The Tel Aviv Cluster

[Vegasaurus]

"Jews are a famously accomplished group. They make up 0.2 percent of the world population, but 54 percent of the world chess champions, 27 percent of the Nobel physics laureates and 31 percent of the medicine laureates.

Jews make up 2 percent of the U.S. population, but 21 percent of the Ivy League student bodies, 26 percent of the Kennedy Center honorees, 37 percent of the Academy Award-winning directors, 38 percent of those on a recent Business Week list of leading philanthropists, 51 percent of the Pulitzer Prize winners for nonfiction"
...

"Israel’s technological success is the fruition of the Zionist dream. The country was not founded so stray settlers could sit among thousands of angry Palestinians in Hebron. It was founded so Jews would have a safe place to come together and create things for the world.
...

But it’s more likely that Israel’s economic leap forward will widen the gap between it and its neighbors. All the countries in the region talk about encouraging innovation. Some oil-rich states spend billions trying to build science centers. But places like Silicon Valley and Tel Aviv are created by a confluence of cultural forces, not money. The surrounding nations do not have the tradition of free intellectual exchange and technical creativity.

For example, between 1980 and 2000, Egyptians registered 77 patents in the U.S. Saudis registered 171. Israelis registered 7,652."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/opinion/12brooks.html

[Vegasaurus]

1. No comments?

why?

You all prefer the "Israelis are murderers and practicers of apartheid and have no concern for human life" meme?

Look at what Jews and Israelis accomplish in this world, and how much their efforts positively affect the entire world!

[bemildred]

2. It's a touchy subject.

You can get in a lot of trouble for suggesting that Jewish people have too much power and influence. It all depends on how you do it I guess.

The gist of it is true enough, but it smacks of stereotyping too, just because you are Jewish, that doesn't mean you are automatically a mensch.

[azurnoir]

3. Well said n/t

[pelsar]

4. at the same time..why ignore facts......for PC bs.....

ignoring facts...no matter what the subject for favor of being PC is not just stupid in my eyes but foolish as well. Israels and the jews accomplishments and contributions to the worlds technology, etc is rather impressive given their numbers. The fact that their is linkage between jews and israel may irk many....but it exists, socially, historically, financially, etc...why ignore that as well? (PC again!) In contrast the arab world, which is in a long conflict with israel, has virtually none, and this is significant.

does that affect the politics? of course........in the crudest of words: intl politics/commerce is based on accomplishments, stability which inturn has an affect on influence.....why ignore those factors?


the solution to the I/P conflict is not based on charity and "morality" nor "justice"....its based on self interests of the parties involved.....get those inline and the conflict is solved- but that requires facts and honesty being upfront.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. An antisemite once told me it was PC bs to object to them saying Jews hold lots of power & influence

And they chided me and started posting link after link to info about American Jews who held positions of power and influence. If the OP had been around then, they would have added that to their arsenal as well. So why is it okay to think it's all fine and great when someone who has a track record of posting ugly and bigoted anti-Arab statements posts something that singles out Jews as being exceptional, but it's not okay when antisemites do the same thing? I detest both antisemitism and Jewish supremacy, and think people who have to go round puffing out their chests telling everyone how wonderful they are and how much others suck are pretty insecure and not too bright, which is why it's worth mentioning that US conservatives fall into that category...

Also, the linkage between Jews and Israel does appear to irk many, including some regular pro-Israel posters in this forum who I spotted insisting that there's a distinct separation between Israel and Jews and to try to link both is wrong...

[azurnoir]

11. Because it's actually not what is said but who is saying it

I read this OP early on and had somewhat the same thoughts as Bemildred, however as one who has been called an anti-semite more than once on this forum and really not feeling like the putting up with that crap at the moment I did not reply directly

the truly odd part is that in real life in debates on I/P topics I am told I'm an Israel apologist go figure :shrug:

[bemildred]

12. Yeah, you try to help out, and first thing you know you are accused of "ignoring facts". nt

[azurnoir]

13. yeah so it goes but maybe some

just have a thing for the "prom queen"

[bemildred]

9. Come come, she asked why no comments?

I gave her a reason and got the ball rolling. You ought to thank me. It is quite common for things to sink like a stone here because nobody feels like picking up the cudgel at the time.

[Tripmann]

10. Really Vegasaurus?

You all prefer the "Israelis are murderers and practicers of apartheid and have no concern for human life" meme?

Who's the 'You all'? Do you seriously think there are people here who condemn the entire nation of Israel for the actions of its government and security forces? Thats as dumb as criticising every american citizen for the invasion of Iraq.

The jewish people have indeed accomplished a lot, however these deeds are mutually exclusive to the suffering which some Israelis continue to inflict on the palestinians.

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. and many of the most brilliant scholars critical of Israeli policy are also Jewish

These qualities of Jewish people; inventiveness, creativity, academic excellence, critical and iconoclastic thinking and the contribution to science and the arts are admired by many, probably most Arab people. Arab peoples are only all too well aware of how the Arab world has lagged behind in many areas.

But that is not what the conflict is all about. Arab people, after all - are still people. They still have hopes and dreams and love their children and desire a better future for them, just like Jewish people and everyone else. They still have something to offer the world.

I would only hope for the day when these two people can live and respect each other as human beings of equal worth - in a just and lasting peace and start to listen to each other and learn from each other.

[pelsar]

6. its related and its foolish to ignore it....

its not a matter of the arab people being people or not......they are not lesser human beings for having a different culture from that of israel (or visa versa). But the different cultures, their attitudes are definitely a factor involved in the conflict-why ignore it?


you mentioned jewish scholars being critical of israeli policies...of course they are, that in fact is a critical factor for israeli success..group think, be it "progressives" conservatives, religious, etc is the "death" of a thriving society.

a thriving society must have different view points and opinions as a constant to avoid "groupthink" and that includes the politics of any one government. (see USSR and Lysenkoism for what groupthink and limited viewpoints can cause).

your example of jewish scholars against the israel govt policy is precisely why israel succeeds

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. a favorite Arab past time is arguing about politics

If you get a dozen Arabs together - you will hear a dozen different opinions. In that way, I don't think there is so much difference between Arabs and Jews.