would have led to Goldstone accounting for evidence that he intentionally ignored. Why do you believe that if only Israel participated, then Goldstone would have accounted for evidence and facts that he deliberately ignored?

As for Abd Rabbo, why do you believe only his testimony against the IDF (and which testimony would that be since his stories change from one newspaper to the next)? Why not take into account the story in the Palestinian newspaper about Hamas using his home and his family as shields? Why should that story not even be considered?

[azurnoir]

25. Lol Shira do you remember your own posts ?

from your post #22

As for Abd Rabbo, it appears FAR more likely that Hamas actually used them as shields and that later on, they were pressured to cover for Hamas and make up a story. What other better alternative is there to all the conflicting testimony in this story?

they were pressured to cover for Hamas yet are willing to speak to a publication as to how Hamas used them? Those two facts seem to contradict each other wouldn't you say?

Actually I will be awaiting to see how you spin this one

[shira]

26. sheesh - that was their original story. Hamas didn't like it so they changed it. And you bought it

just like Islam Shahwan, who was quoted as telling Gazan "police" to face the zionist enemy. He later changed his story when pressed and the Goldstone commission bought it without question - even though Shahwan is the guy who accused Israel of distributing horny gum.

[azurnoir]

27. I would suggest you recheck your dates n/t

[bemildred]

28. Israel, presumably, has a great deal of information about what was done and why.

Information that would not be available anywhere else, and that would not be subject to manipulation by anyone else. They made a large mistake with yet to be seen consequences in deciding not to participate.

[shira]

29. it doesn't matter what info Israel has available....Goldstone ignored lots of evidence already....

so what makes you think he wouldn't ignore, explain away, or minimize anything Israel hasn't disclosed yet?

[bemildred]

30. I'm afraid I don't have your ability to predict from false hypotheticals.

I think one would have to do the experiment to see how it comes out. And it just seems to me that it would look better if they cooperated rather than stonewalling. Stonewalling does raise questions.

What makes you think they don't have lots of good exculpatory information that would compel a better outcome?

[shira]

31. have you been keeping up? here are some examples...

CNN video of Hamas forcing Palestinians to be shields...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgpg3ZexGJo&feature=player_embedded#t=15

PA newspaper reporting the same thing...

The Abd Rabbo family kept quiet while Hamas fighters turned their farm in the Gaza strip into a fortress. Right now they are waiting for the aid promised by the movement after Israel bombed the farm and turned it into ruins...

The hill on which the Abd Rabbo family lives overlooks the Israeli town Sderot, a fact that turned it into an ideal military position for the Palestinian fighters, from which they have launched hundreds of rockets into southern Israel during the last few years. Several of the Abd Rabbo family members described how the fighters dug tunnels under their houses, stored arms in the fields and launched rockets from the yard of their farm during the nights.

The Abd Rabbo family members emphasize that they are not activists and that they are still loyal to the Fatah movement, but that they were unable to prevent the armed squads from entering their neighborhood at night. One family member, Hadi (age 22) said: "You can't say anything to the resistance , or they will accuse you of collaborating and shoot you in the legs."
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Jan. 27, 2009

Video of Hamas spokesman admitting to human shields...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

That one is especially good, as it was brought up in the Goldstone Report. Check it out for yourself. However, the line about human shields from the spokesman is curiously missing in Goldstone's Report and he says that while morally repugnant, it doesn't constitute evidence of anything. As if the spokesman were uttering nonsense.

The Italian paper 'Corriere della Sera' reported on 21 January 2009...

“Practically all of the tallest buildings in Gaza that were hit by Israeli bombs… had rocket launching pads on their roofs, or were observation decks for the Hamas. They had also put them near the big UN warehouse, which went up in flames.”

same source...

“Magah al Rachmah, aged 25, residing a few dozen meters from the four large buildings of the now seriously damaged health complex, says about this fact: ‘The men of Hamas took refuge mainly in the building that houses the administrative offices of al Quds. They used the ambulances and forced ambulance drivers and nurses to take off their uniforms with the paramedic symbols, so they could blend in better and elude Israeli snipers.’”

“Also, Shifah, the largest hospital in the city, is far from being completely used up. It seems however that its basements are densely occupied. “Hamas had hidden there the emergency cells and the interrogation room for the prisoners of Fatah and the secular left front that had been evacuated from the bombarded Saraja prison,” say the militants of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.”

“The militiamen of Hamas tried on purpose to provoke the Israelis. Often they were young boys, aged 16 or 17, armed with submachine guns. They couldn’t do anything against tanks and jet fighters. They knew they were much weaker. But they wanted them to fire on our houses so they may later accuse them of war crimes.”

Newsweek....

“Suddenly there was a terrific whoosh, louder even than a bomb explosion. It was another of Hamas’ homemade Qassam rockets being launched into Israel — and the mobile launchpad was smack in the middle of the four buildings, where every apartment was full…”

Newsweek again...

“One of the most notorious incidents during the war was the Jan. 15 shelling of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society buildings in the downtown Tal-al Hawa part of Gaza City, followed by a shell hitting their Al Quds Hospital next door; the subsequent fire forced all 500 patients to be evacuated… In the Tal-al Hawa neighborhood nearby, however, Talal Safadi, an official in the leftist Palestinian People’s Party, said that resistance fighters were firing from positions all around the hospital. He shrugged that off, having a bigger beef with Hamas. ‘They failed to win the battle.’”

Sydney Morning Herald....(quoted from Operation in Gaza / Factual and Legal Aspects)

177 The Sydney Morning Herald reported an extensive interview in January 2009 with Muhammad Shriteh, an ambulance driver who evacuated wounded Palestinians from the battle zones. Mr. Shriteh stated that during most of the Gaza Operation, he would “co-ordinate with the Israelis before we pick up patients… so they would not shoot at us.” The more immediate threat was from Hamas, he indicated, because they “would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety.”(173)

178 Mr. Shriteh also reported that one night, after the first week of fighting, “there was a call from a house in Jabaliya.” Because of the urgency of the call, he said, there was no time to arrange his movements with the IDF. Nevertheless, he knew the Israelis were watching him because “I could see the red laser beam on the ambulance and on me.” Mr. Shriteh stated that when he entered the house in Jabaliya he saw three Hamas operatives who had taken cover inside, and that half of the building had already been destroyed. “They were very scared, and very nervous,” he said. “They dropped their weapons and ordered me to get them out, to put them in the ambulance and take them away.” He refused because, he said, he knew that if the IDF saw him, he would not be able to pick up any more wounded people. One of the Hamas operatives, he said, put a gun to his head but he still refused, and then they allowed him to leave.(174)

179 Mr. Shriteh added that during the Gaza Operation, Hamas operatives made several attempts to hijack the ambulance fleet of al-Quds Hospital, located in the Tel al-Hawa neighbourhood in Gaza City. To deny Hamas the use of these ambulances, medical workers “had to get in all the ambulances and make the illusion of an emergency and only come back when had gone.”(175)

=========

Again, what makes you think the IDF bringing extra evidence would make a difference with Goldstone?

Better yet - Goldstone had all this evidence to consider for himself - why is Israel to fault for him ignoring, minimizing, and explaining it all away?

If Goldstone needs Israel to participate in order to keep his commission honest, isn't that ridiculous?

To believe Goldstone did NOT have this evidence when his mission was fact-finding makes Goldstone's commission incompetent.

So is Goldstone incompetent or dishonest? Either way, why should Israel participate with such a committee that has zero credibility?

[bemildred]

32. So, you are happy with things the way they are, no need for change?

Everything is peachy, the best that could be expected? The Israeli government has done a great job of managing this?

[shira]

33. can you try answering at least some of what I just asked and then I'll answer you?

[bemildred]

34. I only answer question when I feel like it.

It is not obligatory, you know. Questions do not in themselves compel answers, as you so ably demonstrate.

Generally I respond to other peoples questions in the way they respond to mine. In your case, that means ignoring your questions and asking something else I find more congenial instead.

[shira]

35. I answer any and all questions - so long as the conversation is 2-way

and what I often notice is that the "pro Palestinian" side rarely, if ever, answers anything tough or difficult, as you ably demonstrate.

[bemildred]

36. Good then:

What makes you think they don't have lots of good exculpatory information that would compel a better outcome?

All I get so far is Goldstone would somehow hide it all and they are all bigots and so on; but it would seem to me that had Israel cooperated and provided lots of exculpatory information, which would all be documented, and had the Goldstone commission ignored and obfuscated that in an egregious way, then Israel would be in a much stronger position than it is in now to critizice the report, because they can (and do) argue that the report is based on the information provided to them, which is what reports are supposed to do, report on the information they have.

[shira]

37. reply

What makes you think they don't have lots of good exculpatory information that would compel a better outcome?

whether they have lots of good exculpatory info. or not wouldn't make a difference...note what was included in the MFA's Gaza Legal Facts and Aspects and totally ignored, minimized, or explained away.

All I get so far is Goldstone would somehow hide it all and they are all bigots and so on; but it would seem to me that had Israel cooperated and provided lots of exculpatory information, which would all be documented, and had the Goldstone commission ignored and obfuscated that in an egregious way, then Israel would be in a much stronger position than it is in now to critizice the report, because they can (and do) argue that the report is based on the information provided to them, which is what reports are supposed to do, report on the information they have.

But the Goldstone commission has ALREADY obfuscated and ignored in a major way - so what makes you think something different would have happened had the IDF participated? Gaza Legal Aspects and Facts was available to Goldstone and instead of accounting for the information within, Goldstone obfuscated and ignored it.

In addition, realize that some major press was given to lawyers and organizations calling for the ouster of one of the commission's members (Chinkin) for the views she publicized soon after OCL. She had no business being in the commission with her biased views. This highly publicized criticism had no impact whatsoever.

In addition to that, Goldstone said he wouldn't participate in the commission unless the mandate was changed in order to hold Hamas also accountable. That mandate was never changed by the UNHRC even though it was requested by Goldstone. And judging by the commission's reluctance to account for the most damaging evidence against Hamas, the UNHRC got it's way again.

Finally, check out all the references I just provided of Hamas human-shielding. Those newspaper articles, youtube video, etc. was easily available to Goldstone and it was all ignored. Are you saying it's Israel's responsibility to see to it that a so-called "fact-finding" mission accounts for very accessible evidence that can be easily retrieved by the likes of you and me? Because if so, what does that say about the commission - are they that incompetent or just dishonest?

[bemildred]

38. Hmm. We don't seem to have got anywhere.

The MFA legals facts website was "launched" on Sept 15, 2009. It doesn't appear to have been available to the Commission. When did the this MFA stuff get published?

[shira]

39. Operation in Gaza: Factual/Legal... was released July 29th and little of it was referenced

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Operation_in_Gaza-Factual_and_Legal_Aspects.htm

[bemildred]

40. Well, no matter, I'm sure all of these defenses will be considered when it goes before the ICC.

The commission seems to have done it's work between 4 May 2009 and 4 August 2009:

5. The Mission convened for the first time in Geneva between 4 and 8 May 2009. Additionally,
the Mission met in Geneva on 20 May, on 4 and 5 July, and between 1 and 4 August 2009. The
Mission conducted three field visits: two to the Gaza Strip between 30 May and 6 June, and
between 25 June and 1 July 2009; and one visit to Amman on 2 and 3 July 2009. Several staff of
the Mission’s secretariat were deployed in Gaza from 22 May to 4 July 2009 to conduct field
investigations.

6. Notes verbales were sent to all Member States of the United Nations and United Nations
organs and bodies on 7 May 2009. On 8 June 2009 the Mission issued a call for submissions
inviting all interested persons and organizations to submit relevant information and
documentation to assist in the implementation of its mandate.

7. Public hearings were held in Gaza on 28 and 29 June and in Geneva on 6 and 7 July 2009.

8. The Mission repeatedly sought to obtain the cooperation of the Government of Israel. After
numerous attempts had failed, the Mission sought and obtained the assistance of the Government
of Egypt to enable it to enter the Gaza Strip through the Rafah crossing.

9. The Mission has enjoyed the support and cooperation of the Palestinian Authority and of the
Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations. Due to the lack of cooperation
from the Israeli Government, the Mission was unable to meet members of the Palestinian
Authority in the West Bank. The Mission did, however, meet officials of the Palestinian
Authority, including a cabinet minister, in Amman. During its visits to the Gaza Strip, the
Mission held meetings with senior members of the Gaza authorities and they extended their full
cooperation and support to the Mission.

10. Subsequent to the public hearings in Geneva, the Mission was informed that a Palestinian
participant, Mr. Muhammad Srour, had been detained by Israeli security forces when returning
to the West Bank and became concerned that his detention may have been a consequence of his
appearance before the Mission. The Mission is in contact with him and continues to monitor
developments.

[shira]

41. they had from july 29 to sept 15 to go over the MFA report and decided to ignore it

...just as they ignored evidence all over the internet (news sources, youtube) from the 1st day their "fact-finding" began.

Given the info. you're now aware of regarding Goldstone vs. Israel and the history of the UNHRC, what on earth makes you think - aside from blind faith - that Israel's participation would have made significant impact on the report?

[bemildred]

42. Do you have some evidence they were given the July 29th release?

It seems unlikely that the Aug. 1-4 session was taking evidence anyway, but just to be "fair", did anyone bring it to their attention?

The Sept. 15th MFA stuff clearly was after the fact, hence they could not have "ignored it", since it was not available to be "ignored".

[shira]

43. they clearly had the july 29 release

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=18&x_article=1729

...and managed to misrepresent part of it.

I don't see how anyone can defend Goldstone's Report with a straight face.

[bemildred]

44. Hmmmmm ...

Your source:

Because of its belief that the UNHRC, Justice Goldstone and Professor Chinkin had prejudged the outcome of the investigation, the government of Israel did not present official testimony to the commission.

[shira]

46. so? does that mean Goldstone should ignore the July 29th report?

[bemildred]

48. It means he did not have it.

You can't ignore something you don't have in the first place.

But this dispute is becoming irrelevant as we speak.

[shira]

50. what? his report pointed to parts of it and ignored all the rest...and he had 6 weeks until Sept 15

...to make corrections in his report.

[bemildred]

52. No, once the investigation was done, they had to write the 600 page report.

And they did well to get it written that fast, without anybody making "corrections". You try it and tell me how it goes.

[shira]

54. so when do you think the 600 pages will be amended to account for all the 'mistakes'?

also - you failed to address the fact that aside from the July 29 report, Goldstone had access to all those news stories and videos I cited for you a few posts up.

there's this too...
http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com./id220.html

Mr. Ostroff has been in constant correspondence with Goldstone since at least May 2009, submitting evidence Goldstone eventually ignored.

Why pretend time ran out or Israel's July 29 submission was too late?

Do you really believe Goldstone's Report was fair, honest, and impartial?

[bemildred]

56. Never.

About as soon as you give up false-hypothetical "arguments".

[shira]

58. okay, and can you please respond to the rest of post #54?

[bemildred]

62. That link does not seem to work, at least I get a missing page message.

I generally do not believe in the notion of impartiality. It amounts to saying that you don't care. Bias and discrimination are not in themselves bad things, they are the basis of all opinion and judgement. The question is whether one has a sound basis for one biases, discriminations, and impartialities, or not. Does ones bases them on stereotypes, or on observable events and individual actions? You yourself give voice to far from "impartial" views about various parties. You are strongly partial to Israel.

The Goldstone commission was not a court of law. It was intended to examine evidence and establish facts, and that was what it did. As I said, if the matter does arrive at a court of law, there will be ample opportity to go over everything again.

As far as fair and honest, why yes, yes I do think it was. It is most intellectually dishonest to boycott and undermine an investigation, which Israel did, and then complain that one has not been heard "fairly" by it. One might almost suspect that it was the plan all along to do that.

[shira]

64. so it's okay that Goldstone and Co. ignored a lot of evidence and exaggerated when they had none?

"As far as fair and honest, why yes, yes I do think it was."

wow.

i really don't understand how you can believe it was fair and honest WRT israel, based on facts Goldstone ignored and made up.

[bemildred]

69. Seems like a mystery to me too.

It's like you assume that people must agree with your opinions or they can't be making any sense.

[shira]

72. we're not talking agreeing with opinion, but fact

and given what you know about Goldstone's "facts", it appears you're a true believer - just like any religious fundy where no amount of evidence or fact is enough to sway them.

[shira]

78. here's another link - and about your notion of impartiality

http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com./id213.html

try that - and note all the references to impartiality WRT the fact-finding mission - they said they would be impartial but they were not.

note that Ostroff has been communicating with Goldstone since the mission began and has provided Goldstone ever since with facts that Goldstone's mission ignored.

here's more of his correspondence with Goldstone...
http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com./id220.html

======

You say it was dishonest for Israel to boycott the mission and then claim the facts were wrong - but I ask you, is it fair and honest for Goldstone to ignore evidence available in news reports, internet, youtube video, etc... even without Israel's cooperation?

Maybe you believe since Israel didn't cooperate, Goldstone didn't have to accept certain available and easily accessible evidence (facts) if he and his fact-finding mission didn't want to? Even though he claimed his was an impartial fact-finding mission?

[bemildred]

45. I see here that Israel now says it has a "credible" investigation going on:

---

Israel maintains that it has a serious inquiry under way, with 100 complaints from Gaza already examined and 23 cases still pending court action. It says that about a third of the 36 incidents in the Goldstone report are already under investigation by the military, while others have been referred for investigation.

The Israeli government mounted a concerted diplomatic effort over the past few days against the resolution. But there has been a growing debate within Israel itself, with some human rights organizations and academics calling for an independent, non-military review of the Gaza conflict.

Mr. Khraishi, the Palestinian ambassador, said that passing a resolution now insisting that the General Assembly or the Security Council deal with the matter, as the report itself recommends, would likely have faced an almost immediate American veto. Delaying it gives the Israelis and Palestinians time to take up another recommendation in the report — that both sides set up independent investigation panels to look into possible war crimes during the Gaza war last winter.

“I don’t think that the Americans or the Israelis or anybody can escape from the realities that Goldstone collected, not Hamas either,” Mr. Khraishi said. The ambassador said he had the support of at least 33 members of the 47-member council — but not that of the United States, European Union members or Japan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/world/middleeast/02mideast.html?_r=1&hp

My own view is that if all of these parties begin to take their obligations to respect human rights and the laws of war seriously, then it's a win-win for all of us.

[shira]

47. win-win if both parties.....?

who is holding Hamas accountable for their complete lack of respect for human rights - especially against their own Palestinian pawns?

certainly not Goldstone.

why pretend otherwise?

[bemildred]

49. Hamas: Gaza authorities will investigate Goldstone's findings

Rafah – Ma’an Exclusive – Hamas is critical of the Goldstone commission’s report on alleged war crimes in Gaza, but will nonetheless accept its recommendations and investigate charges that militant groups violated the rules of war, senior Hamas official Ahmad Yousef told Ma’an.

In an extended interview at his home in the Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Yousef said that while he disagreed with Justice Richard Goldstone’s equivalence between occupying forces and Palestinian resistance, the Hamas-backed government in Gaza would nonetheless “do our best” to pursue investigations into the deaths of three Israeli civilians.

Yousef’s reaction differed from that of Israel, which refused to cooperate with Goldstone’s UN Fact-Finding Mission and pilloried his 574-page report as biased. On Thursday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vetoed a suggestion that the government establish a commission of inquiry into Goldstone's findings.

The Goldstone report was one of dozens of topics addressed in Ma’an’s extensive conversation with Yousef, who serves as an advisor to Gaza Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh on foreign affairs.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=228039

[shira]

51. so what do you make of Hamas' intentions here?

[bemildred]

53. I think they intend to pursue what they see as their self-interest.

Which in this case means at least a pretense of taking the Goldstone report seriously. That is pretty much what I expect from the Israeli government too. We can all watch as see what happens. And I think that's a good thing, fewer Hamas rockets, fewer Israeli reprisals, a better chance for the next generation to live in peace, it's all good. I'm just about Mary Poppins about this.

[shira]

55. you think Hamas will stop using Palestinians as pawns/shields due to Goldstone's fact-finding?

[bemildred]

57. Only if Israel stops torture, murder, and collective punishment due to Goldstone's fact-finding. nt

[shira]

59. you really believe that if Israel is perfect, Hamas will behave...if so why?

or is that another article of faith - a preference to fantasy over reality?

[bemildred]

60. Israel will never be perfect. nt

[shira]

61. the question is about Hamas - do you really expect them to change for the better? and if so...

...what makes you believe they ever will?

[bemildred]

63. The premise is false. nt

[shira]

66. goldstone believes hamas courts are credible and they can/will seriously investigate war crimes...

...do you believe that too?

[bemildred]

71. That's enough for today, I have some other things to do.

:hi:

[bemildred]

65. I believe that the people in Gaza are pretty much like people anywhere else.

Which means, yeah, if you put them in better circumstances they will behave better, and if you put them in worse circumstances, they will behave worse.

[shira]

67. we're not talking people of Gaza, but Hamas. That's like expecting the Iranian govt to play nice...

...if only the USA did its part.

[bemildred]

70. Hamas is a subset of the people of Gaza.

So yes, I am talking about Hamas, or at least that part of Hamas that is in Gaza. Hamas is comprised of perfectly ordinary people too.

[shira]

73. "Hamas is comprised of perfectly ordinary people too".....and it's these perfectly ordinary people

running the show who will see to it that real justice is served.

:eyes:

[bemildred]

74. Come come ...

Are you really arguing for special classes of people that are naturally evil, just born that way?

It is much simpler to see that all people are born essentially the same, and that much of how they turn out is the result of their circumstances. And it is therefore perfectly obvious that if you want better people, you have to put them in better circumstances.

[shira]

75. hamas isn't much different than the religious fundies like the Taliban or the nuts running Iran and

...Saudi Arabia.

If you realized Hamas is really no different than the other brands of Islamic extremism, you'd realize that no matter what Israel does it wouldn't matter - for example, the Taliban has nothing to do with Palestinians and neither do the Iranian or S.Arabian regimes. To believe otherwise is fantasy.

[bemildred]

76. Sounds a bit dogmatic to me.

Also, you sort of lost me when I was trying to understand your sentence. I'm not sure what the notion that the Taliban, Palestinians Iranians, and S. Arabians all have nothing to do with each other is supposed to be an example of? Is it an example for the claim that all the "brands of Islamic extremism" are "really no different" or what? How do those two ideas connect? What is it that you are saying "To believe otherwise is fantasy?

[shira]

77. what i mean is that expecting Hamas to change is like expecting the same from the Taliban,Iran,S.A.

in other words, a pipe dream and totally unrelated to Israel's behavior.

[bemildred]

79. Ah, OK.

Well, we disagree. I think change is inevitable, whether anybody likes it or not. People die, new generations come along, and they find new things to fight about. History is all about change, isn't it? Why just give up?

[shira]

80. we see what happened recently in Iran....it's great to have hope but stupid to live in fantasy land.

expecting Hamas to actually reform and act against its genocidal charter is nothing but a pipe dream, totally unrealistic - and its why Goldstone and those who think like him aren't taken seriously by the majority of Israelis or by Western powers.

You read of David Landau's views and those of the Betselem director - they're farther to the left than most in Israel and they thought Goldstone's Report was a joke. What part of all this is so difficult to comprehend?

[shira]

68. expecting religious fundy fanatics like Hamas to behave better is ludicrous & I think you know that

not only will they not change WRT Israel (see their genocidal charter) but they will not change WRT their own population.

[bemildred]

81. Well, don't you think we have chewed this over enough?

Hamas did not even exist a few decades back, and I see little reason to think they won't be replaced with something else in due course; but maybe you are right, maybe they will just continue on for centuries, stuck there in the rubble of Gaza.

[shira]

82. almost - what do you think about posts #78 and #80?

[bemildred]

83. Most of Ostroff's site appears to be missing, even when I click his links, not just yours.

You know "document not found"? I mentioned that before, but apparently you missed it the first time I pointed it out.

[shira]

84. those links work on my mac....don't know why they don't work for you

[bemildred]

85. It's strange, sometimes they work, then next time they don't.

Probably Tripod, I stopped going there some years back.

Mr Ostroff seems to write a good deal, I found various of his other things after looking around. He does not impress me. He seems fascinated by his own wit and sarcasm more than anything else. I notice he likes to write "open letters" too, and to chastise various parties that he disagrees with for not putting things into what he considers to be their "proper context". It is the mark of a small mind to think that anyone that does not see what you want them to see must be in error. I would bet that he is a pain in the ass to work with.

[shira]

86. the point is Ostroff supplied Goldstone with facts Goldstone ignored, so Goldstone has no excuse

...unless for some reason you believe it's fair that because Israel didn't cooperate, Goldstone's "fact-finding" commission had the right to accept/refuse any facts they wished. Either they accept all facts or none at all, not pick/choose in some willy-nilly way, minimizing some while ignoring the rest. Right?

Goldstone said his commission would be fair and impartial - impartial being one thing you feel they didn't have to be. Someone who says one thing like Goldstone but does another is dishonest - and you stated you think Goldstone's panel was honest.

----------

As to my other point about David Landau and the Betselem director, these are 2 hard leftists who believe Goldstone went way overboard. I would think that you and your comrades would rather work with Israel's left than against them and defer to their better judgment of the situation. What purpose does it serve to isolate Israel's left?

----------

finally, here's Goldstone recently in an interview with Christine Amanpour...
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/09/30/amanpour.richard.goldstone.int.cnn

1. check out what he says about the USA and its civilian casualties in Afghanistan, as opposed to Israel.
2. check out what he says about Hamas and its court system

you don't see a problem with such statements?

[bemildred]

87. Well, I can see why you like Mr Ostroff, you have similar styles of argumentation. nt

[shira]

88. and I see why you like Goldstone - ignore/minimize that which contradicts yr preconceived notions

[Scurrilous]

4. A permanent moral stain

<snip>

"Israeli criticism of the Goldstone Commission report ignores a basic fact: The pattern of action taken by Israel in the Gaza Strip had already been determined the day after the Second Lebanon War. Indeed, in the summer of 2006, it became clear once and for all that Israeli society would no longer be prepared to face a war of choice that exacted victims on its side. That is, Israel wants military victories, but it refuses to pay the human price they entail. Hence, a sober decision - the result of cold, political calculation - was made to conduct a campaign to punish Gaza with no Israeli losses.

There is not a single Israeli, especially among those who have themselves been soldiers, to whom the lives of young people in uniform are not dear. However, the practical meaning of this decision was that a heavy price would be paid by the entire Palestinian population, indiscriminately.

Therefore, there is no need for an Israeli commission of inquiry into Operation Cast Lead, because there is nothing to investigate: The entire matter is as clear as the noonday sun. Since Hamas operates from within population concentrations in one of the Western world's most crowded areas, it would be impossible to reach it without harming civilians. Indeed, had a decision been made to preserve civilian lives, it would have been necessary to adopt a completely different mode of action, perhaps involving commando operations deep into enemy territory, and these are always very costly in terms of soldiers' lives.

Instead, Israel's political and military leadership decided to use tremendous firepower that lacks the ability to distinguish between a combatant preparing to launch a rocket and a child playing in the yard. To this end, a new moral doctrine was also formulated. This doctrine - from the school of Prof. Asa Kasher and Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin - is known today in everyday Israeli language as "a license to kill."

And, indeed, all the decision makers knew in advance that a terrible catastrophe would ensue in Gaza. The Israel Defense Forces carried out precisely the instructions it received from its spiritual teachers, its commanders and the government itself. The army did not intend to kill civilians with malice aforethought - it just bombed, eliminated and flattened anything that seemed necessary for purposes of reconnaissance, maneuvering and advancement. Since every building could have served as a cover for Hamas people, the targets were unlimited."

more

[damntexdem]

5. Let's hope that it matters, but I am doubtful.

Since the judgment at Nuremberg, some war-crimes investigations have borne fruit, but most have run up against the power of the nations accused of the crimes. Israel and the U.S. are major examples of such immunity.

[shira]

6. it won't matter....this report is complete garbage

if you follow the conversation here in posts #52-56....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x288329#288475

based on this, starting at bottom of page 9....
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/FC985702-61C4-41C9-8B72-E3876FEF0ACA/0/GoldstoneReportInitialResponse240909.pdf

...that's just one example of how lame and obnoxious this report is.

It's going nowhere.

[Sezu]

7. As is anything a truther

like Falk says.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. So if anyone wants another investigation of 9/11 they're a 'truther'?

And how does that make absolutely everything they say garbage? That makes no sense...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Goldstone Report is not comparable with Nuremberg since the IDF refused to participate.

As a result, the report is irrecoverably flawed. Goldstone has been whining ever since. Read Annex II of the UN report.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. They're both investigations of war crimes, so they are comparable...

And yet another reminder that the hyperbolic *whining* label diminishes any argument you may have. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make what they say *whining*...

Nothing you've said in this forum has shown that the report is irrecoverably flawed. I've read Annexe II and I'm aware of the exchange of letters, but if yr pointing to this as some sort of proof of the report being flawed, I'm not sure why....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. In one sense you are right, Nuremberg set the standard, and Goldstone failed it

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I don't think he failed the standard when it comes to investigation....

Lots of Nazi documents and even the Nazi leadership wasn't there anymore, but the investigators worked with what they had...

[shira]

17. he failed the standard - see post #16

[Violet_Crumble]

19. No, I don't think he failed the standard at all. What you think isn't of much interest to me n/t