Ukraine academic: Israel imported 25,000 kids for their organs

[oberliner]

Stories appearing on several Ukrainian Web sites claim Israel has brought around some 25,000 Ukrainian children into the country over the past two years in order to harvest their organs.

The claim, which was made by a Ukrainian philosophy professor and author at a pseudo-academic conference in Kiev five days ago, is the latest expression of a wave of anti-Semitism in the country. It comes a few months after a Swedish tabloid ran an article alleging that Israel Defense Forces soldiers have killed Palestinian civilians for their organs.

Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism have become a major motif of the presidential election campaign in Ukraine, with some figures making anti-Semitic statements and others condemning them. Some candidates, including a Jew and someone whose rivals claim is Jewish, blame a third rival - Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko - for bringing anti-Semitism into the race.

"Ukraine's political system is a parody of democracy," Russia's Chief Rabbi, Berel Lazar, said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1132425.html

[madaboutharry]

1. The oldest blood libel around.

Shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. If true (and I'm sure it isn't), why isn't the Ukraine government doing anything about it?

Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit to incite fear, like the old Catholic canard "Jews kill and eat Christian babies".

Gettin' pretty fucking sick and tired of the ignorance and hate in this world.

[dipsydoodle]

3. "parody of democracy"

Many democracies which suit the USA are infact so.

[aquart]

4. Ukraine's tradition of anti-Semitism continues.

How nice that they've gone back to their roots.

[LeftishBrit]

5. Unfortunately there are such websites everywhere, and they're hard to police

However, it's true that Ukraine, like many countries in especially Eastern Europe, has some problems with racism including antisemitism. I haven't heard of any emanating from Tymoshenko (which doesn't mean that there isn't any) but I know that one of the presidential candidates, Ratushnyak, is utterly disgusting for his general racism, antisemitism (e.g. he called a critic an 'impudent little Jew') and all-round thuggery. I don't know if he's really a serious candidate; I hope not.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

6. WHAT IS THIS DOING ON THIS FORUM??? Oberliner, why on earth would you post this HERE?

Are you suggesting that eastern European anti-semitism is rooted in the I/P conflict?

History certainly shows otherwise.

[Igel]

7. It's not the "I/P conflict forum." n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. Yes, it is.

From the guidelines above.

Welcome to the Democratic Underground Israeli/Palestinian Affairs discussion forum. As you know, this is where you may discuss issues surrounding the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians....

read on...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970

[oberliner]

8. Anti-semitism?

Can you explain what makes these claims and comments anti-semitic as opposed to simply anti-Israel or anti-Zionist? None of the cited comments in the article mention Jews.

Do you think the allegation that Israel Defense Forces soldiers have killed Palestinian civilians for their organs is anti-semitic?

[IndianaGreen]

26. No, I think these stories are used to feed the Zionists need to feel as perennial victims!

Who cares what some morons in the Ukraine or what have you, say about organ harvesting! It is a stupid story no different from the supermarket tabloid stories about Michael Jackson still being alive. What one has to ask is why are these stupid stories being picked up by mainstream press (and I don't mean the American MSM), unless there is a compulsion to play the victim card to avoid dealing with the real crimes such as the expulsion of Palestinians from East Jerusalem.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. You know very well why it's antisemitic..

So why are you cynically using an article that no-one in their right mind would dispute was an example of antisemitism in what looks to be an attempt to confuse criticism of Israel with antisemitism?

[imdjh]

62. Yes

[cali]

9. what' s with your outrage?

this is a story that's quite directly about Israel. And there are threads just as tangential as this posted all the time here.

W
hy does this make you so nuts?

[oberliner]

10. Could be mocking me

I have asked why certain items have been posted in this forum.

Although I do not believe I have ever used all caps to do so.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. I think it's completely inappropriate!

And I am upset because the unspoken assumption is that every act of anti-semitism is connected to Palestinians. In the case of Eastern Europe this is absurd. They have their own horrible history of hating Jews that has nothing to do with I/P.

This really doesn't belong here at all.

I understand why it's upsetting, and why people want to discuss it. I seriously suggest the creation of an anti-semitism forum for those who wish to do so.

[oberliner]

12. I am encouraged to hear that you believe this to be an example of anti-semitism

Especially in light of the fact that the accusations were leveled against Israel and Zionists, rather than Jews.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. I have no problem labelling anti-semitic acts thusly.

I can totally understand why you're upset.

I just don't think it has anything to do with the I/P conflict.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Why would I mock you?

[oberliner]

19. Maybe mock wasn't the right word

Perhaps "gently chide" would have been more accurate.

I know that in the past I have been critical of posts that I did not think belonged in this forum. And yet here I am posting something that, in your mind, is not appropriate for I/P.

Thus, the chiding for what appears to be hypocrisy on my part.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I for one do think this is just another example of hypocrisy on yr part...

And that's not chiding or mocking - it's calling it how it is. I have zero respect for such behaviour...

[shira]

13. why shouldn't it be here? This is just a less sophisticated way to demonize / defame Israeli Jews

...than the normal "more sophisticated" demonization and defamation campaign being carried out by people a bit more clever with their 'criticism' of Israeli Jews and their Jewish supporters.

Just in case you don't buy into that line, tell me the real difference between that kind of stupidity and this demonization by Amnesty International regarding the water situation for Palestinians....
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=12&x_article=1756

Is there a real difference between the organ harvesting claims and the water issue?

Aren't both cases examples of demonization?

In fact, if such a false and inflammatory article were written by AI about Palestinians, how would you label that article?

[azurnoir]

14. Has it been written at AI ? or HRW ? for that matter

no don't think so

[shira]

20. has what been written at AI or HRW? what do you mean?

[azurnoir]

22. the subject of the OP or alleged Israeli organ theft n/t

[shira]

23. it's demonization, whether it's organ theft accusations or AI claims of limiting water

seriously, what's the difference?

[azurnoir]

27. the organ theft is unproven and hopefully untrue

and the water disparities are quite demonstrably very true but please Shira do not let those facts stop you quite to the contrary post your links again and again that is the purpose of your pursuing this is it not?

However anyone with a calculator and ability to Google the Palestinian population of the West Bank can see the problem, it was quite transparent in your JPost link weeks ago when one could not help but notice when speaking of Israeli water usage the terms were in per capita and when speaking of the Palestinian it was only the mass amount hmmmm wonder why?
the other link with the PDF format was quite heavy in proposals, excuses and more excuses but not much substance

the Palestinian population of the West Bank excluding East Jerusalem is 2,200.000 the water allotment is 23.6 million cubic liters even doubled as Israel claims is available but for some reason not used leaves one wondering

the World Bank did not take it seriously and neither does anyone else

[shira]

31. organ theft is just "hopefully" untrue? as if there's any substance to the Ukraine claim?

as for the water issue, I've linked to 3 articles showing numerous lies throughout the AI report - in fact AI never even tried to consult with the Israel Water Authority before releasing its screed. If such an inflammatory article were written about the PA or Hamas, how would you label it? You'd claim it's 'demonstrably true'?

As for the per capita usage by Israelis vs the mass amount used by Palestinians, I have no idea what you're talking about as I cited this for you last month...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x291444#291698

[azurnoir]

32. Thanks cause as usual you neglect to cite

what I posted

this is hardly the first documentation of the water issue concerning the OPT

Israelis get four-fifths of scarce West Bank water, says World Bank

A deepening drought in the Middle East is aggravating a dispute over water resources after the World Bank found that Israel is taking four times as much water as the Palestinians from a vital shared aquifer.

The region faces a fifth consecutive year of drought this summer, but the World Bank report found huge disparities in water use between Israelis and Palestinians, although both share the mountain aquifer that runs the length of the occupied West Bank. Palestinians have access to only a fifth of the water supply, while Israel, which controls the area, takes the rest, the bank said.

Israelis use 240 cubic metres of water a person each year, against 75 cubic metres for West Bank Palestinians and 125 for Gazans, the bank said. Increasingly, West Bank Palestinians must rely on water bought from the Israeli national water company, Mekorot.

In some areas of the West Bank, Palestinians are surviving on as little as 10 to 15 litres a person each day, which is at or below humanitarian disaster response levels recommended to avoid epidemics. In Gaza, where Palestinians rely on an aquifer that has become increasingly saline and polluted, the situation is worse. Only 5%-10% of the available water is clean enough to drink.

The World Bank report, published last month, provoked sharp criticism from Israel, which disputed the figures and the scale of the problem on the Palestinian side. But others have welcomed the study and its findings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/27/israel-pale...

Israelis need it to stay secure from terror attacks, but the Palestinians see it as a barrier to making peace, and getting their fair share of water and other resources.

Alexandra Cousteau (who I spoke to while on her Expedition: Blue Planet in Israel) interviews an Arava Institute alum from the Palestinian Authority to get her take on how the security barrier affects water allocation in the West Bank. Cousteau manages to get a moderate and fair point of view from Muna Dujani, the young alum interviewed in Ramallah.

To read more about Cousteau’s amazing water education mission to Israel and the region, read It’s The Water That Binds Us.

To learn more about water allocations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, read Green Prophet’s take on the latest World Bank report

http://www.greenprophet.com/2009/04/24/8503/cousteau-wa... /

The UN’s sixteenth World Water Day, being commemorated today, is dedicated to cross-border waters. Israel and the Palestinians in the West Bank have two trans-border water systems. One is the aboveground Jordan water basin, which Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon also share. Israel prevents Palestinians any access to this water reservoir. The other is the Mountain Aquifer underground water system. The Mountain Aquifer, which crosses the Israeli and Palestinian borders, is the primary, largest, and highest quality water source for Israelis and Palestinians, providing 600 million cubic meters of water a year. Israel uses eighty percent of the output for its needs and allocates the remainder to the Palestinians.

http://www.btselem.org/english/water/20090322_internati...

and this is very revealing

The Israeli occupied West bank includes scarce water resources. The three principle underground aquifers of Palestine, marked in dark blue on the map, are found largely in the West Bank. These mountain aquifer areas have a water saturated substratum 200-600 meters deep. Light blue areas indicate land with less water, in which the thickness of the saturated subterranean stratum is no greater than 200 meters, with low potential water yield. Violet areas have little or no water.

The mountain aquifers are:

Yarkon-Tanninim Aquifer (1) This supplies Israel with about 340 million cubic meters of water annually, which are used by the Jerusalem-Tel-Aviv area. Palestinians use about 20 million cubic meters a year.

Nablus-Gilboa Aquifer (2) This supplies Israel with about 115 million cubic meters a year, largely for agricultural irrigation in the kibbutzim (communes) and moshavim (cooperative settlements) in Galilee.

The Eastern Aquifer (3) . This supplies about 40 million cubic meters annually to the Israeli settlements in the Jordan Valley, and about 60 million cubic meters to the Palestinians.

Israeli planners consider that the Yarkon-Taninim Aquifer is vital to Israeli water needs, and therefore would like to retain control of settlement blocks over that area, adjacent to the so called "center" of Israel, the Gush Dan area. It should be noted that Israel's water supply always came from these Aquifers, both during mandate times and when the land was held by Jordan.

http://www.mideastweb.org/westbankwater.htm

and please the World Bank is out to get Israel? Oy

[shira]

34. i responded to this post over a month ago with this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x291444#291698

Let's just take the 1st claim of yours for now and see how you respond to it, okay?

Your source:

Israelis get four-fifths of scarce West Bank water, says World Bank

A deepening drought in the Middle East is aggravating a dispute over water resources after the World Bank found that Israel is taking four times as much water as the Palestinians from a vital shared aquifer.

The region faces a fifth consecutive year of drought this summer, but the World Bank report found huge disparities in water use between Israelis and Palestinians, although both share the mountain aquifer that runs the length of the occupied West Bank. Palestinians have access to only a fifth of the water supply, while Israel, which controls the area, takes the rest, the bank said.

Israelis use 240 cubic metres of water a person each year, against 75 cubic metres for West Bank Palestinians and 125 for Gazans, the bank said. Increasingly, West Bank Palestinians must rely on water bought from the Israeli national water company, Mekorot.

Israel Water Authority:

"However, the Water Authority hotly disputed those figures. According to the authority, while Israelis use 408 liters per day of fresh water from natural sources, Palestinians use 287 liters per day. While acknowledging the difference between these two amounts, the authority stressed that it was nowhere near as drastic as Amnesty had portrayed it."

"However, according to the Water Authority, while Israeli access to water before 1967 came out to about 500 cubic meters per person per year, nowadays it is just 149 cu.m. per year, a drop of 70%. In contrast, from a pre-1967 86 cu.m. per person per year, Palestinian consumption has risen to 105 cu.m."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256557968809&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Interestingly enough, neither AI or the World Bank has attempted to challenge the Water Authority's facts. Do you wonder why?

At the bottom of this link is access to the Water Authority's detailed report. Compare it to AI and the World bank.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2009/Press+releases/Response_Amnesty_International_Israeli-Palestinian_water_27-Oct-2009.htm

[azurnoir]

37. So B'tselem is lying too n/t

[shira]

38. someone's lying and B'tselem quotes from the Israeli Water Authority - why would they do that?

let's be fair - even though there are inequities - and there definitely are inequities which need to be addressed - when the substance of those reports critical of Israel are compared to the report from the Water Authority, the situation is nowhere near as dark, evil, or bleak as portrayed to western audiences - do you agree or not?

I see a pattern here throughout, and it's that anything that could put Israel in a better light is ignored while anything inflammatory against Israel is accepted without question - regardless of facts which contradict many of those claims. I don't see how such blatantly one-sided reporting by organizations contributes to peace - it appears to serve as useful and inflammatory propaganda (demonization) which the warmongering and regressive authorities in the W.Bank and Gaza (Fatah and Hamas) crave.

At the very least - if the situation is as bad as reported, shouldn't we expect to see Btselem, AI, and the WB reprimanding the Water Authority, making the Authority accountable for sharing honest and thorough facts, showing why the Water Authority isn't to be trusted, etc.....and thereby open the eyes of the Israeli population and electorate so that they can see to it that responsible and honest people are put in charge of a Water Authority that is so important to so many people?

If the Water Authority can't be trusted, why does Btselem quote from them? Can you find anything on google that would give you good reason to ignore the Water Authority? I can't.

[azurnoir]

40. I am certain that you would not doubt anything Israel has to say

well at least not publicly, it would kind of defeat the purpose right?

[shira]

42. i asked a few questions - would you be so kind to attempt to answer them?

[azurnoir]

44. so now your the Grand Inquisitor?

or is more like have you now or ever
but nope not answering I would rather let you make up what ever you like

[shira]

47. i answer your questions....why is it Israel's harshest critics are incapable or unwilling to respond

...to questions?

[azurnoir]

48. Really I rarely ask them of you

you on the other are trying to emulate another posters style of asking no wins or looking for an excuse to post more stuff from CAMERA, MFA or where ever

[shira]

51. LOL!

"looking for an excuse to post from MFA, CAMERA..."

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

88. yes indeed B'tselem does use the Israeli Water Authority

as a reference here is an example of that

The UN’s sixteenth World Water Day, being commemorated today, is dedicated to cross-border waters. Israel and the Palestinians in the West Bank have two trans-border water systems. One is the aboveground Jordan water basin, which Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon also share. Israel prevents Palestinians any access to this water reservoir. The other is the Mountain Aquifer underground water system. The Mountain Aquifer, which crosses the Israeli and Palestinian borders, is the primary, largest, and highest quality water source for Israelis and Palestinians, providing 600 million cubic meters of water a year. Israel uses eighty percent of the output for its needs and allocates the remainder to the Palestinians.

Laundry without running water, al-Maliah Village, Tubas District. Photo: Atef Abu a-Rub, 23 March 2009
Doing laundry without running water, al-Maliah Village, Tubas District. Photo: Atef Abu a-Rub, 23 March 2009

Discriminatory and unfair division of the shared water sources creates a chronic water shortage in the West Bank. Average per capita daily water consumption of Palestinians in the West Bank is two-thirds of the amount recommended by the World Health Organization. Due to the shortage, many Palestinians have to buy water from tankers at three to six times higher than regular prices, forcing poor families to spend up to one-fifth of their income on water, compared to the slightly more than one percent that average-income Israeli families spend on water.

Avg. Daily Water Needed per Person in cubic meters


* Recomende Miniumum according to the World Health Organization (WHO)

The water shortage in the West Bank is aggravated in drought years, as occurred last year, or in arid years, like this year. The water shortage is not felt in household use or allocation of water to residents of Israel or to settlers in the West Bank.

An extreme example of the inequality is seen in the average daily per capita water consumption of the 396 settlers living in Pnei Hever, in Hebron District (194 liters), compared to the figure for the 70,000 Palestinians living in the eight kilometers away in the town of Yatta (27 liters).
Precentage of monthly expanditure on water per family


Cost of Ten cubic meters per Household
Monthly Expenditure on Water Cost of Ten cubic meters per Household

The water shortage in the West Bank also results from the neglect in building water infrastructure and the handling of sewage in the West Bank during the course of the Israeli occupation. Even after establishment of the Palestinian Authority, and transfer of the responsibility for the Palestinian water economy into the hands of the Palestinians, Israel, which currently controls sixty percent of the land area of the West Bank, makes it difficult for the Palestinian Authority to carry out plans to build and improve water infrastructure. In 2008, 227,500 Palestinians, in 220 towns and villages were not connected to a water network. Another 190,000 Palestinians live in towns and villages in which a water network covered only part of the community. The old infrastructure results in the loss of two-thirds of the water running through the network, three times the average water loss in water networks in Israel. The lack of regular treatment of most Palestinian sewage in the West Bank prevents purification and use for agricultural irrigation needs.

The discriminatory and unfair division of shared water sources violates the right of Palestinians to water, sanitation, and health. In addition, Israel’s policy violates the rights of Palestinians to gain a livelihood, by preventing development of the agricultural sector, one of the most important branches of the Palestinian economy.

More statistics:

* Average daily use for flushing toilets in Israel: 55-60 liters
* Average daily use for taking showers in Israel: 55-60 liters.

* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 48,000 residents of Tubas District, in the northeastern West Bank, is 30 liters.
* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 175 settlers in Beka’ot, in the Jordan Valley, twelve kilometers southeast of Tubas, is 401 liters.

* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 180,000 residents of Bethlehem District, south of Jerusalem, is 71 liters
* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 7,714 residents of the Efrat settlement, which lies 6.5 kilometers east of Bethlehem, consume an average of 217 liters.

Sources:
Yatta Municipality; The Israel Water Authority, "Water allocations for 2008 for administrative area – in thousands of cubic meters, household water flow, water tariffs in local authorities and water and sewage corporations"; Palestinian Water Authority; Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, Local Authorities in Israel 2006; Palestinian Hydrology Group," Water for Life: The Dilemma of Development Under Occupation", "2006"; Wikipedi

http://www.btselem.org/English/Water/20090322_International_water_day.asp

But I am glad you feel B'tselem is being honest about this

it is past thehe 48 hor limit so I will PM you that I have replied

[shira]

90. so what's going on? Water Authority claims one thing, AI and WB another....what's going on?

Who do you trust and why?

[azurnoir]

91. I'll go with B'tselem here again are those stats

Average daily use for flushing toilets in Israel: 55-60 liters
* Average daily use for taking showers in Israel: 55-60 liters.

* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 48,000 residents of Tubas District, in the northeastern West Bank, is 30 liters.
* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 175 settlers in Beka’ot, in the Jordan Valley, twelve kilometers southeast of Tubas, is 401 liters.

* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 180,000 residents of Bethlehem District, south of Jerusalem, is 71 liters
* Average daily per capita water consumption for the 7,714 residents of the Efrat settlement, which lies 6.5 kilometers east of Bethlehem, consume an average of 217 liters.

[shira]

93. but what about the claims from the Water Authority?

[azurnoir]

96. The stats I cited came for the most part from the water authority

so now B'tselem too is lying?

[shira]

98. have you read the report from the Water Authority? Or are they lying? That's why I ask who you trust

[azurnoir]

99. Yes I have

they misrepresent and the major defense is the Palestinians said it was ok apprently things have changed and again they do not even do that very well as that is where B'tselem got its stas

[shira]

101. so you think the Water Authority is dishonest...okay, how? Make a case.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

100. Amnesty says: The Palestinians don't have fair access to water.

Israel says: We are abiding by the water agreements of Oslo. That doesn't really answer the question at hand.

(as a side not.... What I find really funny is this: through out the Israeli report there are snide comments such as: "the Palestians aren't in a hurry to do this, etc." Ironically, my husband is an internationally recognized expert in this general area, who tried to live there... was working on international funding for these issues and HE WAS ESSENTIALLY DEPORTED. Can someone tell me why the gov't of Israel would not grant permission for a Gazan -- with a PhD in a growth water field... with perfect english... with experience living in a Western democracy... who was teaching at the university... who was working with internaional NGOs on development issues... why would Israel NOT ALLOW THIS MAN TO LEGALLY LIVE IN RAMALLAH?)

These reports are one more nail in the coffin of the PA. Much of what was negotiated in the early 90s was done with the purpose of (not so much lining Arafat's personal pocket) but with allowing him to create a crony network. Deals were not conducted to build societal infrastructure.

Rather Irsrael defending its adherenece to bad agreements, maybe it's time to renegotiate a more just agreement.

[shira]

102. The Water Authority report is very thorough.....name one thing demonstrably dishonest in it

[ProgressiveMuslim]

105. I just edited my comment... I didn't say the report lied. I said it didn't asnwer the question.

[shira]

117. Fair access meaning according to Oslo agreements? Palestinians have that.

The PA and Israel made agreements 15 years ago and Israel has kept up its end. So why are they to blame?

Also, is it Israel's fault that the PA refuses to use waste water for irrigation and other purposes that would free up more fresh water for consumption?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

126. So ironic. My husband, a wastewater expert, was effectively deported while working with int'l NGOs

on these issues, while a prof at a Palestinian university.

Those stupid lazy Palestinians just don't care, do they?

[shira]

128. was he the only wastewater expert or did Israel deport all the Palestinian experts on wastewater

...and ever since, the PA has never looked to replace them?

Has he read the WA report? In a list of recommendations, the WA says that if the PA follows just the first three, including wastewater management, that would double the amount of water that can be used for Palestinian consumption.

Does he agree with that?

Here it is...

============

Realistic solutions to the problem of water shortage are those that derive from the principles
that were determined in the Water Agreement signed by the two sides, in terms of both
international law and responsible and sustainable management, principally:

a. Reduction of water losses and conservation.
b. Full exploitation by the Palestinians of the eastern basin in the Mountain
Aquifer.
c. Treatment of wastewater and reuse of the effluent as well as stormwater for
irrigation.
d. Desalination of brackish water and seawater for domestic use.
e. Cooperation for optimal utilization of all the water sources, adoption of
advanced technologies and management techniques.
f. Concerted regional efforts to increase the total quantity of available water.

Implementation of the first three activities will double the total quantity of water that
will be available for domestic use by the Palestinians.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

131. It's mind=boggling that experts who can actually make a difference were and are forbidden

from being there.

[azurnoir]

133. Again B'tselem answers your questions

and the one you posed earlier I'll answer here because B'tselem covers that and its very close to the "magic" 48hrs

Water issues under the Oslo Accords

The interim agreement that Israel and the Palestinian Authority signed in September 1995 (Oslo 2) includes the most updated understanding on water that has been reached in the peace process framework. It is also more detailed than previous documents. The subject appears in article 40 of the Protocol on Civil Affairs (Annex 3). Israeli officials relate to it as a turning point at which responsibility for the water sector is transferred to the Palestinian Authority. However, this agreement did not significantly change the scope of Israeli control.

The point of departure for the understanding on division of water from the shared sources is that the quantity of water that Israel consumes, both within the Green Line and in the settlements, will not be reduced. According to this principle, any additional water for the Palestinians would be produced from previously unutilized sources, and not by re-distribution of existing sources. This means that almost every addition of water to the Palestinians under this agreement must come from the Eastern Aquifer of the West Bank, which, according to the agreement itself, is the only source that had not been fully utilized prior to signing of the agreement.

In the Oslo Accords, Israel recognized that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank comprise one territorial unit. However, the Interim Agreement stipulates that, regarding water resources, the Gaza Strip will constitute a separate water sector. Other than the small quantity that Israel undertook to sell, residents of the Gaza Strip will have to meet their needs solely from resources located within its borders, i.e., they are not allowed to obtain water from the West Bank. The failure of the Interim Agreement to re-distribute the water resources shared by the West Bank and Israel prevented any "surplus" of water in the West Bank that could increase the supply of water to the Gaza Strip. As a result, the severance of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank continued, further damaging the Gaza Aquifer because of the necessity to continue the over-extraction.

Pursuant to the Interim Agreement, the parties established the Joint Water Committee (JWC), the body charged with approving every new water and sewage project in the West Bank. The JWC is comprised of an equal number of representatives of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. All its decisions are made by consensus, and no mechanism is established to settle disputes where a consensus cannot be attained. This method of decision-making means that Israel is able to veto any request by the Palestinian representatives to drill a new well to obtain the additions stipulated in the agreement.

Israel's control of extraction of water from the shared aquifers is not limited to its veto power in the JWC over new drillings. If a well approved by the JWC is situated in Area C, which is under Israel's complete control, the High Planning Committee of the Civil Administration must also approve the project.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Oslo_Accords.asp

[shira]

138. what exactly do you believe Btselem addressed?

How about lining up my question with their exact response to that concern, if you'd be so kind?

I honestly don't see how Btselem addressed the WA observations and recommendations.

[azurnoir]

139. Try reading or just into misleading title lines?

B'tselem covered it all including why nothing gets done

[shira]

142. so please match Btselem replies to the observations and recommendations of the WA

the fact is that Btselem ignores almost all of what the WA reported and fails to hold the PA accountable for most of the situation.

[azurnoir]

144. I will not do the work for you read it n/t

[shira]

148. no work to be done - you were wrong and Btselem did not address the WA report

[azurnoir]

152. a predictable claim I would invite anyone to read what I posted

thanks for playing; though I see your not making much headway with anyone on this thread

[azurnoir]

94. also the water issue which has been well documented

has not one whit to do with the actual subject of this thread, here you had in your grasp the perfect example of "demonization" but you treat the entire issue like a zero sum game and try to attach it other things that are not quite so clear cut and not involved, why?

[shira]

97. yes, well documented by the Water Authority....whose major claims are ignored - WHY?

the Water Authority gives a completely different picture of the situation, don't you agree?

[azurnoir]

103. B'tselem used the WA's own stats the WA simply spun them

but you do not get it on this thread you had the proverbial $69,000,000 prize but that's not enough you have to make it $70,000,000 and in doing so blow the whole thing
what I am telling has nothing to do with either claims of organ theft or water allocation but more an approach

[shira]

104. you say the WA spun stats.....explain please, make your case.

from the WA...

The Palestinians are avoiding treatment of wastewater and reuse of the treated effluents for
irrigation, a move that would free large quantities of fresh water for domestic use, while also
preventing contamination of groundwater and environmental pollution. At times, this is
explained on the basis of a religious prohibition, which is puzzling as neighbouring Arab
countries treat wastewater and use the effluent for irrigation of agricultural lands.

It also appears that for tactical reasons of negotiation, the Palestinians do not wish to discuss
desalination as a concrete solution (for the West Bank) or regional schemes.

This Palestinian position may be summed up as follows: "Give us (Israel to the Palestinians)
all the fresh water we need for the present and the future, take (Israel from the Palestinians)
the wastewater that we generate, and desalinate seawater in place of the water we are taking
from you."

What do you think of that?

[azurnoir]

106. I think B'tselem addressed that too

please reread what I posted from them

[shira]

118. where did Btselem mention that Israel wasn't providing the amount of water agreed to since Oslo?

Is it Israel's fault that the PA negotiators didn't ask for enough at Oslo? You think the PA are a bunch of morons and that's Israel's fault? In the WB, Palestinians are getting more than what Oslo stipulated 15 years ago, not less.

Is it Israel's fault that the PA chooses to not reuse wastewater for irrigation purposes so that more fresh water can be freed for consumption purposes?

If you read the WA report, if the PA does what Israel has been suggesting for years (including recycling wastewater) they can double their amount of fresh water available for consumption.

========

Let's agree at the very least that the PA is almost entirely to blame for the water situation in the WB, so why is Israel being singled out and demonized as if they're up to no good against the poor PA?

Israel also has water agreements with Jordan and they're keeping those agreements too....is it Israel's fault if Jordan ever chooses to squander water and mess things up for their own people? If not, then why blame Israel for the PA's incompetence?

[azurnoir]

108. I added something to #103 so go back and read it please

I do not mean it in a bad way

[pelsar]

35. your posts constantly reaffirm my reasons for living in israel....constantly

the organ theft is unproven and hopefully untrue

i guess in your world view the `iranian TV show of Zaras Blue eyes, the egyptian version of the protocols of zion, etc....may have some basis in reality.....
___

your default position is pretty consistent....until proven otherwise israel is guilty of any accusation no matter how bizzare or extreme....25,000 children?....

little has changed....just morphed a bit.

[azurnoir]

36. LOL what a self serving and willful misinterpetation

but I have come to expect that sort of thing

[shira]

39. so why did you write that the organ theft of 25000 kids was 'unproven and hopefully untrue'?

why not just write that you believe that accusation to be ridiculous and absurd idiotic and hateful garbage?

[azurnoir]

41. Are you implying that it is not unproven and

possibly true? I am shocked at that

[shira]

43. your words suggest there's a chance, no matter how slight, that it could be true

i'm asking why you didn't call that accusation ridiculous, absurd, idiotic, and hateful garbage?

[azurnoir]

45. Because I never call anything absurd hateful garbage

even when I think it is, rather I find willful misinterpretation kind of entertaining

[shira]

46. so do you think there's a slight chance the 25000 ukranian child organ donors is true?

[azurnoir]

49. Probably not n/t

[shira]

50. 'probably not'?

there were reports that 911 was caused by some jews who called other jews in the WTC and advised them not to show up for work.

you think that's probably not true?

[azurnoir]

52. I would say that's probably also not true n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

82. I have heard accusations that the Shin Bet has stolen organs from the bodies of dead Palestinians.

It was commonly thought among Palestinians that one of the reasons the IDF would steal bodies from hospitals and return them cut open and sewn shut (people who died of gunshot wounds have to have "autopsies") was to take organs.

Would you categorically deny this?

I have no belief whatsoever that 25,000 kids were brought into Israel to be used as spare parts. There is no abuse of Palestinians that I put past the Shin Bet, however.

[shira]

87. and not one shred of proof, right?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

112. Cut up corpses.

Palestinians tend to bury them immediately though, because like Jews, Muslims need to get bodies buried ASAP. Palestinians often resorted to taking bodies from hospitals before the Shin Bet could get them. That much I know for fact.

[oberliner]

114. Israel organ harvesting scandal 'medically impossible'

Aftonbladet's organ harvesting allegations are ludicrous from a medical perspective, writes Andrea Meyerhoff MD, Associate Professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, who also argues that Sweden missed an opportunity to "reject anti-Semitism and reaffirm principles of good journalism."

http://www.thelocal.se/21798/20090831/

[ProgressiveMuslim]

115. I would agree with that...

but I also know bodies of Palestinian dead were desecrated by Shin Bet.

I hate these bogus anti-semitic claims, if for no other reason that we debate this nonsense rather than the Shin Bet forcing Palestinians to become collaborators if they want medical treatment.

Reality is quite ugly enough without absurd nonsense clouding the picture.

[pelsar]

121. that to me is the real real real key here

Reality is quite ugly enough without absurd nonsense clouding the picture.

[LeftishBrit]

140. Very true

As I've said on another thread, to be any use organs must be professionally removed and stored properly immediately after death. Battlefields and bomb sites are not usually equipped with transplant surgeons. An organ that was removed by a 'grave robber' some time after death would be of no use for transplantation purposes.

[Dick Dastardly]

147. Not totally true. It is possible to be done.

Many organs are harvested after accidents causing death occured in less than ideal conditions and where time has passed since the death and the harvesting. Some organs have a longer shelf life so to speak after death. There is also cases where people have had organs like kidneys removed in hotel rooms after they were drugged.

That said it is not occuring, but as I said it is possible to do.

[pelsar]

53. good....is probably better that way...

it probably better that when people make absurd accusations and others probably assume that they might possibly be true, that i assume that they mean it.

not so good for trust, but probably better for me ......of course since others probably might mean it when they talk of removing israel from the face of the earth etc.....why be upset if we probably might do something about it...they probably mean it.

i would assume that you might write that i probably misinterpreted what you wrote....but i probably didn't....its probably true what i understood.

[azurnoir]

54. No what I actually wrote was

"willful misinterpretation" that means you intentionally twisted what I wrote and BTW the comment was intended and tailored for the poster I was replying to and if you follow the thread you will see I have continued in the same vein

However I am glad you decided to speak for yourself because I found your initial comment that people like me are why your glad your in Israel and it made me wonder why again did you leave the US and just what is it about people like me? or what are people like me? are we antisemites or is it something else I seem to remember some of what you have written concerning leaving a Detroit suburb for Israel

[pelsar]

55. on the contrary it is EXACTLY what you meant....

you made it perfectly clear that its quite possible that israel imported 25,000 kids and stole their organs.......probably not....means its still possible
not a whole lot to "misinterpret"........and yes i noticed that you wrote:

"Because I never call anything absurd hateful garbage"

...but that to me is nothing more than a cop out...to give those a "pass' to write such things and to continue with their hate as opposed to attempting to limit their anti Semitic garbage.

the comment of "people like you".....is where the muddling of anti semitism is mixed with a variety of anti-colonialism, anti israel, anti militarism, anti white, anti-imperalism, and whole bunch of others all focusing on little israel. i have no idea what your "beef" with israel is, but anyone who actually believes that its possible for israel to do such a thing obviously believes the israeli society is some kind of monster.

and combine that with all the other groups who have their own gripe with israel, from hamas to hizballa, to iran, to Human rights, and one gets quite a ganging up on israel, with the lines being verv very very blurry.

there is always much discussion about legit criticism vs whats not....your a perfect example of someone who is purposely blurring the lines.

[azurnoir]

56. Wow

the comment of "people like you".....is where the muddling of anti semitism is mixed with a variety of anti-colonialism, anti israel, anti militarism, anti white, anti-imperalism, and whole bunch of others all focusing on little israel. i have no idea what your "beef" with israel is, but anyone who actually believes that its possible for israel to do such a thing obviously believes the israeli society is some kind of monster.

all I can do is shake my head my so called "beef" with Israel has to do with the occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza isn't that what the on going discussion here has been about. however you sir have crossed the line of what is rational and your intentional misinterpretation of my comment is quite tiring

but yes anything is possible however not everything is probable and as a poster said hours ago it would have taken the co-operation of the Ukranians themselves for something like this to occur I mean the disappearance 25,0000 children would hardly go unnoticed,, or in short the entire premise was so ridiculous that I felt that part need not mentioned at least to thinking people

eta I suppose that I did not say Israel would never ever do anything like will be pounced on but as I said the entire premise of the OP was ridiculous

[pelsar]

57. yes wow is right....so which is it?...ridiculous or probably not true?

your wrote:

in short the entire premise was so ridiculous that I felt that part need not mentioned at least to thinking people

yet, and i quote when your asked if its true:

Probably not n/t

__________

probably not.....is not the same thing as ridiculous...is it?




gaza and the westbank, in this particular section are actually not part of the discussion, hence my question of "whats your beef", i wasn't thinking of that aspect.... At the sametime organ theft has nothing to do with the occupation directly, but everything to do with the character of the israeli society.

[azurnoir]

58. Which is it?

your not gunna like this but in my mind its both probabilities are variable and in this case it's 999999999.999999.......% chance its complete BS

to find out what my motive here was you would have to back to my original comment on this thread which dealt with another poster comparing this claim to something quite unrelated that does deal with the West Bank and Gaza and it irritated me

[pelsar]

66. its not a matter of "liking it or not..its a matter of the implications....

a major problem of the conflict is the demonization of the other...the fact that you actually leave a possibility for it to be true is in itself not a bad thing (who in their right mind would have believed the industrial genocide of WWII was possible?).

the problem, as i see it, as that it actually aids in the empowerment of the extremists....and that is the greater problem. I read it...i shake my head, realizing that nothing has really changed..and i read that even the nice progressives empower such accusations....(its like seeing a hamas posters at a israeli/pals peace rally.....which means its not about peace, not for the Palestinians and not for the israelis.)

hence the direct negative affect on the conflict.....those shitheads should be denounced not just by the left, but the Palestinians as well.....if they want my support. (of course they may not at least not at the price of the emotional "feel good" part of the demonization)


a side point:
the tunnels from egypt are a growth business and gazans and others invest in them as people invest in any business, and hamas taxes them. It turns out that some of the businessman in gaza are con men, posed as hamas reps, got gazans to invest in "tunnels' that were never built and took off with hundreds and thousands of dollars. Why do I write this?...to remind those here that the gazans are a society like every where else....not some monolithic, entity that has but one goal in mind, they too have their corrupt politicians, con men, etc-just like israel

[azurnoir]

67. Well actually

I can honestly say about this quote

a major problem of the conflict is the demonization of the other...the fact that you actually leave a possibility for it to be true is in itself not a bad thing (who in their right mind would have believed the industrial genocide of WWII was possible?).

I would have believed it possible, perhaps not probable but my variable would have been much larger in favor of it happening than in this case which BTW was simply a number to give you an idea of just how small I thought the chance was, but when it comes to what humans will or will not do I literally will not rule out anything, it is not demonization it's just that to me people are capable of effing anything especially when there is a buck involved, now in this case the accusation seemed to imply that the Israeli government was involved and that is really not to likely and given the Ukrainian history of on going antisemitism it's probably BS and I can say quite comfortably that I do not believe it

eta but then who's to say I'm in my "right" mind:-)

[pelsar]

68. ......you've made yourself very clear....and i can support your view...

the part about you not being in your "right" mind"....as well as your belief that what we can do to each other, has no limits...

good to hear the clarification...and i definitely understand at same time believe it can be dangerous in this conflict.

[varelse]

65. Legitimate, fact-based criticism is not demonisation

There is a difference between criticism and demonisation: no government or individual is above criticism.

[shira]

69. the organ theft is demonization, do you agree?

as for the recent water claims by Amnesty and World Bank, did you read the responses to their reports? Their reports go way beyond legitimate criticism into vilification and demonization, via disinformation, false facts, omissions, and anything that would paint Israel in the darkest colors imaginable.

And that's why I brought it up - as I see no distinction between the organ theft claim and the water claim. Both are examples of demonization, even if the water claims have some small element of truth to them.

Let's at least agree that if anyone reported the same way against Muslims or Arabs, and made a mountain out of a mole hill with lies, omissions, and exaggerations - you'd quickly denounce such disgusting demonization tactics, right?

[varelse]

71. You see no distinction between an obvious, and in fact very common smear tactic

and a claim made by not one, but by several human rights organizations.

I do make the distinction. One could be classed as demonization, but the other is clearly criticism of the government.

[shira]

78. you give these HR groups the benefit of the doubt

it doesn't matter that their facts are exaggerated or outright lies. Because you trust the source of that propaganda, you think it's legitimate criticism.

The real question is, what amount of evidence will it take to convince you that your trusted sources are deliberate manipulators of the truth?

For example, you believe because they say so that Hamas doesn't intentionally use Palestinians as human shields - right?

[varelse]

80. Actually I give Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International a great deal of credit

I do not doubt either their good intentions or the accuracy of their reports.

I'm far more inclined to doubt your word as opposed to theirs.

[shira]

84. but HRW and AI claim Hamas never intentionally used Palestinians as human shields

You realize there is evidence that can be found on google (via video, news sources, Hamas' own words) that show AI and HRW are lying? You realize people from Btselem and Rabbis for HR blasted the Goldstone Report for going along with AI and HRW's denial of human shields?

[varelse]

113. Never, eh?

How would one prove a negative like that?

Or did they merely report that they could find no evidence to support such claims? An entirely different prospect, of course.

[shira]

116. good point....and google shows video, news articles, and Hamas statements showing evidence

have you seen any of that evidence that AI , Goldstone, and HRW say is unsupported?

just wondering.

[varelse]

119. I haven't even seen the statements you're referring to

[shira]

122. okay then, look at this and let me know what you think...

Remember, Goldstone confirmed AI and HRW's statements about 'finding no evidence...'

1. Mixing in with civilians wearing civilian clothes while in combat
2. Directing civilians to be human shields
3. Using hospitals as a shield
4. Mosques

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736#clothes

5. Zeitoun Hamas militant activity

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736#zeitoun%20militants

6. UN school building

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736#fakhoura

[varelse]

124. Camera?

:rofl:

No thanks. AI and HRW aren't my only sources, btw. Some of them are in that old fashioned hard copy format. Sadly, books can't really be discussed in this pathetic dungeon.

[shira]

125. those are all mainstream sources that are cited by CAMERA, easily confirmed via google

would it really help if I linked to each claim from each MSM outlet?

would that even make a difference to you?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

127. Again, it's 2 different conversations. AI: Israel doesn't provide fair access.

Israel: we abide by agreements made 15 years ago (with a corrupt gov't that is now out of power, etc.)

Does the agreement need to be revisited is my question.

[shira]

129. see my question to you in #128 about wastewater management and other actions that would double

the amount of fresh water available to Palestinians.

Is that true according to your husband?

[varelse]

130. Why not try it and see? (nt)

[shira]

132. would it make a difference if what CAMERA claimed is true? just asking...

did you read these claims?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x295077#295457

they clearly show HRW and AI are lying about 'no evidence' assuming the sources are legit and CAMERA isn't making anything up, right or wrong?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

136. Shira, your goal is clearly to demonize internationally respected rights organizations.

How can one have a conversation with you?

Do you honestly believe that AI is out to make Israel the devil rather than to address an injustice that is pretty clear?


Again, the issue today is NOT "is Israel adhering to the agreements brokered under Oslo." The issue is: are the agreements fair?

Amnesty International is not satanic for asking that question... but I am beginning to question your ethics for trying to smear them!

As an aside: Shira, go have a glass of water in Gaza and then tell us that everything is hunky dory.

It was brackish in 1997. I can only imagine what it is now. I will never forget in the late 80s running to the outside tap with empty bottles so that we could fill them with drinking water. Because back in the day, the Isareli authorities only supplied fresh water for an hour or so a day. If you missed the "fill-up" time, you missed your chance.

The lovely settlers always had crystal blue water in their swimming pools, though.

[shira]

137. quoting MSM sources, Hamas, and providing contradictory video is demonization of HR groups?

What then counts as legitimate criticism?

============

As for the quality of water, it's clear the PA (and Hamas) is not doing nearly enough to address serious concerns. What are they waiting for? Do you think they're corrupt, inept, unaccountable - all, none, or other?

Let's face it...Israel could decide to just let their own situation go to shit and do the crappy job the PA (and Hamas) does. This would lead to far less water consumption by Israelis. This would narrow the gap between Palestinians and Israelis. Problem solved, right? Now that would be stupid for Israel, but if you think about it, that's almost all that is needed to "narrow" the gap between the 2 societies and "disprove" that Israel is wronging the Palestinians. The bottom line is that the PA needs to work more for their people and be held accountable. Frankly, I don't see why people such as yourself and your husband allows the PA to shit all over Palestinians.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

141. SHIRA: MY HUSBAND WAS DEPORTED FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES. BY ISRAEL.

He's not able to hold the PA accountable. He's not allowed to BE THERE!!!!!!!!

But you can always go live there anytime your little heart chooses.

He was was born there is banned, while you.... Enjoy your immoral, unconscionable privilege. It comes on the backs of innocent victims.

[shira]

143. what does your husband say about the PA's job at handling the water situation?

I seriously doubt he thinks they're doing the best they can with with what they have.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

145. What do you say about the gov't you love deporting western-educated technical people

who could make a positive difference?

[shira]

149. what was the reason given for deportation?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

151. Reason? He has a Gazan huwiyye.

Isn't the only salient fact about him?

Would it matter that he has a PhD in environmental engingeering?
Would it matter that he lived for 6 years in the US, and was a US citizen?
Would it matter that he was a political moderate?
Would it matter that he was a university professor?
Would it matter that he was working with international NGOs to solve critical water issues?
Would it matter that he had a wife and 2 kids?
Would it matter that he had experience living under the rule of law in a Western Democracy?

I supposed when your system is arranged such that the most important fact about you is the religion and location of your mother's vagina, those decisions makes sense.

Shira's mother's vagina is Jewish. Shira is welcome to live any place in Israel as well as in much of the occupied territories, for that matter. My mother-in-law's vagina is Muslim. And it was physically located in Khan Younis.

Enough said, right?

[varelse]

146. Assuming CAMERA isn't making anything up?

But that HRW and AI are doing just that.

Prove it.

[shira]

150. CAMERA isn't making anything up, but you want proof so let's start

From the section in CAMERA about Hamas mixing in with and wearing civilian clothes...
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736#clothes

Shireen Shihab, 30, a resident of Gaza City, said Monday that she had seen Hamas fighters firing rockets toward Israel from a site two blocks away from her home. She said she and others could not express any opposition for fear of being labeled spies.

Shihab, a former supporter of Fatah, the secularist rival of Hamas, said that the Israelis and their pro-Western Palestinian allies from Fatah were "using the people," killing them to make Hamas pay a price.

Among the survivors of the Samouni family, opinions were divided. Some blessed the resistance. But Hamada Al-Samouni, 28, who was lightly wounded by the Israeli rocket and was clearly still in shock, said this was all happening "because of the rockets" fired by Hamas.

He said he saw the bodies of eight Hamas fighters dressed in civilian clothing lying in the streets around Zeitoun. They had been lying there for two days and nobody had come to collect them, he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/world/africa/06iht-06scene.19110818.html

Unwilling to take Israel’s bait and come into the open, Hamas militants are fighting in civilian clothes; even the police have been ordered to take off their uniforms. The militants emerge from tunnels to shoot automatic weapons or antitank missiles, then disappear back inside, hoping to lure the Israeli soldiers with their fire.

In one apartment building in Zeitoun, in northern Gaza, Hamas set an inventive, deadly trap. According to an Israeli journalist embedded with Israeli troops, the militants placed a mannequin in a hallway off the building’s main entrance. They hoped to draw fire from Israeli soldiers who might, through the blur of night vision goggles and split-second decisions, mistake the figure for a fighter. The mannequin was rigged to explode and bring down the building.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html

He said the fighters constantly changed their locations and tactics. They never attacked from the same place twice. They had secret means of communication, and spread disinformation to confuse the Israelis when speaking on their radios. They wore civilian clothes, concealed their weapons, and no longer walked around in groups.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5497340.ece

As the Israeli incursion rumbles into a 17th day, witnesses in Gaza and analysts portray the Islamic militant group as battered but defiant. Its
walkie-talkie networks bleep and scratch through alleys, and its fighters, many in civilian clothes, move with the stealth of urban guerrillas, booby-
trapping neighborhoods, communicating through e-mails, text messages and whispers in marketplaces.

http://www.inss.org.il/upload/(FILE)1231824562.pdf

The high visibility of uniformed Hamas police stood in contrast to the furtive movements of Hamas fighters in civilian clothing who confronted or tried to evade the Israeli onslaught that began Dec. 27. Some have suspected the Islamic group was in disarray, but even some Israeli observers have acknowledged that the tightly knit organization remains largely intact.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/19/world/main4734072.shtml?source=related_story

So that section checks out, right?

Before moving on - what do you now think of the Goldstone Commissions claims...

REPORT: Paragraphs 495 (493) and 1953 (1750) assert:

The Mission ... found no evidence that members of Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat in civilian dress.

And where do you find HRW and AI blasting Hamas or "armed Palestinian groups" in Gaza for deliberately mixing in and blending with civilians while in combat?

======

See, I'm willing to bet that before moving on and showing all the rest of CAMERA's citations to be true that the evidence above will not make one bit of difference to you.

[varelse]

153. The report you cite says they found no evidence, yet your claim is different

you claimed that AI and HRW have both said Hamas *never* used Palestinians as human shields.

What does this have to do with the denial of water to people living in the occupied territories, by the way? Or comparing such a criticism of the Isreali government with the obviously false and very common nasty rumor (it's been spread about US citizens as well, in South America) about Isreal importing children to use as organ donors?

[shira]

154. and you believe AI, HRW, Goldstone......that they found no evidence?

You still trust AI, HRW, and Goldstone when it comes to human shielding (mixing with civilians, etc)?

I wrote earlier 'good point' to your reply - as I shouldn't have written about HRW, AI claiming Hamas 'never' used human shields. My bad.

This is all about credibility. My contention, and I believe it's easily proven, is that AI and HRW demonize Israel by trying to cast Israel in the darkest light possible. Whether it's the water issue or human shielding. You see, it doesn't really work out too well for HRW, AI, and Goldstone to admit that Hamas deliberately uses Palestinians as shields b/c if they did that, it would be more difficult for them to accuse Israel of intentionally targeting civilians.

It's demonization whether it's the BS water claims, the organ harvesting, or the blood libel about Israel deliberately targeting civilians (while denying Hamas is cynically using those civilians as shields).

[varelse]

155. Yes, I do

Goldstone did try to get permission to conduct an investigation in Israel and was turned down. It's not all that much of a stretch for me to believe that the commission found no evidence, because the investigation was limited.

I do not believe that any of the three organizations has committed "blood libel" or has attempted to demonize the Israeli government merely by criticizing goverment policy and actions.

I would never rely on just those three sources, however. I have read, as I said earlier, hard copy sources (aka books) in which similar claims have been made very credibly. That is why I do not believe that the policy of denying water, medical supplies, food, and essential services to persons living in the Occupied Territories are false and could be characterized as "demonization".

[shira]

156. what does Israel not working with Goldston have to do with HRW/AI ignoring MSM sources showing...

...Hamas mixing in with civilians intentionally?

Here's a video showing it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPZlgg9o4Us&feature=player_embedded

I'd show you more, but how much evidence of Hamas mixing deliberately with civilians do you require in order to realize that's exactly what they intended to do - and what HRW, AI, Goldstone, etc..deliberately ignore?

[varelse]

157. Goldstone never got into the country or the occupied territories

It's a little rich to accuse his commission of deliberately ignoring anything that happened there.

AI and HRW may or may not accept CAMERA and Youtube as sources - they conducted their own independent investigations, but I doubt they "deliberately ignored" any credible evidence or testimony they obtained.

[shira]

158. Goldstone made it clear he would consider any submission of evidence/testimony until June 30

Do you realize third parties submitted all the news articles I just cited for you (and many more) along with video evidence?

Goldstone ignored and minimized all that evidence and testimony - which can be easily found via google.

The sources aren't CAMERA and youtube, but rather, MSM sources and video proof out of Gaza.

=======

You don't trust those MSM sources that claim Hamas mixed in with civilians by not wearing uniforms?

[varelse]

160. The mixing of soldiers and civilians in an occupied territory /= "using human shields"

Given the fact that the war zone was also the home of both soldiers and civilians, it would have been impossible to keep them completely separated. The IDF was fighting away from their civilians; any fighters in the Occupied territories would not have had that luxury UNLESS they were somehow able to invade Israel.

[shira]

161. do you believe Hamas was not obligated to wear military uniforms distinguishing themselves from...

...civilians?

Why else would those MSM sources make such a big deal about Hamas wearing civilian clothes while in combat if that didn't constitute a major war crime?

[varelse]

162. They can afford uniforms?

What would you suggest, skins vs shirts? (we know who would be shirtless).

On a more serious note, if my country is ever invaded and occupied, I would support and condone the abandonment of military uniforms - in fact, I would be fighting right along with our military if they allowed it, and if they did not permit me to serve in that way, I would run supplies or help in the hospital.

I don't expect more of the people of any other sovereign state.

[shira]

163. Hamas has uniforms and they are obligated to wear them in order to distinguish themselves from...

...Palestinian civilians.

"Deliberately using civilians to deter attacks on military targets amounts to 'human shielding,' which is a war crime."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418591408&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

You should read the rest of that article, as it shows that within HRW's ranks there are people whose views are being censored WRT Hamas war crimes. Realize that what the representative from HRW states is contrary to Goldstone, HRW, and AI's reports about "no evidence...".

But more specifically, regarding militants wearing civilian attire...

Goldstone Report
493. The reports received by the Mission suggest that it is likely that the Palestinian armed
groups did not at all times adequately distinguish themselves from the civilian population among
whom the hostilities were being conducted. Their failure to distinguish themselves from the
civilian population by distinctive signs is not a violation of international law in itself, but would
have denied them some of the legal privileges afforded to combatants. What international law
demands, however, is that those engaged in combat take all feasible precautions to protect
civilians in the conduct of their hostilities. The Mission found no evidence that members of
Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat in civilian dress. It can, therefore, not find a
violation of the obligation not to endanger the civilian population in this respect.

Disregard the obvious contradiction in that paragraph - we both know Hamas did not take all feasible precautions....and there definitely is evidence showing they deliberately engaged in combat wearing civilian attire. Think about what you're saying....if it's okay for Hamas to deliberately toss their military fatigues and blend with civilians, why wouldn't Goldstone just say that? Why deny they do it?

Geneva protocol I article 37 paragraph 1:

1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy: (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender; (b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness; (c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and (d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.

Smell anything fishy yet?

:)

[varelse]

164. I do - but it's not the Goldstone report, HRW, or AI that stinks

It's your equating an outrageous and clearly ridiculous internet-based slander with legitimate criticism of the occupying forces in Palestine. That, and trying to back your claim by discrediting three of the many organizations and individual witnesses to have made that criticism.

It's not adding up for me. I stand by my original statement that criticism of policy and actions of the occupying forces does not equal demonization of the country or its citizens.

[shira]

165. fascinating

Legitimate criticism of HRW, AI, and Goldstone is now slander? What is slanderous about citing MSM articles which clearly refute HR groups' false statements about there being "no evidence..."?

What's slanderous about quoting an HRW representative whose views about Palestinian human-shielding were censored?

Hamas is deliberately shielding themselves (a big war crime that endangers innocent Palestinian civilians) and you're okay with that?

[varelse]

166. It's hard to say how many fighters were actually Hamas

and how many were civilians fighting independantly alongside of their army.

I know that if another nation were ever to invade and occupy the U.S., I would fight them with or without a uniform, until either I was dead, or they were expelled.

[shira]

167. the libel by HR groups against Israel is that Israel deliberately targets civilians

If HR groups were to admit that Hamas deliberately shields themselves within civilian areas, mixing with civilians, using mosques, hospitals, ambulances, tunnels under civilian houses, etc... that would shift most of the blame for civilian casualties onto Hamas - where it belongs. The point is to demonize Israel, however, so they keep the focus on Israel and claim lack of evidence of Hamas war crimes. That should be clear to you by now.

What you are proposing during a time of war is different than what Hamas does. If you were to fight alongside combatants, you would be classified as a combatant - not a civilian. And if you were to deliberately choose to fight from among innocent civilians and therefore put their lives in danger, you would be a war criminal and you would be responsible for any harm that would come to them.

I give you more credit than Hamas as I don't believe you'd ever do anything that evil. The problem is, Hamas does it and it appears you're okay with that and don't mind that HR groups intentionally turn the other way, ignore it, and therefore encourage Hamas to keep doing it.

===========

As for Hamas fighters vs. civilians, there's this - lemme know what you think:

"There are different accounts of the numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza, and of the ratio between civilian and militant deaths. B’Tselem, the reliable Israeli human rights organization, carefully examined names and lists of people who were killed and came up with the following ratio: Out of the 1,387 people killed in Gaza, for every militant that was killed, three civilians were killed. This ratio--1:3--holds if you include the police force among the civilians; but if you consider the police force as combatants, the ratio comes out to 2:3. There are 1.5 million people in Gaza and around 10,000 Hamas militants, so the ratio of militants to civilians is 1:150. If Israel targeted civilians intentionally, how on earth did it reduce such a ratio to 1:3 or 2:3?

http://www.tnr.com/article/world/the-goldstone-illusion?page=0,0

[varelse]

168. I'm assuming the civilians are able to move away from the "hot" areas if they wish

but you're right - they probably had nowhere to go. Which is why the IDF was accused both from outside its ranks and also by several of its own soldiers, of indiscriminately or even deliberately targeting civilians and their homes, offices, and public buildings. With missiles and tanks, in some cases.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

81. I'd be interested to see some proof of your claim other than "nuh uh."

Interesting though, that one googles this, the pro-zios are all over this like flies on poo.

When were the talking points issued?

[shira]

85. i provided sources other than CAMERA above in earlier posts

Like Ben White's "Democracy Shattered" post, which you brought to DU, that was nothing but a poor demonization attempt - the claims about Israel denying Palestinians water are also demonization.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. CAMERA isn't a source I'd read for info about the water situation.

self-delete.

[shira]

21. then here are more links that confirm the findings from CAMERA

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256557968809&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2009/Press+releases/Response_Amnesty_International_Israeli-Palestinian_water_27-Oct-2009.htm

At the bottom of the 2nd link, you'll find a thorough report from the Israel Water Authority.

Tell me, what do you call it when an organization reports blatantly false and inflammatory material about the PA, Hamas, Lebanon, etc..?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

83. MFA? Hasbara Central? LOL!!! that's rich, even for you, Shira!

[shira]

86. at the bottom of the MFA link is a thorough report from the Water Authority that debunks the BS

Btselem uses the Water Authority as a source, and as far as I know no one has ever claimed the Water Authority lacks credibility or needs an overhaul.

[pelsar]

25. i thought i explained it to you....israel has a direct relationship to world wide anti semitism....

much of its population has direct roots to it...and israel establishment, is a DIRECT result of it.....a safe haven if you will.

ignoring israeli history, etc is really not a very good idea to getting the I/P problem solved....true, its makes it easier to believe in "fairy tales" if you do, but it doesnt work very well in reality.....



if your truly believe this:
Are you suggesting that eastern European anti-semitism is rooted in the I/P conflict?

History certainly shows otherwise.

then i'm afraid you really don't understand much of the conflict....it may not be your version of history...but it is ours.....

so you have an interesting choice: to understand you enemy, understand what they believe and accept that as part of their motivations for what they do...or close your eyes, cover your ears and sing la la la...and pretend your version of israels and israeli motivation is what you believe it should be..not what israelis believe.

interesting choice....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

72. Pelsar my point is that Eastern Europeans hated Jews long before the first Zionist set foot in

Palestine. Palestinians are required for Europeans to hate Jews. They have their own special history of such behavior.

[pelsar]

73. and the hate goes on.....

the anti Semites of europe are far more insidious than any hatred from the Palestinians...The Palestinians have a direct cause and affect....and there is a certain honesty when they talk about jews (when talking about israelis). They at least can look around and see what the jews have done to them..the european anti semites probably don't even know any jews.....

hence the zionist movement, zionism was a result of anti semitism, it didn't bring it on.....you can complain about why they picked Palestine, as the place to go, but that was a wise choice for the zionists given the wide dispersal of the jews and the thread that bound them together...Judaism and its history.

you can say why should the Palestinians have to pay for Europe's anti semitism..and i would counter with why do you think the Palestinians are so special that they shouldn't also pay for the sins of hitler as so many had?...post WWII there was massive population movement, border changes etc and the vast majority were victims, who were just living in the wrong place and the wrong time.....The Palestinians in Palestine were simply one of many....sad for all, but the situation was not a "win win" for everyone, it was more of a pick up the pieces and make the best out of it.....they too got the fall out from hitler.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

74. My question for you would be:

why did you guys let the Europeans off so lightly?

And I find your perspective that no one should get off scott-free interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that. But it surely seems as though Europe didn't pay much of a price for their own sins.

[pelsar]

75. and this is really where are perspectives differ.....

it wasn't a matter of "making them pay"....it was a matter of what is best for the jews, given the real limitations....the old saying of "making lemon juice out of lemons" was the attitude.....(no one in europe was going to give up parts of their country for the jews, so why fight it?).

and.....the powerful dont really pay for their sins.....thats a harsh reality but it is reality


Germany did send money.....which probably saved israel, financially, with its reparations payments. I don't know the exact amount but for a fledging state, that cash flow was pretty essential.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

76. I'm not talking about vengeance... I'm talking about stopping the cycle of hatred

There was no reckoning for the horrible actions that grew out of unthinkable bigotry. That's why anti-semitic bigots in the Ukraine can carry on like this.

There was never any reckoning forced. No European nation was forced to examine itself and its attitudes and beliefs. The Roman Catholic church was never called to account for its role in what happened.

It boggles my mind this critical piece was missing from the post-war period.

[LeftishBrit]

77. I disagree that 'no Europaean nation was forced to examine itself and its attitudes and beliefs'

Germany was forced to do so in a big way, first by the 'denazification' programmes of the allies, and then by its own new leadership. To a somewhat lesser degree, so were Austria, and some other 'collaborator' countries.

The countries of Eastern Europe did not on the whole undergo the same process, which may be one reason why antisemitism nowadays tends to be more blatant in some of these countries than in modern Germany. The same seems to have been true of Italy, which again may be one reason why borderline-fascist politics appears to be more accepted from time to time (like right now) there than in some other countries. Of course, that is just one of many factors that may be involved in complicated political-cultural differences within the large region of Europe. In any case, I would certainly disagree with your statement at least as applies to Germany.

[shira]

79. you've hit upon a truth....no one really pays for antisemitic bigotry and these bigots know they can

keep doing it, get away with it, and not have to pay any big price for it.

It's always been this way and still is. Bigoted antisemites are cowards because they know there's no real price to pay for their hatred.

[pelsar]

89. here i'm more pessimistic....

the concept of "were better" than the other, our team etc, seems pretty ingrained in our nature. From that point, to needing someone/group to hate doesn't seem to be much of a leap. Anti Semitism seems to be a "general" other group kind of thing...got a problem, need someone to blame?...go for the jews.

its been ingrained for what, 1000 of years?....So its not so easy to remove, and i would doubt if many even want to bother with it...so it stays and simmers and comes up so often for a variety of reasons, depending upon who/where you are:

politics in the Ukraine blame the jews
frustrated muslim youth in france-attack some jews
The US getting attacked-blame the jews

etc etc etc

Whereas germany really went too far with the industrial genocide for the rest of europe, its just a natural part of their culture and i actually believe its pretty deep.......cultures dont change unless there is reason to do so..there is/was no one to put any pressure on the elites of europe to do any sort of reckoning....there was just the US and i believe they tried to a certain degree but it was hardly high up on their "to do" list.

and of course the creation of israel resolved them of their guilt....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

92. ... and of course...

it surely benefitted the Zionist leaderhip in the '40s' to focus on nation building rather than on solving the "problem" of anti-semitism.

But I wonder how well that strategy has served Jewish people around the world?

[shira]

95. how could they just "solve" antisemitism? If they had focused on that instead of nationbuilding...

they'd be nowhere close to "solving" it 60 years later, and with no nation.

Just eternal victims.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

107. ... continuing the cycle....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

109. Pelsar would be the first to argue that there has been tremendous progress made by human beings

in the area of civil rights. The same tactics that were employed to bring about change regarding minorities and gay people in the US could be employed.

Do you imagine that anti-semitism is the only form of human hatred that can't be changed?

[pelsar]

120. i would go back to pragmatism.....

anti-Semitism is real and ingrained and its going to take a lot more than a few jews marching or protesting to remove it. The Civil Rights Movement did wonders....and yet racism still exists in the US in various forms...same goes for Europe amongst its many minorities and immigrants and we're way beyond the 1940's.

The jews didn't/don't have the power required to remove anti-Semitism, and they were tired of being the victim....wasn't a few thousand years enough of that shit?

zionism was the direct result of that......... living in a country(s) while just waiting for the next anti-Semitic attack/decree/blood libel can get rather tiring after a time, especially if its govt directed (be it passive or active).

funny thing about anti-Semitism..i think its unique in its ability to cross all political, national, racial lines, generation after generation.......it perhaps can be removed, but it will take a far more intense effort from a bunch of jews.....

and the zionist were practical above all. (read about the Altalena)

and to bring this back to the I/P conflict....i believe the Palestinians are taking "your route" as opposed to the more practical 'zionist " attitude. Rather than "take" what they can get at this point, no matter how painful (as per the zionists of the 40's), they are busy trying to solve the larger spiritual problem of getting what they "deserve." including all that is holy.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

123. I think you must admit the Palestinians today face a much tougher, intransigent opponent than the

Zionists of the '40's faced.

It's much easier to agree to a partition deal that GAINS you huge swaths of land, even if it's not the whole of ancient Israel.

No one is serious in Israel right now about anything, so really Pelsar, what are you suggesting? Palestinians grab "economic peace" because the unemployment rate might decrease a little?

I think Palestinians should be practical too. But I also think the current leadership is bankrupt. Time to go back to the drawing board, unify and negotiate from that position.

In any case, Israel will have its hands facing civil war with the settlers. No deals will be made anytime sooN!

[pelsar]

159. the emotions involved and history is now far more intense than the 40's

in the 40's pre and post it was definitely simpler with the arabs having a "lesser' role. Whereas time is not on either Israelis side (the settlers and friends are dangerous internal element), its far worse for the Palestinians.

both of us can only do so much because of internal politics, but an israeli internal civil war between the settlers and others may be fun to watch for the Palestinians but in the long run, its not good for the Palestinians.....same holds true as we watch hamas and the PA duke it out.

(israel has in its history already put down its extreme elements in the 40's....and gaza really showed the settlers who owns israel, not to mention the army is now threatening to defund those extremist religious learning schools.....so your not going to get your civil war anyway).

i think the Palestinians are screwed.....the PA is corrupt, hamas are fanatics.....that status quo means the settlers continue their game of cat and mouse. The armys only concern is how they affect the security....(.they antagonize too much, it "costs the army." so they have to limit that)..... the rest of us don't really trust the PA to control their various subgroups nor do we see the PA as stable, a hamas take over, as in gaza, is not a some imaginative scenario. Presently its the IDF and PA working together that keeps that from happening.

Where does that leave you?......not in a good position thats for sure. Continuing fighting hasn't been good for the Palestinians ...isn't that obvious by now? Your faced with no good options..but that is the nature of the conflict, you have to choose the option that is lesser of the bad options.

be realistic....declare a two step process,
take whats left of the westbank, declare the war over, no right of return, all armed groups outlawed, their bank accounts confiscated, new elections, open schools, forget the settlements, settlers, even E. jersualem for the time being....establish a working democratic society...oh yea and tell your supporters be they arab govt etc to find some other group to support (i.e. go to sudan)

phase two, landswaps, e. jerusalem etc once confidence is established.

yes it means total capitulation (just as the jews did in 48 to the UN), accept what you can get now.....swallow your pride and start planning a future....i write this not out of a "win/lose situation..but more of a practical way to solve this....time is against us, but against the Palestinians far more than the israelis...

[cali]

110. this is a fundamentallty flawed concept in so many ways

What precisely should the "Zionist leadership" have done in the 40s? What part of the 40s are you even referring to.

And suggesting that you do that anti-semitism today is because of the existence of Israel is simply absurd in the face of history.

[Violet_Crumble]

135. Why aren'[t you asking pelsar? He's the one who was talking about the 1940's leadership...

Did you read the sub-thread or only read the post you were replying to? It's just that I fail to see why you'd be asking PM to explain that if you'd read the post she was replying to where it was brought up in the first place...

[cali]

111. whoa. are you truly that ignorant of history?

that's a ridiculous and completely ignorant claim. It boggles my mind that you're that ignorant.

[Violet_Crumble]

134. Want to be a bit more specific and a bit less abusive?

What exactly are you objecting to and why?

[Shadrach]

24. I heard there is the same fear about the US

But I think it was a Central American country that at some point halted adoptions to the US because of similar claims. But yes, anti-Semitism seems to be making a come back in Europe. That's pretty scary.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Antisemitism's never fallen out of fashion in parts of Eastern Europe...

This isn't indicative of Western Europe at all, but in countries like the Ukraine, antisemitism isn't making a comeback as it's always been there...

[Shadrach]

33. Sure, I know many Ukranian Jews and Jews in the former Soviet Union...

...who moved this way 15 to 20 years ago because of discrimination. But the word is that it is getting worse.

[Mosby]

59. A Ukrainian University’s Anti-Semitic Crusade

snip

MAUP’s campaign would not have been possible without what Per Rudling calls a deep-seated social acceptance of anti-Semitism in Ukraine. In September, he attended a conference during which a leader of a government agency, the Ukrainian Institute of National Memory, who is also a former deputy prime minister, equated Holocaust victims with perpetrators. “He stood up and said, ‘The Jewish scum were no different from Ukrainian collaborators.’” Rudling was shocked not just by the comment but by the lack of reaction on the part of Ukrainians in the audience. “In the West, there is an awareness that doesn’t exist in Ukraine. There, everyone just sits and listens as if this kind of talk were normal.”

Ukrainians have a tendency to conveniently mention the Jewish ancestry of others. Several times while in Ukraine, I heard innuendo that Prime Minister Tymoshenko was one-quarter or one-eighth Jewish on her mother’s side, although she denies it. “This is gossip used by people who don’t like her,” says Frenkel. More recently, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a former parliament speaker and potential presidential candidate, has been accused of having Jewish roots. He also denies it, despite the fact that being Jewish today is no longer a political liability. “There’s a lot of anti-Semitic talk in Ukraine,” says Zissels, “but it doesn’t affect the composition of the parliament. You have to understand that we have a large degree of freedom of the press but there is no concept of political correctness in our society.”

Mikhail Frenkel is less sanguine. Ukraine, he warns, has entered yet another period of instability. The country was hit hard by the economic recession and corruption is rampant: On a scale of corruption, Ukraine is a low-ranked 134th out of 180 nations surveyed by Berlin-based Transparency International. In addition, presidential elections are scheduled for 2010. All this worries Frenkel. “Anti-Semitism always increases in periods of instability,” he says.

http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2009/2009-12/200912-MAUP.html

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

61. IfAmericansKnew is not a reliable site (nt)

ETA: And in the case of this particular article, that's putting it mildly! It reminds me of the Birther sites.

[shira]

63. it's a hate site

:shrug:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

70. Harsh criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitic - if it's fair

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/point/entry/harsh_criticism_isn_t_anti