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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:10 PM
Original message
1948: Palestine Betrayed
April 20, 2010
1948: Palestine Betrayed
Zionist Jews were not interlopers in Palestine. The creation of the Jewish state was not an "original sin" foisted upon the Arab world. The tragic flight of the Palestinian refugees was overwhelmingly not the fault of the Zionists. To the contrary, at every momentous junction the Zionists opted for compromise and peace, the Arabs for intransigence and belligerency.

This, in summary, is how most people once understood the Arab-Israel conflict. Today, however, as Israel marks its Independence Day, an entire generation has come to maturity believing a diametrically opposite "narrative": namely, that the troubles persist because of West Bank settlements, because of Israeli building in east Jerusalem, because of the security barrier, because of heavy-handed Israeli militarism-in brief, because of a racist Zionist imperialism whose roots stretch back to 1948 and beyond.

The new view has been shaped by a confluence of factors: unsympathetic media coverage, an obsessive focus by the UN and others on Israel's alleged shortcomings, improved Arab suasion techniques, and the global Left's adoption of the Palestinian cause. Added to the mix is the influence of Israel's own "New Historians," whose revisionist attacks on the older understanding have helped shape today's authorized academic canon.

Such attacks have themselves not gone altogether without challenge-and at least one prominent New Historian, Benny Morris, has since moderated his views. Outstanding among the challengers has been the scholar Efraim Karsh, head of the Middle East and Mediterranean Studies Program at King's College, University of London, and the author of a 1997 debunking of the New Historians entitled Fabricating Israeli History.

In his just-published book, Palestine Betrayed, Karsh zeroes in on the 1948-49 war, its background, and its consequences, in an analysis that re-establishes the essential accuracy of the once-classic account of the Arab-Israel conflict. Basing itself on Arabic as well as Western, Soviet, UN, and Israeli sources, Karsh's is corrective history at its boldest and most thorough. Elliot Jager interviewed Efraim Karsh for Jewish Ideas Daily.
==========================================================
Interesting counterpoint to some of the other views of the formation of Israel.

http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/content/detail/continue-reading-1948-palestine-betrayed

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leeloo Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you,great article.Bringing to light the Nazi connection with the Mufti
You bring to light a World War II conversation about atomic weapons between Nazi-SS chief Heinrich Himmler and the mufti Hajj Amin Husseini.

Yes. Arriving in Berlin in November 1941, and promptly awarded an audience with Hitler, the mufti spent the rest of the war in the service of the Third Reich, broadcasting Nazi propaganda and recruiting Balkan Muslims for the German killing machine. Himmler and the mufti spent hours ruminating on the absolute evil of the Jews. It was during one of these conversations, sometime in the summer of 1943, that Himmler gleefully told Hajj Amin of the Nazi "final solution," which by that time had led to the extermination of some three million Jews. He also confided the great progress made in developing a nuclear weapon that in Himmler's opinion would win the war for Germany. The mufti would never forget this conversation, boasting decades later in his memoirs that "there were no more than ten officials in the German Reich who were privy to this secret."
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. And the Irgun's overtures to the Nazis?

Seeing as what-aboutery is the number one favourite game of Israel's defenders, I figure I might as well indulge in a spot myself.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Actually, it was a remarkably poor article, and the Mufti and the Nazis have been done to death...
Not that it doesn't stop erstwhile 'supporters' of Israel giving that worn-out horse a flogging. I mean, how does that amazing discovery that you've seen bring to light affect the events in the Middle East today? Does it make the Palestinians somehow unworthy of having statehood and self-determination? And as Donald hinted at below, there were other connections with the Nazis apart from the Mufti, the most famous being the Stern Gang. There were also other lesser-known connections and contacts at various points in the war from Zionists in Palestine, and I'd be more than happy to acquaint you with some of those if you do believe that a connection with the Nazis has some affect on events in the region today...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. The Mufti was part of the Muslim Brotherhood (like Hamas now) and Arafat adored him
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 04:57 AM by shira
So the problem is with Palestinian leadership that still follows in the footsteps of the Mufti and will not denounce him or separate themselves from his abhorrent ideology.

Understandably, it's not easy for any Israeli leader - or for any Israeli citizens - to ignore this.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. If yr going to reply to my posts, try not to totally ignore what I said...
If you want to keep on flogging the Nazi-Arabs stuff, go for yr life, but don't try and pretend yr having some sort of discussion with me about it...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You asked a question, remember? And I answered you. Here's your question since you forgot....
"...how does that amazing discovery that you've seen bring to light affect the events in the Middle East today".

And that was answered in my last post to you.

Do keep up.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I didn't ask you a question, not unless you've changed yr name...
I'm already aware that you flog that Arab-Nazi thing to death, so as I said if yr going to pop up replying to posts of mine, at least reply to what I say instead of ignoring it as you usually do.

You keep on promising that you won't reply to me anymore, but you always go back on that within a short space of time.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. I figured since you asked, you needed all the help you could get. Sorry to be of service.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 06:09 PM by shira
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Eg-ptiangirl Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Shira strikes again
The Mufti was not a Nazi, Britain and France were occupying many Arab countries and he was just trying to have a relation with their enemies, it didn't even succeed.
Just like when USA helped TALEBAN to fight Communism in Afghanistan. It is not that he was a good man or not but he was not a Nazi and neither were the Arabs including Palestinians. your justification of occupation by targeting the blame from time to time on one or two historic men is laughable.


Plus You are either ignoring the fact about the real Nazis in US and many countries during that time and not the SEMITE Arabs or you are just thinking you can accuse Arabs of being Anti Semite when before 47 Arab Jews were a strong local community with the same Arab culture. Only tens of thousands of Jews went to Palestine, millions went to USA, to Canada etc and the Arab Jews didn't start to go there either, The Zionists needed to make a country even if there were no numbers enough to make it by peaceful means through a LOCAL election, chose to depend on UN and not Arabs, they needed to start a war to excel as much Palestinians as they could cause they were still more than them even after partition. So yes Palestinians were betrayed in 1948. Zionists also needed the Arab Jews and they did bad decisions for them in their countries like using some as spies, etc, the funny thing is that although Arab Jews faced discrimination in Arab countries from governments and religious groups after 48 that no one can deny you will not find an Israeli politician asking SERIOUSLY for justification cause it is just so sensitive for them because Arab Jews will appear as they were forced to join Israel and were living a normal life till late 40s and even till mid 50s, and because the information that will be revealed through honest study will be astonishing.

I suggest for you to start reading more about the conflict from different sources to know more about the situation because you often post biased UNTRUE posts. You often try to deflect the discussion to be about this and that instead of adding any useful thing. If you really care for peace and the 2 state solution as you say you will ask for strong decisions to start making the Palestinian country. If you only care about defending Israel all the time at least do it with true informations but it is really hard to justify occupation So what you are only doing is changing every thread to blame Palestinians. What you only succeed in is provoking people from the other side that want peaceful solution.

Sorry for my bad English.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-10 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. it's a lot like trying to reason with a hardline fundamentalist of any religion or a
Edited on Thu Apr-29-10 01:55 AM by Douglas Carpenter
strident unreconstructed Marxist or other "true believers" - It is actually very sad in a way. Because many of these people like the poster you mentioned are obviously very intelligent and talented people - but they are so locked into their belief system and their ideology that all critical faculties have simply melted away and dissipated.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Of course, Douglas. None of what's cited in post #42 is true at all.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-10 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Reality check for you.
Edited on Thu Apr-29-10 04:23 AM by shira
Hajj (Muhamed Effendi) Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - (also Hussayni or Hajj Amin el Husseini)
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Haj_Amin_El_Husseini.htm

I'm not sure what you mean by trying to blame Palestinians which therefore justifies occupation. The Mufti and Hamas could care less about the best interests of Palestinians and are as much the enemy of Palestinians - actually moreso - than Israel. The reality is that it's leadership like the Mufti (which has caused suffering to both Jews and Arabs) that has had a great deal to do with the Arab/Israel conflict. Hamas and the PLO just follow in his footsteps. To ignore this by trying to keep the blame focused solely on Israel will not bring peace to the region any faster.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
40. this article from the Simon Wiesenthal Center - hardly a pro-Palestinian source
Edited on Thu Apr-29-10 12:14 AM by Douglas Carpenter


Palestine and Nazi Germany


by Sara Reguer

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395105

snip:"Germany's Palestine policy between 1933 and 1940 was based on a fundamental acceptance of the post-World War I status quo in the Middle East. For different reasons, the Hitler regime continued in the footsteps of the various Weimar governments by identifying German interests with the postwar settlement in Palestine. That settlement embodied a growing Jewish presence and homeland in Palestine, as well as the establishment of British imperial power over Palestine and the Middle East. It also represented a denial of Arab claims to national self-determination and independence in Palestine and throughout the Middle East. Between 1933 and 1940, German policy encouraged and actively promoted Jewish emigration to Palestine, recognized and respected Britain's imperial interests throughout the Middle East and remained largely indifferent to the ideals and aims of Arab nationalism. (p. 201)"

Snip:"The relationship between Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question of the 1930s is widely misunderstood. Except for a few scholars here and there, this subject lends itself to a pervasive kind of misconception: we tend to read the Nazi policies of World War II back into the 1930s. The Nazis' "Final Solution of the Jewish Question," their pro-Arab attitudes, and their battle against Great Britain makes it difficult for most of us to imagine that before the war the Nazis, even the SS, aided the illegal immigration of Jews into Palestine, and that Hitler so feared British displeasure that he absolutely prohibited German support for the Arabs of the Palestine mandate. Yet this is exactly what Francis R. Nicosia has described and proved in his excellent scholarly study.

Nicosia clearly shows in his impressive introductory chapter that Germany's policy on Palestine remained unchanged from the late Empire through the Weimar Republic. German policy makers supported Zionist efforts because they recognized that Zionism could be an effective instrument of German foreign policy. During the 1930s, the Nazis continued this traditional policy because they wanted to use Zionism and please the British.

snip: Nicosia examines the role of the SS, and it is noteworthy that there was some cooperation between the SS and the Revisionist Zionists in the period 1933-1937. There is of course some logic to this, since the SS recognized that the Revisionists were vigorously pursuing Jewish emigration from Germany to Palestine. This too was the rationale behind the German government's support of the Zionists' agricultural retraining program; incidentally, Nicosia thoughtfully provides a map showing the distribution of the retraining centers (Appendix 11, p. 217). In retrospect, it is difficult for us to imagine that the Nazis encouraged Zionists from Palestine to enter Germany, teach Hebrew, educate German Jews about Palestine, and even display the blue and white Jewish national flag; the Revisionist Zionists even wore uniforms. Clearly this was all done for the promotion of purely German domestic and economic ends, with no concern for the Palestine situation itself.

snip:"Most Arabs never realized that the Nazis viewed them as racially inferior and that Germany was directly responsible for the increase in Jewish immigration during the 1930s. It was the Arabs, especially Palestinian Arab leaders like Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who openly made their pro-German feelings known. But Nicosia's analysis of the scholarly biographies of the Mufti shows that these biographies cannot be relied on for an accurate account of Nazi Germany's involvement in Palestine (p. 250, n. 3). Like others, I had relied on these biographies; now I must, however, agree with Nicosia's conclusion that Germany was not involved in the Arab Jewish conflict in Palestine of 1936-1937.

link to full article:

Palestine and Nazi Germany
by Sara Reguer

Francis R. Nicosia. The Third Reich and the Palestine Question. Austin: Texas University Press, 1985. xiv, 319 pages.

link:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395105



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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. That discredits the Mufti and ONLY the Mufti
No Palestinian alive today has anything to do with that.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is laughable.
"Zionist Jews were not interlopers in Palestine."

This is not true - look at the figures for the number of Jews in Palestine in 1930 and 1955.

"The creation of the Jewish state was not an "original sin" foisted upon the Arab world."

This is not true - the Palestinians had been governed by various groups in the past, but they'd never til then been displaced.

"The tragic flight of the Palestinian refugees was overwhelmingly not the fault of the Zionists."

This is wickedly, offensively not true - the Zionists murdered many Palestinians, forced many others out by force of arms, and the remainder fled because they were afraid, quite reasonably, that they would be treated the same. Nakba denial is utterly contemptible.

"To the contrary, at every momentous junction the Zionists opted for compromise and peace, the Arabs for intransigence and belligerency."

This is just laughable - what kind of compromise is "we will take some of your homeland from you by force of arms, and let you keep some of the rest"? And the establishment of Israel is as clear an example of not opting for peace as one could wish for.

This article is garbage from beginning to end.

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leeloo Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You had me till the tragic flight.HaHaHa..
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. so you consider displacing 750,000 people a joke?
says so much about your side
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leeloo Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. What side?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. the Palestinian
The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah), meaning the "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm",<1> occurred when between 650,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes by Yishuv or Israeli forces, during the creation of the state of Israel and the civil war that preceded it.<2> The term "Nakba" was first used in this way by Syrian historian Constantine Zureiq in his 1948 book, Ma'na al-Nakba (The Meaning of the Disaster).<3> According to Ilan Pappe, the term Nakba was adopted "as an attempt to counter the moral weight of the Jewish Holocaust (Shoa)".<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

and yes we are all very aware of the Jews being displaced from Arab countries and finding a home in Israel which it seems had some newly "vacated" space
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Part of the fleeing was in fact encouraged by the Arab nations attacking Israel
claiming that after they crushed the Jews, all their land and property would be available for the taking.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. And how was this encouragement broadcast? Radio?
It wasn't and historians have researched old radio broadcasts and found no calls to leave and come back to take property. The only property that was taken was that of Palestinians who were expelled or fled...
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. actually the stark opposite the Arab states and leaders tried to persuade the Palestinians to stay
put.

to quote former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami - and from page 43 of Scars of War Wounds of Peace: The Arab Israeli Tragedy

Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Scars-War-Wounds-Peace-Israeli-Arab/dp/0195181581/sr=1-1/qid=1166681762/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books



" Benny Morris found no evidence to show 'that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus'. Indeed Morris found evidence to the effect that the local Arab leadership and militia commanders discouraged flight, and the Arab radio stations issued calls to the Palestinians to stay put, and even to return to their homes if they had already left. True, there were more than a few cases where local Arab commanders ordered the evacuation of villages. But these seemed to gave been tactical decisions taken under very specific military conditions..."



This was already established since 1961 thanks to the scholarly work of Irish journalist Erskine Childers:



Examining every official Israeli statement about the Arab exodus, I was struck by the fact that no primary evidence of evacuation orders was ever produced. The charge, Israel claimed, was "documented"; but where were the documents? There had allegedly been Arab radio broadcasts ordering the evacuation; but no dates„ names of stations, or texts of messages were ever cited. In Israel in 1958, as a guest of the Foreign Office and therefore doubly hopeful of serious assistance, I asked to be shown the proofs, I was assured they existed, and was promised them. None had been offered when I left, but I was again assured. I asked to have the material sent on to me. I am still waiting.

...

Even Jewish broadcasts (in Hebrew) mentioned such Arab appeals to stay put. Zionist newspapers in Palestine reported the same: none so much as hinted at any Arab evacuation orders.

The fact is that Israel's official charges, which have vitally influenced the last ten years of Western thought about the refugees, are demonstrably and totally hollow. And from this alone, suspicion is justified. Why make such charges at all? On the face of it, this mass exodus might have been entirely the result of "normal" panic and wartime dislocation.

We need not even -touch upon Arab evidence that panic was quite deliberately incited. The evidence is there, on the Zionist record. For example, on March 27, four days before the big offensive against Arab centres by the official Zionist (Haganah) forces, the Irgun's radio unit broadcast in Arabic. Irgun, a terrorist organisation like the Stern Gang, was officially disowned by Ben Gurion and the Haganah. Yet just four days before the Haganah offensive Irgun warned "Arabs in urban agglomerations" that typhus, cholera and similar diseases would break out, "heavily" among. them "in April and May.

....There is one recorded instance of such an appeal. It is beyond dispute even by Arabs, that in Haifa the late gentle Mayor, Shabeitai Levi, with the tears streaming down his face, implored the city's Arabs to stay. But elsewhere in Haifa, Arthur Koestler wrote in his book that Haganah loudspeaker vans and the Haganah radio promised that city's Arabs escort to "Arab territory," and "hinted at terrible consequences if their warning were disregarded." There are many witnesses of this loudspeaker method elsewhere. In Jerusalem the Arabic warning from the vans was, "The road to Jericho is open! Fly from Jerusalem before you are all killed!" (Meyer Levin in Jerusalem Embattled). Bertha Vester, a Christian missionary, reported that another theme was, "Unless you leave your homes, the fate of Deir Yassin will be your fate." The Haganah radio station also broadcast, in Arabic, repeated news of Arabs fleeing "in terror and fear" from named places.

Still, however, we have plumbed this exodus only so far as panic is concerned. There are U.N. and Economist reports of forcible expulsion, which is something else. How much evidence is there for this? And were only the "unofficial" Irgun and Stern forces responsible? This is what Nathan Chofshi, one of the original Jewish pioneers in Palestine, wrote in an ashamed rebuttal of an American Zionist rabbi's charges of evacuation orders:

If Rabbi Kaplan really wanted to know what happened, we old Jewish settlers in Palestine who witnessed the fight could tell him how and in what manner we, Jews, forced the Arabs to leave cities and villages ... some of them were driven out by force of arms; others were made to leave by deceit, lying and false promises. It is enough to cite the cities of Jaffa, Lydda, Ramleh, Beersheba, Acre from among numberless others. (in `Jewish Newsletter,' New York, February 9, 1959).

http://www.users.cloud9.net/~recross/israel-watch/ErskinChilders.html



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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Wrong. Here's what Mahmoud Abbas, leader of the PLO, has to say about this...
"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the
Zionist tyranny, but instead they abandoned them, forced them to
emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political
and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the
ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe."


http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=121275
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. You've quoted Benny Morris before...
as have other pro-Israel posters. I would say he is probably the one historian that both figures are willing to give time to.

The contention that the Mufti told the Palestinians to flee Palestine is a myth. There were times when Palestinians were told to evacuate certain battle zones in order to minimise casualties.

Its quite strange actually - had they not done so you would have accused the Palestinians of using civilians as human shields. Instead, when they actually evacuate civilians you claim that by doing so the Palestinians consented to being ethnically cleansed from their historical homeland.

I can recommend Benny Morris' book "1948" to you. I do so because it becomes increasingly apparent that you have not read anything about the conflict other than the Little Green Footballs site and neo-Kahanist fringe tracts. Notwithstanding that you only read racist websites for the "facts, not the opinions", you might want to read a real book for once. The Amazon link is here:-

http://www.amazon.com/1948-History-First-Arab-Israeli-War/dp/0300151128/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272322393&sr=8-1
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. What do you think about all those quotes and video from links #15 and #17?
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 06:13 PM by shira
Now that I think of it, you're Lebanese, so what do you say to Palestinian refugees in Lebanon being given the choice to become citizens there?

For or against?

Since we're on the topic of who's responsible for Palestinians' mass exodus of 1948....
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Certainly some of them should be offered Lebanese citizenship...
and some of them would want to move to the West Bank once that is allowed. Some others should be offered residency in Europe - I would think in particular Britain owes a moral obligation to those refugees.

And I think some of them should be offered the chance to return to Israel, who after all were responsible for the exodus of the Palestinians in the first place. Europe has accepted Palestinian refugees, the Gulf countries have, Jordan and Syria have - why should Israel be the only country entitled to refuse any and all Palestinian refugees?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I'm just asking about those born in Lebanon who choose to become Lebanese citizens
Are you for granting the wishes of those who choose to shed their refugee status and become Lebanese citizens?

All the rest who don't choose to become citizens would therefore choose to remain in refugee status in the camps.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Well, I'll answer your question if you answer mine....
Yours was: Are you for granting the wishes of those who choose to shed their refugee status and become Lebanese citizens?

Mine is: Should other countries be obliged to absorb the entirety of the Palestinian exodus while Israel refuses to admit any?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. sure, no problem
Edited on Tue Apr-27-10 06:39 PM by shira
Olmert offered in 2008 for partial RoR over a period of time. I wouldn't mind seeing this WRT the original refugees from 1948 in a final deal. The problem is a final deal may be years or decades away. Why wait any longer WRT those refugees born in their host countries who choose to become citizens of those countries?

Yes or no - if it were up to you, all Lebanese born Palestinian refugees could choose to become Lebanese citizens NOW.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Why wait any longer to repatriate the original 1948 refugees?
There are about 180 000 refugees of 1948 alive today. According to the UN Convention on Refugees, to which Israel is a signatory, these people have a right of return irrespective of what Israel says.

So, yes or no - if it were up to you, all original Palestinian refugees (and their spouses, if they have subsequently married) could choose to become Israeli citizens NOW.

In answer to your question, yes, I consider that Palestinian refugees born in Lebanon should be offered pathways to permanent residence and citizenship if they so choose.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-10 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. For those who choose, sure
Am I to understand that you're for making citizens of all Lebanese born refugees immediately if they choose to become citizens?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yes
and I understand you're in favour of the same thing vis-a-vis Israel. Right?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Yep...looks like if we were in charge we could maybe end the conflict.
Edited on Wed Apr-28-10 06:09 PM by shira
It's nice to dream.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. The words women, children, and the elderly along with temporary
figure prominently in that posting of shira's
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I suppose that could be one version
a very self serving one for defenders of Israel it is further discussed here but keep in mind if the Palestinian had remained in place the permanent Jewish majority would have been much more difficult to achieve and maintain

Historians have argued over the causes of the Palestinian exodus. In early decades following the exodus, two diametrically opposed schools of analysis could be distinguished. The "Israeli Government claimed that the Palestinian Arabs left because they were ordered to and were deliberately incited into panic by their own leaders, who wanted the field cleared for the 1948 war", while "The Palestinian Arabs charge that their people were evicted at bayonet-point and by panic deliberately incited by the Zionists".<12> From the 1960s Walid Khalidi<13><14> and others have maintained that the expulsion of the Palestinians was a deliberate policy.<15>

With the opening-up of archival sources in the West and Israel, particularly the opening of the Protocols of Israel's cabinet meetings and the declassification of the Haganah Archive in Tel Aviv along with the IDF and Israeli Defence Ministry Archive in Givatayim,<16> a greater insight has been gained into the events leading up to the creation of Israel and the events surrounding its birth, in particular with the publication of the study by Benny Morris: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.

"New Historians" have presented a viewpoint suggesting around half of the Palestinians of the exodus were purposely expelled by Israeli army, though this was not an organized policy.<17><18> However, Walid Khalidi and other Palestinian historians, supported by Ilan Pappe, defend the thesis that the expulsions formed part of a deliberate plan.<19>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. You're correct. "Arab leaders are responsible for refugee problem"
"The radio stations of the Arab regimes kept repeating to us: 'Get away from the battle lines. It's a matter of ten days or two weeks at the most, and we'll bring you back to Ein-Kerem .' And we said to ourselves, 'That's a very long time. What is this? Two weeks? That's a lot!' That's what we thought . And now 50 years have gone by."

more...
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=1102
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. He's not. You'd have known that if you bothered reading the posts around you...
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 03:51 PM by Violet_Crumble
Douglas Carpenter did a detailed post explaining that there were no broadcasts from radio stations.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Links in #15 and #17 thoroughly debunk Carpenter's false findings...in fact, link #17
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 05:58 PM by shira
quotes from Benny Morris, who Carpenter quoted, and Morris claims just the opposite - which corresponds to many Arab statements including Mahmoud Abbas WRT Arabs ordering Palestinians to evacuate in 1948.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. to quote former Israeli Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami from his book,
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 11:58 PM by Douglas Carpenter
Scars of War Wounds of Peace: The Arab Israeli Tragedy

Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Scars-War-Wounds-Peace-Israeli-Arab/dp/0195181581/sr=1-1/qid=1166681762/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books



from page 42:

"The reality on the ground was at times far simpler and more cruel than what Ben-Gurion was ready to acknowledge. It was that of an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation, at at times atrocities and massacres it perpetrated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of massacres that would be carved into the Arabs' monument of grief and hatred."


and from page 43:

" Benny Morris found no evidence to show 'that either the leaders of the Arab states or the Mufti ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus'. Indeed Morris found evidence to the effect that the local Arab leadership and militia commanders discouraged flight, and the Arab radio stations issued calls to the Palestinians to stay put, and even to return to their homes if they had already left. True, there were more than a few cases where local Arab commanders ordered the evacuation of villages. But these seemed to gave been tactical decisions taken under very specific military conditions..."

From page 44:

"The first major wave of Arab exodus in April-May 1948, essentially in the wake of the Dir Yassin massacre that was perpetrated by Lehi and Irgun with the Haganah's connivance and the unfolding of Plan D, might perhaps have taken the leadership of the Yishuv by surprise. But they undoubtedly saw an opportunity to be exploited, a phenomenon to rejoice at -- Manachem Begin wrote in his memoirs, The Revolt, that 'out of evil, however, good came-and be encouraged. 'Doesn't he have anything more important to do?' was Ben-Gurion's reaction when told, during his visit to Haifa on 1 May 1948 that a local Jewish leader was trying to convince Arabs not to leave. 'Drive them out!' was Ben-Gurion's instruction to Yigal Allon, as recorded by Yitzak Rabin in a censored passage of his memoirs published in a censored passage of his memoirs published in 1979, with regard to the Arabs of Lydda after the city had been taken over on 11 July 1948....Plan D, however, was a major cause for the exodus, for it was strategically driven by the notion of creating Jewish contiguity even beyond the partition lines and, therefore by the desire to have a Jewish state with the smallest number of Arabs.

from page 44:

"The debate about whether or not the mass exodus of Palestinians was the result of a Zionist design or the inevitable concomitant of war could not ignore the ideological constructs that motivated the Zionist enterprise. The philosophy of transfer was not a marginal, esoteric article....These ideological constructs provided a legitimate environment for commanders in the field to encourage the eviction of the local population even when no precise order to that effect was issued by the political leaders. As early as February 1948, that is before the mass exodus had started but after he witnessed how Arabs had fled West Jerusalem, Ben-Gurion could not hide his excitement."

"Ben-Gurion's reaction when told, during his visit to Haifa on 1 May 1948 that a local Jewish leader was trying to convince Arabs not to leave. 'Drive them out!' was Ben-Gurion's instruction to Yigal Allon, as recorded by Yitzak Rabin in a censored passage of his memoirs published in a censored passage of his memoirs published in 1979, with regard to the Arabs of Lydda after the city had been taken over on 11 July 1948....Plan D, however, was a major cause for the exodus, for it was strategically driven by the notion of creating Jewish contiguity even beyond the partition lines and, therefore by the desire to have a Jewish state with the smallest number of Arabs.





from:

Fred M. Donner
Professor of Near Eastern History
The Oriental Institute
The University of Chicago
Chicago, Ill.

link:

http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/web_exclusives/more/more_

The population of Palestine (west of the Jordan River) in 1880 was under 590,000, of whom 96 percent were Arabs (Muslim or Christian); roughly 4 percent of the population was Jewish.

By 1914, the population of Palestine was about 650,000. Of this, the Jewish population was about 80,000, or a little over 12 percent. Of the 88 percent remaining, 570,000 people, Israeli and non-Israeli scholars estimate that at least 550,000 were Palestinians (Christian or Muslim) who were descendants of families in Palestine already in the 1840s — or almost 85 percent of the total 1914 population of Palestine. The great majority of them, in other words, were not recent immigrants.

There was a lot of immigration to Palestine between 1880 and 1948, of course, but most of it was by European Jews, who came in several well-defined aliyot ("waves"), drawn to Palestine by the Zionist dream or fleeing economic hardship and persecution in Europe. The first aliya (up to 1903) brought 25,000 new Jewish immigrants, roughly doubling the Jewish population of Palestine.

The second aliya (1904-1913) brought another 35,000 Jews. The third aliya (1919-1939) saw the arrival of 350,664 Jewish immigrants, according to British Mandate statistics.

In 1945, the Jewish population of Palestine stood at about 554,000, or about 30.6 percent of the total population of Palestine at that time, which was 1.8 million. Mr. Schell is absolutely right: Some Jewish communities have existed in Palestine for hundreds of years. But, as the figures above make clear, most Jews in Israel today are, in relative terms, newcomers — descendants of people who arrived during the past three or four generations; to call them "colonists," as Professor Doran did, is not inappropriate.

On the other hand, Mr. Schell is absolutely wrong to hint that Palestinians are generally newcomers: As we see, most Palestinians of today can trace their ancestry to families who have been resident in Palestine for hundreds of years. The debate over immigration figures is, of course, merely part of the broader effort by Palestinians and Israelis to delegitimize each other by claiming the other side to be interlopers. Mr. Schell's evident desire to cast doubt on the historical roots of the Palestinians' claim to their land suggests that he has been taken in, like many other people, by such works as Joan Peters’ tract "From Time Immemorial," which popularized for obvious political purposes the myth that many Palestinians were descendants of recent immigrants. Such a view is simply not supported by the evidence. "







and this article by world renowned Israeli hisorian Avi Shlaim of Oxford regarding transfer:

London Review of Books, 9 June 1994




While the ethics of transfer had never troubled Ben-Gurion unduly, the growing strength of the Yishuv eventually convinced him of its practical feasibility. On 12 July 1937, for instance, Ben-Gurion confided to his diary:

The compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had ... a Galilee free from Arab population .... We must uproot from our hearts the assumption that the thing is not possible. It can be done.

The more Ben-Gurion thought about it, the more convinced he became that "the thing" could not only be done but had to be done. On 5 October 1937, he wrote to his son with startling candour:

We must expel Arabs and take their places ... and, if we have to use force - not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places - then we have force at our disposal.

The letter reveals not only the extent to which partition became associated in Ben Gurion's mind with the expulsion of Arabs from the Jewish state but also the nature and extent of his territorial expansionism. The letter implied that the area allocated for the Jewish state by the Peel Commission will later be expanded to include the Negev and Transjordan. Like Vladimir Jabotinsky, the founder and leader of Revisionist Zionism, Ben-Gurion was a territorial maximalist. Unlike Jabotinsky, Ben-Gurion believed that the territorial aims of Zionism could best be advanced by means of a gradualist strategy.

When the UN voted in favour of the partition of Palestine on 29 November 1947, the struggle for Palestine entered its decisive phase. Ben-Gurion and his colleagues in the Jewish Agency accepted the partition plan despite deep misgivings about the prospect of a substantial Arab minority, a fifth column as they saw it, in their midst. the Palestinians rejected the partition plan with some vehemence as illegal, immoral and impractical. By resorting to force to frustrate the UN plan, they presented Ben-Gurion with an opportunity, which he was not slow to exploit, for extending the borders of the proposed Jewish state and for reducing the number of Arabs inside it. By 7 November 1949, when the guns finally fell silent, 730,000 persons, or 80 per cent of the Arab population of Palestine, had become refugees. "

link to full article:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/It%20Can%20Be%20Done.html

Avi Shlaim was born in Baghdad in 1945, grew up in Israel, and studied at Cambridge and the London School of Economics. He is a Fellow of St. Anthony’s College and a Professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford. He was elected a Fellow of the British Academy in 2006. His books include Collusion Across the Jordan: King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine, The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World, and War and Peace in the Middle East: A Concise History. He lives in Berlin.








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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. This is false, Benny Morris wrote this...
Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. Starting in December 1947, he said, “Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants ‘treacherously’ acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments.” He concluded, “There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations” (Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 590.)

http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=121275
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. Map showing the massive destruction of Palestinian towns after al-Nakba in 1948
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 10:07 PM by Douglas Carpenter

The RED DOTS represents the ethnically cleansed and destroyed Palestinian towns during and after the 1948 war.



http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story572.html
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. What a load of mindless crap.
I got up to the bit where that idiot couldn't even get it right about Benny Morris before I gave up, spotted Ephraim Karsh in teh following paragraph, and wondered why you think posting the mainstream Israeli narrative of the creation of Israel is something new or a 'counterpoint'...

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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. One thing I've always found dispicable
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 05:27 AM by Tripmann
is the fact that those who practise the filth of Nakba denial would gladly throw the book at the Holocust deniers out there. Double standards once again.
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