U.N.: Israeli Barrier Cuts Into W. Bank

[eablair3]

U.N.: Israeli Barrier Cuts Into W. Bank

U.N. Report Says Israel's Planned Security Barrier Will Carve Off 14 Percent of West Bank

The Associated Press

JERUSALEM Nov. 11 — The planned path of Israel's security barrier will carve off 14 percent of the West Bank, trap 274,000 Palestinians in tiny enclaves and cut off another 400,000 from their fields, jobs, schools and hospitals, according to a U.N. report released Tuesday.

The contentious string of walls, razor wire, ditches and fences has further enflamed already high tensions between Palestinians and Israelis. The United States has also criticized the barrier's planned route deep into the West Bank, saying it could harm efforts to set up a Palestinian state.

snip

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031111_1143.html

______________________


After getting being "given" approximately 50-52% of Palestine in 1947, Israel has slowly been taking the rest as Ben-Gurion had stated back then that they would. Israel's actions are designed with the purpose of taking the land, as much as possible, if not all.

They have whittled the Palestinians down to 22% from approximately 50% and they have sought even more of that 22% as they subsidize many extremist jewish settlers in moving in and building housing settlements and cities on the Palestinian's West Bank and Gaza. Then, they say how "gracious" they were in only agreeing to take 11% as part of a resolution of issues, and now they are taking another 14% by building this Wall, according to the U.N. I believe that the 14% is only the amount that Israel seeks to take with this Wall. If one considers that amount of the West Bank that Israel seeks to make "Israeli controlled territory", the percentage would be much higher. (see the Gush Shalom map of the Wall below.)

Gee, .. I wonder what would happen in a neighborhood in the U.S. if a foreign power marched in and started taking the resources, the land and the water and started building housing settlements and roads, that could only be occupied and used by the foreign power's subsidized population?

********

For any who haven't seen it, here's a map of the Separation Wall from http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/index.html :

[ThorsteinVeblen]

1. Truly outrageous and disgusting

I can't believe there is anyone who can defend the actions of Israel.

Unbelieveable. Every time I see it.

[eablair3]

4. what's happened to this board?

I admit I don't check in here too much (or at least as much as I used to), as I stick mostly to LBN and GD, with a little Media board reading as well.

You say that you find it hard to believe that anyone could defend Israel, but there sure seems to be several here on this board. What's hapopened to this board? It seems like almost every thread that is started is pro-Israeli or anti-arab or anti-palestinian? And, they seem to be started by the same two or three posters? By my count, with 40 threads on the first page, I counted over half of them by 2 posters? What's up with that?

[legin]

14. Don't worry eablair3

I've noticed the same thing ;-)

Down here is getting pretty close to a mixed board.

I've suggested renaming it from 'the basement' to 'Little Democratic Footballs'.

Very dangerous place for left-wing pro-Palestinian newbie posters to start posting. One bit the dust recently after 23 posts.

[Forkboy]

2. The wall will stand as a monument

to the shortsighted ineptitude of two peoples.

[papau]

3. 22% is not part of AP or ABC story because it assumes a lot

This not part of AP or ABC story

"After getting being "given" approximately 50-52% of Palestine in 1947, Israel has slowly been taking the rest as Ben-Gurion had stated back then that they would. Israel's actions are designed with the purpose of taking the land, as much as possible, if not all.

They have whittled the Palestinians down to 22% from approximately 50% and they have sought even more of that 22% as they subsidize many extremist jewish settlers in moving in and building housing settlements and cities on the Palestinian's West Bank and Gaza. Then, they say how "gracious" they were in only agreeing to take 11% as part of a resolution of issues, and now they are taking another 14% by building this Wall, according to the U.N."

mainly because the original land to be split between Palestinian and Israeli -per the League of Nations mandate - included Trans-Jordan (now Jordan). The Israeli's have a case that the West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel.

Conversly, the 48 split gave Israel much less land - and the Arabs would have a case that they are losing land - except for the fact they have never agreed that Israel - 48 borders or any other borders - has a right to exist (the Oslo accord did not conceed a right to exist as a Jewish state since it demanded the right of return). So one is talking about wartime territory, and a giving to the Palestinians of some of that territory. Granted Taba and Geneva anticipate Israel getting Green line plus adjustments of 3.5 to 5.5% of the west bank (with a small piece being added to Gaza under PA) - and I think that is the right answer -

But the 22% is from what prior agreed line - and as an aside - it assumes that the Eastern wall is built to make the PA area into Bantustans.

[eablair3]

6. You are engaging in mistruths & mischaraterizations

You are engaging in misstatements, mistruths, and mischaratizations, as well as deception in your effort to defend Israel.

You say that the 22% is not from the ABC News article. Where did I claim that it was from the ABC News article? I posted the first portion of the article, and then I posted the word "snip" to indicate that I cut off the article, per the rules here. I then posted the link to the full article per the rules.

I then posted a horizontal line and proceeded to comment on the article and the situation.

You state the 22% is not accurate:

"mainly because the original land to be split between Palestinian and Israeli -per the League of Nations mandate - included Trans-Jordan (now Jordan). The Israeli's have a case that the West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel."

Not true. We are concerned with the U.N. (not the League of Nations) as that is the body that was manipulated and bribed into supposedly thinking it had the right to split up a people and a country. Under the division by the U.N. Israel was given a little over 50% of the territory of Palestine (that consisted of the today's Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza), despite the fact that Jews consisted of a very small percentage of the population (somehting like 6% but not sure exactly on that exact percentage). The non-Israeli Arabs that were born there and lived there were "given" appproximately 48% of the land divided by the U.N., iirc. Not to mention that Israel got the prime coastal land for the most part.

Israel took approximately another 26% of Palestinian territory by attacking in 1967. The 22% represents the total of Palestine (that was divided in 1947-48 by the U.N.) that is left for the non-Israelis that were born, raised and lived there. It is generally accepted as the number by all sides. Israel now seeks to take portions of that 22% -- this article indicates that Israel seeks to take 14% of the 22%. The number is actually much higher. After all is said and done, how much of the original Palestine that was divided by the UN do you think that the non-Israeli, Arab Palestinians will be left with?

You then say:

"... the Arabs would have a case that they are losing land - except for the fact they have never agreed that Israel - 48 borders or any other borders - has a right to exist (the Oslo accord did not conceed a right to exist as a Jewish state since it demanded the right of return)."

That's inaccurate. Yasser Arafat, with Bill Clinton present, lead the Palestinian legislative body, in voting for a change in the Palestinian constitution and laws to recognize Israel's right to exist. It was done on camera. Arafat and the legislative members all raised there hands to signify the vote. There are films and videos showing this historic vote. Demanding the right of return, which is part of international law, and which Israel is flaunting, has nothing to do with recognizing Israel's right to exist.

The only party that has taken land by war is Israel. In 1967 Israel attacked and took huge amounts of land, including the Sinai, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights. There is no serious or even credible position other than that Israel attacked and was the aggressor in 1967 when it took these lands. Menachem Begin and several top military officials in Israel, even admitted it later.

[papau]

8. Looks like you may have forgotten a few items.

Balfour accord on Ottoman split-up is the reason for Israel - and that was League of Nations. Indeed all the borders in the area come from that.

Standard procedure at DU is to <snip> to show parts of article were left out.

A "Comment" or some other method is used to convey when the additional words are your own - the method you use is whatever you feel gets the job done - but in the above post I had yo reference the original article to find out your comments were your own.

In the 70's the PA voted that all of the land was PA - and their maps showed this - and they agreed in writing that any deal with Israel was to be only a stepping stone to that final objective. Oslo had Arafat saying nothing in agreed to until all is agreed to, and demanding "right of return" - meaning the end of Israel as a Jewish State. The PA did indeed recognize Israeli right to exist - and with a wink and a smile they meant an Arab Israel.

Who attacked who is in doubt re 1967 only in theory - Israel did advance first, but Egypt had let it be known to all that asked that it was going to war in a few days and had issued orders to move out.

I grant you that the arabs have never won land ("taken land" - but only because they lost) - but then the Ottoman's did- didn't they? And Greeks and Balkans and Armenians lived for 300 years with a "child tax". I doubt you will find many Arabs that do not know that there was evil done to the non-moslem during those 300 years.

The right of return if a part of international seems to have been waived in the 40's as the Germans were sent walking home - over 10 million folks walking hundreds of miles from homes that had been in the family for 300 to 1000 years. Then there is the population transfers of the 20's through the 40's. Only the PA right of return is treated as if God's law would be violated if it did not happen.

[tinnypriv]

11. Right of return

The right of return if a part of international seems to have been waived in the 40's as the Germans were sent walking home - over 10 million folks walking hundreds of miles from homes that had been in the family for 300 to 1000 years. Then there is the population transfers of the 20's through the 40's. Only the PA right of return is treated as if God's law would be violated if it did not happen

That's because the relevant protocols of international law were adopted before the flight/explusion of 1948.

They didn't exist when the other cases you mention happened.

And there isn't a "PA right of return", anymore than there is, say, a "KLA right of return".

It's just the right of people to return to their homes if they were not engaged in hostilities, period.

[The Magistrate]

13. The League Of Nations Cannot Be Left Out, Mr. Blair

It was because, under the international law the League administered, Palestine west of the Jordan was held by England as a Mandate from from the League, that involved the United Nations in the matter. The acts and assigns of the League devolved to the United Nations on its formation. Thus, it was the United Nations that was the real possessor of Palestine under international law at that time, not England, which was a mere agent of first the League, and then the later body. Neither manipulation or bribery were required for the United Nations Secretariat or General assembly to be convinced it had rightful jurisdiction over the disposition of its property. Nor was manipulation or bribery much of a material feature of the General assembly vote. Both the United States and Soviet Union supported the partition; it was a genuine consensus vote.

[tinnypriv]

5. That map is slightly outdated now (nt)

[eablair3]

7. how so?

you'd think that one who comes on and posts and makes the accusation that the map is "slightly outdated" would explain how it is outdated or even post what they think is an "updated" map?

Instead all we have is: "That map is slightly outdated now (nt)"

An accusation and assertion with no backup. The map is from Gush Shalom, an Israeli organization. The link is provided to the map. It's the current one from their site.

[tinnypriv]

10. A few points

1. That isn't an "accusation", it is a fact.

2. It was meant to be helpful, so get off my case.

3. It isn't originally from Gush Shalom, it is a map adapted by Gush Shalom from the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot.

4. The fact it is the current map on their site is irrelevent, they just haven't updated their images yet. If you ask them, they'll tell you the exact same thing I'm going to in (5), below.

5. This is the latest, official map released by the government of Israel:



('Who's In, Who's Out, The Final Route of The Fence', Ma'ariv, 25/10/2003, http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/568/206.html)

FYI, the captions state that:

* There is a freeze in the north due to a court case brought by 40 Palestinians in al-Gharbiyyah (they lost their land).

* The Ariel salient section was extended by 100km in order to include more Samaria settlers. Security sources believe the fact it runs contrary to the Green Line is a 'security mistake'.

* There will be a "gap" in Jerusalem because the US objects to including the settlement of Ma'ale Adummin in the fence "at this time". The implication is that if this objection is dropped, this section will be completed. Also, there are logistical problems due to the large Jeru-Jericho road.

* Double fence sections are being built in order to "protect Ben-Gurion" from Palestinian fire. The fence goes 9km into Pal territory on the second side due to this.

--

Now, as noted, you can see that there are slight differences between this and the previous maps.

Hence, the originals are "slightly outdated".

I'd prefer not have to type all this every freaking time I make a post on the subject, and forgive me for saying so, I think the snarky shit is uncalled for.

[The Magistrate]

12. We Really Must Draw Up Scorecards, Mr. Priv

It might save some misunderstandings....

[papau]

16. Magistrate - good to read your posts - a pleasure always :-)

I see where the poor children that died in Israel from the bad baby formula died due to 90% of the B1 vitamen being missing in the formula sold by Remedia, but made by subcontractor Humana. All this was announced today by a VP for Heinz, who it turns out has partial ownership in Remedia.

Given the above facts, there should be someway the media can blame John Kerry!

In any case, as always, thanks for posting. I wish I could write as well as you and Will!

:-)

[legin]

15. Just to be annoying

I hadn't seen that before so thankyou eablair3 for being snarky. :P

:evilgrin:

[legin]

17. anyway i better get back to reading the Beano

that Euro Trash thread is starting to annoy me, especially as I have problems with my browser so I can't really open it, although I did open it enough to find out that it was friggin' Dershowitz again. That guy has really built up some black marks with me.

As a piece of information anything above 40-50 post threads can be regarded as 'legin free zones' which may well a relif to some people.
:evilgrin:

[dArKeR]

9. U.N. Slams Israeli Security Fence - CBS

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/25/world/main580028.shtml

[Resistance]

18. of course

CBS calls it a "security fence" when they are perfectly aware that it's an apartheid wall meant to steal more land.