Opposing the digital pogrom

[Violet_Crumble]

Last week, the Foreign Press Association in Israel circulated an e-mail to its members containing a Reuters article entitled “Foreign reporting depicted as stupid and condescending.” The article related to the Ministry for Public Diplomacy’s campaign calling on Israelis to counter anti-Israel prejudice, and complained that the foreign press was personally offended by the videos on the Web site www.masbirim.gov.il.

Surely not, I hear you say. Those foreign journalists – who daily dish out an unhealthy helping of material critical of Israel, denouncing its democratically elected government’s policies, and some accusing its defense forces of war crimes – should certainly be able to take a bit of criticism directed at them.

In all honesty, the videos were in no way meant to offend the press, who I am quite certain are able to recognize satire when they see it. Yet, when they paint a picture so different from the reality in the eyes of Israelis, and with such little regard for their point of view, what do they expect?

Being depicted as “stupid and condescending” as the Reuters article suggests, is not the nicest of punches, but it certainly beats being portrayed as baby eaters, Nazis and ethnic cleansers, as some in the international media has often inferred. Similarly, what of the “gullible European audiences” the article insists are inherent to the sketch? Is the press really decrying the suggestion that they influence those back home to whom they speak?

It is no coincidence that in countries where the media are most hostile to Israel, there is greater anti-Israel and anti-Semitic sentiment in public discourse. Moreover, this becomes even more incongruous when placed in that all-important missing factor – context. The foreign media complain of being offended by Israeli government satire, yet there is a deafening silence on the coercion, threats and violence they face from the Palestinians, especially in Gaza.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=170128

[Jim Sagle]

1. Excellent article. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[Violet_Crumble]

2. No worries. I figured moronic dribble like that would appeal to someone out there n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. I don't drink, and I doubt very few in this forum would agree with the sentiments of that article

[oberliner]

16. That's very rude and nasty of you

Also I think you meant to write "drivel" - or was the error just another example of your quirky writing style?

[Violet_Crumble]

19. No, actually it wasn't. Unlike you, I'm not attacking a specific poster...

And you think wrong, as per usual. It's a shame you appear to have nothing better to do than follow me around making petty jabs...

[Violet_Crumble]

5. It's pretty easy to see the author is a Likudnik...

Apart from having been a spokesman for the IDF, and apparently having called the foreign media crybabies who act as a figleaf for Hamas during OCL, he also announced his candidacy to run for Likud. It's interesting that at least one DUer has some affinity for his views...

[Jim Sagle]

17. Truth is truth no matter its source.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Yeah, shame that guy didn't speak any at all n/t

[Jim Sagle]

48. Lame.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Yeah, that pretty neatly sums up the article...

Thanks for putting it in a nutshell like that!

[Jim Sagle]

74. Actually it sums up your entire body of work on DU.

[Violet_Crumble]

75. No, it doesn't, but it really does sum up the mindless spew in that article perfectly...

:)

[Jim Sagle]

78. If mindless = thoughtful, masterful, and conclusive, we can agree.

:beer:

[Violet_Crumble]

79. No, mindless spew = mindless spew... n/t

[Jim Sagle]

80. Ooh, look...a tautology.

:boring:

[shira]

6. Great article! Here's an important quote from it...

"Yet, when they paint a picture so different from the reality in the eyes of Israelis, and with such little regard for their point of view, what do they expect?"

That about sums it up.

Anyone truly interested in conflict resolution has, at the very least, to consider the views of the vast majority of Israelis. And the fact of the matter is that most Israelis have become tone-deaf to a lot of critical press that is not based on the day-to-day reality that Israelis live. If this 'criticism' is aimed at influencing Israelis, the International press is doing a really piss poor job. It's expected that PRESSTV reports in an irrational, hyperbolic, and dishonest manner. Not so much the rest of the Western International Press.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. I figured you'd be along quickly to drool over the raving of that Likudnik...

Even though you bolded that bit, it's still completely moronic. Someone needs to inform that guy that he's not the eyes of Israelis and I sincerely hope that not many Israelis see things through the same eyes as him...

on edit: and I just noticed that bit you added on edit after I'd already replied to yr post. I don't know why you'd think that this guy's opinions are those of most Israelis. My understanding was that most Israelis aren't Likudniks nor are they filled with hatred of foreigners like he is. I'm also not sure why yr setting yrself up as some sort of authority on what Israelis think when yr an American...

[shira]

8. Juvenille debate tactic (anyone who likes the article must support Likud)

Imagine if I wrote that you drool over the rantings of some Hamasnik.

Lame.

Actually, the author of the OP does speak for most Israelis, Zionists, and Jews - you certainly do not. An example being the claim that Israel deliberatedly targeted civilians in Gaza and therefore did not act in self-defense. That's a libel that no Israelis take seriously, from B'tselem to Rabbis for Human Rights to Breaking the Silence. This article speaks for the vast majority of Israelis. Tough shit if you don't like it.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Keep it honest. I didn't say that at all...

I don't tend to drool over the rantings of any Hamas people, so you'd be lying if you said I did...

The author of the OP doesn't speak for most Israelis, Zionists or Jews. What a totally idiotic thing to say that he does. Israelis, Zionists and Jews are like all other people and there's a wide variety of opinion among them. And I've never claimed to speak for most of them. Unlike you, who seems to have appointed yrself some sort of Voice Of Israelis. Is that why you pretended in a thread last night that pelsar agreed with what you said? After all, he's an Israeli, and the vast majority think just like you, right? ;)

Israel has deliberately targetted civilians in Gaza, so it's not libel. If you think it is, sue me...

[shira]

10. yeah, okay

"Is that why you pretended in a thread last night that pelsar agreed with what you said?"

No pretense. If you want to know, simply ask him. :)

"Israel has deliberately targetted civilians in Gaza, so it's not libel. If you think it is, sue me...

The claim that Israel did not act in self-defense and planned to target and punish the civilian population is a claim that leftist groups like Btselem, BTS, and RHR reject. It's a claim widely reported around the world that no Israelis take seriously. A perfect example that corresponds to the OP.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Hey pelsar! Did you read that thread last night?

The mods have deleted the entire thing, but Shira was arguing that Westerners have to build a state for the Palestinians, who aren't capable of doing so. If you as she insists agree with her, then how do you justify going mad on pro-Palestinian posters when you think they're acting as though the Palestinians aren't capable of doing anything for themselves?

Sorry, but I'm still trying to get my head around you sitting there last night and saying something along the lines of 'yes, Shira, my friend. You are right and you speak on behalf of us Israelis! Go get that Hamas-loving hater of Jews!' ;)

[shira]

12. Pelsar has written previously here about Westerners helping Palestinians achieve civil/human rights

..before a 2-state solution is achieved & before Gaza becomes Iran, when it's too late and the people are doomed to suffer like Iranians.

And you're still wrong about the OP and how it resonates with most Israelis, Jews, and Zionists.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Ah, so he didn't read what you said last night and agreed with you on it?

I'm confused now...

Do you realise how ridiculous it is to sit there and act as though you can speak on behalf of most Israelis, Jews and Zionists. You can't go around projecting yr own views onto the vast majority of any group of people and pretending yr speaking on behalf of most of them. I'm part of one of those groups and you and that Likudnik author of the OP most certainly do NOT speak on behalf of me...

[shira]

22. What's confusing about this? Pelsar has written frequently about the need for Westerners to help

...Palestinians fight for human/civil rights before 2-states is a reality and it's too late (like Iran now). He wrote that the Gaza example shows that an Israeli withdrawal that leads to Hamas rule (or Fatah) will not lead to Palestinians enjoying the full civil rights package - which dims the prospects for long and enduring peace.

And in case you're not aware, I'm in constant contact with Israelis here in a very liberal and Jewish Boston area. It's well known Israel is being portrayed as something its own citizens (and Jews who visit there and know the I/P situation intimately) do not recognize.

You were shown before that Israel's most leftwing HR organizations do not believe Israel systematically and deliberately murdered Gazan civilians. I'm not sure why this isn't registering with you. This is but one example showing that what is being portrayed about Israel is nothing like what Israelis see with their own eyes or know by firsthand experience.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Because it appears you've been dishonest yet again...

Did Pelsar talk to you about 48 hours ago specifically about what you'd said in that thread? Because you gave the impression that he had, and now yr backing off from taht.

I'm not interested in what you claim pelsar believes. You've got a track record of being less than honest when it comes to saying what other people believe, so why you think anyone would take you seriously is beyond me.

I couldn't give a fuck who yr in contact with. You can't go round pretending that you can talk on behalf of all Israelis and that they all think like you do about the conflict. That's the sort of complete stupidity I used to see in anti-choice women who insisted they were talking on behalf of all women.

I haven't been shown anything, apart from being shown delusions of grandeur from the Voice Of All Israelis, not that whatever it is that yr claiming to have shown has anything to do with me pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that Israel did deliberately target civilians during OCL...

[shira]

27. No dishonesty at all - once again it appears you're attributing some view to me I don't hold

I've been very clear about the need for real democracy and civil/human rights in the W.Bank all along and so has Pelsar.

And I never said I talk on behalf of all Israelis and they all think like me. That's an easy strawman for you to knock down.

You were shown several times quotes from Yael Stein and Jessica Montell of B'tselem WRT Israeli intent during OCL and how they, like the vast majority of Israelis, disagree with the slanderous accusation that Israel ordered the deliberate murder of innocents in Gaza. Did you forget already?

[Violet_Crumble]

29. You made out that pelsar had agreed with what you'd specifically said in that thread....

And then you change yr tune to him not having read it or said that to you at all. You have a terrible habit of misrepresenting what other posters believe, so can you knock off trying to speak on behalf of a DUer who unlike you is someone I like, trust, and who adds value to this forum....

You've been carrying on in post after post about how all Israelis think this or that, so you are trying to speak on behalf of them...

I recall a quote shown totally out of context that didn't prove anything of the sort. Not that it has anything to do with me pointing out to you the blatant fact that Israel did target civilians during OCL. Focus on what I'm saying for a change. I don't give a shit what you think someone else thinks. It's not slander nor libel to point out that civilians were deliberately targetted, btw...

[shira]

31. I was very clear. You're wrong, so I'm not sure why you're blaming me for your confusion.

And I never wrote about how "all" Israelis think this or that, so once again you're accusing me of something I didn't say or think.

And I took nothing out of context. Here are the quotes again...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x299129#299388

While they believe investigations are necessary and that terrible things occured, they do not believe - as it appears you do - that there was some government policy ordered from the highest echelons to deliberately murder innocents.

================

On edit:

Montell clarified with the following:

"It must not be the case that the only yardstick to measure Israeli behavior is whether or not there was a willful, targeted attack on Palestinian civilians and civilian infrastructure. This dramatically lowers the bar and basically plays into the government’s hand..."
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/btselem-questions-whether-gaza-destruction-was-systematic-without-military-justification.html

I couldn't agree more with her. The accusation is so absurd that it demands a lot of attention that should be used instead to focus on whether crimes were committed or whether commanders could have done things better, etc...

[Violet_Crumble]

32. No, you weren't. You made out that pelsar had agreed with what you'd specifically said...

And you did make out that yr able to speak on behalf of Israelis, Jews and Zionists. All anyone has to do is reread yr posts in this thread...

You take just about everything out of context. I don't know what to attribute that to, but whatever it's due to, it's quite annoying to have you doing it constantly in a forum that's supposed to cater to at least semi-literate people....

Again, I don't give a shit what you think anyone else thinks. It's a FACT that Israel deliberately targetted civilians in OCL.

in reply to yr stealth edit, here's what Jessica Mondell had to say about OCL that is a fair bit more than a few words taken completely out of context...

'Jessica Montell of B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, sent the following note re the Goldstone Report:

In response to your recent post - "War on Goldstone now deploys human-rights orgs and, you guessed it, the Holocaust." I was also struck, indeed horrified by the government’s decision to link its reponse to the Goldstone report with Holocaust Day. But I write now to respond to your remarks about the quote of our Research Director in the New York Times.

We all know the extent of the destruction in Gaza: homes, mosques, schools, as well as infrastructure like chicken coops, flour mill, sewage treatment. B’Tselem has documented this – as well as the now most urgent problem that the siege still prevents rebuilding all that was destroyed. The more complicated issue is whether this destruction was systematic – i.e. willful, premeditated destruction of civilian targets with no military justification. Building this case depends not only on the extent of the damage and suffering, but on the motivations and objectives of the Israeli military. This is one of the issues that must be examined by an independent inquiry – and one with the power to cross-examine Israeli military officials and make them provide evidence to back up their claims, which Goldstone was obviously not able to do.

The quote of Ms. Stein was the result of a two-hour conversation with the journalist, most of it focused on the inadequacy of Israel’s investigations to date. While Ms. Stein was quoted accurately, this is a very small part of our views on the Goldstone report and Cast Lead, and not what we would chose to emphasize at this point.

As I believe you know, B’Tselem has voiced extremely harsh criticism of Israel’s conduct – including grave suspicion of war crimes. It must not be the case that the only yardstick to measure Israeli behavior is whether or not there was a willful, targeted attack on Palestinian civilians and civilian infrastructure. This dramatically lowers the bar and basically plays into the government’s hand, whereas we demand respect for the full spectrum of IHL and human rights obligations.

B’Tselem has invested tremendous resources over the past year to research and publicize the extent of the civilian harm caused during Israel’s military operation in Gaza last winter and to hold Israel accountable. B’Tselem also provided extensive assistance to the UN fact-finding mission headed by Justice Goldstone – escorting them to meet victims in Gaza, providing all of our documentation and correspondence, and meeting the mission in Jordan. Much can be said about the very lengthy, detailed report submitted by the mission, and about the UN process it set in motion. The most important message to promote now – and one on which B’Tselem agrees whole-heartedly with the Goldstone report – is that Israel must conduct a thorough, independent inquiry into all the allegations that have been made.

Sincerely,

Jessica Montell

Executive Director

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/btselem-questions-whether-gaza-destruction-was-systematic-without-military-justification.html

[shira]

33. I wrote what Pelsar had articulated here at DU in the past, so he does agree with me

And the fact is Montell and Stein of B'tselem aren't convinced at all that OCL was based on the government's decision to intentionally murder innocents. I'm not sure why this presents such a problem to you.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. You specifically said that Pelsar agreed with you on what you'd said...

You made out he'd talked to you about what you specifically posted. And when I expressed some surprise that he'd have agreed with what you'd said in that post, you told me to go ask him. You went out of yr way to make out he'd read that post and had voiced agreement with it. Now yr turning round and saying that he didn't, so that is really dishonest...

I've already said I don't give a fuck what you think other people think. What I give a fuck about is the FACT that Israel did deliberately target civilians during OCL. Try to focus on that for a change instead of going on about what other people think...

And just in case you missed it the first time, here's what Jessica Mondell thinks totally in context and not in a few words snipped out of a larger context...

'Jessica Montell of B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, sent the following note re the Goldstone Report:

In response to your recent post - "War on Goldstone now deploys human-rights orgs and, you guessed it, the Holocaust." I was also struck, indeed horrified by the government’s decision to link its reponse to the Goldstone report with Holocaust Day. But I write now to respond to your remarks about the quote of our Research Director in the New York Times.

We all know the extent of the destruction in Gaza: homes, mosques, schools, as well as infrastructure like chicken coops, flour mill, sewage treatment. B’Tselem has documented this – as well as the now most urgent problem that the siege still prevents rebuilding all that was destroyed. The more complicated issue is whether this destruction was systematic – i.e. willful, premeditated destruction of civilian targets with no military justification. Building this case depends not only on the extent of the damage and suffering, but on the motivations and objectives of the Israeli military. This is one of the issues that must be examined by an independent inquiry – and one with the power to cross-examine Israeli military officials and make them provide evidence to back up their claims, which Goldstone was obviously not able to do.

The quote of Ms. Stein was the result of a two-hour conversation with the journalist, most of it focused on the inadequacy of Israel’s investigations to date. While Ms. Stein was quoted accurately, this is a very small part of our views on the Goldstone report and Cast Lead, and not what we would chose to emphasize at this point.

As I believe you know, B’Tselem has voiced extremely harsh criticism of Israel’s conduct – including grave suspicion of war crimes. It must not be the case that the only yardstick to measure Israeli behavior is whether or not there was a willful, targeted attack on Palestinian civilians and civilian infrastructure. This dramatically lowers the bar and basically plays into the government’s hand, whereas we demand respect for the full spectrum of IHL and human rights obligations.

B’Tselem has invested tremendous resources over the past year to research and publicize the extent of the civilian harm caused during Israel’s military operation in Gaza last winter and to hold Israel accountable. B’Tselem also provided extensive assistance to the UN fact-finding mission headed by Justice Goldstone – escorting them to meet victims in Gaza, providing all of our documentation and correspondence, and meeting the mission in Jordan. Much can be said about the very lengthy, detailed report submitted by the mission, and about the UN process it set in motion. The most important message to promote now – and one on which B’Tselem agrees whole-heartedly with the Goldstone report – is that Israel must conduct a thorough, independent inquiry into all the allegations that have been made.

Sincerely,

Jessica Montell

Executive Director

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/btselem-questions-whether...

[shira]

35. No, I never made out like Pelsar read what I just wrote and told me he agreed

As for Stein and Montell of B'tselem, anyone who reads what they wrote - in context - can see for themselves they don't believe the Israeli government ordered the deliberate murder of innocents in OCL. Like most Israelis, they believe bad things happened but that those bad things were not the result of a government decision to punish, target, and murder innocents. The articles in which they're quoted are very clear.

So that's not what I think. That's what they say they think.

I'm not sure why this is so problematic for you. I would think that you would at least acknowledge and respect the views of Israel's leading leftwing HR advocates. Looks like you totally disagree with them - and by extension most Israelis - on this particular topic.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. You most definately did. In future, speak for yrself and don't bring rational pro-Israelis into it..

I've posted twice now in total context what Jessica Montell has to say, and what she has to say makes much more sense than the nonsense you claimed.

Yet again, yr trying to make out that you know what most Israelis think. You don't, unless Israelis have a polling button that they press when you email them a question...

I actually do respect Israel's leading human rights advocates, something that you definately don't do, given yr constant attacks and smears on them during yr time in this forum. Just because I respect them doesn't mean I have to agree with every word that gets said on everything.

[shira]

37. No, that's what you say I did.

And you're right - you did quote Montell in total context - but once again she wrote...

"I was disturbed by the framing of Israel's military operation as part of "an overall policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population for its resilience."

That's pretty damned clear.

She also wrote...

"The more complicated issue is whether this destruction was systematic – i.e. willful, premeditated destruction of civilian targets with no military justification. Building this case depends not only on the extent of the damage and suffering, but on the motivations and objectives of the Israeli military. This is one of the issues that must be examined by an independent inquiry – and one with the power to cross-examine Israeli military officials and make them provide evidence to back up their claims, which Goldstone was obviously not able to do."

She doesn't go as far as you and admits she can't make such a judgment without the facts. Facts which you believe exist.

Finally, she wrote...

"It must not be the case that the only yardstick to measure Israeli behavior is whether or not there was a willful, targeted attack on Palestinian civilians and civilian infrastructure. This dramatically lowers the bar and basically plays into the government’s hand, whereas we demand respect for the full spectrum of IHL and human rights obligations."

And that all but proves she doesn't agree with your slanderous POV at all.

As for her colleague at B'tselem, Yael Stein wrote...

"I do not accept the Goldstone conclusion of a systematic attack of civilian infrastructure, said Yael Stein, research director of BTselem. It is not convincing."

Anyone with basic reading comprehension skills can see that these two leaders of B'tselem do not believe the government of Israel ordered the deliberate murder of innocents. They believe bad things happened but not due to orders from those highest in command.

It's silly for you to deny what they explicitly wrote and said. Only true-believers would deny what they have clearly articulated.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. That's exactly what you did. I wouldn't have been so surprised otherwise...

Speaking of basic comprehension skills, you've totally lost track of what it is I said was a fact, or either you don't care what I actually said. I didn't say anything about a systematic policy, I said that Israel had deliberately targetted civilians during OCL. It's not slanderous to point out that fact, and like I said if you think it is, then sue me...

I actually do respect Israel's leading human rights advocates, something that you definately don't do, given yr constant attacks and smears on them during yr time in this forum. Just because I respect them doesn't mean I have to agree with every word that gets said on everything.

And how many times do you have to be told that I don't give a shit what you think anyone else thinks. Focus on what I said. Yr obsession with going on about what other people think as some sort of 'argument' against what I think really is silly...

[shira]

39. You have a history of misrepresenting what I've written and this is no different

But at least you've written twice now that...

"Just because I respect them doesn't mean I have to agree with every word that gets said on everything."

It appears you have finally acknowledged that these leading leftwing HR advocates in Israel do not agree with the way Israel has been portrayed to the rest of the world. And this corresponds to the OP. In fact, you'll have a very difficult time finding a significant number of Israelis who agree with this slanderous portrayal of Israel.

QED.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Actually, I don't, so stop the lame 'but you do it toooo!' routine...

And stop telling me that I've acknowledged things that I haven't, or that I've said things that I haven't said. I dont' care whether yr behaviour is down to a lack of intelligence or so much zealotry that yr blind when it comes to what others are saying, but it's getting incredibly tiring that yr doing it so constantly...

It is kind of cute how yr trying so clumsily to use B'Tselem as some appeal to authority when you've done little but smear them and slag them off in the past....

And as you showed in yr other post, you've actually got no idea what it is that I said was a fact, so jumping up and down and calling what I did say slanderous is yet another exercise in silliness...

[shira]

41. you have a history of deliberately misrepresenting my views

For example, that thread in which you lamely accused me of supporting bigotry (jewish girls not being able to date non-jewish boys) when in fact I argued from the start that I'm against statutory rape. I realize you don't like me very much but it's quite pathetic of you to deliberately and hypocritically assign viewpoints to me that I don't hold. Hypocritical in that you do this all the time, quite intentionally, and then you hop around from thread to thread accusing others of the same.

Lame.

And now you're backing down from your claims. You don't agree with B'tselem all the time now. Great. But here you go again obfuscating and denying that you disagree with Montell and Stein on the accusation of Israeli intent to murder civilians. Your dishonest evasive maneuvering is getting quite old. We're all here left guessing just what it is you really meant WRT disagreeing with B'tselem, just as we're all relegated to guessing what exactly you mean by the FACT "that Israel did deliberately target civilians during OCL..." (your words).

You're chasing your own tail and looking quite ridiculous as a result.

My advice to you is to quit digging yourself into a deeper hole.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Actually, I don't, so stop the lame 'but you do it toooo!' routine...

And stop telling me that I've acknowledged things that I haven't, or that I've said things that I haven't said. I dont' care whether yr behaviour is down to a lack of intelligence or so much zealotry that yr blind when it comes to what others are saying, but it's getting incredibly tiring that yr doing it so constantly...

It is kind of cute how yr trying so clumsily to use B'Tselem as some appeal to authority when you've done little but smear them and slag them off in the past....

And as you showed in yr other post, you've actually got no idea what it is that I said was a fact, so jumping up and down and calling what I did say slanderous is yet another exercise in silliness....

[shira]

46. I provided a clear example where you surely do, so there's no point denying it or...

...ridiculing me or accusing me of some cheap debate tactic.

As for the OP, despite your efforts to derail via flaming, I've demonstrated by example (Israeli intent during OCL) that Israel is definitely portrayed in a manner that simply does not reflect reality or resonate with most Israeli citizens who actually know what goes on there (the B'tselem directors, RHR, BTS and other leftwing groups disagree with the libel that you view as fact). You're simply incapable of dealing with the evidence, and that's why you resort to the only thing you're good at -namely, insults.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. No, you didn't...

Will you stop ignoring what gets said to you in replies?

And stop telling me that I've acknowledged things that I haven't, or that I've said things that I haven't said. I dont' care whether yr behaviour is down to a lack of intelligence or so much zealotry that yr blind when it comes to what others are saying, but it's getting incredibly tiring that yr doing it so constantly...

It is kind of cute how yr trying so clumsily to use B'Tselem as some appeal to authority when you've done little but smear them and slag them off in the past....

And as you showed in yr other post, you've actually got no idea what it is that I said was a fact, so jumping up and down and calling what I did say slanderous is yet another exercise in silliness....

[shira]

50. using Btselem as an appeal to authority

More revealing is your utter disregard for their opinion on Israel's intent during OCL. I believe this goes to show that you're not at all ideologically compatible with Israel's leftwing, though you tout yourself as leftwing. I posted quite a few articles written by Israelis with solid leftwing credentials (Halbertal, Forman, Kretzmer, Landau, Montell, Stein) who wrote about Israeli intent during OCL and their opinions do not mean anything to you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x292775

I could understand if you believed out of ignorance that most of Israel's leftwing agreed with you WRT Israeli intent during OCL, but now that you know and you don't give a shit....

:shrug:

I would think that you, as a self-proclaimed "leftwinger", would wish to work with and not against Israel's leftwing activists.

:wtf:

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Using them as an appeal to authority is a bit of a clumsy tactic...

Firstly, as I've pointed out several times now, you don't appear to understand what my view is. You incorrectly claimed I'd said it was a fact that there was high level Israeli policy to deliberately target civilians, when I'd said nothing of the sort....

I don't disregard B'Tselem's opinion on anything. What I said is while I have the utmost respect for them and their work, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them on everything they say...

I don't recall making any claim that the Israeli left agreed with me on anything. If I did, please show me where I said it...

I'm not just a self-proclaimed left-winger. I actually am a left-winger, and I find it quite ridiculous that you appear to believe otherwise...

[shira]

55. using them as well as other influential leftwingers goes to show a consensus opinion WRT how Israel

is falsely portrayed to the outside world, in a way that Israelis themselves don't recognize.

Thus, the OP is on target using just this one example of many.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Using them as an appeal to authority is a bit of a clumsy tactic...

Firstly, as I've pointed out several times now, you don't appear to understand what my view is. You incorrectly claimed I'd said it was a fact that there was high level Israeli policy to deliberately target civilians, when I'd said nothing of the sort....

I don't disregard B'Tselem's opinion on anything. What I said is while I have the utmost respect for them and their work, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them on everything they say...

I don't recall making any claim that the Israeli left agreed with me on anything. If I did, please show me where I said it...

I'm not just a self-proclaimed left-winger. I actually am a left-winger, and I find it quite ridiculous that you appear to believe otherwise...

[shira]

58. LOL! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

59. I am hoping that you will read and address what I actually say in my posts...

Not sure what's so funny about what I posted, though...

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Just addressing yr stealth edit...

It's a fact that civilians were deliberately targetted in Gaza. Like I said, if you think it's libel, sue me...

And yet again, you aren't the voice of all Israelis, so knock off pretending they all agree with you on things...

[oberliner]

15. Five IDF probes find 'operational errors,' but no intentional attacks on civilians in Gaza op

There were no intentional attacks on civilians during Operation Cast Lead, the Israel Defense Forces found in five separate investigations into alleged international law violations.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080463.html

[Violet_Crumble]

18. And? I was talking about facts, not what the IDF claims n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. IDF claims IDF did not commit war crimes? N.T.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. you forgot your sarcasm tag - you had me going there for a moment

until I realized you were joking - That is funny though.

perhaps you should have posted it something like this:



IDF investigation :eyes: clears IDF of charges of war crimes :sarcasm:



/

[oberliner]

42. IDF to release new findings defending Gaza war strike

The Israel Defense Forces will soon release new findings about a strike near the Ibrahim al-Maqadma Mosque during last year's Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, in an effort to refute the Goldstone Report's claim that it targeted civilians.

The report cited this incident as key evidence for its accusation that Israel deliberately targeted civilians during the operation.

The new evidence is based in part on Hamas and Islamic Jihad reports which show that more than half the casualties in the strike were armed members of these two groups.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1154343.html

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. I guess if the IDF says that's what Hamas' and Islamic Jihad's reports say, then it must be true

who needs the Goldstone report?

[shira]

23. I'm not sure what you mean by 'civilians were deliberately targetted in Gaza'.

Either that means...

a) Israel planned to intentionally do this, they ordered their soldiers to carry out these plans, and OCL wasn't self-defense

or

b) Some of Israel's soldiers committed war crimes but it wasn't because they were following orders from high up in the government

[Violet_Crumble]

26. It means that civilians were deliberately targetted in Gaza...

It means the same as me saying that civilians were deliberately targetted by suicide bombers. Most people would have the comprehension skills to understand what is really a very straight-forward statement.

[shira]

28. so once again, I'm not sure whether you think the deliberate murder of Gazans was state-sanctioned

....or whether during OCL some IDF soldiers went renegade and murdered innocents against orders from their superiors.

"It means the same as me saying that civilians were deliberately targetted by suicide bomber"

Even this statement calls for more clarity. The suicide bomber could be acting alone or he could be following orders from the highest authorities in the government. Big difference.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Well, you just keep on going with that total confusion...

Like I said, anyone with basic comprehension skills understands what civilians being deliberately targetted means...

[shira]

49. no, I get it....to you, no military strike is justified if a civilian is hurt

For example, if Gaza rocketeers are shooting Kassams from a densely populated Palestinian neighborhood into an Israeli city, you consider that any strike by the IDF that leads to any civilian deaths (even if 20 Hamas and 2 civilians are killed) is nothing but premeditated murder and a war crime proving Israel deliberately targets civilians. Intent doesn't matter, whether the IDF knew of civilians in the area or thought it was only Hamas and no civilians. It's cold blooded intentional murder and a war crime.

I understand you well.

You're incapable of distinguishing between first degree murder, second degree, or accidental killing. Maybe it's just the Israeli govt that doesn't deserve such distinctions, but it doesn't matter. There is no difference to you between a legal or illegal order to strike in self-defense.

And that reasoning is pretty fucked up.

--------

The fact is most Israelis are rational and can distinguish between intentional murder and accidental killings. Rational people require evidence of intent to murder innocents before accusing the offender of intentional murder. It's why from the most rightwing to the most leftwing of Israelis, nearly all reject the conclusion that Israel deliberately set out to murder innocents in Gaza. In fact, you'll find it hard to find many Israelis at all who agree with your twisted viewpoint. I challenge you to find any credible Israeli activists who believe what you do.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. Stop putting words in my mouth, Shira...

I did not say anything of the sort. What I did was tell you that deliberate targetting of civilians means just that. You claimed to be confused about what it means, and seeing how I believe it's self-explanatory and can't help you out anymore, I'm not sure what yr thinking yr achieving now.

[shira]

54. yes, Israel deliberately targeting civilians means that whether or not Israel knows civlians will be

hurt or killed in a legal strike against Hamas, if even one civilian is hurt or killed then that counts as "Israel deliberately targeting civilians".

:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I asked you to stop putting words in my mouth...

I haven't said anything of the sort, and you speaking on behalf of me is getting very annoying...

[shira]

60. I remember all the silence from you and others here WRT Pelsar's questions in the past

Namely, if Kassams fly into Israel then just what is a proper response by Israel so that civilians aren't "targeted"...

[Violet_Crumble]

61. I've answered pelsar's question, not that it's got anything to do with you putting words in my mouth

I'm not sure why yr bringing pelsar into this, btw...

[shira]

62. if you did answer, how is it really any different than the way I describe it?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. I answered him long before you were at DU...

And if as you were claiming I didn't answer it, I'm not sure why you were inventing what my supposed answer was...



What's any of this got to do with yr post claiming you were confused about what 'deliberate targetting of civilians' meant? All you've done is put words in my mouth and make out I've said things I haven't said...

[shira]

64. and it appears that since you say you don't believe Israeli govt policy was to intentionally kill

civilians, then you believe instead that any act of war against an entity embedded within a dense population is "targetting civilians".

If you were of another opinion, you'd have said so by now.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. It doesn't appear like that at all...

And given the way you've constantly put words in my mouth despite me telling you what I actually believe, I no longer waste my time telling you what my opinions are...

[shira]

66. just did a little search and here's something I found which confirms all I'm writing WRT yr views

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=120138&mesg_id=120343

Namely, that Israel can do practically nothing to defend their own civilians in the event Kassams and Katyushas are flying into cities.

If anything practical is done, it's a war crime because innocents get killed when they are "targetted intentionally" while Hamas uses them as shields.

QED.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. You don't donate to DU so how do you manage to do a search?

And yet again yr putting words in my mouth. I have NEVER said that Israel can do practically nothing to defend itself. You didn't even post a link to the earlier thread where I had answered pelsar's question!

Anyway, how on earth has this 'discussion' been twisted so that instead of being about OCL, it's now about a question of pelsar's about Sederot?

[shira]

68. the Israel Lobby can do anything it desires, including searching DU w/o donating

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=120138&mesg_id=120713

That's a link with your impractical solutions. UN Peacekeepers? Evacuate towns? :eyes:

The fact is ANY response by Israel that results in civilian deaths is in your view Israel intentionally targeting civilians.

Lame.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. That's a stupid and bigoted thing to say.

I asked you how you managed to search DU without donating. There was no need to get totally offensive in yr reply. I'd still like to find out from you how you managed to do a search without donating? Did someone who does donate send the link to you?

The fact is ANY response by Israel that results in civilian deaths is in your view Israel intentionally targeting civilians.

Stop telling me what my views are. That is NOT my view at all!

[shira]

70. Wow. That was bigoted and totally offensive?

:eyes:

It was a simple google search:

site:democraticunderground.com pelsar rockets violet_crumble

These methods are in the Hasbara handbook, index 3, line 17. :)

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Of course it was bigoted and offensive!

Are you really going to sit there and argue that the title of yr post wasn't bigoted and offensive? Or are you yet again trying to clumsily accuse me of being antisemitic?


Why would you say something so disgusting? I don't know why yr getting so obnoxious when all I asked you was how you managed to do a search of DU without donating to DU. btw, now that you've finally told me how to do it, thank you. I won't be donating to DU if I'm still here next year as the only reason I have donated in the past is to use the search function, which is the reason I asked you the question in the first place...

[shira]

72. mentioning the Israel Lobby is bigoted and offensive?

Is the book "The Israel Lobby" bigoted and offensive in your view?

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Saying the Israel lobby can do anything it desires certainly is...

I asked you why you'd say something like that and you've refused to answer. I don't know why, or what yr purpose was in posting something so damn stupid...

If you need me to explain to you why what you said was offensive, I can do that for you. Let me know...

[azurnoir]

81. googling DU user names can lead to all kinds of interesting

discoveries trust me I know

[Jim Sagle]

77. Wolfie is NOT HAPPY with you letting that info out of the bag.

Your penalty will be lessened if you guess which Wolfie. ;)

[Violet_Crumble]

76. I've put together something for you to read and bookmark for future reference...

It's a run-down on my views that you've taken it upon yrself in this thread to misrepresent. I'm setting my views out very clearly for you so there's no confusion, and if in future I see you accusing me of anything different again, I'll refer you to this post until you stop doing it...

Deliberate targeting of civilians

I’m opposed to the deliberate targeting of civilians, no matter who it’s done by.

I don’t believe that if a civilian is killed that it must have been from the deliberate targeting of civilians. Deliberate targeting to me includes things such as rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel and instances where the IDF have fired knowing that civilians are present and at risk of being hit.

There are also situations where civilians are hit due to sheer negligence and lack of concern about the risk to them. While not victims of deliberate targeting, the negligence involved in their deaths makes it something to be condemned.

The Israel Lobby

For the record I have never said or believed that the pro-Israel lobby in the US wields undue power or control. I actually think such a sentiment is idiotic and totally illogical and can come across as antisemitic. I detest the largest lobby group, AIPAC, as it's far too right-wing and warmongering for my liking, but strongly support the newer liberal J-Street...

[Jefferson23]

43. Russell Tribunal on Palestine finds EU states guilty of breaches of international, internal EU law

03.03.2010 | Russel Tribunal on Palestine

The first session of The Russell Tribunal on Palestine (RTP) has found European Union member States to be in Breach of International and internal European Union Law with respect to the protection of Palestinian human rights.

The jury, comprised of eminent legal experts and human rights defenders heard two days of reports from international experts and witnesses on the issues of:

- the principle of respect for the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination;

- the settlements and the plundering of natural resources;

- the annexation of East Jerusalem;

- the blockade of Gaza and operation “Cast Lead”;

- the construction of the Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory;

- the European Union/Israel Association Agreement.


The RTP found that Israel was violating the Palestinian right to self determination as enshrined in The Declaration on the granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples (A/Res. 1514(XV), 14 Dec. 1960) and all United Nations General Assembly (NGA) resolutions that have reaffirmed the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination since 1969 (A/Res. 2535 B (XXIV), 10 Dec. 1969, and, inter alia, A/Res. 3236 (XXIX), 22 Nov. 1974, 52/114, 12 Dec. 1997, etc);

Furthermore, by occupying Palestinian territories since June 1967 and refusing to leave them, Israel violates the Security Council resolutions that demand its withdrawal from the territories concerned (SC/Res. 242, 22 Nov. 1967; 338, 22 Oct. 1973)

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/israel-on-trial/