Rightist MKs: 'British are dogs, who are they to judge?'

[Purveyor]

Amnon Meranda
Published: 03.23.10, 13:36 / Israel News

Members of Knesset were outraged with Britain's accusations against Israel over the assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai and its threats to expel an Israeli diplomat from London over the stolen passports affair. MK Arieh Eldad said on Tuesday that the British were behaving hypocritically and compared them to dogs.

Eldad also gave an interview to the British Sky network, and said that a British diplomat should be expelled in response, "maybe the military attaché". British media has been covering the crisis since Tuesday morning.

When asked of the comparison, Eldad said, "I was just quoting what was said in Latroun 62 years ago. I think the British are being hypocritical and I do not wish to insult dogs here, since some dogs show true loyalty. Who gave the British the right to judge us on the war on terror?"

The National Union MK addressed the Passover haggadah, as passed down to him from his father, the late Lehi leader Yisrael Eldad. "When my father held the seder in Latroun before 500 prisoners he read Chad Gadya (One goat song sung at Passover) to the British prison commander. And the question was posed: If the goat is righteous, then the cat is evil, then the dog is righteous, then the stick is evil – and in the end it turns out that, heaven forbid, God Almighty is evil. What is the answer he gave to the Briton? The answer was that 'the goat may be righteous, the cat may be evil, but you are the dog. You Briton. Who gave you the right to judge?'"

Eldad's fellow party member Michael Ben-Ari was asked if he agrees with the comparison and said, "Dogs are usually loyal, the British may be dogs, but they are not loyal to us. They seem to be loyal to the anti-Semitic establishment.

MORE...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3866929,00.html

[Jefferson23]

1. So they are anti- Semitic dogs, lol . What an asshole.

[stranger81]

8. Wow, I never would have seen that comment coming.

:sarcasm:


There's apparently no other argument in their arsenal besides this old chestnut.

[LeftishBrit]

2. Woof woof

Well, there are some Brits who *would* have quite a lot in common with Eldad. One of them is a bloke called Nick Griffin.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. One thing they don't have in common is that Eldad is in government, though.

The biggest difference between the two groups - and, I think, a big difference between Britain and Israel - is that YB, UTJ etc are powerful parts of the governing coalition, whereas no-one in mainstream British politics would touch the BNP with a bargepole, and it would be political suicide for them to do so.

That's partly due to first-past-the-post vs PR, but I think it's also part of the two countries differing prevalent attitudes to far-right bigotry.

[LeftishBrit]

6. My real point here (not made very clearly) was that Eldad resembles the antisemtic right in Britain

to a far greater extent than the Brits that he condemns.

I think that if we had pure PR the BNP and similar nuts *would* have representation in parliament, as they do in the EU parliament. The proportion might not be as high as in the current Israeli Knesset, but it would be there.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Absolutely agree, but while they'd be in parliament, they wouldn't be in government.

If we had PR, the BNP would probably have at least a dozen MPs, but (I both hope and believe) none of the mainstream MPs would want anything to do with them.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

12. I think Laxton is a perfect example.

Laxton's and Eldad, Ben Ari's etc outbursts were fairly similar (although Laxton is only a civil servant, speaking in civilian life, not a member of the government speaking in his official capacity).

Laxton caused a national outcry (quite rightly) and was convincted and fined (which I think was arguably wrong, on grounds of freedom of speech, but I can certainly understand). I don't know whether he's still employed as a diplomat, but he'll certainly never hold elected office.

Eldad and Ben Ari don't appear even to have raised many eyebrows, let alone generated substantive criticism or opposition.

So I think that the comparison clearly illustrates the difference in attitutes to bigotry between the two countries and their governments; thanks for pointing out Laxton as a good comparison point.

[LeftishBrit]

19. In fact Ben Ari has been in some trouble, though not enough

He was arrested over an incident at a pro-settler demonstration; and when he challenged his arrest on the grounds of parliamentary immunity, the Internal Security Minister (himself pretty far right) justified the arrest on the grounds that MKs need to obey the law.

Of course, it is scary that he got elected at all.

[shira]

20. Baroness Tongue should have been replaced years ago - that doesn't speak too well for the Brits

Here's a question for you....

Which country is worse the past 60 years in your opinion, Israel or Britain? How about the last 10 years?

[LeftishBrit]

21. Could you please tell me what role you think Tonge held?

She was a member of a minority party (admittedly one that is mostly reasonable except for her) and was never a member of a government, or likely to belong to one. She does not represent 'The Brits'.

To be fair, Eldad does not represent 'The Israelis' either; but Netanyahu as leader does (as Thatcher did Britain).

I am not in the business of comparing 'which country is worse'. I am tempted to say 'right at the moment it doesn't matter, as we are America's 51st and 52nd states respectively' though that too is oversimplified and unfair. Britain is more my responsibility, though I do also have some links with Israel and with America.

[LeftishBrit]

16. None of these is exactly comparable

Rowan Laxton and Oliver Miles were never elected officials with any real power. Laxton was an obscure diplomat, who was sacked and prosecuted after an antisemitic outburst. As for Oliver Miles, I had not heard of him till this moment, and had to look him up. Turns out that he is a retired diplomat, who now has some business dealings with Libya, and made a very dodgy remark about Jews. Very offensive, but again not a powerful individual. Admittedly that there is a larger issue of many of our diplomats being of rather poor quality. Not as bad as in the places where they get their jobs by political patronage; but still too many of them are either upper class twits or would like to be.

I don't really regard Livingstone as an antisemite, any more than I regard his Tory successor Johnson, bad as he is, as a true racist. (For all I know, they may have all kinds of inner prejudices, and have daydreams about eating kittens for breakfast; but I'm talking about their policies.) The two otherwise very different men have one thing in common: tactlessness. In Livingstone's case, the allegation cam because he compared a nasty tabloid journalist to a concentration camp guard and then refused to back down when the man said he was Jewish; he did not say this *because* the man was Jewish. I don't approve of 'Godwinizing' and think that Livingstone deserved a reprimand; but I don't consider him as a hater.

Galloway is perhaps the closest to the 'loony minority party' type. He is, in fact, a minority of one, being the leader and only MP for the Respect Party. I dislike him, despite his smackdown of Coleman, because he has expressed, or at least supported others who expressed, antisemitism; because he has cosied up with Muslim Right types; and because he supported Musharraf's takeover in Pakistan. He is the sort of person that corresponds to a typical right-wing caricature of a leftist, but he is most unusual among MPs in this respect. He also doesn't do his job half the time, and e.g. was absent from Parliament to appear on Celebrity Big Brother.

There *have* been a few more mainstream politicians who have expressed antisemitism (the most notorious in recent years probably being Jenny Tonge); and rather more who have expressed Islamophobia, racism and general hatred of immigrants. But few here (outside perhaps of those linked to Northern Ireland where until recently it was very true that in Tom Lehrer' words "The Protestant hate the Catholics/ And the Catholics hate the Protestants!") quite reach the standard of Secretary Baker's "Fuck the Jews, they don't vote for us anyway", or certainly of the vile bigotry of the teabaggers, their media masters, and such politicians as DeMint and Bachmann. Though our tabloid press is certainly pretty hate-filled, especially about immigrants and gypsies.

[shira]

18. Baroness Tongue should be included too. David Hirsch believes they're all antisemites.

[LeftishBrit]

22. I wasn't denying that Laxton and Miles are antisemites

I was denying that they were elected officials, or political leaders in any way.

[Tripmann]

28. Just to let you know shira

George Galloway has successfully sued individuals who have called him an anti-semite on more than one occasion. He has faced and shot down every accusation of anti-semitism made against him.

Would you like to withdraw your accusation please, as I'm pretty sure it's not in the spirit of I/P to make false accusations of anti-semitism.

[shira]

29. start reading here...

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/archives/index.php?id=21

I realize many here think anti-Jewish bigotry died out over 60 years ago and that it wouldn't be recognized today unless it includes an armband, nasty tatoos, or skinhead haircuts - but when nasty cretins like Galloway blame modern antisemitism on Jews, call Israel a Nazi state, claim the 'Zionists' control the media, and think the world of Hamas and Hezbollah - there's VERY good reason to believe a vile piece of shit like Galloway is an antisemite.

So no, no apologies.

This is no false accusation and as a liberal/progressive anti-racist, peacenik, etc.. you should be just as disgusted at Galloway as I am.

[Tripmann]

30. George Galloway has proven in a court of law that he is not

an anti-semite. I listen to his show every week and know what the guy is about and trust me, he is not an anti-semite.

Now, again, please withdraw your accusation against him. You have accused somebody of being an anti-semite who has been proven in a court of law to not be one. Your accusation is not in the spirit of I/P, and while internet anonymity might give you the luxury of falsely accusing whoever you wish of anything you want, you are still using DU as a platform to make false accusations about a British member of parliament.

[shira]

31. can you link to this alleged court case in which Galloway proved he wasn't an antisemite?

[Tripmann]

33. Do you really want to go down this road?

Your original post accusing various people of anti-semitism has been removed and rightly so.

[shira]

34. Here's a link to the EU working definition of antisemitism

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/antisemitism/EU-definition-of-antisemitism.htm

If I can find many quotes from Galloway that match most or all of the examples from the EU's definition, would that mean anything to you?

I'm very interested in Galloway's court case if you can provide a link.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

35. A couple of flaws in the document you link to.

One is that most of it is not a definition, it's a list of examples of things that *can* be manifestations of antisemitism. And among those things is pointing out that Israel is a racist endeavour - which certainly *can* be a manifestation of antisemitism, but equally well often isn't.

And, on the flip side, it says that "criticism of Israel on a par with that leveled at any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic - which, again, I disagree with - it nearly always isn't, but on occasion it is.

And there's the fact that it's overlong, when antisemitism can be defined in one line: "hostility to a Jew/Jews* that would not be there were they not Jewish*."



*In this case, I very definately mean "members of the Jewish people", not "followers of the Jewish religion" - hostility on grounds of the latter is in some cases entirely reasonable).

[shira]

36. So if an individual or organization employs most or all of the memes or tropes listed in the EU...

....description, it's safe to assume such a person or organization is definitely antisemitic.

Correct?

ETA

"Even after controlling for numerous potentially confounding factors, we find that anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the probability that an individual is anti-Semitic, with the likelihood of measured anti-Semitism increasing with the extent of anti-Israel sentiment observed."

http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/hirsh/David%20Hirsh%20YIISA%20Working%20Paper1.pdf

Heard of that study before? What are your thoughts?

[Tripmann]

37. Just to let you know donald,

shira has posted the EU definition before and was easily torn asunder, and will probably keep posting the cherrypicked parts of links that agree with her rather than discuss the blatant falsehood that critcism of israel makes a person an anti-semite.

[shira]

38. I've never believed that criticism of Israel makes a person an antisemite

OTT, irrational criticism employing old antisemitic tropes and double or impossible standards is another story altogether.

[Tripmann]

39. By the way shira

type 'george galloway' and 'anti-semitism' on youtube. Theres various clips of him shooting down actual anti-semities on his radio and TV show.

Seeing as though you have called him an anti-semite, you may like to provide us similar material to back up your claim i.e. quotes, clips or articles by him.

[shira]

40. I'm still waiting for a link to this court case where Galloway proved himself not to be antisemitic

I'm not all that impressed by Galloway shooting down backwards KKK following, David Duke loving, Jew hating rednecks, skinheads, and neo-nazis. Antisemitism isn't that simplistic.

As I wrote before and asked you, would it really matter if I posted quotes from Galloway that lined up with most or all the examples and tropes in the EU's working definition of antisemitism?

I posted this before...
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/archives/index.php?id=21

Did you read any of the above articles about Galloway, the SWP, and RESPECT?

[Tripmann]

41. Here ya go

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/londons-jewish-radio-station-closes-after-galloway-sues-891492.html

And before you do your little predictable "that doesn't prove he's not an anti-semite", he has sucessfully defended himself against accusations made against him of anti-semitism. We all know how it this works shira, your posts here don't actually PROVE YOU'RE not an anti-semite either. So don't embarrass yourself.

Your original post was removed because it breaches the I/P rules on calling somebody an anti-semite. But please, continue to show us all how much respect you have for this forum by continuing your acusation.......

[shira]

42. So that's it?

What do you think of the ENGAGE articles on Galloway, Respect, and the SWP?

Do you know who David Hirsch is and what ENGAGE stands for?

======

On second thought, this whole conversation is a waste of time. I recall how you recently avoided any questions about Colonel Travers' bigotry WRT his contributions on the Goldstone Report. If these posts are any indication, you're not going to be at all forthcoming about Galloway either.

You can have the last word.

[Tripmann]

43. I have been forthcoming about galloway

You have been the one who accused him of being an anti-semite (in breach of the rules) and I have given you every oppertunity to either withdraw your accusation or qualify it.

As usual you hide behind internet anonymity and use DU as a platform to defame people.

Your accusation, your burden of proof. As usual, all mouth, no trousers.

[oberliner]

11. No Geert Wilders types in the UK parliament?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. The closest you get is probably some of the Northern Ireland MPs, I think.

The flip side of that is that the Lib Dems, with considerable public support, don't have many MPs at all either. Our electoral system helps keep the nutjobs out, but it does very much entrench the 2-party system (although that's arguably a good thing, as demonstrated by e.g. Israel or Italy). The Tories have a good many nutjobs on their benches, but so far as I know none as extreme as Griffin/Wilders/Ben Ari (although they certainly have activists and voters like that).

But even in Holland, while people like Wilders can get elected, or France (where IIRC Le Pen once got 18% in a presidential election) the mainstream parties shun them.

[LeftishBrit]

17. There certainly have been: Enoch Powell, Norman Tebbit, in a slightly different way Ian Paisley

At the moment, though there are certainly some pretty nasty MPs, there is no one quite so influential *and* blatant. This may change if the Tories get in again.

Our 'Geert Wilderses' tend to be tabloid journalists more often than MPs - and probably have more power in that role than most MPs. Two noted examples are Melanie Phillips and Richard Littlejohn.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. I'm not sure Tebbit is as bad as Wilders. I certainly agree about the Tabloids, though.

Tebbit is an equal-opportunities bigot - he hates everyone who isn't white, straight, English, male, over 70 and dead - offensive but I suspect not terribly dangerous. Wilders, by contrast, is much more focussed on hating a few groups - primarily Muslim immigrants, from what I have read - which I think makes him much more of a threat.

I read the Daily Mail for a year once (it was being left in the student housing I shared). It is not an experience I shall soon forget...

If Phillips gets under your skin, I recommend reading some of Ben Goldacre's critiques of her work - I find it extremely therapeutic.

[UndertheOcean]

3. How classy

[MUAD_DIB]

5. Pray tell, what kind of animal

forges the passport of a sovereign state for the sole use of cover on an assassination mission?


And the British are anti-Semitic dogs for diplomatically objecting to this?

[UndertheOcean]

9. Thank you , Mossad is on of the dirtiest and most barbaric terrorist organizations on this Earth

It should be dismantled ... there is something called "The rule of law" that exists in civilized societies

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. The short answer is "no it isn't". N.T.

[UndertheOcean]

27. The shorter answer is "Yes, it is "

[azurnoir]

14. So will Millibrand be added to the growing list

of "bad" Jews?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

15. I take it you don't read Israeli news websites? N.T.

[azurnoir]

24. I take it you do not recognize sarcasm

:-)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. Not on the internet, no. Unless it has the dripping acid thingy. N.T.

[IndianaGreen]

32. and Arabs are rats!

The language of racism is the same in any culture and any language.