Lib Dem warns of 'power of Jewish lobby'

[shira]

A Liberal Democrat parliamentary candidate in Yorkshire told a hustings meeting that “the power of the Jewish lobbies in Washington and Britain” are the reason a full arms embargo has not been imposed on Israel.

Madeleine Kirk, standing for the party in the new seat of York Outer, was speaking at the York University event on Wednesday afternoon.

A question was asked about whether the candidates believed arms sales to Israel should be banned. Ms Kirk, a long-standing local city councillor, replied that an embargo should be in place, but was not, "because of the Jewish lobby”.

She then went on to back disgraced Lib Dem peer Jenny Tonge’s call for an inquiry to disprove allegations that Israeli army medical teams in Haiti “harvested” organs of earthquake victims.

more...
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/31087/lib-dem-warns-power-jewish-lobby

[shira]

1. Frankie Boyle: Israel is apartheid, terrorist

Comedian Frankie Boyle has described Israel as an “aggressive, terrorist” and “apartheid” state during an attack on the BBC’s decision to apologise for a joke he made about Jews.

The Scottish comedian, who has appeared on Mock the Week and Have I Got News for You, made the comments in an open letter responding to the BBC Trust editorial standards committee’s apology earlier this week.

Mr Boyle made the original remarks on Radio 4’s Political Animal in June 2008 and said: “I'm quite interested in the Middle East, I'm actually studying that Israeli army martial arts. And I know 16 ways to kick a Palestinian woman in the back.

“I've got an analogy which explains the whole thing quite well: if you imagine that Palestine is a cake – well, that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew.”

After a series of complaints, the BBC apologised for “any offence” it may have caused listeners and admitted it breached editorial guidelines.

Responding to the decision, Mr Boyle criticised the BBC and said: “The Trust’s ruling is essentially a note from their line managers. It says that if you imagine that a state busily going about the destruction of an entire people is fair game, you are mistaken. Israel is out of bounds.

“The BBC refused to broadcast a humanitarian appeal in 2009 to help residents of Gaza rebuild their homes. It’s tragic for such a great institution but it is now cravenly afraid of giving offence and vulnerable to any kind of well drilled lobbying.

“The situation in Palestine seems to be, in essence, apartheid. I grew up with the anti-apartheid thing being a huge focus of debate. It really seemed to matter to everybody that other human beings were being treated in that way. We didn’t just talk about it, we did things, I remember boycotts and marches and demos all being held because we couldn’t bear that people were being treated like that.”

He also described a film he had seen about life in Palestine where a doctor accused the audience of doing nothing to help.

“I cried at that and promised myself that I would do something,” he said. “Other than write a few stupid jokes, I have not done anything. Neither have you.”
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/31246/frankie-boyle-israel-apartheid-terrorist

[shira]

17. If Kirk and Boyle made these comments about blacks, their careers would be over

In fact, if their neo-antisemitic comments were directed at Zionists or Israelis (instead of Jews) then all would be alright.

It's a sick joke.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Certainly Boyle's would not have ended

British comedians (and those in other countries) can get away with an awful lot of bigoted remarks - satirical or serious, especially if they carve out for themselves careers as 'brave', 'plain-spoken', 'politically incorrect', etc.

Bernard Manning was one of the most extreme examples of a comedian who made a habit of ridiculing blacks, Asian people, gays and other minorities. Although this did interfere with his opportunities to perform on *television*, he still had a very successful career, making many public appearances until his death in 2007. When he died, an obituary in the London Evening Standard was entitled 'The man they couldn't gag'.

Another comedian, Stan Boardman, has been controversial for telling nasty jokes about British Asians, but it did not end his career. Pat Condell, yet another comedian, has been pretty vile about Muslims, both in jokes and in more serious commentary - again his career continues!

Speaking of 'sick jokes', Boyle has already made some *very* sick jokes about disabled people, and it didn't end his career.


Politicians have also often survived quite well here despite (or possibly in some cases because of) being very nasty about black people and other minorities - though this is commoner in the Tory party than in other parties. Just one example is Ann Winterton, a long-serving Conservative MP. Here are a few examples of her remarks (from Wikipedia, but sourced). I apologize for inflicting some vile bigotry on the forum, but I think that it is important to recognize what people can essentially get away with saying:

'Pakistani joke (told in 2002):


An Englishman, a Cuban, a Japanese man and a Pakistani were all on a train.
The Cuban threw a fine Havana cigar out the window. When he was asked why, he replied: "They are ten a penny in my country."
The Japanese man threw an expensive Nikon camera out of the carriage, adding: "These are ten a penny in my country."
The Englishman then picked up the Pakistani and threw him out of the train window.
When the other travellers asked him to account for his actions, he said: "They are ten a penny in my country."'<2>..


Joke about the 2004 Morecambe Bay cockling disaster

In February 2004 she had the Conservative whip removed (that is to say, she was suspended from the party) for telling the following joke (which alluded to the recent death of twenty-three illegal immigrant Chinese cockle-pickers in Morecambe Bay) at a Whitehall private dinner party to improve Anglo-Danish relations, and refusing to apologise:

One shark turned to the other to say he was fed up chasing tuna and the other said, 'Why don't we go to Morecambe Bay and get some Chinese?'<3>

A month later, Winterton apologised for that joke, and had the whip restored.<4> Lord Taylor of Warwick, the only black Conservative peer in the House of Lords, condemned her being restored and said she was not fit to be an MP.<5>

...

In September 2005 (following the May general election) Winterton said she felt that Britain is a country where:<7><8>

"Crime is out of control ... and where thousands of illegal immigrants are waved in with no checks on whether they are criminals or potential terrorists. <...> We live in times of tremendous change, but the United Kingdom is still, thankfully, a predominantly white, Christian country. <...> Some might say we are now paying the price for the so-called ‘benefits’ of the multicultural society, the product of almost uncontrolled immigration and the abuse of asylum."


So a consistent pattern of racist remarks. She had the whip *very briefly* removed on one occasion (see above), and it probably interfered with her chances of very high office (she was asked to resign as a Shadow junior Minister) - but it did NOT interfere with her being repeatedly elected as an MP. What finally did end her career was not the racism, but her own and her MP husband's involvement in the recent scandal about MPs claiming excessive expenses.

[miscsoc]

20. what was the antisemitic comment boyle made again?

nt

[proteus_lives]

22. Very true.

[LeftishBrit]

25. Not very true - see post 18

In the UK, antisemitism is stronger than it should be, but colour prejudice is stronger, and generalized anti-immigrant prejudice strongest of all.

[Old Troop]

26. Jews have never been considered white in the UK

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

2. If anyone reading this is in York Outer, please vote Labour!!!!

I am in favour of stopping arms sales to Israel and lots of other places as well; but anyone who promotes the 'organ harvesting' allegations is an antisemite or at least influenced by such.As regards Frankie Boyle, he is hardly a model of unprejudiced, considerate speech. Most notably, his jokes about Downs syndrome.

But all these quotations are being selected to sound as though antisemitism is overwhelming in the UK, and is our main form of prejudice. Firstly, no it isn't; it exists and is a problem, but judging from various surveys, less so than in most Europaean countries, and no more (perhaps less) than in America. Secondly, there is a hell of a lot of prejudice and xenophobia of various sorts here, some of which is much commoner and much more accepted.

Let's try a thought experiment:

Suppose that about a week before a general election, the British Prime Minister talks to ane elderly voter, who questions him on various issues, and complains: "You can’t say anything about the Jews, but all these Jews here... where are they flocking from?”

Suppose that the Prime Minister then talks to an aide, and carelessly fails to check that the mike is off. He is recorded describing the voter as 'this sort of antisemitic woman'.

The entire press is outraged - at the PM for making the comment. A tabloid reports the incident as 'GRANNY DEMONIZED FOR DARING TO SAY THE J-WORD'. Another describes the Prime Minister as a 'HYPOCRITE WHO SHAMES BRITAIN'. It is assumed by everyone that the gaffe will lost him popularity with his core voters, and may cost him any hope he had of winning the election. Even the PM himself describes the encounter as a 'disaster', and makes a special effort to visit the woman and apologize profusely.

The incident would rightly be treated by many outside as a worrying indication of British antisemitism.

Yet this incident did happen (and the repercussions are continuing) - but the people under discussion were not Jews, but East Europaean immigrants, and Gordon Brown said 'bigoted' not 'antisemitic'.

At least, East Europaeans are mostly white and Christian. If this were about non-white, Muslim immigrants, the negative reactions would be even more blatant.

None of this is a defence or denial of the existence of prejudice against Jews, just because there is often even more prejudice against other groups. It is saying that all prejudice must be fought, and fought concertedly, as basically the same thing, whoever is the current target of it. If it's the East Europaeans today, it will be the Jews, Muslims or non-whites or most likely *all* of these tomorrow.

For this reason, I think that reports on the words of Frankie Boyle or Madeline Kirk really don't belong on the I/P forum so much as on GD, the UK forum, or ideally a forum dedicated to racism, bigotry, antisemitism and xenophobia.


P.S. Gordon Brown SHOULD have been much more careful about checking that mike!!!

[shira]

3. Why hasn't Jenny Tonge's a$$ been thrown out of the LibDem party? What's the holdup?

[IndianaGreen]

5. There is no stupid AIPAC in the UK!

Get a life, shira!

[shira]

6. Do you see anything wrong with Tonge's views WRT Jews?

[Tripmann]

7. What views shira

I know she made a stupid remark with relation to israel that she apologised for and then withdrew.

Are there remarks against jews as well?

[shira]

8. I don't expect you to see anything antisemitic with Tonge at all

Not after our conversation WRT to the bigoted Colonel Travers of the Goldstone commission.

[Tripmann]

15. I don't recall any conversation where I discussed allegations

of anti-semetism of Conl. Travers with you. Please link.....

[oberliner]

9. What was the stupid remark she apologised for and then withdrew?

Not sure what you are referencing there.

[LeftishBrit]

11. That there should be an investigation of allegations of Israeli 'organ harvesting' in Haiti

She has also said other nasty things in her time, including that the 'Zionists' control many organizations in the UK, including the LibDem party.

Tonge (good name for her, as she's all tongue and no brain!) was tossed out of her political job, and as a backbench member of the House of Lords, has no power or influence.

Incidentally, her successor as MP for Richmond Park, also a LibDem, is Jewish (Susan Kramer).

[miscsoc]

21. what do you mean by 'zionists'

what are the quotes for?

the zionist movement obviously exists and is well organised and funded, which gives it substantial influence over British foreign policy. What's nasty about acknowledging that?

[LeftishBrit]

13. AIPAC has nothing to do with it. Racists should not be in political office, especially in liberal

parties.

Of course, Blair should also have had his arse thrown out of the Labour Party for his warmongering, long ago.

[IndianaGreen]

14. The entire government of Israel is RACIST!

As long as the DU "pro-Israel" contingent remains oblivious to that simple fact, I won't give a FRAK about their concerns regarding the off the wall comments by someone that doesn't even live in the United States.

[LeftishBrit]

16. Most of it is, and it should be kicked out.

This doesn't justify slandering Jews elsewhere.

That is the equivalent of using some action by India to justify George Allen's 'macaca' remark.

And why does it matter whether they live in the United States? Tonge lives in *my* country.

If you read my post, you will see that in fact I think that *all* racism and bigotry should be opposed in a unified way, and that the I/P forum is perhaps not the most suitable forum for discussing antisemitism in Britain. And that bigotry against immigrants is in fact much more endemic and accepted in the UK than bigotry against Jews. But none of this is an excuse for Tonge.

[proteus_lives]

23. It's all in caps. So it must be true

So says the DU "Hate-Israel" contingent.

[Shaktimaan]

28. the entire government?

Really? Racist against any particular race? Or just a general sort of racist?

Like are the European members racist against the Arabs, Druze, Blacks and Sephardim; while the Arab members are racist against the Blacks, Druze, Europeans and Sephardim; and so on? Or does everyone just collectively hate the Armenians or something?

[LeftishBrit]

12. She's out of a job and has no power.

I would like her thrown out of the party (and think she will be in the end), but it would really make little difference.

[IndianaGreen]

4. FRAK Labour and the hell with the Blairs and the Browns!

New Labour must die!

[LeftishBrit]

10. Brown is very different from Blair; and do you want the Tories to get in?

Personally I'm voting LibDem. I have a good MP who is LibDem, and can beat the Tories here. But if an absolute idiot like Tonge was running as a LibDem, you can bet I wouldn't vote for her.

[shaayecanaan]

19. Good for you...

Although I think Clegg is an absolute palefaced neo-liberal third-wayer who will be no improvement over New Labour. But I dearly hope that Labour will run a distant third, they fully deserve to lose after their betrayal of virtually everything that they previously stood for.

[unabelladonna]

24. idiots

i'm sick of these fools who seem to single out israel for their contempt.