Shattering Israel's image of 'democracy'

[ProgressiveMuslim]

In the Negev, an area targeted for so-called 'development', lies the Israel that its government does not want to be seen



A struggle over land, home demolitions, and an Israeli government working with Jewish agencies to "develop" the land for the benefit of one group at the expense of another. It could be a picture of the illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, but in fact, it's inside Israel – in the Negev.

The Negev, or al-Naqab in Arabic, is an area that since the inception of the state has been targeted by Israeli governments, along with agencies like the Jewish National Fund (JNF), for so-called "development".

This investment in the country's periphery is characterised by systematic discrimination against the Negev's Bedouin population, many of whom live in "unrecognised" villages or townships. Recent developments bring these policies into sharper focus, as well as pointing to fundamental problems with Israel's image as "the Middle East's only democracy".

First, three vital clinics serving Bedouin women and children have been shut down, with the result that the nearest equivalent facilities are now hours away. The official reason is a shortage of staff, but this does not sit well with the severity of the health problem among these Bedouin children, where the infant mortality rate is more than three times higher than in the Israeli Jewish community.

Second, in mid-November the Knesset passed an amendment to prevent around 25,000 Bedouins from voting for their mayor and regional councillors. Elections had already been postponed for two years, but now the law means "that as long as the minister of interior deems the residents not ready for elections, the elections will be postponed".

Finally, six weeks ago, lawyers acting on behalf of the Bedouins who live in the unrecognised village of Umm al-Hieran appealed against a previous court decision ordering the eviction of the community's residents.

Ironically, this village had been established by the Israeli military in the 1950s as part of a wider-scale forced relocation of Bedouins from territory intended for Jewish settlement. Now they are once again being targeted for removal, labelled "intruders", to make way for the planned creation of a Jewish town, Hiran....

read on...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/03/israel-negev

[jasi2006]

1. Sorry. Truth about Israel is not tolerated at DU.

At least that has been my experience over the years.

[aquart]

4. Truth?

Why the truth is Israelis are monsters and Palestinians long-suffering saints. I thought everyone knew that.

[shira]

2. ahh...the same Ben White who understands antisemitism by providing alibis for racists!

Imagine Ben White explaining how he understands racism against blacks or Arabs by providing alibis for racists as he does here...

I do not consider myself an anti-Semite, yet I can also understand why some are. There are, in fact, a number of reasons. One is the state of Israel, its ideology of racial supremacy and its subsequent crimes committed against the Palestinians. It is because Zionists have always sought to equate their colonial project with Judaism that some misguidedly respond to what they see on their televisions with attacks on Jews or Jewish property.

Secondly, and related to the first point, is the widespread bias and subservience to the Israeli cause in the Western media…

I have just provided a by no means comprehensive list of reasons why “I can understand very well that some people are unpleasant towards Jews.” I do not agree with them, but I can understand.

Oh yeah, and for a demolition of this latest hate screed by White in the OP, see here...

The Tooth Fairy Visits Qasr al Ser
http://cifwatch.com/2009/12/04/the-tooth-fairy-visits-qasr-al-ser/

Just more of the same hateful demonization from Ben White. Facts either don't matter or certain information is witheld intentionally to cast Israel in the darkest light imaginable. Haters eat it up. Nothing new. It's just a matter of time before Ben White is contacted by Stormfront as their expert correspondant on I/P affairs.

[LeftishBrit]

13. Disgusting...

but as regards your other comment:

'Imagine Ben White explaining how he understands racism against blacks or Arabs by providing alibis for racists as he does here...'

It doesn't take a lot of imagining. Ben White probably hasn't done it himself; but our tabloid writers do the equivalent regularly.

[shira]

15. it's worse than you're portraying it - John Dugard wrote the forward to his Israel=Apartheid screed

...and Desmond Tutu endorsed White's latest hate propaganda.

Your British tabloid writers and our American POS haters don't get those kinds of endorsements for their hate garbage.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Whatever 'endorsements' they may or may not get...

they influence a far larger proportion of the people, and the politicians are thereby influenced in the direction of appeasing xenophobia and bigotry. Thus the tabloids and talkshows are the ones with the real *power*

Circulation of 'The Sun': 7,900,000

Circulation of 'Daily Mail': 2,180,000

Circulation of 'The Guardian': 360,000 (Many of whom read it for its news sections and don't even bother with CiF)

[shira]

23. you think Ben White and his anti-Israel pals have less influence than far RW haters of Arabs?

[LeftishBrit]

25. Yes. Undoubtedly (though it tends to be 'far RW haters of Muslims' rather than Arabs specifically)

There are certainly some groups (e.g. the Saudi oil lobby, or the Arab bloc in the UN) that have a big anti-Israel influence; but the real influence of people like *Ben White*, except in very small navel-contemplating journalistic circles, is very small.

The evidence is all around us:

The War on Terror, and all its repercussions that affect everyone's civil liberties.

The Iraq War and the associated war in Afghanistan and threats of war in Iran.

The virulent prejudice against Muslim immigrants and their descendants in many Europaean and other countries, and its regular justification in the popular media in terms of their being supposed actual and potential terrorists. (Yes, there is antisemitism too, and in some places it's a *big* problem. But I do not think that the worst antisemites, or the most affected countries such as some in Eastern Europe, are much influenced by the likes of Ben White. They have other influences -often including some of the same ones that produce the Islamophobia.)

[shira]

26. but the Ben White fakers speak "for peace" and "human rights" while crying crocodile tears

I'd say that when the peace and HR movements are hijacked by the Ben White fakers, and you know how infuriating that is to me, that's actually more damaging to the prospects of real peace and HR with regard to the Arab-Israel conflict than anything the warmongering RW is capable of. I include Goldstone along with Tutu, Dugard, and White - and I know you disagree - but I cannot seriously think of any good reason to distinguish Goldstone, Dugard, and Tutu from White, apart from the fact White is just a bit more reckless and careless with his language. They all promote inflammatory, false, and hostile propaganda that works against the cause of peace and HR (especially for the Palestinians they pretend to speak on behalf of).

Can't we just toss both extreme ends off the planet and start over?

:)

[LeftishBrit]

29. I certainly disagree VERY strongly about Tutu...

As regards White, I think he is an unimportant individual who probably has a highly inflated idea of his own importance, which we don't need to encourage.

'that's actually more damaging to the prospects of real peace and HR with regard to the Arab-Israel conflict than anything the warmongering RW is capable of.'

I disagree quite intensely; I think that the warmongering RW has already done indescribable damage to the Middle East, directly or indirectly murdered thousands of people, and has also, by creating a vaccuum, increased violence in the region, and in particular increased the influence of the Muslim Right, which inevitably affects the I/P conflict among much else. As far as I am concerned, the RW in all its very varied forms (which include anti-American as well as pro-American forms) is the ultimate enemy of all that is good in the world.

As regards the Goldstone report: my view, which will probably arouse lots of disagreement on all sides, is that it is a bit of a waste of time in the circumstances, and will simply make very little difference in any way. The Israelis and strong pro-Israel supporters will dismiss it; Hamas will ignore the criticisms of themselves and support the criticisms of Israel; and the rest of the world will just continue to hold the same views that they always did, for or against Israel.

[azurnoir]

30. Can you actually refute what the article says about

the plight of the Bedouins in this village is that untrue or can you only smear the author as an attempt at distraction from that, from what I have read on this thread there has been an attempt by you and another poster to redirect away from from that subject

[shira]

31. i provided a demolition of this article in a link within post #2, the one you just responded to

In addition, you'll find in Ben White's comments section the following by PetraMB:

PETRAMB wrote:
Ben, you seem to have a big problem with Israel and the simple fact that the Negev is Israeli territory. Since Israel is a rather small country, it has always been clear that the Negev would have to be developed. All your comments on this are outright poisonous, and it seems you think that the Negev should be left for Bedouins to roam freely so that they could cling to their traditional Nomadic life style ? which of course would then be a reason to complain about their poverty and backwardness. Just a generation ago, more than 90 percent of the Bedouin population was illiterate; polygamy still persists to this day, and some of the poverty is due to the fact that Bedouin have a large number of children, even though, given the low educational standards, many families live largely on welfare payments. You complain about high child mortality, but don’t mention that some of it is due to illnesses that come from intermarriage in families:

http://www.aabgu.org/media-center/news-releases/genetic-cause-of-bedouin-disease.html

It’s clearly first and foremost the Bedouin themselves who need development, and at least in terms of improving literacy rates and education, there has been quite a bit of progress in the past 2 decades, though in general, the situation of girls is still deplorable. The problem of the unrecognized villages and the underlying land disputes go back to the mid-19th century, when Bedouins refused to register their land claims because they didn’t want to pay taxes. Since then, they have continued to regard certain areas as their traditional communal grazing grounds, or as clan property. Some of these claims have been solved, and there are some very fancy Bedouin neighborhoods with one extravagant villa next to another more extravagant villa. So the image of Bedouins just living in miserable villages isn’t entirely true; similarly, while there are doubtlessly Bedouins who would welcome your attempt to highlight tensions and alienation, there are also Bedouin who serve in the army:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8303634.stm

There are also notable Bedouin success stories, including Bedouins who made a career as Israeli diplomats:

http://www.israel21c.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=718%3ASF’s+newest+consul+enjoys+being+Bedouin%2C+proud+to+be+Israeli&Itemid=110

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3768196,00.html

or the first Bedouin woman who graduated from medical school in Israel:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3263065,00.html

However, it will still take at least a generation before the majority of Israel’s Bedouin population will really be able to catch up with the modern world and that will not be an easy process for this deeply conservative, traditional, and rigidly patriarchal group, but it’s inevitable. No reason to rant against development — there has to be development, and only few of the Bedouins will be able to make a living by keeping goat or sheep. Most of them will have to try to get an education that will enable them to earn their living in a 21st century economy, and they will have to live in 21st century housing and, like we all do, pay taxes to fund 21st century services.

I'm sorry that it's now not enough to show that Ben White is a total antisemite, and that despite the POS he is, some here will still believe nonetheless that scum like White are still committed to honesty and accuracy in their writings.

[azurnoir]

32. Are we to then assume that the clinics mentioned are still open?

are there in reality no orders to demolish the village?

[shira]

33. what did you think about White's false information and attempt to smear Israel

it's hard for me to get past the demonization before getting to the reality. that's just me, i guess. if there's a problem, why not just report it as is, minus the demonization and OTT smear attempts? let the facts speak for themselves?

:shrug:

you don't have a problem with the demonization and false or omitted facts?

[azurnoir]

41. So are the clinics still open or were they closed as a part of

so called "resource planning" LOL Shira you can very little here except smear the messenger and try to explain away the serial demolition of non-Jewish villages in Israel and the OPT to make way for more Jewish communities tell us will the new Jewish township allow nonJewish residents and do you think it have a child and maternal health clinic, will resource planning think it a wise move?

[shira]

42. as I thought - any trumped up charge demonizing Israel is okay with you if it has some element of

...truth to it. You ignore any source that demonizes Arabs, Muslims, or any other minority - but with Israel you have a different standard - and in fact, unless proven innocent Israel is always assumed guilty of the worst intentions and actions.

Got it.

As for the article...

1. Ben White claims that due to the closing of clinics, Bedouins would have to travel for hours to another clinic. Did you notice the map included in that "Tooth Fairy" response to White's article? From one Bedouin village to Dimona is a distance of about 3 whole miles. From which Bedouin village does it take hours to reach any bigger Israeli township with adequate health care? Israel's a pretty tiny country. You should consult a map.

2. The closed clinics also affected Jews, not just Bedouins. If you read the critiques I provided, you'd see White quoted very selectively from one of the linked articles and doesn't include this. Wonder why? Since these closings effected small Jewish towns too, what does that say about "discrimination"?

3. White thinks that the Negev should be left vacant and undeveloped so Bedouins can roam freely in order to cling to their traditional Nomadic life style... which is nothing for him, of course, but a reason to later complain about their poverty and backwardness. Development bad....backwardness poverty good, well at least when Israel can be blamed. Damn if they do or don't push "development".

4. In the "Tooth Fairy" article, mention was made of very vocal and effective Israel advocacy groups standing up for Bedouin rights, which Ben White includes in his article. Think about that, and ask yourself if that's a sign of real democracy or not - the title of Ben White's piece. You see, Ben White undermines his own argument that Bedouins have no democratic rights.

5. The quote from PETRAMB shows many success stories for Bedouins in Israeli society - which also undermines White's main argument.


======================


Now why would any honest and credible journalist paint the situation in the worst possible colors against Israel in order to make a point? Can't he let the facts just speak for themselves and humbly make an argument for Bedouins without demonizing?

But then, you don't have a problem with demonization as long as it's aimed against Israel or Israel's supporters, right? Against anyone else, that's racism and bigotry - against Israel and its supporters - demonization is fine with you?

[azurnoir]

44. Whites article was about a Bedouin village being destroyed

but yet he wants the Negev left undeveloped so that Bedouins can maintain their traditional lifestyle? Was the village a group of tents that was constantly on the move, I ask because to the best of my knowledge a village consists of structures that are intended to be permanent.

As to Bedouins doing so very well in Israeli society yes did you know that America has a Black president so that just must mean that all Blacks in America are doing well and there is no more racial discrimination and any claims otherwise are nothing but "demonization" right?

The simple fact is that the core of the article true

[shira]

45. here's an article about Bedouin nomads FYI

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/2609041/Bedouin-nomads-under-threat-in-Holy-Land.html

You really don't have a problem with White's inflammatory article, do you?

Despite the fact that Ben White lies and omits information in order to paint Israel in the darkest colors imaginable, you think the ends justify the means - right?

[azurnoir]

46. This does nothing to refute the article

your constant defense of Israel's policies of demolition and "resettlement" policies quite telling of a certain mindset

Is everything in Whites article the truth that would depend on ones point of view but the basis the important facts are indeed the truth the fact that Israel is demolishing a Bedouin village to make way for a Jewish one is the truth and no amount of blather and obfuscation can change that, do you really think that this is defending Israel?

[shira]

47. it addressed your question about tents/shacks and the nomadic lifestyle

It's now obvious that any article demonizing Israel and filled with exaggerations and inflammatory rhetoric is fine with you so long as there's something truthful in it.

Pathetic.

I wonder where you draw the line....is 5% truth and 95% fiction and demonization okay for any article, or just those blasting Israel?

---------

So, is the RW film "Obsession" kinda true at the core - where no amount of babble will just explain it away?

---------

As for your earlier question...."tell us will the new Jewish township allow nonJewish residents and do you think it have a child and maternal health clinic, will resource planning think it a wise move?

You must really have a low opinion of Israel to ask this. Tell me, does Ben White make you believe nonJews cannot go to any Israeli health clinic and that pregnant mothers and their kids are not covered under Israel's universal health plan?

[azurnoir]

48. Is that the best you can do more obfuscation?

my comment about tents was in reference to the village in question and I did not ask if nonJews would be allowed to receive medical treatment in the new Jewish township I asked if they would be allowed to live in the township, that is what residence means

[shira]

49. oh, the village in question....

1. If you read the article provided, it would be silly for Bedouins to permanently reside somewhere in which things could turn for the worse for their livestock who need to graze. There's currently a drought going on in that region. If they stay in one place with a drought and no water, what will happen to their livestock? They're constantly on the move, or else they're no longer Bedouins and they should join modern society.

2. You're right, I read your question wrong but it's still a doozy. Can non-Jews live in Jewish villages? Hmmm. You must be joking. You realize they could sue for the stars if there was ever resistance to them living with Jews? You realize Arabs could live in WB settlements if they choose to? What made you ask such a question - is it because of articles from Ben White that you believe it's not possible for non-Jews to live with Jews in Israel?

3. Now let's see who is obfuscating, shall we? The film "Obsession"....is it basically true and are the protestations to it weak in order to explain the situation away? Is it as basically true as Ben White's article? Are my protestations to White's article as weak in explaining away the situation as anyone's WRT "Obsession"? Let's see who is obfuscating, okay?

[azurnoir]

50. A bit foamy there?

you simply can not refute the facts in the article, can you? So you continue to attempt to obfuscate, as for Obsession I can not answer your question I have never seen it and have no real desire to. but apparently your quite familiar with it. I've read it was a favorite to mail out during the last Presidential campaign.

[shira]

51. Ben White's article was refuted in post #2 along with PetraMB's remarks

Remember one of the lies about traveling hours from a Bedouin village to another town with health facilities?

Or how about the lie in which Bedouins are being targeted while Jewish people are also affected by the closure of small town health clinics?

What's a lie or an exaggeration here or there when the target is Israel, right? It's 'somewhat' truthful, right? Who cares about the demonization?

You're no different from the participants over at JihadWatch or StormFront who get their daily fixes of lies and exaggerations and challenge others to 'refute the facts'. Well, actually I take that back....you know the swill they read is crap, no matter what is true within - you're just hypocritical.

[azurnoir]

52. No it was not

the basic facts of the article are true as you just admitted in your own post

the health clinic was closed, however the fact that some of its patient Jews does not make it better
the village is being demolished to make way for a Jewish township

apparently your point of view depends on one not being capable of critical thinking, alas some of us are
the main problem I have with the article would be its title Israel is a democracy, one man one vote and it even allows parties especially for its minorities

eta it has to be noticed that while there is much blather here about "demonization" it is those doing the accusing that are also doing the name calling, interesting

[shira]

53. yes, it was

The title of the article is refuted by the fact that Bedouins have such vocal advocacy groups fighting for their rights within Israel. The fact of the matter is that since Bedouins are Israeli citizens, they have due process like anyone else and can see to it that their rights are protected.

So with that in mind, how is 'democracy shattered' in Israel?

The fact is that many points throughout the article are lies and exaggerations. And that makes no difference to your 'liberal sensitivies'. The whole point to the lies and exaggerations is to paint Israel in the darkest colors imaginable - in order to incite against Israel (Jews). That's demonization.

As for villages demolished, where's proof that the basis for such decisions is to 'get those Bedouins' and trample on their rights?

=========

What's pathetic is that you recognize demonization if the targets of lies and exaggerations are minorities other than Jews, like Arabs or Blacks. Why is it that you're so blind to demonization against Jews? WTF?

[azurnoir]

54. perhaps you should reread my post

as I addressed the articles title

[shira]

55. so let's get this straight....Ben White says Bedouins are being taken advantage of and can't do

anything about it, therefore you believe he proved this main point in the article?

White claims Israeli Democracy is shattered, but you agree that's not happening - right?

So the MAIN point of Ben White's article - which you believe he proved - is what exactly?

[azurnoir]

57. Nice trick answering the wrong comment

however the main point IMO was that Israel is demolishing a Bedouin village to replace it with a Jewish one, the rest is detail and minutia
as to the title articles have attention grabbing titles all of time, sometimes the publisher even changes the title after publication Haaretz is good for that, really it is not that big a deal to me

[shira]

59. wrong comment? WTF? I thought the main point of the article was to show how nasty Israel is to

...the Bedouins.

Ben White went out of his way to show how discriminatory, unfair, and bigoted Israel was being to Bedouins - by replacing their village with a new Jewish one - as if the Bedouins are being taken advantage of, can do nothing about it, and are at the mercy of 'zionist imperialists' out to get them.

But you didn't get that from his article?

Moreover, he proved his point.....how? How is Israel bad and nasty in this latest screed of his? What kind of nastiness is the Israeli govt up to in Ben's article?

This?
http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Archive/Speeches/2008/12/speechbasma091208.htm

Or this?
http://www.pm.gov.il/PMOEng/Archive/Press+Releases/2005/07/spokmes180705.htm
http://israel-scitech-schools.org/ctPage.aspx/Schools_in_Action/Abu-Basma

The purpose of Ben's article was....what now? Can't hear you!

:)

[azurnoir]

60. LOL that Israel is demolishing

Bedouin village to make way for a Jewish one, Shira not one thing even an old speech from such an esteemed and honored former Israeli PM such as Olmert changes that

however I have made my point here and I do not think it is necessary to continue, write what you want you do not even have a grasp of what my "mission" if you will ultimately seemed to become call it showing of the "obsession" of someone other than myself

[shira]

61. but Ben White went further and he believes he presented an Israel that doesn't want to be seen

Check out the last paragraph of his article. The myth of Israel's democracy...

In the comments section, he refers to Israel's "democracy" (scare quotes included) and states that he believes he proved how discriminatory and unfair Israel is to the Bedouin, in its attempt to "Judaize" the land.

So you agree that Ben White tried to demonize Israel but that he ultimately failed to provide any proof of Israel wrongdoing.

All he accomplished, in your opinion, was to show that Israel is demolishing a Bedouoin village to make way for a Jewish one.

Try as he did with his lies and exaggerations, he failed to prove the main point of his article, right? That main point is in the last paragraph of his article. You should read it. It's to demonize Israel - try to prove Israel is up to no good with the Bedouin, etc.

[shaayecanaan]

63. Lovely sentiments there...

All your comments on this are outright poisonous, and it seems you think that the Negev should be left for Bedouins to roam freely so that they could cling to their traditional Nomadic life style ? which of course would then be a reason to complain about their poverty and backwardness. Just a generation ago, more than 90 percent of the Bedouin population was illiterate; polygamy still persists to this day, and some of the poverty is due to the fact that Bedouin have a large number of children, even though, given the low educational standards, many families live largely on welfare payments. You complain about high child mortality, but don’t mention that some of it is due to illnesses that come from intermarriage in families

Im trying to find a word that wouldnt look out of place in a far-right wing diatribe against Aborigines in Australia, for example. The old jibes about too many children (I wonder how many children Israelis think Arabs should have), welfare payments, backward, mistreating their women and children - its all there so far...

All quite progressive, Im sure...

[shira]

65. yeah, it's more "progressive" to do and say nothing about the situation

Israel has its own backwards ultra-religious without jobs or education, intermarrying with many children....

That's nothing to be proud of either.

[oberliner]

66. Overpopulation ought to be a major progressive issue

The Haredim are actually probably the worst in this regard. They also share some of the same issues with respect to mistreatment of women and children as has been noted in other threads.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. How does that justify the bigotry and discrimination of that comment?

This is the comment I think is revolting and which you appear to be agreeing with: 'All your comments on this are outright poisonous, and it seems you think that the Negev should be left for Bedouins to roam freely so that they could cling to their traditional Nomadic life style ? which of course would then be a reason to complain about their poverty and backwardness. Just a generation ago, more than 90 percent of the Bedouin population was illiterate; polygamy still persists to this day, and some of the poverty is due to the fact that Bedouin have a large number of children, even though, given the low educational standards, many families live largely on welfare payments. You complain about high child mortality, but don’t mention that some of it is due to illnesses that come from intermarriage in families.'

As Shay pointed out, try talking like that about indigenous Australians instead of the Bedouin and see how many microseconds it takes for you to realise that what you'd be saying is extremely RW and racist. If it's not acceptable when it comes to indigenous Australians, why is it that you appear to be finding it acceptable when it comes to the Bedouin?

[stray cat]

3. Compared to our perfect democracy?

or some other countries perfect democracy? One could argue real democracy is letting people build where they want to. Regardless, where in the middle east would you prefer their government and living there.

[safeinOhio]

6. I'd love to see real democracy in Israel

One person, one vote, no matter your religion. I'd also like to see the secular liberal Jews stand up to the crazy settlers and fundies on the right. Until then I see world support sliding for all of Israel.

[shira]

7. it's already one person, one vote no matter the religion in Israel.

[safeinOhio]

11. I'm glad you don't consider Palistine part of Israel.

Now we are getting some where.

[Shaktimaan]

56. Well, of course not.

The Palestinians get to vote also, just not for Israeli politicians. They vote for their own.

[Behind the Aegis]

58. Yet, you seemingly do.

Or is it you see Israel as part of Palestine? :shrug:

[imdjh]

5. It breaks my heart to see the UK committing suicide.

[shira]

9. it's pretty sick that the Guardian's CiF allows some POS like Ben White to post his hate there

[LeftishBrit]

16. I don't defend Ben White...

but it's also pretty sick that the much-wider-circulation tabloids allow some POS types like Melanie Phillips, Richard Littlejohn, Amanda Platell, Jan Moir, Peter Hitchens, etc. to post *their* various brands of hate on a very regular basis.

It's pretty sick that American media gives a strong hearing to so many people on the Far Right, most notably Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, to spew their hate all over the place.

'Allow' is really the wrong word here, as people *should* be allowed to post essentially whatever they wish, since the alternative is totalitarian suppression of free speech. What is really sick is that in so many cases, *hate is made profitable*. The passionate xenophobe, whether ferociously attacking Israel, America, the EU, Iran or Iraq abroad, or Jews, Muslims or 'immigrants' at home - or those who are 'different' in other ways such as gays or single mothers or those with disabilities - tends to make more of a profit than the writer who sends a message of peace and tolerance.

[shira]

17. see #15, those nitwits you mention aren't being crowned as heros of the left by big figures

like John Dugard and Desmond Tutu.

Big difference.

At least the bozos you mentioned are being marginalized to a great degree by civil society - the same can't be said of a turd like Ben White whose star is only rising among the anti-Israel left.

[LeftishBrit]

19. No but they are being crowned as heroes of the right and supposed centre

'At least the bozos you mentioned are being marginalized to a great degree by civil society'

You are joking, are you???

I WISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are probably going to hand Britain to the Tories on a silver platter next year, and you think they're 'marginalized'??????????????

Unless you consider that all on the right of centre are by definition not 'civil society', nothing could be further from the truth. How many people have read Ben White compared with how many have read Melanie Phillips? Hell, *I*'ve read far more by Melanie Phillips than by Ben White, and I'm a left-winger who tries to avoid the tabloids!

[oberliner]

20. What is the relationship between Cif and The Guardian itself?

The posts on "Comment is Free" such as the one cited in the OP have the appearance of being op-ed stories from The Guardian. From the look of the site, they seem to carry the imprimatur of The Guardian; however, it is not always clear whether or not those posters have any relationship with the newspaper itself.

[LeftishBrit]

21. It's a political opinion site given space on the Guardian's website...

and to that extent associated with them, but the majority of those who have posted on CiF do not write for the Guardian itself; and the Guardian does not necessarily endorse their posts. In fact, I presume that the title 'Comment is Free', which comes from the saying 'Comment is free, but facts are sacred' carries in itself the implication that the 'Guardian' regards the posts as personal opinions, and not necessarily indisputable facts.

[shira]

22. i'm talking about I/P related issues, not everything else

those who have hateful, far RW opinions on I/P are not taken very seriously and are marginalized....the same cannot be said of Ben White who gets ringing endorsements from John Dugard and Desmond Tutu.

[LeftishBrit]

24. I think that's one of the fundamental differences between us, actually!

It's difficult for me to NOT think of the issues in terms of 'everything else'.

And for that matter, I think that those (outside of Israel itself) who have hateful far RW opinions on I/P also tend to have them in the context of far-right attitudes to many other things, which may overshadow their specific I/P views. It's usually in the context of one, or sometimes more, of the three following viewpoints:

(1) Hostility to domestic minority groups: Muslims and immigrants and especially those who are both are Bad. Palestinains are bad, because they are mostly Muslims too.

(2) Neocon-imperialist views: Everything should be seen in terms of advancing the American cause in the world by force. Palestinians are to be treated as enemies, because they are seen as allied with America's enemies: in the past, the Soviet Union; now, Iran.

(3) Xenophobic-isolationist views: Foreigners are untrustworthy and a drain on one's own country's resources. We should avoid any dealings with them. Therefore American and the West should cut Israel loose (this may or often may not be associated with any sort of pro-Palestinian attitude).

I don't think, for example, that Dan Pipes, who is a holder of viewpoint (2), and has at the least endorsed other people with viewpoint (1), is in any way marginalized!

[LeftishBrit]

12. The UK is committing suicide, because it let someone publish a stupid one-sided article?

And I agree that this particular article is stupid and one-sided.

The Guardian is better (and less widely circulated) than most of our newspapers, though Ben White is not its shining star. For real constant lies and bigotry, see the right-wing tabloids. Despite these, we have not committed suicide yet.

Do you think that the USA is 'committing suicide' because it gives media space to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Lou Dobbs, Paul Craig Roberts, and no doubt lots of people whom I haven't heard of?

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Why do you think the article's stupid and one-sided? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

34. Actually I admit that I dislike the author because of previous articles..

and this is not nearly as bad as many of his articles.

But what bothers me about *this* article is that he accuses Israel of not being a democracy because of discriminatory practices, when similar discriminatory practices occur in other countries including his (mine); and I haven't noticed his questioning the democratic status of other countries.

I agree that the treatment of the Bedouin is shameful, as is the treatment of indigenous people in many places. Those concerned about the matter should consider supporting the projects of the following organization:

www.nisped.org.il

In any case, implying that the UK is 'committing suicide' because of this article, or even because of this writer's less salubrious articles getting published, is seriously over-the-top.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. I haven't really read much of his before...

The regular ones I read are Seth Freedman and Richard Silverstein and a few others, but I haven't read much from him.

When it comes to Israel damaging its reputation as a democracy, there was one bit that caught my eye that really does fall into that category, and that was this bit: 'Second, in mid-November the Knesset passed an amendment to prevent around 25,000 Bedouins from voting for their mayor and regional councillors. Elections had already been postponed for two years, but now the law means "that as long as the minister of interior deems the residents not ready for elections, the elections will be postponed".' I'd be surprised to discover that there's anything similar to that happening in the UK, and even with the appalling conditions many indigenous Australians* live in, I'm not aware of laws being passed to restrict their right to vote at any level of government (we have three levels here: federal, state, and local govt). If they are happening, I think it's very reasonable to say that their reputations as democracies are being damaged...

Yeah, I saw that comment about the UK committing suicide over the article and had a bit of a snicker at the whole Drama Queen angle :)

* You mentioned that the treatment of indigenous people in many places is shameful, and here is one of those places.

Note to lurkers - All the *The UN is a joke and not be taken seriously* people must stop reading at this point because I don't think I could keep a straight face if any of them start telling me the UN is lying and ever so anti-Australia...

UN says Aboriginal health conditions worse than Third World

[shaayecanaan]

62. Reading between the lines...

I think the poster meant that the the UK is committing suicide because of its appeasement and self-effacement in the face of the Islamic hordes who threaten to overwhelm Europe. Thats generally the "meme", so to speak.

[LeftishBrit]

64. At least it often is (see post 25)

In the UK 'Islamic hordes that overwhelm us!!!11111' = a massive 3% of the population. But the RW press will always find someone to scapegoat. Including various groups at various times. The Jews, especially in the 1930s. And the Irish. And the Afro-Caribbaeans. And those of Indian descent. And the Poles, when they can get away with it. And the Gypsies and Travellers. And...

[shira]

43. It should break every liberal's heart that nearly 50% of Europeans believe Israel is conducting a

...war of extermination against Palestinians.

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3815828,00.html

It's no wonder that articles from Ben White are received well in many 'progressive' circles in the UK, Europe, and here at the DU.

:eyes:

Pretty sick.

[oberliner]

8. And a snarky rich white British young man shall lead them

No need for actual journalists when folks like Ben White can string together a bunch of links and call it an article.

[shira]

10. i'm sure his beginner's guide on Israel apartheid is a real winner, chock-full of solid facts

:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Not a very subtle attempt to shoot the messenger...

Not having much luck with fluffing around asking about what CiF was, now we get the *too many links* and *snarky white Brit* approaches. What the fuck does his colour have to do with anything at all? He's not snarky just because you disagree with what he's pointing out, and I'm not sure how you know if he's wealthy or not, considering you claim to know so little about CiF that you were asking questions about it that anyone with a bit of familiarity with it and its contributors would know...

If you'd bothered to read the article, it wasn't a bunch of links (many CiF articles have links embedded for readers who want to read further on topicsw touched on in articles) but an article on what is a serious issue concerning the Bedouin of Israel. I hope you do take the time to go back and reread the article, as you might actually learn something from it...

[oberliner]

35. It has 23 links

Only 16 paragraphs.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. And why is that a problem for you?

Take a look at this one and explain to me what the problem is with having more links than there are paragraphs:

http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/00182753.htm


I'd be interested to know if you consider that to be stringing together a bunch of links and calling it an overview, or whether that criticism is confined to articles you don't like.

Embedding links in content to give readers more information if they want it is a good thing, and I'm really not sure where yr coming from with complaining about it happening in a CiF article.

[oberliner]

39. The piece relies entirely on other people's reporting (including the dubious Israel National News)

Not a single interview with anyone. No visit to the locations in question. Just a cobbling together of snippets from articles that other people wrote.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. So yr problem isn't actually the number of links at all?

Now yr going to have a complain about the substance of the article? Is there anything at all in the article that you dispute? It's common knowledge that the Bedouin are treated appallingly, and I'm not sure why you appear to be having problems acknowledging this or discussing it...

[LeftishBrit]

14. There is a genuine problem that he's addressing.

I admit to having a reflex distrust of Ben White, who can come across as a sort of mirror-image of Melanie Phillips.

But it is very true that the Bedouin are often shamefully treated by the Israelis - and by the Egyptians. What is being done in the Negev is revolting.

But it's easy for a journalist to attack *other* countries for not being a true democracy. If Ben White devoted similar attention to the treatment of refugees and asylum seekers in the UK, for example, or to the tabloid-fuelled discrimination against Gypsies and Travellers, etc., he would have a stronger leg to stand on when he attacks another country.

[oberliner]

36. Things are probably even worse in the Sinai than in the Negev

But of course Egypt does not even have anything approaching a democracy.