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Holocaust remembrance is a boon for Israeli propaganda -Gideon Levy

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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 11:38 AM
Original message
Holocaust remembrance is a boon for Israeli propaganda -Gideon Levy
<snip>

"Israel's bigwigs attacked at dawn on a wide front. The president in Germany, the prime minister with a giant entourage in Poland, the foreign minister in Hungary, his deputy in Slovakia, the culture minister in France, the information minister at the United Nations, and even the Likud party's Druze Knesset member, Ayoob Kara, in Italy. They were all out there to make florid speeches about the Holocaust.

Wednesday was International Holocaust Remembrance Day, and an Israeli public relations drive like this hasn't been seen for ages. The timing of the unusual effort - never have so many ministers deployed across the globe - is not coincidental: When the world is talking Goldstone, we talk Holocaust, as if out to blur the impression. When the world talks occupation, we'll talk Iran as if we wanted them to forget.

It won't help much. International Holocaust Remembrance Day has passed, the speeches will soon be forgotten, and the depressing everyday reality will remain. Israel will not come out looking good, even after the PR campaign. On the eve of his departure, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke at Yad Vashem. "There is evil in the world," he said. "Evil must be stamped out at the beginning." Some people are "trying to deny the truth." Lofty words, said by the same person who only the day before, not quite in the same breath, uttered very different words, words of true evil, evil that should be extinguished at the start, evil that Israel is trying to hide.

Netanyahu spoke of a new "migration policy," one that is evil through and through. He malevolently lumped together migrant workers and wretched refugees - warning that they all endanger Israel, lower our wages, harm our security, make us into a third-world country and bring in drugs. He zealously supported our racist interior minister, Eli Yishai, who has spoken of the migrants as the spreaders of diseases such as hepatitis, tuberculosis, AIDS and God knows what else.

No Holocaust speech will erase these words of incitement and slander against migrants. No remembrance speech will obliterate the xenophobia that has reared its head in Israel, not only on the extreme right, as in Europe, but throughout government.

We have a prime minister who speaks about evil but is building a fence to prevent war refugees from knocking at Israel's door. A prime minister who speaks about evil but shares the crime of the Gaza blockade, now in its fourth year, leaving 1.5 million people in disgraceful conditions. A prime minister in whose country settlers perpetrate pogroms against innocent Palestinians under the slogan "price tag," which also has horrific historical connotations, but against whom the state does virtually nothing.

This is the prime minister of a state that arrests hundreds of left-wing protesters against the injustices of the occupation and the war in Gaza, while time grants mass pardons to the right-wingers who demonstrated against the disengagement. In his speech yesterday, Netanyahu's equating Nazi Germany with fundamentalist Iran was no more than cheap propaganda. Talk about "degrading the Holocaust." Iran isn't Germany, Ahmedinejad isn't Hitler and equating them is no less spurious than equating Israeli soldiers with Nazis."

The Holocaust must not be forgotten, and there is no need to compare it with anything. Israel must take part in the efforts to keep its memory alive, but in doing so it must show up with clean hands, clean of evil of their own doing. And it must not arouse suspicion that it is cynically using the memory of the Holocaust to obliterate and blur other things. Regrettably, this is not the case."

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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, it was a hell of a boon for 6 million dead Jews and the 14 million dead...
non Jews who were butchered during WWII. And it must have been a blast, after WWII in the Killing fields of Laos and other genocides.

I have relatives who died in the holocaust.

Remembering it isn't propaganda, but this piece is certainly is.

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. well said or it would be if that is what the article said
but it is not did you miss this

The Holocaust must not be forgotten, and there is no need to compare it with anything. Israel must take part in the efforts to keep its memory alive, but in doing so it must show up with clean hands, clean of evil of their own doing. And it must not arouse suspicion that it is cynically using the memory of the Holocaust to obliterate and blur other things. Regrettably, this is not the case.

The article states that certain Israeli leaders are using the Holocaust for political ends are we to take it that's OK with you?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'll ask my dead realtives next time I speak to them.
We keep the memeory of the Holocaust alive in hopes that it will forstall another. Meanwhile survivors live with a multigeneraltional trauma that doesn't go away.

I don't support this government of Israel. But we Jews will keep the memory of the Holocaust in what ever way we see fit.

Never Again...
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. How self righteous of you
Edited on Fri Jan-29-10 01:51 AM by azurnoir
did you experience the Holocaust yourself or was it your Grandparents that did?
In any event what was said in the article had nothing to do with not remembering the Holocaust but rather using the Holocaust as leverage for unrelated political ends something that IMO dishonors the memory of the victims both living and dead

edited to remove personal info that really has nothing to due with this
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. OMG! A psychic! This so reminds me of that South Park episode about John Edwards...
It was called The Biggest Douche in the Universe. One of the best episodes ever...

Anyway, sorry for disturbing the carefully cultivated air of self-righteousness I can feel in this thread. Listen, when you get on the ghost-line and chat with yr relatives can you tell them Violet said there's no justification for cynically exploiting the Holocaust. It's just so horribly douchey...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. It isn't self-righteous to remember the Holocaust or any national tragedy
Would you say the same of a Native American or Aboriginal Australian who spoke of the need to remember their dead relatives?

Any national tragedy can sometimes be cynically exploited by political rabble-rousers; but that doesn't mean that it should not be remembered and spoken of.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. No, it's not self-righteous to do that, but that's NOT what the poster was doing...
What that poster was doing was defending cynical exploitation, not the other way round...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I don't think you can get that from what he said at all...
I think he was just defending Holocaust remembrance. Not its cynical exploitation by anyone.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I'm not sure how you can't see it...
Read Az's post where Az asked: 'The article states that certain Israeli leaders are using the Holocaust for political ends are we to take it that's OK with you?'

The response was to say they'd ask their dead relatives and to say that the poster believes Jews can remember the Holocaust how they see fit. How can't that be seen as support of the cynical exploitation that was done by the Nutty govt?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I must disagree here
the poster was incredibly self rightous not to mention quite presumptuous his quote

We keep the memeory of the Holocaust alive in hopes that it will forstall another. Meanwhile survivors live with a multigeneraltional trauma that doesn't go away.

I don't support this government of Israel. But we Jews will keep the memory of the Holocaust in what ever way we see fit.


the subject of the Holocaust and how it is used as a political tool by some is quite painful IMO at this point in time we as a whole are on the cusp of losing the last living memories the last survivors are quite elderly and in the next 10 or so years will be no more, then the Holocaust becomes the stuff of history books not quite'"real" anymore and if it is continued to be treated in the manner that some are treating it even now it will lose IMO all meaning at all

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Well, obviously I can't speak for another poster; but my impression is that the objection was mainly
to the title. (At least one other poster, and one whom I believe to be generally anti-Zionist, had a similar reaction to the title.)

Beginning a post with 'The Holocaust is a boon to..." is extremely provocative and probably intended to be.

To give just one example from another area: it is certainly true that many politicians have shamelessly exploited the tragedy of 9-11; but an article that began '9-11 was a boon...' would probably elicit quite strong reactions, especially from people who lost friends or relatives in the attack.

I think we all do agree that we do need to remember the Holocaust, and also that politicians who cheapen it by using it to whip up their base are disgusting. But the real reasons for Holocaust remembrance have nothing to do with rabble-rousing politics.




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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-30-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. After Cambodia and Rwanda, it's too late to say "never again".
There have been other genocides since the Holocaust, and by and large the world stood by and watched.

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. At present the world is standing by while Darfur suffers genocide
On the whole, people seem at least better at responding to a natural disaster such as in Haiti, than to a genocide. Perhaps it is too painful to acknowledge that *humans* can be the cause of so much evil.

www.savedarfur.org
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. It's wrong to use the Holocaust to silence debate about the Occupation
Edited on Fri Feb-05-10 07:18 AM by Ken Burch
And it's wrong to imply that the Holocaust justifies everything that the Israeli security apparatus does to Palestinians.

And, let's be honest, Bibi and his party and their coalition partners do BOTH of the above on a regular basis.

The Palestinian people want self-determination. They don't want to turn Jews into lampshades.

And the Palestinians bear no responsibility for what Hitler did.

Finally, it wouldn't even have saved any of Hitler's victims of Israel had existed in his day. Hitler would simply have carpet-bombed the place and no one would have stopped him.

The event must be remembered, and must be used to make sure that no one ever again suffers as Hitler's victims did. It should not be applied to the Israel/Palestine discussion at all, however.

The best commemoration of the Holocaust is to work for a world without bigotry, poverty, greed and exploitation. Without those things, poisonous nationalism cannot take root, and without poisonous nationalism we can have a world without future Hitlers.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. The bit that makes me uncomfortable about this..
is that Holocaust remembrance is somehow linked to Israel 'showing up with clean hands'.

It would be wonderful if Israel had cleaner hands, but remembering the Holocaust is not linked to this. The Holocaust isn't about Israel; it's about Jews as a whole.

I am sure that Netanyahu uses it as propaganda, and it would be a genuine criticism to say that something as serious as the Holocaust should not be cheapened by use in a politician's rabble-rousing speech. But whatever Israel says or doesn't say, does or doesn't do, does not affect the validity of Holocaust remembrance.

I agree that the analogies between Iran and Nazi Germany also cheapen and trivialize the Holocaust.

I also agree that the xenophobia and bigotry accepted in the present Israeli government are EXTREMELY worrying and depressing in a democracy. However, Levy is wrong in thinking that xenophobia in Europe is *only* a problem on the 'Far Right'. It is pushed by many mainstream right-wing media outlets, and factors into a great deal of mainstream-right (and sometimes even centre or left) Europaean politics, especially in the form of bigotry against immigrants. In a few countries such as Poland and Italy, it is currently a very serious problem.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-30-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. Charles Jacobs on great threats to Jews / Israel...
Edited on Sat Jan-30-10 10:47 AM by shira
Where's our leadership?
http://www.peaceandtolerance.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=112:wheres-our-leadership&catid=7:our-statements&Itemid=39

Friday, 08 January 2010 15:10
(This article was written by Americans for Peace and Tolerance President Dr. Charles Jacobs and was originally published in the Jewish Advocate on December 31, 2009.)

We are a small people. We have multiple and powerful external enemies. Striving for Jewish political unity is our natural and rational impulse. Criticizing other Jewish leaders and mainstream Jewish organizations is usually just not done.

But these are extraordinary times. We face daunting challenges for which there are no known answers. Chief among them are Islamic anti-Semitism and the global jihad that pose enormous, unanticipated threats to Jews around the world.

In my last column I criticized the Anti-Defamation League and its head, Abraham Foxman, for its inadequate response to these threats. In truth, it is not only the ADL that is failing: Few Jewish leaders and almost no mainstream organizations have alerted our community that we face a radically new and potentially existential threat profile.

Jews are caught up in a perfect storm: In Western societies, real danger to Jews no longer comes from Christian hatred of Judaism or from Nazi-like animus against our "race"; it comes instead from a hatred of the Jewish state and its Jewish supporters. That this animus comes mostly from the ideological left, with which a majority of Jews identify, is painful and confusing to many.

At the same time, blowing in from the Muslim world is a different sort of anti-Semitism, one which combines modern anti-Zionist themes with primordial Islamic theological hatred. Jew-hatred now drives countless masses around the globe. Imbibing this poison, Muslim radicals have attacked and murdered Jewish people from Israel to Europe, from India to Seattle.

Islamic hatred has indeed come to America. In 1999, Sufi Sheikh Hisham Kabanni, head of the Supreme Islamic Council, testified to the State Department that 80 percent of American mosques are in the hands of radicals. A study by Freedom House, a Washington, D.C. policy center, found Saudi-produced anti-Semitic literature in Islamic Centers around the country. "Close Guantanamo, Re-open Auschwitz" has been shouted by Muslims at anti-Israel demonstrations in Fort Lauderdale and posted on Boston-based Muslim Web sites.

Jewish leaders, at least at the national level, are not blind to these threats. Two years ago at an international conference on global anti- Semitism in Jerusalem, the heads of many major American Jewish organizations heard speakers like Robert Wistrich, the director of Hebrew University's Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, who described Muslim Judeophobia as an existential threat. Last March, Wistrich wrote in Haaretz that "the scale and extremism of the literature and commentary available in Arab or Muslim newspapers, journals, magazines, caricatures, on Islamist websites, on the Middle Eastern radio and TV news, in documentaries, films, and educational materials, is comparable only to that of Nazi Germany at its worst." Through the Internet, this material is available to Muslims living among us here.

Because the mainstream media for various reasons downplay these threats, Jews who depend on The New York Times, The Boston Globe or CNN mostly don't see how our situation has been radically altered. And so the question remains: If they know, why haven't our leaders told us?

I suggest three reasons. First is a fear of being attacked as racists, bigots and Islamophobes - a line of attack that has been particularly effective against Jewish organizations. Second is a fear of being targeted for "defamation" suits like the one launched against activists and media outlets in Boston who reported on, or asked questions about the radical connections of leaders of the Saudi-funded Roxbury mosque. "Lawfare" works: Legal defense costs can be crippling. But I think the real reason that our leaders are silent is that they simply don't know what to do. Rather than admit this, they stay mum and mostly limit their public efforts to issuing reports and posting on their Web sites.

In this context, the letter to the Advocate by ADL's New England head, Derreck Shulman - in which he protests that I am "unaware of ADL's activism" against radical Islam - was a bit disappointing. Shulman points to articles about Islamic extremists and Arab anti-Jewish cartoons on ADL's Web site, instances of Congressional testimony and consultations with world leaders. Surely this is not a serious effort for an operation with a $50 million annual budget that claims to be our chief defender. Where is the big-picture strategy?

I don't blame Derrick - in fact his letter exposing CAIR (Committee on American Islamic Relations) just published in the Globe is a step in the right direction. The problem resides in New York. Should Jews not expect Foxman - and our other leaders - to level with us? To tell us what they know - about the penetration of the Muslim Brotherhood into our communities and about the proliferation of radical mosques across America, and about the intimidation of Jewish students by Muslims on campuses?

Help us, Abe. We cannot continue with PC-denial and with timidity. Silence is potentially deadly. Let us face this challenge forthrightly, and together.

more on Charles Jacobs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Jacobs_(political_activist)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-30-10 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. British Parliament hosts anti-Zionist Auschwitz survivor for Holocaust memorial day
Yesterday, I attended the Holocaust memorial event at Auschwitz in Poland. Little did I know that back in my home country anti-Israeli activists had co-opted two Labour MPs to host a Holocaust survivor in Parliament… to lambast the State of Israel and to accuse Zionists of abusing the Holocaust for political aims.

This gross perversion of the true meaning and significance of the day on which the civilised world was marking the 65th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz was recounted first hand by Jonathan Hoffman, co-vice chair of the UK’s Zionist Federation and one of Britain’s leading pro-Israel activists. Hoffman attended the event and gives his account in the link below.

more...
http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/british-parliament-hosts-anti-zionist-auschwitz-survivor-for-holocaust-memorial-day/
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Robin Shepherd is not a person to be citing in this, or any, connection
He is a right-wing hawk, Director of National Affairs at the right-wing British Henry Jackson Institute. He constantly rails at the left, liberals (including Obama), and 'multiculturalism' and writes enthusiastically about the monster of pure evil Melanie Phillips. (Yes, I have objected to the use of 'evil' e.g. between Dershowitz and Goldstone; but there are exceptions to all rules and she is one of them! Incidentally, she has attcked Dershowitz for being too liberal.)

(On the specific issue: I think that anti-Zionist Holocaust survivors have as much right as the larger number of Zionist ones to speak in memory of the Holocaust. The Holocaust was a tragedy for all Jews, and all Holocaust survivors (so long as they do not blatantly deny the Holocaust!) have a right to be heard.)

Why does it matter if right-wingers and culture-warriors are quoted as the defenders of Israel? It matters for several reasons. For one thing, the Right is in my opinion a nasty and dangerous viewpoint and harmful to all; of course Right and Left must have equal freedom of speech in a democracy, but DU is a site for the specific purpose of *combating* the Right, not promoting or defending it. For another, encouraging xenophobic mob-spirit is not only wrong in itself, but is fertilizing just the sort of soil that breeds antisemitism as well as other sorts of prejudice. It is a dangerous myth that Islamophobia and anti-immigrant prejudice are weapons against antisemitism; in fact all such prejudices go together, and when one increases in society so generally do the others. But in addition to all these, there is one issue that should matter to you in particular: quoting the Right to defend Israel is likely just to *encourage* the 'mirror-image-ism' that sees all Zionists and Israelis as allies of the Right, and which thus increases anti-Zionist sentiment on the left.

Here is Ami Isseroff, someone whom I know you like, on this very subject:

http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Left_Zionism.htm

Among other reasons why in his view Israel is losing left-wing support:

·
'·Right-Wing establishment groups represent Zionism in the USA - The ZOA, AIPAC and kindred organizations in the US came to be the self- appointed spokespersons for Israel. Students do not identify with the establishment, and they do identify with underdogs. For its own purposes, AIPAC has cultivated an image of power and alignment with the establishment. This positioned it, in the eyes of Jewish contributors, as an effective lobby worthy of their financial support. In fact, AIPAC's effect on US policy was probably minimal. Lobbyists work through congress. Congress does not have the major role in setting US foreign policy. On the other hand, AIPAC's publicity image set it up as the perfect target of so-called anti-Zionists - the incarnation of the world Jewish conspiracy. Anti-Zionists were able to use AIPAC's own publicity campaign and the image it had created, as powerful negative symbols of Israel and the supposed sinister 'Zionist" and "Neocon" (synonyms for "Jewish") influence in the United States.

The Zionist Organization of America seems to have the idea that the best way to support Israel is to oppose the policies of the duly elected Israeli government, and to try to make "Zionism" synonymous with everything that is loathsome to the liberal ideology: the occupation, irredentism and falsification of Israel. Few people are aware that the Zionist Organization of America is actually a right-wing fringe group that doesn't represent American Zionism...
·
·
·Defending the Indefensible - The anti-Zionists succeed because they attack Israel where it is weak, scoring against checkpoint brutality, the occupation, Greater Israel ideology, the regrettable deaths of anti-Zionist activists like Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndahl and anomalous historical incidents like the infamous Deir Yassin massacre. The strategy of groups like ZOA seems to be to "attack the enemy where he is strong." They insist on identifying Israel with all of these issues. ZOA in particular published an embarrassing denial of the Deir Yassin massacre that reflects the views of right-wing extremists in Israel, and was presented as if it is the view of "the Zionists" collectively. They turn the Deir Yassin massacre and the accidental killing of Rachel Corrie into "Zionist" causes rather than aberrations, playing into the hands of anti-Zionists...


Zionist advocates work themselves into an ideological corner - Those who claim to represent Zionism have systematically undertaken to alienate every group from the Zionist cause. "Leftists" like Kerry and Gore are attacked mercilessly as anti-Semites and "soft on terror." In fact, they are neither leftists, nor anti-Zionists nor "soft on terror." Peace initiatives are attacked as treason. The Zionist cause is generally advocated by right-wing groups. Their materials are constructed to appeal to the extreme right: "Israel is the ally of the USA" "God gave Israel the land." It focuses on defending the occupation, delegitimizing Palestinians and Palestinian right to self-determination, and Israeli political parties of the left. Shimon Peres, Yossi Sarid, Uri Avnery and others are all lumped together as "self-hating Jews." "Zionist" commentary even attacks the policies of the Israeli governments since 1994: The Oslo peace process and the disengagement. The same people who insist that it is treason and anti-Semitism to criticize the occupation, also insist that it is right to call Peres a traitor or to insist that the Israeli government is violating the "Human Rights" of the settlers.'
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. then neither should Seth Freedman, Ben White, Norman Finkelstein, etc..
Edited on Fri Feb-05-10 12:30 PM by shira
Melanie Phillips is without doubt a RW, bigoted nutjob so it would be good to know why Shepherd is so enthusiastic about her.

As for Ami Isseroff and the divide b/w right and left on Israel, here is something very recent and I'm interested in your thoughts on this because I couldn't agree more...

However, Im TIrtzu deserve the same hearing as others. The "rights" advocates ask us to separate the political message of groups like New Profile from the facts they present. There are, for example, real human rights violations at checkpoints that don't serve the cause of Israel in any way, and Machsomwatch exposes them. That doesn't mean Israel is an illegitimate apartheid state and it doesn't mean Zionism is racism, but it points out a fault that is in urgent need of correction. However, the same advocates who want us to accept testimony from Machsom Watch or Betselem, have no problem trying to discredit the facts that Im Tirtzu presents as the work of "settlers." It doesn't matter who said it. It matters that it is true.

Nobody denies that N.I.F. supports these organizations, and it is a fact that most of these organizations are out to destroy Israel. We need to separate the message from the messenger. It is too bad that middle of the road, responsible groups, including peace groups who are desperately in need of funds, did not dare to raise the issue of New Israel's selective funding of radicals, and left it to Im Tirzu. Where were all the Tikkun Olam people when Zochrot and Adallah were telling lies about Israel? Isn't correction of falsehoods also Tikkun Olam?

A recent article by Solomonia about New Israel Fund attracted vigorous protests claiming that these organizations are only fighting for civil rights and pointing out injustices. Let's be clear. If there is an injustice in any democratic society, it is the duty of citizens to report it, to highlight it and to fight it. But the way to fight Jim Crow in the United States was not to join the Cominform and insist that America must be destroyed. Similarly injustices in Israel cannot be fixed by those who advocate the destruction of Israel. Decapitation is not a good way to cure headaches. The Arab society that would replace Israel would not have the same respect for human rights, and there are also the human rights of Israeli Jews to consider. We are also human and have rights.

It is right and proper for any organization to give evidence to an investigatory commission, but it is wrong for them to give fabricated evidence, to claim that dead terrorists are civilians and to pass off hearsay as fact. It is right to point out inhumane behavior at checkpoints. It is wrong to use instances of brutality in a campaign to delegitimize the state. It is right for Breaking the Silence to uncover abuses by the army, and to provide documentation of these abuses to Israelis. It is wrong for Breaking the Silence to take their traveling road show of Israeli atrocity stories to US campuses, and show it to 18 year olds who never served in the army, never heard of Hamas and have no other background information about the Middle East. Adallah has the right to advocate for an Arab Palestinian state perhaps, but it is simply insane for New Israel Fund to collect money from Zionist Jews to give to an organization of that type, and we do not need Im Tirtzu to tell us that.

http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2010/02/new-israel-fund-supports-anti-zionist.html

I couldn't have written this better myself if I tried. How do you think this relates to rightwingers like Shepherd or Phillips?

And do you agree or disagree with Isseroff, and if so, why?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
20.  I have a very fundamental disagreement with the view...
Edited on Fri Feb-05-10 01:21 PM by LeftishBrit
that what one says or doesn't say about the state (whether Israel, the UK or any other state) should be restricted on the grounds of whether it might be used by someone to delegitimize the state. Actual classified state secrets are of course another matter; but I refuse to keep quiet about Blair's misdeeds because someone might use it to condemn my country unfairly or *even* because the Tories might use Blair's misdeeds to get back into office. I will attack the Tories and their views, but I will not 'close ranks' with the Blairites for the sake EVEN of defeating the Tories.

I suppose by exactly the same principle, you do have a right to quote right-wingers if you choose. However, the fact that a right-winger thinks something would for me be evidence *against* it, not for it; so that it is not an effective way of convincing me of anything. And Robin Shepherd *is* a right-winger; it is pretty clear from his own articles, and from his role in the Henry Jackson Society, not just his support for Melanie Phillips.

I would not quote any of the people you mention to you in support of any argument, as I know this would be similarly counterproductive in convincing you of anything. I would not be likely to quote Finkelstein anyway, and I have hardly ever even *read* Ben White (two articles in my life, I think - one of which I remember finding quite objectionable), let alone be likely to quote him.


'Melanie Phillips is without doubt a RW, bigoted nutjob so it would be good to know why Shepherd is so enthusiastic about her.'

Probably because he too is a RW bigoted nutjob; though more in an old-fashioned Cold Warrior/ culture warrior sense, without Phillips' anti-secular obsession.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. but do you agree with Isseroff's main point - to separate the politics from the facts?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I don't see where he's really saying this...
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 03:02 PM by LeftishBrit
what he seems to be arguing is that it mainly depends on the *aim* of the organization: i.e. whether it is malicious toward Israel, or seeks to 'destroy' it, etc.

Obviously, factual accuracy is all-important; but Isseroff is here saying that 'it is a fact' that 'these organizations' (e.g. Adallah and Zochrot) are out to 'destroy Israel'. It is not a fact. It may be argued by some (not by me), but they do not express such a wish in their charters. It is a fact that destroying Israel is part of the original *Hamas* charter - but not in the charters of these organizations, and yes, I have looked them up. So it is Isseroff's *opinion* here, and not a fact.

To be clear, I like Isseroff overall, and think that Israel would be a better place with people like him in charge; but in this particular case he is engaging in the same sort of polemic as those who accuse leftist or antiwar organizations of being 'pro-terrorism'.

And to be frank: some of the organizations, that you quote as supporting your views, do let politics stand in the way of facts. I am thinking in particular of accusations by NGO Monitor and others that human rights organizations *only* focus on real or imagined abuses by Israel, and don't bother with criticizing Iran; Saudi Arabia; China; Russia and Georgia, etc. In fact, while this may be true to a degree of the UN, it is not true of human rights organizations in general: when I have examined their sites, they generally devote *more* attention to these other issues, especially China and Iran, than to I/P issues.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-30-10 03:44 PM
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10. New report shows anti-Semitism in Europe at highest level since WWII
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 07:07 AM
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11. I strongly oppose Zionism, but...
This is awful. The Holocaust did happen and was a horrific tragedy.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. What's awful, and who's denying the Holocaust happened?
It's certainly not the author of the OP....
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