Israel to build NIS 1.5b fence along Egypt border

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday ordered to construct a fence at a cost of NIS 1.5 billion along two segments of Israel's border with Egypt, in an attempt to stem the infiltration of migrant workers as well as of terrorist elements into Israel.

"I took the decision to close Israel's southern border to infiltrators and terrorists. This is a strategic decision to secure Israel's Jewish and democratic character," Netanyahu said in a statement.

Thousands of African and other migrants have come to Israel through its porous border with Egypt over the last few years.

Netanyahu said Israel would "remain open to refugees" from conflict zones but added, "we cannot let tens of thousands of illegal workers infiltrate into Israel through the southern border and inundate our country with illegal aliens."

more

[bemildred]

1. This sounds familiar somehow, I can't quite place it ... nt

[azurnoir]

2. Has the exact route of the fence been announced yet?

Any Egyptian olive groves that will need to be on the Israeli side, for security of course?

[pelsar]

3. explain please....

i m curious what you know of the israeli/egyptian border.....for the basis of your comment......

[azurnoir]

4. snark and the west bank

you know those olive groves and other land that Israel has build its security wall on, albeit in the case of Egypt I;m sure that the wall will be on the Israeli side of border and that there is most likely little in the way of olive groves and agricultural land in that area

[pelsar]

5. lebanon border, Jordanian border, egyptian border fence, golan border, gaza border fence*

all built within the acknowledged israeli side of the border (agreed upon by the UN).

thats 5 borders vs the westbank which is far more complex....nothing like taking an additional cheap shot at israel....avoiding facts and history to presume some additional evil intentions



*within the 67 borders, don't know if the UN was involved in the border itself

[azurnoir]

6. Well that's really nice

but I was being quite specific in comparison to the West Bank not Jordan or anywhere else

[pelsar]

7. of course there is no comparison, but that irrelevant in the "demonize israel world"

that should be obvious which is why you chose the westbank...you might as well as chosen the Mexican border for your comparison. Its clear the object is to bash israel, irregardless of the relevant facts, history or conditions.

the more interesting question of course is why...... (care to answer?)

[azurnoir]

8. I did not say no comparison and in fact compared this to

the West Bank wall but you did help make my point, that being IMO* Israel respects the rights of countries that have a standing military As to your comparison to the US wall that would also be correct and also makes another point for me that being IMO* such walls or fences are both costly and ineffective except as a political device


*required these days

[Dick Dastardly]

9. Its more like they respect the rights of countries that don't attack or let attacks launched from

their territory occur.

Then again from the point of view of yourself and others it may be more like the nerve of Israel to think they have the right to defend itself from attack and not respect the rights of those to attack Israel freely and unimpeded.



Walls and fences are costly but they are effective as we see in the WB where suicide attacks and other various terror attacks dropped to nothing because they could not infiltrate into Israel. The Gaza fence has stopped such attacks too. No one claims its the end all be all solution to all threats but it is an important link in a multi layered security system.

[azurnoir]

10. Would your claim of respect include Lebanon?

it has not a whit to do with the "nerve" of Israel it has much more to do with the differences of this fence vs the West Bank fence and IMO the similarity between Netanyahu's decision to build this fence and a former US leaders decision to build another fence

as to Israel's "right to self defence" that has not been mentioned except by you

[pelsar]

11. the walls and fences work great.....

to clarify what you and others dont know...when a terrorist or smuggler jumps over the electronic fences...they set off a series of actions that cause the intruder to be chased down and caught before they can kill people/sell their drugs

these intrusions and attempted attacks happen often enough and its the fence that saves lives.

i understand that many dont like the idea of the fences....i guess because they work?...otherwise i cant think of any other reason.

[azurnoir]

12. exactly which walls/fences are you talking about?

as far what I do or do not know your being quite presumptuous

[pelsar]

13. the fences on the borders...

lebanon.....many attempts have been thwarted by the fences....Jordan too....gazas fence.

the wall around the westbank has virtually stopped the suicide bombers completely (there are still attempts).

As far as me being presumptuous of what you do and dont know....i would disagree, your knowledge of the actual actions on the 'ground" has shown to be rather limited in the many discussions we've had. Your knowledge of the the military, how it works, the limitations of the equipment etc ...also clearly limited by lack of experience/knowledge. Hence i believe its not a far jump to assume that you've never seen the electronic fences, know how they work, understand the procedures and know about how many terrorists have been caught by them.

[azurnoir]

14. Yes you are quite presumptous

however if by past discussions you mean your trying to paint a picture of the optical systems in a Merkava 4 tank as being no better than a cheap pair of binoculars and the picture of a panicked lone gunner in this same tank being in a life or death battle situation when in fact they were on a very routine observation patrol then well what can I say we should but I am not counting on it agree to disagree

as to the wall around the WB I have no problem with Israel building as many walls as it takes to feel safe no matter how silly I may think some of it is however to review my opinion on the WB wall it that the wall/fence is encroaching on disputed territory and IMO is trying to artificially create a border where none as of yet exists and it would seem that the ICJ agrees with me

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf

[pelsar]

15. the walls and the tanks....

there is little question that that the wb wall is on disputed territory....and that its more than a mere preventive wall......it was built to save israeli lives foremost with loads of politics, geographical and military solutions that defined its route...that was never the subject as far as i know, unless of course the goals was to change the subject from israel building a fence to protect itself to the westbank,

tanks
As far as the optical systems and "tanks working in tandem to identify targets, as you've stated previously....well, your presumptions were clearly that of a non experienced person who believes they know something.....i shall explain what is rather obvious to those with some experience:

the "manual" you seem to presume calls for "two tanks working together" (i cannot confirm this-its your claim)...in reality that second tank may not be there, mechanical breakdown, concentrating elsewhere, radio problems...or, the most common, because they are elsewhere, they cannot see what the first tank is even looking at (physical barriers such as geography, distance, vegetation etc). Your assumptions were/are that this "second tank" (on a knoll?)....was there and could confirm the tv camera.....(do you have a copy of the radio communications?)

but now you've added some additional info based on (???). "A routine observation patrol.".....you've got to be kidding, now you've got israeli military maps with the definitions of the missions and the orders for the commanders?..your right i'm being presumptuous-you just made that up, you have no information on the type of mission, the orders, the intel of the area etc.....and you make a claim that it was a "routine patrol." and the "panicked lone gunner" (or perhaps it was the commander who panicked-do you have the internal radio communications as well?)

anything else you want to add to demonize the crew?......

for summary sake lets review: you claim knowledge of: (from previous posts as well)

- the number of tactical tanks in the field at the time
- knowledge of working optical and radio equipment on the tanks
- their line of sights (for at least two tanks)
- external tank radio communications (commander to command post on unidentified object-or no communication.....)
- internal tank communications (gunner/commander on the decision to shoot)
- the type of patrol
- state of mind of the gunner
- what exactly the gunner saw in his sights

i'm impressed....though i would add there is a slight bit of doubt in my mind that you actually know all of that, even though you claim you do.....perhaps you would like to explain why you believe you know the above?

[azurnoir]

16. First a reminder

our discussion of tanks related to a specific incident that being the death of Fadel Shana a Rueters camera man who was killed in Gaza while filming the tanks that killed him

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=208438#208614

as to the wall if Israel wants to protect it self that is Israel's right but that protection should IMO and that of the ICJ be confined to Israeli territory as it is in the case of most other areas except for the one that Israel seems to be trying to colonize or "settle"

[pelsar]

17. i call it the original sin theory.....

its goes like this:
israels establishment or for others it was winning the 6 day war....(and its variations), or not accepting the "the problem is the territories theory as the word from god"......makes israel by definition an illegal, evil state, and given that its citizens do elect is leaders, that evilness extends down to the population as well and especially to its soldiers.

whereas some people are more blunt about it, most are not as in your posts...... I would say yours are an excellent example of this:

in so many of your posts, you make two claims against israel...one is the "israelis are evil and have evil intentions as the default (see tank gunner intentionally shooting TV guy, air force pilot not dropping bomb because of the difficulty of the PR afterwards-previous post of yours)..and then you leave yourself an ideological "out" where you use the words: maybe, possibly, etc.

but always there is the "israelis/IDF with their evil intentions....as an option within your posts

it was quite the eye opener to realize it...it took me quite a few years. What clarifys it....is when i ask you to explain where you get your info from for your accusation, your answer?

nada
nothing
zero
ignore
pretend it wasnt written

not surprising, since the evilness is not within us......its elsewhere, where somethings just don't seem to change.

[azurnoir]

18. original sin? are you waxing "Catholic" here?

"whereas some people are more blunt about it, most are not as in your posts...... I would say yours are an excellent example of this:"

really "some people"

'in so many of your posts, you make two claims against israel...one is the "israelis are evil and have evil intentions as the default (see tank gunner intentionally shooting TV guy, air force pilot not dropping bomb because of the difficulty of the PR afterwards-previous post of yours)..and then you leave yourself an ideological "out" where you use the words: maybe, possibly, etc'.

yes but then "some people" do not think of this in black and white as you seem to here, but one can only wonder it seems 28 minutes can make a world of difierence' your also using selective memory with relationship to the IAF not dropping bombs as I gave another reason

"but always there is the "israelis/IDF with their evil intentions....as an option within your posts"

it is an option in almost any situation involving humans, seeing as how we are speaking of IDF that is what is said in my posts however I would say the same about any military in my own countries

'it was quite the eye opener to realize it...it took me quite a few years. What clarifys it....is when i ask you to explain where you get your info from for your accusation, your answer?'

nada
nothing
zero
ignore
pretend it wasnt written'

I pretended nothing I posted a thread in which we discussed the actions IDF tanks in a specific incident, because your statements seemed to be quite misleading as to my statements on the subject of IDF tanks, where as in reality they were in relationship to that specific incident and may I add you have said I did not answer a question any number of times when indeed I have but you did not like the answer

"not surprising, since the evilness is not within us......its elsewhere, where somethings just don't seem to change".

explain what you here what evilness is elsewhere or more clearly what is elsewhere?

Now for my part up until recently I had consiered you a "friendly advisary" but as international opinion against Israel grows so does your need to defend by "any means necessary" as a result it has turned quite ugly

[pelsar]

22. i disagree..your answers are usually never complete....

i 've noticed a pattern...

first is the accusation against israel...always with a question mark..meaning your accusation may or may not be true..but its always there no matter how absurd.

second: when questioned, you do answer..not very complete

if pushed you will use your "out"...meaning you might mention that your accusation may or may not be true.

sometimes as in the tank incident, you'll add "additional information" that you can't possibly know (though i have no idea why) and then add that to a tangled web of information

and finally, when I continue to question i get the general: i've already answered your question (which really translates to: i don't have a real answer, so i'll just stop right now before i dig myself in deeper or the alternative, that you actually believe you answered it- i dont know what is worse)...and move on to the next accusation.

its a pattern

what you rarely do, is answer a question directly. if you want an example i will be happy to provide one..on the condition you actually answer it.
__

as far israel on the intl scene..in the middle east things look better: the westbank is quiet with its economy working with israel, jordan remains quiet with economic ties, egypt, saudi arabia and others are all quietly with israel against hamas, hizballa and iran so there is a realignment going on...which is to israels favor and in the long run to the Palestinians as well.

as far as the west is concerned...the more interesting one is with the UK
the UKs attempt to arrest israelis will backfire since if they succeed, which i doubt, they will have to arrest obamas generals as well...that wont go over to well.

i could go on....but, i'm afraid your wishful thinking is no more than that....

[Ken Burch]

20. Give it a rest, pelsar...you know this can't be defended

You don't build a security fence between two countries at peace.

It's time for the Israeli government to admit that fences and war are NOT the answers to everything.

[Shaktimaan]

21. That's pretty funny.

Are you being sarcastic? Mexico/US anyone?

[pelsar]

23. HUh?....are you actually serious?

israel cant morally defend building a fence on its border with egypt where there is constant smuggling going on? be it drugs, women, refugee and some weapons and a few terrorists.

what is wrong with the fence?.....its not mined, there are no automatic machine guns......and the people who cross over will get caught (today many don't)

what is sooooo bad about it?

[Ken Burch]

19. UH...why? Aren't Egypt and Israel at PEACE?

:wtf:

[pelsar]

24. i guess you don't know much about the border..

perhaps ask first...or learn about it via the internet.....