Special Place in Hell / Rebranding Israel as a state headed for fascism

[azurnoir]

No one knows fascism better than Israelis. They are schooled, drilled in the history, the mechanics, the horrendous potential of fascist regimes. Israelis know fascism when they see it. In others.

They might well have expected when fascism began taking root here, it would arise at a time of a national leadership of galvanizing charisma and sweeping, powerfully orchestrated modes of action.

But that would have been much too obvious to deny. And it would take denial, inertia, selective memory, a sense that things – bad as they are - can go on like this indefinitely, for fascism to be able gain its foothold in a country founded in its very blood trail.

Wrote Boaz Okun, the mass-circulation Yedioth Ahronot's legal affairs commentator and a retired Israeli judge, of Israel's ban on Noam Chomsky: "The decision to shut up Professor Chomsky is a decision to shut down freedom in the state of Israel.

"I'm not speaking of the stupidity of supplying ammunition to those who claim that Israel is fascist," Okun wrote, "rather, of our fear that we may actually be turning that way."

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/special-place-in-hell/special-place-in-hell-rebranding-israel-as-a-state-headed-for-fascism-1.290977

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. You mean it's not going to be a theocracy any more?

Interesting idea.

[azurnoir]

2. Israel was never a theocracy

most Israeli Jews are secular

[ConsAreLiars]

3. Almost "most."

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Religion-in-Israel

And I suspect the percent has gone down since that report.

But you're right, it is not so much religious combat but tribal supremacism that underlies the newcomer's expulsion and suppression of those they drove into exile or displaced and ghettoized and starved. Same sort of brutal dynamic that the old writings describe and praise.

Plus the practical politics of today, becoming an agent for and co-dependent ally of the most vicious and brutal empire the world has known for at least 60 years.

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. Not the ones in power

And it is a religious state whether or not there is a percentage of the population who are "secular", whatever that means to a Jewish person. I understand that even if they don't pray and chant and all that, they're still Jews living in a Jewish state, which is, ipso facto, a theocracy.

[shira]

6. Using your logic, the USA was a theocracy under G.W. Bush with his Christian fundamentalist beliefs

[Cronus Protagonist]

9. We don't, at least not Constitutionally, legislate religious laws

I understand Israel does. George was a president of a secular country, who happens to also espouse a belonging to a religious sect. Israel is a Jewish country with a state religion, a president who is a Jew and a government that legislates in favor of Jews.

Apples and Oranges. But then again, you already know that your argument is specious. I do wonder what you are arguing FOR... that Israel is secular? See, it's difficult to do that when the facts are in opposition.

[shira]

11. No one serious believes Israel is a theocracy. You need to do some real research.

[grassfed]

12. "A marriage between a Jew and non-Jew may not be performed in Israel" US Embassy in Israel

With the exception of consular marriages, a marriage between a Jew and non-Jew may not be performed in Israel. Either the non-Jewish partner must convert to Judaism or the Jewish partner must convert to the religion of the other.


MARRIAGE IN ISRAEL - US EMBASSY

[shira]

13. LOL. And I'm betting you think the PA is a secular govt in the W.Bank as opposed to Hamas theocrats

"It often makes people uncomfortable to refer to Israel as “the Jewish State” because it suggests a theocracy and, therefore, the demise of Israel as a Jewish state is viewed by some people (even in Israel) as a positive development. Israel is not a theocracy; however, it is governed by the rule of law as drafted by a democratically elected parliament. It is informed by Jewish values and adheres to many Jewish religious customs (such as holidays), but this is similar to the United States and other nations that are shaped by the Judeo-Christian heritage and also have expressly religious elements (e.g., church-state separation in the U.S. does not preclude the recognition of Christmas as a holiday).

Israel has no state religion, and all faiths enjoy freedom of worship, yet it is attacked for its Jewish character, whereas the Arab states that all have Islam as their official religion are regarded as legitimate."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#p

[grassfed]

14. 17 religious sects recognized in Lebanon

Religions in Lebanon:
Muslim 59.7% (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%

CIA World Factbook
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/le.html

[grassfed]

15. Status of Religious Freedom in Lebanon US Dept of State

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion and the freedom to practice all religious rites provided that public order is not disturbed. The Constitution requires the state to respect all religions and denominations and guarantee respect for the personal status and religious interests of persons of every religious sect. The Constitution declares equality of rights and duties for all citizens without discrimination or preference but stipulates a balance of power distributed among the major religious groups. The Government generally respected these rights in practice; however, there were some restrictions, and the constitutional provision for apportioning political offices according to religious affiliation may be viewed as inherently discriminatory.

The Government permits recognized religious groups to exercise authority over matters pertaining to personal status, such as marriage, divorce, child custody, and inheritance. The "Twelver" Shi'a, Sunni, Christian, and Druze confessions have state-appointed, government-subsidized clerical courts that administer family and personal status law.

US Dept of State

Note: The 'balance of power' aspect is the result of millions of refugees ethnically cleansed from Palestine by Jewish terrorists.

[azurnoir]

7. Actually ther are 2 ways of defining "Jew"

as the late Joseph Campbell pointed out Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic designation and the term "Jewish State" is predicated on the latter besides if you give that any thought it is true afterall have you ever heard anyone described as "looking Lutheran"

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. I disagree with the second way of defining "Jew", as a race

There are clearly a lot of Jewish people who are of Arabic descent, if we're talking race. There's no need for a new subcategory and a claim of uniqueness as far as race goes.

If we're talking religion, and we are talking religion when we talk of a Jewish state, then there are clearly Jews of all races living there that are accorded special status due to their religious practice. For example, there are no black Jews in Israel who are treated less than others just because they are not of Arabic descent like the "good" Jews. Or maybe there are, and I just haven't heard about it, but I doubt that.

In other words, it seems clear to me that Israel is all about religion, not about race.

[azurnoir]

16. I did not say race and there is a difference between

ethnicity and race and yes I am quite aware that there are Jews of different races

[LeftishBrit]

4. Interesting and sad article...

expresses a lot of my current concerns.

[shira]

8. Chomsky just said Israel is Stalinist

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/after-denied-entry-to-west-bank-chomsky-likens-israel-to-stalinist-regime-1.290736

So is Israel becoming Fascist or Stalinist?

:shrug:

Reminds me of the antisemites who used to bash Israel for being too leftwing. Now it's too rightwing.

:eyes: