Under Netanyahu, Abbas has gone from 'good Palestinian' to foe

[bemildred]

PM Salam Fayyad also joins Palestinian President on Netanyahu's list of 'problematic' Palestinians.

Upon returning to power, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has changed the Israeli attitude toward Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen). Previous prime ministers Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert depicted Abbas as "the good Palestinian," a leader of moderates who are opposed to terror, in contrast to "bad Palestinians" like Yasser Arafat and the Hamas leaders. Abbas was the partner for peace, the interlocutor in a dialogue and a regular guest at the Prime Minister's Residence in Jerusalem. Olmert even visited Jericho once, as an expression of esteem for the Fatah leader.

Netanyahu, however, relates to Abbas as a foe who is waging a diplomatic war against Israel. In the premier's view, Abbas represents the past, the struggle for "Palestinian rights," the return of the refugees, the Palestinians' lists of Israeli crimes and endless demands for "justice."

One Israeli official has referred to Abbas as a "Holocaust denier," based on his doctoral thesis in 1982, in which he questioned the number of Jewish victims at the hands of the Nazis. Why complain about Iran's Ahmadinejad, when the PA president has denied the Holocaust, he asks. Abbas relates to Netanyahu with similar hostility. He sees the prime minister as a downright nuisance who is interfering with the achievement of Palestinian goals. The antagonism and lack of trust between the two men were evident at the meeting forced upon them by U.S. President Barack Obama last month in New York.

Netanyahu and Abbas have opposite views on ending the conflict. Abbas wants to work from the top down: First Israel should recognize Palestinian rights and demands, then details and implementation will be discussed. Netanyahu does not believe it is possible to solve the problems of Jerusalem and the refugees - and the demilitarized state he is offering the Palestinians is far from satisfying their minimal demands. Netanyahu wants to work from the bottom up: to start with economic peace and building the institutions of a Palestinian administration in the West Bank, while postponing other issues indefinitely. In the meantime, Israel will maintain control on the ground and in the settlements.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1119790.html

[damntexdem]

1. He's a bad Indian -- one who doesn't want to give up all his land.

Time to send the U.S. cavalry out to catch him.

Oops, sorry -- wrong country, wrong century. It can get so confusing at times. ;-)

[bemildred]

2. It's all show business anyway.

Like a soap opera, but the acting is not as good.

I mostly wonder if there are any "good Palestinians"? I mean Abbas and Fayyad are about as toolish as you get with Palestinian "leaders". Abbas just about publicly disemboweled himself at the UN over the Goldstone report, you'd think someone would be grateful.

[pelsar]

3. actually netanyahos approach is correct....

Abbas and friends are as corrupt as they get....as are all in the top leadership. The Palestinians need a new set of leaders based on people who aren't linked to arafat and company nor hamas...and thats the new generation, a more sophisticated bunch who work with israelis on economic issues as well as do business with them and want a democratic independence as well. (not as in gaza)

those contacts hopefully will lead to two things: a real trusting personal connection between the peoples and more importantly a demand from the Palestinians for a democracy within their own society..and a method to throw out the present corrupt leadership......

this will only work from the bottom going up

(this started with intifada i..until arafat come and tossed out the local leadership)

[bemildred]

4. Yup, Bibi is a great guy, smart as a whip too.

I just love happy talk.
:+

[pelsar]

5. sometimes the guy you dont like...gets it right....its called having an open mind

its an old story...shooting the messenger may feel good, but it doesnt really help anything.

[bemildred]

7. I am perfectly willing to let Bibi's results speak for themselves.

He does have a record to look at too, but you are right, one ought to keep an open mind, miracles do happen.

My problem is that I see little to be cheerful about in his policies and results so far. It is true that one can blame a lot of the trouble on his predecessors, who were indeed a sorry lot. But he seems to me to be nearly hamstrung by the large and "colorful" coalition he collected in order to form a government, so I am doubtful that he can take the sort of bold action that will be required to turn things around, assuming he is even interested in that sort of thing.

[Ken Burch]

9. No, waiting for new leadership doesn't justify continuing the Occupation

and it can NEVER justify any more settlement expansion.

[pelsar]

13. your just wrong....

iran, gaza, zimbabwa are examples where changing the government can lead to a far worse situation and far more deaths, misery and suffering.

but then again, if you believe nationalism/tribalism is THE most important value, than you perhaps are right.......

[Ken Burch]

17. I believe ending oppression is the most important value

And oppression can be ended through the oppressor maintaining a military occupation.

The Israeli government has given the Palestinian people no reason to do anything OTHER than what they are doing.

And you honestly don't see the irony in YOU lecturing others about "nationalism/tribalism"?

[pelsar]

20. if you dont like oppression....you should be outraged at hamas...

and more so, since its clear that, hamas, like iran and the taliban....are difficult if not impossible to get rid of and, is far far greater oppression than israelis occupation in terms of civil rights, education, freedom of the press, etc if your concern was JUST oppression your answer wouldnt be so simple.....

Unfortunately i get the impression that you believe oppression by ones own gene pool or by one of the same religion is a far lesser sin than military occupation by "the other (white european?) irregardless of the actual day to day living of the citizens.....


The Israeli government has given the Palestinian people no reason to do anything OTHER than what they are doing.


and perhaps you should actually listen to the Palestinians (this is of course assuming that you dont think of them "as lesser" people')..in fact you might consider that they know more than you about their various options...or are you one of the nice left liberals types that believe you know more than them (cultural colonialism?).....because they appear to disagree with you.....

and yes i see the irony of my mentioning the nationalism/tribalism...i've been waiting for someone to mention it for quite a while.....the answer is simple, it works when you have a working democracy....nationalism and tribalism come AFTER the democracy is working, not before, especially not in the middle east. It should be obvious to any objective observer that oppression via tribalism/religion without democracy is difficult to remove..... (but then like i wrote, to some that is more important than basic civil rights)


one second thought maybe you dont believe that the iranians or the zimbabwas, the afgans under the taliban, gazans under hamas are being oppressed...perhaps you should clairfy that, as it may have been a poor assumption on my part, this is after all the DU.....

[Ken Burch]

23. If the Occupation had ended once and for all in the Nineties

and a Palestinian state in ALL the West Bank and Gaza had been allowed(and they need the whole West Bank for such a state to work), Hamas would never have gained any popularity. Hamas is a PRODUCT of the Occupation.

If you support the Occupation because you want to make sure the Palestinians don't get a state, just say so. For the love of G-d, spare us the "it's for their own good" patronizing. You can't say that the settlements and the troops AREN'T a colonial project and then start in with the "take up the white man's burden" shit.

[oberliner]

26. There are no settlements or Israeli troops in Gaza where Hamas has taken power

You can't say the settlements and troops and the reason why Hamas is so popular as Hamas managed to record its greatest electoral success in Gaza after Israel had withdrawn all settlements and military forces from that region.

[Ken Burch]

28. Hamas had built up its support base before the Israeli withdrawal

It would never have had that support base if the Israeli government hadn't spent most of the decade before that humiliating and marginalizing Fatah. Fatah aren't saints but at least their secular and willing to negotiate and compromise. They were replaced in popularity by Hamas because Fatah was seen as being dissed and shamed in exchange for its basically cooperative attitude.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

32. yes ..fatah has no responsibly towards their own corruption...

and the fact that gazans themselves admitted that voting for hamas was a protest vote against fatahs corruption obviously doesn't mean anything to those who are culturally superior and dismiss the locals reasons......


They were replaced in popularity by Hamas because Fatah was seen as being dissed and shamed in exchange for its basically cooperative attitude.

you must have an incredibly low opinion of the Palestinians...is it because they arent educated enough?....they don't know what they're doing because.......

[Violet_Crumble]

38. There definately was settlements and troops in the West Bank. Why act like that isn't an issue?

It's the largest part of the future Palestinian state, and what happens there is happening to other Palestinians. And what do you mean when you talk of 'that region'? It's a pretty microscopic region if it doesn't include the West Bank....

[oberliner]

42. Fatah rules in the West Bank, Hamas rules in Gaza

The region I was talking about was Gaza. That is the region that Israel withdrew all its settlements from, and that is the region where Hamas holds power.

No one living in Gaza is impacted by Israeli settlements. They are obviously impacted by many actions taken by the Israeli government but the "settlement enterprise" and "separate roads" and "internal checkpoints" and the like are not present in Gaza, only in the West Bank. There are no marauding settlers chopping down olive trees and there are no walls or fences cutting through Palestinian territory in Gaza.

Yet it is in Gaza where Hamas has taken power, while Fatah maintains power in the West Bank.

Why do you think that is the case?

[Violet_Crumble]

45. It doesn't matter which party is ruling in what part of Palestine...

What Israel does in the West Bank does affect Palestinians who live in Gaza and visa versa. Why pretend otherwise? It's like pretending that something done to Tasmanians wouldn't affect their fellow Australians living on the mainland....

[oberliner]

71. So is there any particular reason for the divide?

Is it just coincidence that Hamas holds power in Gaza and Fatah does in the West Bank? Could it have just as easily been the reverse do you think?

[Violet_Crumble]

76. Did I give you the idea I was interested in you firing a bunch of questions at me?

After that Holocaust post and yr abuse, I think you can understand why I'm not interested in playing anymore silly games with you...

[oberliner]

78. You claimed that it did not matter which group was in power where

I was just curious to understand your perspective on the split a bit more fully. Personally, I'm not entirely sure why it is that Hamas has taken hold in Gaza while Fatah has done so in the West Bank. Polls generally seem to indicate that both groups had pockets of support in both regions.

Perhaps it could have just as easily been the reverse, or perhaps there is a clearer reason why Hamas rules Gaza and Fatah rules the West Bank.

Of course if you do not wish to share your thoughts on that question, that is your prerogative.

In that case, however, I would argue that it very much does matter which group is in power where, and I think that the fact that Hamas took power in Gaza after Israel had withdrawn all settlements from the region appears to show (if nothing else) that the success of Hamas is not directly in relation to settlements and the hardships that they create.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. The answer is: No, I'm not interested in you firing off a bunch of questions at me...

And I've already said why. I can keep on repeating it if yr having trouble reading it, of course...

I came into this thread to make the point that it's ridiculous to pretend that Gaza and the West Bank are unrelated to each other and that what's done to Palestinians in the West Bank doesn't affect Palestinians in Gaza, and visa versa. It's like someone trying to make out that what happens to Americans in Hawaii doesn't affect Americans elsewhere, or that what happens to Tasmanians doesn't affect mainland Australians....

[oberliner]

80. No further questions were asked

I made certain of that - did not wish to "fire anything off" at you that you did not feel like responding to.

Thanks for reposting your deeply thought-provoking paragraph.

What a productive exchange of ideas this has been!

[Violet_Crumble]

83. I didn't say there were. I just answered the question you didn't answer...

btw, there's no need for sarcasm, Oberliner. I've made it clear why I'm not interested in wading through a barrage of questions from you, and if yr unclear on that, I can tug the memory by providing a link to the post that tipped the scale for me. I think it's time to cut the losses and move on...

[pelsar]

36. as if you know PA/hamas politics.......

i doubt you even speak arabic...and yet you claim that hamas would never have gained popularity......your understanding of Palestinian politics is at best zero....(must be that western liberal education of yours that gives you such clarity to see through other cultures)

but to clarify incase your confused; im against the occupation, i'm also against missiles and other attacks on israeli cities..and that takes precedent before the removing the occupation.

the theory of land for peace without a strong govt was shown to be a failure with gaza (and lebanon)....we dont have to risk it again, its now their turn to prove they wont use another pullout as a weapons platform...(yes i know you have a very low opinion of the Palestinians as if they are not responsible for any of the actions...israelis in general however have a higher opinion of them and do give them the credit for being responsible for their actions)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

84. Why didn't the occupation end *before* the rockets and missiles?

And the lesson of Lebanon was not as your write it, dear Pelsar. And I do understand palestinian politics.

"Bleed them enough and they leave." That about sums it up.

[Ken Burch]

25. I believe those places have bad governments

But nothing would be better if those countries didn't have independence. You can't just take the world back to the colonial era.

And the freedoms we have in the allegedly "civilized" West took centuries to achieve, before which most of those "civilized" countries were just as repressive and backward as any of the ones you mentioned in the last line of your post.

Israel doesn't maintain the Occupation in the name of bettering the lives of Palestinians. It maintains it in the name of preventing the Palestinians from ever being free.

[shira]

27. wrong - Israel doesn't occupy in order to prevent Palestinian freedom

1. Palestinians aren't free under Hamas in Gaza, so how can you say an end to occupation is "freedom", or that such "independence" trumps what Palestinians have in the W.Bank under occupation? Neither are Lebanese in S.Lebanon "free" under Hezbollah occupation but I don't see you complaining about that or Hamas' occupation of Gaza.

2. The result of ending occupations in Lebanon and Gaza were 2 wars in 2006 and 2008-9. THAT is why the occupation of the W.Bank continues. If you look at a map, you'll see pulling out of the W.Bank endangers the major Israeli population centers, which makes pulling out of those territories MUCH more dangerous than pulling out of Gaza or Lebanon.

==========

If ending the occupation meant only freedom for Palestinians and zero threat to Israelis, it would have happened long ago. You cannot pretend that the main reason for the occupation is NOT security for Israeli citizens who expect their government to protect them (as any other citizens in any other country expect at the very least from their governments).

Maybe if you and your family had lived in Sderot the last 5 years you could speak better for most Israelis who don't want to see a repeat of that in Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. Put yourself in their shoes.

[stranger81]

81. In what sense, exactly, is Hamas "occupying" Gaza?

Would that be the sense in which Barack Obama is "occupying" the United States?

One should not have to be reminded that while Hamas won a general election, Israel was neither elected nor invited into the West Bank. There's simply no comparing the two.

[shira]

82. Gaza is occupied just as Iran or any other non-free country with freepers in charge

and while Hamas won an election, that gave them no right to destroy the PA with their illegal militia and rule Gaza - like what's happening in Lebanon with Hezbollah. Palestinians in Gaza didn't exactly vote for that, and even if they did and wanted to change things, they can't - ergo, Gaza is occupied by Hamas.

[pelsar]

34. at least you admit it: repression is fine....as long as its of the same genes...

thats i how i understand you little explanation. Your concern is not civil rights, freedom of expression, etc......your just a nationalist/tribalist that believe one is best ruled by ones owns....and then call it "independence"

like syrian, zimbabwa, somalia, gaza.


and after one is ruled by ones own, regardless of the type of rule....which may include irans version of hanging homosexuals, the taliban version of stoning, gazas torture chambers....etc maybe one day they might decide to change, or not. Civil rights, etc obviously is not a real concern to you...at least you've made that very clear.

and far more interesting you've made it clear...people should be ruled by their race and not by other races.....shall we call it racism?

[Ken Burch]

44. Oh puhleeze...there's no way you can spin the Occupation as a blow against racism and nationalism

It would have been enough to have a few troops around the edges. There was never a justification for making the Palestinians feel completely dominated and powerless.

People should rule themselves. It's absurd to act like some people haven't EARNED independence. AND it's racist.

[pelsar]

50. so we agree that its racism....

People should rule themselves. It's absurd to act like some people haven't EARNED independence. AND it's racist.

.....if only people of the same genetic makeup have the right to "rule themselves" then we are clear that that is racist view...for that pretty much defines what racism is...at least that is clear (i assume of course you believe the american indians should get what they deserve and not what they presently have....as per one example.)

as far as the Palestinians go: they dont have to "earn" independence, somehow israel has to be assured that they wont attack israel....as in gaza/lebanon

In case you missed the 60+ years (yes another history lesson)

troops on the borders are not always successful in protecting the civilians behind them, and if you missed the last few wars, they were characterized by 1,000 of missiles on israel, that fly "OVER" the border. I realize those facts are rather bothersome, but they are actual facts and putting ones head in the sand, doesn't really stop them.

btw, why do you believe the Palestinians are powerless....when they dont believe so (do you know things they don't know....)
_____

what your confused about is that israel is not in the westbank because of racism...but for some removing the occupation is based on racism.

[Ken Burch]

60. It is not racism to say that one people shouldn't be under military occupation by another

And if you were REALLY against racism, you'd be backing a unitary state in which Jews and Arabs lived as equals, a state that comprised the whole of the Mandate. A democratic secular unitary Palestine would be the only truly non-racist state.


That would be the fully antiracist solution. Not making one group live at the mercy of another.

Or at least you would have demanded humanitarian medical exemptions from waiting at the checkpoints, so that elderly Palestinian grandfathers wouldn't have to watch their wives die of heart attacks because the arrogant jerk in the IDF uniform was proving his macho by not letting them through.


The Occupation is not the U.S. Civil Rights Movement.

The antiracist options are to either let the Palestinians rule themselves, or to have a unitary state. Israel with NO Palestinian state and with a perpetual Occupation(since we can assume that, like always in the past, the Israeli government will always invent NEW hoops for Palestinians to jump through when they've jumped through all the old ones) can NEVER be an antiracist position.

[pelsar]

61. and i would explain to you, that is racist to assume values to a society that doesn't have them....

your "utopian vision" of a single democratic state assumes cultures and values that dont exist presently within the Palestinian society......can we call your view "colonial culturalism?

and i agree that not one group should live at the mercy of another...which is why hamas has a lot to learn...will you or your friends go and teach them not be so racist in their attitudes toward jews and israelis? (didnt think so.....)

and in fact i agree, the Palestinians should infact rule themselves, even if it is a racist attitude......and if look at hamas or the PA, without massive changes they no doubt will continue their racist regimes (anti civil rights, anti women rights anti homosexuals etc)...it will just be less newsworthy.

of course before they get their own racist regimes, they have to stop trying to kill jews and israelis.....its the kind of racism that in israel simply isn't accepted...then they can do what they want to their own, without israeli interference...not to difficult.


bummer isn't it....we consider missiles on our cities as "hoops".
ike always in the past, the Israeli government will always invent NEW hoops for Palestinians to jump through

.....i guess your view of terrorism is a bit different from those who are on the receiving end of missiles...is it shooting at israelis randomly that isn't terrorism or is it because the shooters are of a specific genetic makeup? (I"m assuming you don't believe the kassams and mortars are considered terrorism, since you call it "hoops")
__________

so out of curiosity...is your home on former american indian land?....which tribe? (I can help if you don't know)...and what are you doing about it?

[Ken Burch]

62. what hamas does is not more important that everything else.

And if you want Palestinians not to have attitudes you think of as racist towards Jews(btw, Jews aren't a race, and it's weird that you'd say they were given that the idea they were was invented by Hitler), then stop putting them in a position where they are living at the mercy of the group you claim them to be bigoted towards.

And I live in the State of Alaska, where an elaborate compensation system, the Alaska Land Claims Act, is in place to at least do something about the past theft of land. So you DON'T have me on hypocrisy there. Also, you put Zionism on really shaky moral ground if you use any argument that can allow it to be tied to Manifest Destiny or the Trail of Tears. I do regard what was done to the First Nations of this continent and theft and speak out about it as often as I can. I damn sure don't say "we won, deal with it".

[pelsar]

63. you think so low of the Palestinians....dont you?

the Palestinian attitudes toward the jews is of their own making.......no one makes someone else be biased.....

i don't agree with your "moral compass"...about "first world nations" etc......zionism was in fact born out of the reality of the modern world and it history and one doesn't need apologize for it.

----

so what about those kassams on israelis (those hoops).....terrrorism or not?..which is it in your world view?

[Ken Burch]

65. the tiny little rockets and hamas are not more imporant than everything else

It isn't all Hamas' fault.

And I don't have to accept the "they have to put in leaders we like before we stop kicking them in the balls" thing just to prove I don't think too little of the Palestinians.

And face it, if they did get rid of Hamas, you guys on the Israeli far right would come up with some other hoop they had to jump through.

[pelsar]

67. itsy bitsy terrorism.... i was waiting for that....

over 6,000 rockets fired randomly day and night in an area of over 100,000 people doesnt count..(contrast that with the panic in washington over their little sniper). And yes shooting rockets over the border is all hamas fault.....they build them, they decide to launch or not to launch.....nobody else does it.

The Palestenian don't have to accept anything...just as long as they understand they're consequences for their actions......I personally don't care if they have hamas or islamic jihad etc.....i'm just concerned that they stop trying to kill us.

its not very difficult to grasp.


hate to break it to you...but i'm on the left side of the line.....the major difference between us is that i respect the Palestinians and believe they are responsible for their society, their education and their actions.....

you obviously dont.

[Ken Burch]

68. 17 people died from those rockets..thousands of Palestinians were killed in response

and many of those who were killed had nothing to do with the rockets. The losses should be at least considered equally sad, at least.

The rockets don't trump EVERYTHING ELSE. They can't be used to answer any and all critiques of Israeli policy.

[pelsar]

72. 100,000s +

were terrorized day and night, running to shelters with a 15second warning......by your "itsy bitsy rockets"....which of course increased range to add over a million to its terror....and they kept coming for over 3 years with hamas promising more....

stopping them sure does trump doing nothing......stopping them does hold hamas, the govt of gaza responsible.....(you don't like that word i noticed....)

[Ken Burch]

70. You can't be on the left and defend keeping a nation under military Occuopation

What's happening isn't about stopping Palestinians from killing anybody. It's about making it impossible to establish a Palestinian state. That's what everyone who wants more settlements(including the mythical "natural growth")wants, they want there to be so little land that Palestinians can't form a state(or at least not a contiguous West Bank, which would itself make a state impossible).

It's bullshit to say that I have to support crushing Hamas(which can't be done)in order to prove I don't look down on Palestinians.
You can't reform your political culture while another country's army is swaggering through your streets. Reform only comes with liberation.

[pelsar]

73. i'm liberal...that means i believe in one standard and responsibility.....

i understand the progressiveness has a flexible standard and absolves people of being responsible for their actions....

and as a person on the left....i am against terrorism no matter who is doing it nor where they live and no matter what their excuse.......and terrorism as i define it, is a policy of intentionally killing civilians.

What's happening isn't about stopping Palestinians from killing anybody

except that is precisely what has happened in gaza-where there are no settlements.....(don't you hate those facts)


and i'm sure your really mad at the PA working with Israel to stop the terrorism coming from the westbank (that probably really really pisses you off).

and of course here comes the traditional history lesson (this is where your proven wrong
You can't reform your political culture while another country's army is swaggering through your streets.


you just made it up, you simply prefer to believe it, since its more of a "feel good" kind of thing. The actual facts are, is that the Palestinians culture has gone through Major changes since the israeli occupation......
and of course.....the jews under the British occupation modified their own political culture constantly.
_______

heres your challenge...your two major beliefs: that its not about defense, and cultures cant be changed under an occupation, have been proven wrong by the events (no settlements in gaza):...now what do you do?...change your beliefs to reflect reality or pretend those events never actually occurred and keep on being a believer?

[Ken Burch]

64. And I would say that it's bigoted to assume that Palestinians are culturally incapable of democracy

And that it's bigoted to say that Israelis are automatically morally and culturally superior to Palestinians. The only things that are culturally progressive in Israel are those things done by the secular left, the part of the Israeli political spectrum that is now permanently powerless. It's totally inconsistent to defend, for example, gay rights AND Operation Cast Lead. You can't be against repression for one group and favor it for another.

You attitude assumes that Palestinians never voluntarily improve themselves, but must be coerced into acting like human beings. How is that NOT bigotry?

[pelsar]

66. not culturally incapable....but not yet integrated within the culture

The Palestenians are an educated society, but have yet to integrate civil rights etc within their own society....and i freely admit to being a cultural bigot. I believe western democracy, with its civil rights, etc is by far the superior society to one that believes in FGM, hanging homosexuals, restricting women to wearing potatoe sacks....attempting to kill people randomly etc

perhaps you feel that stoning women for adultry or punishing women for being raped is to be accepted as a cultural issue..........(if you don't than you might as well accept that you believe your culture is superior to others....)

my attitude toward the Palestinians it the opposite of your bigotry...i believe not only are the capable but they are also responsible for improving themselves. And i'm also aware that they ruling elite is not interested in those changes and will do what they can to stop it. Your posts are consistent in that you believe the Palestinians are not just powerless but have no responsibilities..as if they are incapable of anything.....

the israeli left isn't dead....its quite active within the society....they're also realists and when the belief that "land for peace", that the obstacle is the settlements was destroyed by gaza, they simply faced reality...the Palestinians in gaza, the ruling party was trying very very hard to terrorize israelis (hoops in your language) AFTER the settlements were destroyed and israel left simply recognized it.....some in the left have a hard time facing new realities....

[Ken Burch]

69. None of the "improvements" you speak of can happen under military occupation

And in any case you can't punish ALL Palestinians for the actions of the worst.

People can only improve when they're free.

The Occupation is NOT "for their own good". And you really need to let go of this "we know what's best for them" attitude, since no Palestinians would agree with you that the Occupation is what's best for them.

[pelsar]

75. the occupation is not for their own good....

i'm just offering a suggestion to get rid of the israeli occupation and not get it replace with a different occupation as in hamas (and a more stable form of governing).....and i might mention, that the idea that civil rights appearing under hamas is probably far more ridiculous than anything else you might believe...

and you really should learn about history as opposed to writing things that have no basis:

People can only improve when they're free.

freedom is not a zero sum game...there are variations of freedom, and perhaps you should read up on the lives of the Palestinians pre israeli occupation vs post, education levels, newspapers, etc. Hence cultures can and do change under occupation (try something else that is not so easy to dispel)

and your confused: military occupation is not good, religious dictatorships are generally the worse, secular dictatorships are bad-but the worse?....trying to kill people randomly in another country.......

(and you need to respect the Palestinians a bit more, some in the westbank/jerusalem, have made it clear that they prefer the israeli occupation than their other limited choices..at least in the meantime, as the lesser of the evils.)
-------

And in any case you can't punish ALL Palestinians for the actions of the worst.
collective punishment is always a bad thing.....hence hamas, the governing body of gaza has its responsibility to stop attacking israel, and they should have done it much earlier (military responses are not very precise)

[LeftishBrit]

6. Too true. And unfortunately they are also considered 'foes' by Hamas.

Fayyad's 'unilateral' approach looks likes something that could actually work; but perhaps not surprisingly, the extremists on both sides seem keen to prevent it.

[azurnoir]

8. well it seem Abbas was a great partner

as long as the marriage was in "name only" but the moment some consummation was required......

Fayyad's plan which now has the backing of the Quartet seems for the moment the best and perhaps only option

[bemildred]

10. Yeah, "How soon we forget ..."

When I heard that the PNA had withdrawn support for UNHRC review of Goldstone, I sort of thought he was being "sacrificed". Or maybe just retired. Of course that remains to be proven.

I can't work up much enthusiasm for Mr Fayyad, but his plans are the sanest that I know of with any political backing. It won't be enough, what he is talking about, but it could make things better, and it's hard to see how it could make anything worse.

[LeftishBrit]

11. Agree about Fayyad

'his plans are the sanest that I know of with any political backing. It won't be enough, what he is talking about, but it could make things better, and it's hard to see how it could make anything worse.'

I agree.

[bemildred]

14. Hi LB.

Quite often, it does seem that we do.
:hi:

[pelsar]

12. you guys dont get it....

and heres the irony...Progressive Muslim and i sort of agree .....though we need her input here. My take is similar to hers..ALL of the PA leadership is corrupt...ALL of it has to go. There is no way they are going to give up their power and luxuries so easily. Did you know they get free passes into israel and i believe that includes medical care as well?

The only way they will leave is if they are kicked out and that can only come from a intifada III. Here i believe PM and i might disagree as to how to get there, but the concept of a grass roots, local leadership taking over is essential for any real change.

i believe that a working PA democratic society is essential to keep hamas at bay, and to stabilize their society..and it wont happen with the present leadership or governing style

[bemildred]

15. No, you don't get it.

We know the Palestinian leadership is corrupt, and we know the Israeli leadership is corrupt, and we disrespect them one and all.

I am all for grass-roots action, but I don't expect anything less than 1.) economic collapse or 2.) vigorous outside intervention to bring about real reform - on either side - at this point. It's like an impacted wisdom tooth, it's going to take surgery, it's not going to heal itself.

[pelsar]

16. your not going to get that....

theres not going to be any economic collapse...nor will you get "vigorous outside intervention."......the PA leadership is not going to let go of its powers (where as the israeli leadership will be changing as is natural). And any outside intervention will depend upon the corrupt PA leadership to "implement" their changes....which the Palestinians will probably not accept (ask PM.....) and there by render those decisions useless.

its grass roots intifada III or no real change.

[bemildred]

18. Come on, you are fending off "vigorous outside intervention" as we speak.

Your politicians have to be careful where they go. We have loud yelling about boycotts and such. Compare now with 9 years ago and tell me things are not moving in the wrong direction. I realize it's unpleasant to think about, just like here in the USA, but happy talk will only take you so far.

[pelsar]

19. vigorous outside intervention.....for the Palestinians....

at least that was how i read it....(we've had boycotts since day 1-they are not enough for israel to help prepare the groundwork for missiles on jerusalem....). It the Palestinians that need a major change in their internal workings.

things actually are moving slowly in the right direction: The westbank is now quiet, the first step toward the Palestinians move to a real democracy is to put their energies toward their own society. The reality of gaza..i.e. israel leaving without a strong, accepted local govt has been made clear to two most important players: the israelis and the Palestinians (the rest of the world is of a lesser concern as their agendas are not usually in the two players best interest).

Hamas taking over was in one respect the best possible outcome...the westbankers are now fully aware of what one version of "independence looks like"....and they dont like it (something that many on the left have yet to realize or understand-Palestinians tribal leadership, without a real working democracy is not the endall goal for many. The westbankers have been shutting down their extremists with the help of the IDF, a very very good first step.

its a longer road to independence, and one many in the west, who prefer "instant" answers" may not like, but its a far surer one. And worse of all?....it requires working with israelis, those "evil doers".......

sorry to disappoint...but the quiet in the westbank and hamas in gaza speaks louder than any left protest or boycott.....its now the Palestinians turn to change strategies...

[Ken Burch]

22. None of the above vindicates a brutal military Occupation

Stop sounding so South African.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

35. sorry....the Palestinians of the westbank disagree...

sucks doesn't it, when the locals your cheerleading for disagree with you, its obviously not "brutal enough" for them to have decided to cooperate with the IDF, something they didnt do before......and worse, roadblocks have disappeared, and the IDF has left areas to the PA....

.... (and don't even ask the arabs of E jerusalem what they think..that will really throw you off balance)

i think its time for a new religion......."your flock" has left you

[Ken Burch]

43. It's not MY flock

And nothing you've said above supports the argument that the Palestinians want to live at the mercy of the IDF. You're making the arguments that apologists for apartheid made about South Africa in the Eighties. Those people are not DEFENDING the Occupation, and it's incredibly cynical of you to imply that they are.

[pelsar]

51. you seem to know what they want....more than they do....

even when they disagree with you.....The Palestinians in the westbank have very limited choices these days + they are educated. They don't want to live under occupation....be it hamas, the corrupt PA nor the IDF.

i would say one of the differences is, they are aware of their choices and are simply less racist then many of their supporters. Presently they have a far greater amount of personal security, economic security than they did under arafat or those living in gaza.

how they balance those needs for those securities with their desire to be independent we shall see......but what is clear is that independence, while important has competition within their society........(you obviously disagree with their values)

i don't have to "say" anything. The quiet on the westbank, the PA working with the IDF be it via information or direct action, speaks loud and clear. The economy is strong, including their stock exchange and the PA is actually working on plans for some new villages....this is a major change from the past.

i know you don't like it, it probably feels to you as if they are "traitors" to the cause.....but what you don't get is that the Palestinians are also people, who have mortgages to pay, cars to buy, kids to educate...and they look over at gaza and understand how the wrong choices can be "deadly."

[azurnoir]

52. So your claim here is that the Palestinians

actually want the occupation to continue?

[pelsar]

53. you should read my whole posts.....and avoid simplistic summaries

life for the Palestinians, in the westbank is very complex with limited options and many conflicting needs....they don't want to be occupied....especially by hamas even if they are of the same genetic make up......

(though some on left may disagree with 'whats good for them.")

[azurnoir]

56. I did read you whole post in fact several of them

that seems to be the sub-text or alternately that it is almost a certainty thata Hamas take over of the West Bank will be the result of ending the occupation is that the point?

[pelsar]

57. the point is....that not only was it possible...it was real threat....

it was a threat perceived by the most important group: the Palestinians in the westbank, and they had to make some decisions on their own about what threatened them more and what less:..guess what? hamas turned out to be the greater threat (i realize that for many, this is a disappointment for two reasons:

1) the Palestinians took responsibility for a situation and acted upon it, there by dispelling the concept that they are helpless and not responsible for any actions.

2) Israel, as they determined is/was not the greater threat to them...it was a group that shared the same genes as them. And they asked the IDF for help and got it.

some history:
hamas actually did it in gaza even though they were out numbered....they also had a real threat in the westbank until the PA (with the IDFs active and passive support) reduced the threat by entering hamas strong holds and arresting and or killing hamas members. (they were areas like jenin where hamas ruled)

the ongoing cooperation of the IDF and PA has reduced the threat, reduced the violence, has provided more freedom of travel (reduced roadblocks), stable economy etc.

the downside of that is, is that the PA a very corrupt organization is stronger and is hardly democratic.....but they are better than hamas and probably worse than the IDF.....its now the Palestinians turn to put the pressure on the PA....

[azurnoir]

58. while I am well aware of Gaza's history

do you really think the Palestinians so hapless as to allow that history repeat it self?
As to the "cooperation" between the PA and IDF that is somewhat questionable as just how far that goes I found one article here that spoke of this "cooperation"

IDF: 'PA police venturing beyond their areas'

With the growing number of US-trained Palestinian security officers deployed in the West Bank, the IDF is facing the problem of policemen venturing into areas under Israeli security control without permission.

Earlier this year, the IDF allowed the Palestinians to establish a number of small police stations in towns in Area B, which is under Israeli security control but is administered by the PA. Area C, where the security officer was caught two weeks ago, is under complete Israeli control.

The IDF's concern is primarily due to the potential misunderstandings that can be caused by having armed Palestinians walking around in areas that are off-limits. Earlier this year, two Israeli soldiers and one Palestinian security officer were wounded during a shootout in Kalkilya. The soldiers were operating undercover and neither side properly identified the another.

this last bit spoke about the lack of democracy that you have cited, but also outlines the way in part the PA is controling Hamas

Another tactic that the PA has begun using to weaken Hamas in the West Bank is to prevent the holding of municipal elections in cities and towns that are run by Hamas. By deciding not to hold elections, PA Prime Minister Salaam Fayad is able to appoint an official of his choosing to the post.

"This is an internal PA process that is having an effect on Hamas," the senior officer said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804485734&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

eta I hit post by accident too soon

[pelsar]

59. and do you believe hamas is so dumb as to not change their tactics?

Hamas has been disappearing from the westbank recently.....and its not because they've had a change of heart..... The roadblocks are now less, the stock market in ramalla is doing well, etc

do you think these things are just happening all by themselves? (the hebrew printed press has had several articles recently about it and the PA/IDF together, and i have a friend who recently finished 30 extremely boring days in the westbank for his reserve service)

______

and yes history does repeat itself....lebanon is a good example.....WWI and II. The Palestinians in the westbank saw the threat, weighed their options and made, what i think, was a wise choice. And in doing so, showed some maturity by working with the Israelis...to the chagrin of many.

The soldiers were operating undercover and neither side properly identified the another.
two years ago that would never have happened..(identifying one another), it would have been a gun battle that left one side dead

[azurnoir]

74. well I guess not killing each other is cooperative

but still IDF and PA police are hardly partners and if they are actually rooting out Hamas all the more reason IDF is outliving its "usefulness"
as for your historical examples I will not go into it here but the 2 world wars have little in common except for their names except that perhaps the victors heavy handed punishment of the vanquished may have lead to to the formatin of the Nazi party.
As for your friends boring tour I am betting he wasn't in Nil'lin and more likely he was in the north

[pelsar]

77. and that is a real first step

but still IDF and PA police are hardly partners and if they are actually rooting out Hamas all the more reason IDF is outliving its "usefulness" Thats the idea.....that the PA won't need the IDF

the cooperation is not political, not based on a pieces of worthless agreements. its based on mutual interests...and thats how it really works and for those who are actually interested in peace would be cheerleading this more than anything else.

[Ken Burch]

54. It is incredibly arrogant for you to act as if YOU can speak for the Palestinians

I've never made that claim for myself.

Those people are against Hamas. Fine. They'd be free from Hamas even without the Occupation. You make it sound like they're GLAD the IDF used the iron fist. There's no way you could know that.

[pelsar]

55. I dont speak for them...

but this forum is based on limited information.....and with confidence i believe i know a lot more than you.......

you make assumptions constantly on what the Palestenian believe ..the most blantent is that they are "powerless"....they disagree with you in both actions and words.

and you really really should look at history...be it a few months or years:

Those people are against Hamas. Fine. They'd be free from Hamas even without the Occupation. You make it sound like they're GLAD the IDF used the iron fist. There's no way you could know that

gaza?....no occupation and hamas rules....(dont you just hate it when history proves your wrong........the PA was actually disappointed when the IDF left gaza without destroying hamas....of course that would require actually listening to them....and not assuming you know what their values are or should be....now that is real arrogance!!

[shira]

21. you really don't get it - there is no comparison b/w the PA being corrupt and Israel

one is a self-policing democracy and the other is a repressive dictatorship.

one is not as bad as the other and you should know better if you are at all interested in Palestinian human rights.

[bemildred]

30. Ehud Olmert defiant as corruption trial begins

Former Israeli prime minister faces charges of secret campaign funding, fraud over travel costs and personal favours

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/25/ehud-olmert-corruption-trial-israel

Ehud Olmert to become first former Israeli PM to appear in court

---

Further convincing many Israelis that a culture of impunity exists among the political elite, Avigdor Lieberman, the present foreign minister, is under investigation for fraud, taking bribes and money laundering.

---

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/6227623/Ehud-Olmert-to-become-first-former-Israeli-PM-to-appear-in-court.html

Sharon's son charged in corruption case

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/feb/18/israel1

Israeli Insider - Poll: Most Israelis consider Sharon corrupt

A poll conducted for Haaretz on Sharon's fourth anniversary as prime minister found that 62% of respondents chose the quality "corruption" to characterize the prime minister.

Only 48.6% of the public believes that Sharon initiated the disengagement based on "considerations of the good of the state," but the rest were split on which self-interested motivation affected his decision: 12.2% of the public believe the disengagement derived from Sharon's political situation, while 12.4% think the real reason for Sharon's conceiving the disengagement plan were legal investigations of Sharon and his sons.

Some of the response apparently derived from political outlook. Although 84 percent of Yahad-Meretz voters described Sharon as corrupt, none of the Meretz voters - 0 percent - thought the investigations are the reason for the disengagement initiative.

In contrast, 32.5 percent of the right-wing voters -- the National Religious Party and the National Union -- said the legal investigations were the reason that Sharon initiated the Gaza pullout plan.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/5104.htm

Q&A: Sharon corruption inquiries

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3416565.stm

IN THE CLEAR?

Israel's attorney general, Elyakim Rubinstein, decided not to indict Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Sunday, contrary to police recommendations. The Jewish leader's legal and political trouble, however, may not be over. After an ITN background report, Magaret Warner discusses the attorney general's decision with David Makovsky, chief diplomatic correspondent for the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, and special correspondent for U.S. News & World Report.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/april97/israel_4-21.html

Netanyahu defends choice of Shalit negotiator amid corruption rumors

The Prime Minister's Bureau on Tuesday defended its choice of a former top intelligence operative to head negotiations for the release of abducted Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, despite rumors linking him to a corruption scandal.

Former Mossad agent Haggai Hadas was recently named to take over negotiations in a prisoner swap deal for Shalit, who has been in Palestinian captivity since he was abducted in a 2006 cross-border raid from the Gaza Strip.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098455.html

[shira]

31. okay, and the PA and leaders from neighboring countries do far worse and are never investigated

...the good thing about an Israel or any other western country is that these criminals are held to account for their crimes.

You'd have a better case if Israel just let all this fly.

Fortunately, Israel has the most free and openly self-critical press in the world. That should be lauded, not minimized as though there's no difference b/w Israel and her neighbors.

[bemildred]

33. So "We're not as bad as Fatah" is the defense?

Isn't that a comparison?

[shira]

37. hardly - Israel rates well against any western democracy

[bemildred]

39. You said "the PA and leaders from neighboring countries do far worse and are never investigated"?

I didn't bring it up. If that was not the comparison you had in mind, why not point out corruption in other western democracies instead? Freudian slip?

But in any case, I was pointing out that there IS a comparison, and you made it.

[shira]

40. that was in response to your post #15 where you stated...

"We know the Palestinian leadership is corrupt, and we know the Israeli leadership is corrupt, and we disrespect them one and all. "

=======

there is no comparison between a democracy and a repressive dictatorial regime.

[bemildred]

41. No, it was in response to post #30, as anyone can see.

In post #15 I made no comparison, I just claimed they are both corrupt and said I do not respect either of them.

Edit: well, I should say "we" not "I", perhaps I should not have spoken for anyone else in post #15.

[shira]

46. all govt's are corrupt - so you don't respect any of them, right?

[bemildred]

47. Do you really think all governments are corrupt? nt

[shira]

48. of course, that's the nature of politics - some are more corrupt than others

it's the nations (all democratic) who hold their governments accountable that should be lauded.

[bemildred]

49. Ok, thanks for the answer. nt