'Day of rage': Hamas calls for terrorist attacks inside Israel

[oberliner]

While hundreds of Palestinians demonstrated and threw stones at security forces in a number of places in east Jerusalem to mark a "Day of rage", the Palestinian Authority announced a general alert.

Hamas' acting parliamentary speaker Dr. Ahmed Bahar called on the Palestinian organizations to strike Israel with terrorist attacks in its central region in response to the "desecration of al-Aqsa."

Palestinian police were deployed in towns and cities in the West Bank in case the riots spilled over into PA territory. Forces also patrolled the seam line, but no disturbances have been reported.

A source within the PA security services said to Ynet, "The security forces are acting almost as if it was an emergency situation, with the aim of maintaining order." He said the PA understood the sensitivity of the situation, but wanted to retain control.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3863432,00.html

[aquart]

1. Gotta love Hamas.

They've got one way of dealing with anything and they damn well stick to it.

[oberliner]

5. They are nothing if not consistent nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Isn't this the reason for Israel's actions in Al-Aqsa?

[oberliner]

6. Are you aware of what the Temple Mount is in relation to Judaism? nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. Puh-leeze Oberliner. You are going to sit there with a straight face and tell me incitement isn't

the goal here?

[oberliner]

11. Do you know what the significance of the Temple Mount is in Judaism?

If not, I would encourage you to find out.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. I figured you didn't have the guts to answer me.

[oberliner]

13. I was the one who asked you a question (twice now) that you have refused to answer

How about you answer the question I asked you initially and then I would be happy to answer yours?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. You are such a game player. You know I'm a seminary graduate. I read the Old Testmanet in Hebrew.

You know full well I understand the significance of the temple mount.

I means so much that Sharon had to use it to set off the second intifadah in 2000.

Care to answer my question?

[oberliner]

15. You read the Old Testament in Hebrew?

I did not know that. You actually can read and understand ancient Hebrew? That is impressive.

I definitely think you are right about the provocation.

My point, though, is that Jerusalem, specifically the Old City, contains sites that are extremely significant to Jews, Muslims, and Christians - and those sites are often one and the same.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. Do you see this act as inciteful?

My Hebrew was biblical and it was 20+ years ago... but I can make out signs at least. My husband used to tease me about being CIA, lol.

[oberliner]

17. Which act in particular?

What exactly is the incident that has sparked the "day of rage" ?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Oops! My bad! I forgot; your policy is never to criticize the Israeli gov't on these boards.

Guess this is no different.

Have a nice day.

[oberliner]

19. It is a simple and geniune question

The Hamas spokesman said that Israel had tried to "desecrate Al-Aqsa" - what exactly was the nature of this attempted desecration?

[Vegasaurus]

22. And when have you ever criticized the Palestinian government, including Hamas?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. Very regularly, actually. Take a look if you don't believe me. N.T.

[LeftishBrit]

26. Actually PM does criticize the Palestinian government, and prefers a third party.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. That's true, but Veggie is correct in stating that I rarely criticize Hamas, or any

resistance on this forum. When I do criticize the PA it's because they are no longer interested in ending the occupation.

Sadly, we can't discuss resistance on this site, but for me, I am not interested in blaming the victims of a violent, imperialistic miliary occupation for not resisting in the correct way. I think that notion is absurd.

[LeftishBrit]

31. I probably can't say much on the site without getting the thread locked...

but I disagree that one cannot blame 'victims... for not resisting in the correct way'. There is a lot of debate everywhere, and with regard to all groups, about what are (a) the most moral and (b) the most effective forms of resistance. I don't see that Palestinians can be the one group exempt from that. Nor can Jews or any other group.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. I would love you to point me to substantive debate. I think there

are plenty of thoughts about what one *cannot* do... but there is certainly no book for how to effectively resist a violent military occupation that is hell bent taking your land for perpetuity.

It's unfortunate that this can't be discussed here, because for me as a progressive activist, it's the heart of the matter...

and I certainly never thought I'd type the words "...Veggie is correct..."

[oberliner]

33. How was Al-Aqsa desecrated?

The Hamas spokesman said that Israel had tried to "desecrate Al-Aqsa" - what exactly was the nature of this attempted desecration?

[shira]

57. good luck getting an answer to this one --- this is all a game to some people

There's something about those who criticize others’ views, often viciously, but who are not courageous enough to offer their own views as honestly as those they attack. For them, discussions like these are a kind of online game. One way to tell the difference between the two motivations is that one group is very careful to be sure they are understood and that they understand what others say. The other group often hides their beliefs and the meaning of what they say as far as possible so others can’t attack them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. Moreover...what really rubs me the wrong way about those discussions is..

I get the distinct feeling that the concern is always about minimizing damage to the powerful.. ie., how can Palestinians "resist" in such a way that Israeli life isn't disrupted too much....

I guess I don't believe it's morally OK for one group to be on the permanent receiving end of violence because it would be immoral for them to react violently in resistance. That's what I feel is constantly suggested for Palestinians. They can't respond violently, but no one is stopping the daily violence against them. The violence of the status quo is acceptable; violence in response is never so? I truly don't get it.

At the end of the day, I'm most about what is effective. Sometimes violence can be effective. it was in Lebanon It was in driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan. But it's not in this conflict for multiple reasons.

[LeftishBrit]

38. I don't think that violence on either side is acceptable...

especially when it is randomly directed at civilians.

In what sense is a Thai migrant worker - the most recent casualty of a militant group - 'powerful' or perpetuating violence against Palestinians?

I don't think the status quo is acceptable; I don't think the occupation is acceptable; I don't think that the blockade of Gaza is acceptable; I don't think OCL was acceptable. But I still don't think that justifies random violence. Or that random violence is even going to work, for that matter.

It is not a matter of not 'inconveniencing' Israel; it's a matter of not killing and maiming innocent people. Just as opposing the bombing of Gaza isn't about 'supporting Hamas' - it's about not KILLING lots of people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Both sides have been trying violence for a long time; it clearly hasn't worked - maybe it's time for something else.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. I don't think it's going to work either. That's why I don't support it.

But I think more broadly, to say that an occupied people never has the right to pick up arms to defend itself is just wrong.

As for the status quo, our not liking it doesn't CHANGE it.

Many in Israel seem quite happy to allow it to go on forevr.

[oberliner]

34. Why do you refer to the poster as "Veggie" when the name is a reference to Las Vegas?

Seems oddly childish.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. Guess I always thought it was related to being a vegetarian.

[oberliner]

37. I think another poster made the same mistake in the past and was corrected

But continued to use the name "Veggie" in spite of the correction, just to be irritating.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand - what are your thoughts on the Day of Rage and the possibility of a new intifada?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. Is being a Las Vegas-inspired dinosaur really more dignified than "Veggie?"

Regulars get nicknames. Be glad we're kinder than the PSU folks.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

41. I suppose that depends on how you define "intifadah."

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Are you referring to me? If so, why are you saying something that's not true?

I didn't make a mistake, plus I took the time to explain to you why I shorten people's names, and it had zero to do with being irritating as yr very well aware.

I really have to wonder why you get so defensive when it comes to such a trivial thing as that when it's about a DUer who has a track record of posting comments that are very bigoted, yet never find the time to say anything in this forum when they make those comments.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. Asking others to focus on minutia is a classic tactic. nt

[oberliner]

45. I've asked a direct question to you about the OP several times and you have not responded

I am more than happy to discuss the topic raised by the OP. There is no need to focus on any minutia. There is no "tactic" involved. Just wanted to correct what turned out to be an honest mistake. I'm eager to move on and discuss the issue at hand.

To that end, here, again, is the question:

The Hamas spokesman said that Israel had tried to "desecrate Al-Aqsa" - what exactly was the nature of this attempted desecration?

Do you, as a Muslim, feel that Al-Aqsa has been desecrated? Do you feel that there been an attempt to desecrate it? If so, how and/or what was the attempt and what is the nature of the desecration?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

46. I asked you how you define intifidah.

That is a dirty word for Zionists, and it surely is not for me.

I support any call to loudly and vocally protest all of Israel's acts of aggression, the land theft, destruction of groves of olive trees, home demolition, forcible removal of Palestinians from their homes -- ancestral or otherwise -- and any further settlement. I call for Palestinian civil revolt, for the PA to stop its implementation of Israel's criminal occupation, and for a total stoppage of cooperation with the forces of occupation. I support the call to people and nations of goodwill everywhere to BDS.

Now let me ask you: Do you, as a Jew, feel diminished if this work is not done TODAY, in the midst of delicate negotiations.

[oberliner]

47. Ok

Well, you did not really respond to my question and I do not really understand why.

I understand the position that you've outlined in that paragraph but here is what I am asking:

Was Al-Aqsa desecrated in some way? If so, how? And what action constituted that desecration?

To your question, I do not feel diminished by anything that you've described.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

48. I respectfully suggest that you are missing the forrest for your intense concentration on a single

tree.

The issue is 40+ of years of living lives as half-humans. Doesn't take a big match to light the fire.

Some may be most moved by what they see as desecration. I think Israel's unconscionable behavior toward human beings is reason enough.

The fact is, you know full well why people are so angry. But instead you choose to imply that these Palestinians are some kind of weirdo religious fanatics that ol' Obie just can't comprehend.

Interesting strategy.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. Another thought on "Days of Rage"

Record!
I am an Arab
And my identity card is number fifty thousand
I have eight children
And the nineth is coming after a summer
Will you be angry?

Record!
I am an Arab
Employed with fellow workers at a quarry
I have eight children
I get them bread
Garments and books
from the rocks..
I do not supplicate charity at your doors
Nor do I belittle myself at the footsteps of your chamber
So will you be angry?

Record!
I am an Arab
I have a name without a title
Patient in a country
Where people are enraged
My roots
Were entrenched before the birth of time
And before the opening of the eras
Before the pines, and the olive trees
And before the grass grew

My father.. descends from the family of the plow
Not from a privileged class
And my grandfather..was a farmer
Neither well-bred, nor well-born!
Teaches me the pride of the sun
Before teaching me how to read
And my house is like a watchman's hut
Made of branches and cane
Are you satisfied with my status?
I have a name without a title!

Record!
I am an Arab
You have stolen the orchards of my ancestors
And the land which I cultivated
Along with my children
And you left nothing for us
Except for these rocks..
So will the State take them
As it has been said?!

Therefore!
Record on the top of the first page:
I do not hate poeple
Nor do I encroach
But if I become hungry
The usurper's flesh will be my food
Beware..
Beware..
Of my hunger
And my anger!

~Palestinian national poet, Mahmoud Darwish

[Dick Dastardly]

53. Discussing the actual claims and subject matter in the OP is not missing the forest.

Hamas called for a "Day of rage" to strike Israel with terrorist attacks in response to some act of "desecration of al-Aqsa."

Its perfectly reasonable to focus on the actual subject of the OP and ask what that act of desecration of al-Aqsa was.

On the other hand its not reasonable to dismiss a such question on the subject of the OP as you did. Especially if you want your post to be taken seriously and credible. Its a pathetically obvious tactic to dance around the question.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. Direct question to you: how do you respond to Israel's intention to continue to settle East

Jerusalem.

Do you support this?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. Please share your views on Israel's ongoing settlement expansion.

You certainly do your share of questioning. Time for some answers.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

59. Crickets Oberliner? Please... share your views on settlement expansion. How does one who professes

belief that an independent Palestine is the answer feel about Israel's ongoing settlement expansion?

[oberliner]

44. Nope not referring to you

That particular poster in question is no longer a member of this site.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part n/t

[shira]

56. you're not alone in not blaming Hamas and the PLO for much of anything

The determination not to hold Palestinians or their leadership morally accountable for terrorism or their commonplace antisemitism is a repugnant form of neocolonial mentality in which the Palestinians are patronized.

As opposed to, for example, Northern Ireland in the early 1990s (proxy bombing in Derry). This suicide bombing was widely denounced and ultimately stopped by the Irish nationalist community.

[LeftishBrit]

27. Oberliner does criticize the Israeli government; and was very much against this lot winning.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

60. You liberal Zionists might criticize Bibi,

however, I don't see much of a difference between Bibi, Olmert, Lipni, etc. Bibi is more honest about intentions -- that's about it.

[oberliner]

61. Do you see a difference between Bush and Obama?

Personally I think there is as much of a difference between Livni and Netanyahu as there is between Bush and Obama.

I supported Livni whole-heartedly in the last election in her attempt to defeat Netanyahu. I railed against the possibility of a RW coaltion being formed and supported a Livni-led LW coaltion and made that support known on this board.

I dislike the Netanyahu administration as much as I disliked the Bush administration.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Very rarely and never from the perspective of how it affects Palestinians...

Unfortunately Oberliner is like many other 'supporters' of Israel and now 'this lot' have won, spends an inordinate amount of time defending the decisons and actions of the govt and rarely criticises it.

[oberliner]

63. I've never defended any decision or action taken by the current Israeli gov't

That is a complete lie and I would appreciate if you would apologize for saying so.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. You do it all the time...

When yr not going into 'Look Over There!' mode to distract attention away from policies and actions of the Israeli govt, yr defending them (and if you want me to go back and bring up specific examples, let me know and I'll be more than happy to do it), or flat-out refusing to say whether or not yr opposed to Israeli expansion in East Jerusalem. Unlike when you attacked me for not using the 'suitable' level of outrage when I spoke out against another poster comparing Israel to the Nazis and refused to apologise, I'm in a position where what I said about you wasn't a lie. If I was mistaken in what I said, I'd be a better person than you and actually apologise, but I'm not mistaken...

[Shaktimaan]

20. I honestly don't think that...

the visit in 2000 was to incite the Palestinians. I understand how it's portrayed, of course.

But I think it was all about internal politics. Sharon was demonstrating his policy as it differed from Barak's. The fact that it incited the Palestinians worked in his favor politically, but I doubt it was the impetus for the trip.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. What do you think about this current situation? nt

[Shaktimaan]

23. in terms of what? np

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. You've answered my question. Thanks.

[Shaktimaan]

29. give me an effing break.

I'd love to hear what you extrapolated from my question.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Please. No interest in playing games with you. If you don't think Israel is acting to inicite,

you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Shaktimaan]

52. Of course I am...

but then, I never said that. Did I?
You asked a pretty ambiguous question and I asked for clarification. I don't appreciate it when people make assumptions about my opinions.

Let's face it. If that question was all you needed to get your question "answered" then you obviously asked it rhetorically in the first place.

[LeftishBrit]

3. There's no situation so bad that a bunch of extreme religious-righties can't make even worse.

[demosincebirth]

4. We'll show them, again!

[Alamuti Lotus]

7. So nice of the PA to act as the first line of cannon fodder defense for the occupyers *nt

[oberliner]

9. What are you talking about?

First of all there was no "cannon fodder" and in fact the PA police was not involved with any fighting at all according to this article.

Would you prefer the West Bank not have a Palestinian police force?

[proteus_lives]

8. As expected from Hamas

[pelsar]

54. what was it all about....: zippo..nothing new.

if things are too quiet...people going about their business, taking care of the family, making a living etc and the news papers get filled up with the usual domestic violence, criminals and reality shows, thats no good for hamas and friends.

a "day of rage" can be any day of the year. There is always construction going on in jerusualem, be it phone lines being laid, that will endanger the foundations of the near by mosque, or church could be a lighting pole where artifacts might be found where some VIP took a crap 1,000 years ago-it doesn't make a difference what the excuse is, hamas and friends need the attention so they "found one." In case one missed it, the Al Aska mosque it seems has been endangered and desecrated since 1967. (similar to the genocide claim..just keep repeating, some will believe it).

intifada i was grass roots
intifada II had arafats and friends behind it

intifada III has had several attempts to get it started, but its neither a grass roots effort nor do the PA politicians have arafats control + their attempt to get the israeli arabs involved is not going to work. (They have made it clear, that they have a lot to complain about, but their preferences are clear.)

all in all, nothing new, just some "kids" needing some attention.......a few kassams for "solidarity" from gaza, a few rocks....it will happen again in a month or two.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. The sad thing is... I'm sure there are many here who are disappointed that there

wasn't a violent explosion...