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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 08:58 AM
Original message
Israel's pull, or your push?
More and more British Jews are moving to Israel, this fact is reported on by Abe Hayeem. Perhaps, instead of arguing that the reasons predominantly middle-class British Jews are moving to Israel are the dubious tax benefits given by the Israeli government, he might want to look closer to home.

The truth is, I shouldn't be here; or rather, I shouldn't want to be here. I also wonder what it is that lead me to move to a country with a lower standard of living, bad plumbing, a corrupt political system, ineffective police service... to a country which is, in almost every way, inferior to the United Kingdom. Yet, here I am, having just accepted a job that pays less than half the salary I was paid by my previous employer in London, and on the cusp of moving into an apartment that is more expensive and smaller than the apartment I lived in in London. So, believe me, it wasn't for the financial gain; then why am I here?

<snip>

Antisemitism is not particularly prevalent on the streets of Europe, yet something is rotten in Europe's capitals when it comes to Jews. Jewish communal events and religious festivals have a high level of security protection, much greater than I have seen outside a church or mosque. Jews feel under threat in your countries that are bastions of culture and civility – and you aren't paying any attention.

Does anyone genuinely believe that it is a Zionist pseudo-colonial ideology that leads Jews such as myself to come and live in Israel? This is not the reason that I have come here, nor is it the reason of anyone I know. The existence of Israel is the symptom of the failure of both Europe and the Middle East to accept us: the inability of Europe to make Jews feel secure and the insistence of Middle Eastern countries that their Jews, by and large, depart in the wake of Israel's war of independence. It is the continuation of the campaign today that makes Jews feel uncomfortable and leave cities like London for Israel, thereby strengthening the country even more.

more...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/29/israel-immigration-middle-east
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. more from the article...
"I returned to the UK in 2004, after having served in the Israel Defence Forces, to be greeted by the mayor of my city telling me that I am the opposite side of the same coin as a suicide bomber; then I got to watch a demonstration of thousands of people declare as one that they support a group committed to the death of Jews wherever they find them. Do you really think that I am going to feel at home in that city?

So, you don't like Israeli policies towards Palestinians because the Israeli army is occupying the West Bank? Because it is depriving Palestinians of certain human rights and freedom of movement? You also dislike Israel because it is moving settlers into the land it has occupied since 1967, further removing the likelihood that those lands are going to be returned? Guess what – many Israelis, including myself, agree with you. But what I can't understand is why, instead of forging connections with Israeli groups who are working against the occupation of Palestinians, links are forged with people who are far worse than the most extreme of Israeli settlers. I can't understand how an ideology that hates human rights abuses extends to embracing a group that shows scant regard for human rights."
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't like to speak for others; and different Jews (and other minority group members)
will perceive and deal with prejudices differently.

However, my experiences have been different. Not that I have *never* experienced or observed antisemitism And there is a more general insularity and xenophobia in sections of the British community that can make any minority group member a bit uncomfortable. But not enough for me to choose to emigrate. And I have also experienced mild prejudices from some Israelis for being partly non-Jewish-Scottish; for being relatively 'assimilated'; for being secular. No doubt some other Israelis would be prejudiced if I were very religious!

Among the large number of British Jews whom I know, I have only known three who emigrated to Israel during the last 10 or 15 years: one because she married an Israeli; one because she had been unemployed here and then got a job there; and one for religious reasons.

However, everybody's mileage varies.

I do agree that *some* of the people who go to pro-Palestinian demos, or even any political demos, are less interested in the cause than in using it as an opportunity to express antisemitic or otherwise unpleasant views ('We are Hamas!' and the like). As it's difficult to vet all who attend such events to see if they are bona fide, there will always be the types who attend for the wrong reasons.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You realize many Jews in the USA are reluctant to wear anything "Jewish" in public?
I know of many observant Jews here in the greater Boston area who won't be seen in public wearing something as simple as a yarmulke. I can only imagine it's worse in Britain.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm sure that's all you can imagine...
For what it's worth, kippahs are a common sight on the streets of Cambridge, and the circular round fur hat (I thought they were shtriemels, but apparently those are only worn on Saturdays) is common in London.

That doesn't mean that there aren't Jews who avoid wearing them, of course, but I've never heard anyone mention that they do so - actual anti-semitism is not one of the more common prejudices in most of the UK (if I had to guess, I would say that prejudice against homosexuals, muslims, immigrants and blacks, in that approximate order, are, but that's pure guesswork), it's just that supporters of the settlements do their best to portray opposition to Israel as it. Sadly, there's more of it than there was ten years ago - due almost entirely to Israel's actions - but that's "more than almost none", which still isn't that much.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Sometimes it depends on level of observance - the more ultra orthodox, the more they wear....
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 12:25 PM by shira
....Jewish gear no matter what anyone says or does. Those who are more 'modern' orthodox or 'conservadox' are more likely not to wear anything that would cause any trouble.

You wrote you believe that anti-Jewish sentiment in Britain is due to Israel's actions the last 10 years. What has Israel done the last 10 years that it wasn't doing prior to 1999-2000? I'm thinking it's due more to a deligitimization and demonisation campaign more than Israel's actions (starting with Durban 2001).
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Actually I don't think that British antisemitism has much to do with either 'Israeli actions' or a
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 12:49 PM by LeftishBrit
'delegitimization and demonisation campaign'.

It is all part of old-fashioned xenophobia and insularity; prejudice against people who are 'not quite one of us'. And as Donald says, antisemitism is not the biggest type of prejudice here. I tend to agree with his list, except that I would probably put anti-immigrant prejudice right at the top.

All forms of prejudice and xenophobia tend to get worse in bad economic times, and improve relatively when times are good. The 'others' easily become scapegoats for economic misfortune. Therefore right now antisemitism is worse than in econonomically better times, but anti-immigrant prejudice is MUCH worse.

I certainly don't think that prejudice against very Orthodox-looking Jews has much to do with attitudes to Israel; Israel is not strongly associated in people's minds with the very Orthodox. I would say that unfortunately wearing the symbols of *any* religious faith, especially a minority faith (and by now in Britain one could almost say that all strongly-expressed faiths are minority faiths) can attract prejudice from those who are bigoted against those who are 'different' in any way. There is a lot more prejudice currently against those who wear Muslim headgear than against those who wear yarmulkes. That may in part reflect the respective numbers of those who wear Muslim headgear vs yarmulkes - but a lot of the cause is quite simply that the tabloids concentrate far more on whipping up hatred against Muslims (though of course if you whip up xenophobic hate, you can never be quite sure where some of it will land). At any rate, I know several people who wear yarmulkes, and to my knowledge they have not been harrassed beyond some expressions of curiosity.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I have read some IMO rather hyperventilating claims
that somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3's of the UK's Jews have "fled" to Israel because of antisemitism largely blamed on the UK's growing Muslim population, is this anywhere near true?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Not remotely
This is typical RW propaganda: simultaneously letting the local xenophobes off the hook, and finding another excuse to blame immigrants.

The Muslim population in the UK is under 3 per cent, and while there are some tensions between Muslims and Jews, most of the people who dislike Jews also dislike Muslims.

Indeed, for those who are inclined to put all the blame for antisemitism in Europe on Muslims, there are some interesting statistics. In 2009, the ADL did a survey on antisemitic attitudes in seven Europaean countries. The lowest-scoring country was the UK, followed by France and Germany. The highest levels of antisemitism were found in Hungary, Poland and Spain. On checking the population statistics: Muslims constitute 1% of the population in Spain, 0.2& of the population in Hungary, and there are almost none in Poland. One needs to look elsewhere for the main sources of antisemitism

Also, there has been no such dramatic decline in Jewish population in the UK. There are differing estimates of the exact Jewish population number, but it's around 300,000. It has gone down since WW2, but has steadied recently, and may even be slightly increasing, due to the high birthrates among Orthodox Jews. The earlier decline in population is generally attributed, not to mass emigration, but to a high rate of assimilation and intermarriage, resulting in fewer people identifying as Jews; and to a low birthrate among non-Orthodox Jews.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thank you that is what I was hoping to hear n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Could that be because
it's BOSTON which is not a city exactly known for either racial or ethnic tolerance? The Bostonian's that I have met or worked with (all of Irish Catholic background) have stunned me with the amount of open hostility if not out right bigotry they show.
Now OTOH where I live St Paul MN we have a thriving Lubavitch community and yes you do see kippah's in public but really we are a very diverse community here so it is hardly a surprise and this is despite having a Congress women who quite regularly stands up to Israel
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