Lieberman presents plans for population exchange to UN

[whosinpower]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/lieberman-presents-plans-for-population-exchange-to-un-1.316197

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Tuesday presented the United Nations with his draft for a population and territory swap, as part of an eventual peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians.

Under Lieberman's controversial scheme, part of Israel's Arab population would be moved to a newly created Palestinians state, in return for evacuation of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.



Well isn't that a surprise?(sarcasm)
Those who felt that demanding Abbas recognize Israel as a Jewish state is not big deal should take note of this proposal.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

1. Remember, this is the foreign minister, speaking in his official capacity.

It is not an isolated crazy.

There is no hope for a consensual peace, the only hope - such as it is - is from external pressure on Israel.

[oberliner]

4. How is this different from what President Carter has endorsed?

I don't see the details of this proposal, but the idea of a land swap is one of the components of the Geneva Initiative.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. Has Carter endorsed ethnic cleansing?

It seems out of character for him, and I haven't heard him proposing it.

If he hasn't, then that's how this proposal is different.

[oberliner]

14. Have you seen this proposal?

Can you post a link to it if you have?

The Geneva Initiative, which President Carter supports, includes an Israeli/Palestinian land swap.

Is this proposal different from that? Does it actually call for ethnic cleansing?

I have not seen the text of what was submitted to the UN.

Have you?

[azurnoir]

16. Perhaps you are unaware that Lieberman has in the recent past

suggested that the land swap consisting of towns in Israel that had Arab majority populations and that those towns along with their people be switched, or go you think he had a change of heart on this matter never the less what he said certainly upset Bibi and Ehud to name only a couple

Ministers: Lieberman causing Israel damage

Netanyahu, Barak shake connection to foreign minister's UN speech, which ministers say was meant to stymie peace process. Minister Herzog: Lieberman shames his country in public. US clarifies that only prime minister leading peace talks

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's speech before the UN, which was in stark contradiction with the official position of Israel's government, has set Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak on edge, prompting them to shake all connection with his statements. They were not the only ones.

Minister Isaac Herzog went so far as to say that the peace process may even alter the coalition's makeup, adding that he hopes "this happens as soon as possible."

Many ministers asked about the matter on Tuesday preferred not to respond. However, others said that Lieberman's speech, made by an official representative of Israel on such an important international stage, incurred damage on the country and was meant, in essence, to harm fledgling talks with the Palestinians and the chances for their renewal after the Israel's construction moratorium on West Bank settlements was not extended.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3961736,00.html

[oberliner]

17. Would he be foolish enough to submit such a plan to the UN?

Not sure what he would think he would be accomplishing in doing so.

In any case, he needs to go. He is a national embarrassment for Israel.

[azurnoir]

18. If it were almost anyone but Lieberman

I would say no he wouldn't be that foolish, but with this this guy who knows?

[whosinpower]

20. My understanding is that he already did submit it to the General Assembly

Perhaps embarrassing Netanyahu was the goal. It appears that politics are still in play even during peace talks, and perhaps even moreso. Lieberman undermines Netanyahu - and if Netanyhau cannot rein him in, then he is seen as a leader who, even if a historic peace agreement was forged....it has to go back to the knesset for ratification....would undermine Netanyahu's political collateral to get it ratified....at least that is how I am seeing it.

Ayalon sang his praises of the speech....this was the same guy who refused to agree to a summary of a meeting and led the palistinian negotiator to walk out in anger.

Perhaps it is time for Netanyahu to find different partners in the coalition......timing sucks.....

[bemildred]

2. Nice euphemism: "population exchange". nt

[Tripmann]

3. Isn't it? Kinda like calling waterboarding 'freedom tickling'

[oberliner]

5. What makes this different from a land swap?

Is he proposing that some Israelis of Palestinian origin would be forced to leave Israel and move to Palestine?

If he is just talking about a land swap, that is what was endorsed by President Carter and others who support the Geneva Initiative.

I would love to see the actual text of what he turned over to the GA.

[whosinpower]

6. It isn't about the land

It is about "preserving" the demographics - therefore it means that some Arabs would be forced to leave Israel in exchange for some settlers leaving the west bank in the event of a peace settlement.

That is my understanding from the article.

[bemildred]

7. Land and people are not the same thing at all?

Mr Lieberman is clearly contemplating moving people around to achieve a certain composition in certain places:

"Under Lieberman's controversial scheme, part of Israel's Arab population would be moved to a newly created Palestinians state, in return for evacuation of Israeli settlements in the West Bank."

My principle objection is to the notion of moving persons native-born to one place somewhere else by force, it is always an ugly business whenever it is attempted. This applies to everyone, settlers, Arabs, etc.

It is nice that Mr Lieberman appears to be admitting tacitly that the settlements must be given up, but the settlers should be allowed to stay, if they wish, and likewise for other parties of all sorts. If an engineered population composition is such a great thing, there should be no problem getting everyone to volunteer to pick up and move to their proper pidgeon-hole.

[oberliner]

9. But what is he proposing?

If he is proposing the forcible removal of Israelis out of Israel and into a new Palestinian state, I don't see that garnering any kind of favorable response from any of the players involved.

[bemildred]

10. Always a good question, that.

I suspect his proposal - if more than talk - is not too specific, but I was relying on the OP, for rhetorical purposes at least, as a version of what he proposes.

I agree, as I said, that any attempt to carry this out would be an ugly business, so I'm not in disagreement with your conclusion.

[aranthus]

8. He seems to be talking also about the people living on the land.

The Israeli Arabs living in areas ceded to Palestine would become citizens of Palestine. They wouldn't move off the land, but they would no longer be Israelis. The Jews living in settlements would move to Israel. Divesting people of their citizenship without their consent is not kosher.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. I'm in agreement with you there...

That looks like what he's talking about, and it doesn't look like it would be a voluntary thing at all...

[Crunchy Frog]

15. There's a difference between land and people?

Just hazarding a guess here.

[oberliner]

19. Don't people live on the land?

Would the land being swapped by Israel to the new Palestinian state be uninhabited?

[azurnoir]

11. Lieberman: I expressed the facts and public opinion

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Tuesday that the Palestinians are not interested in peace and the time has come for Israel to stop blaming itself for failing to achieve peace.

Lieberman made the comments during an interview with Channel 2 news while defending comments he made earlier at the UN General Assembly.

In his speech before the General Assembly, Lieberman told international leaders that he believed that Israel must arrive at an interim agreement with the Palestinians, that peace would only be possible after a number of decades, and that an ultimate agreement would require population and territorial exchanges.

The foreign minister said during the Channel 2 interview that at the UN he talked about the facts and expressed the opinions of "the majority of the Israeli public" on the issue of peace negotiations.

He said that everyone wants peace and "maybe the time has come to change the direction of negotiations."

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=189554


and just by "coincidence"


2 Israeli-Arabs accused of aiding Hamas; plotting terror

Umm Al-Fahm residents allegedly traveled to Syria to meet with operatives; were paid several thousand dollars for their activities.

The Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) revealed on Tuesday that it had arrested two Israeli-Arabs who during a trip to Saudi Arabia allegedly met with Hamas operatives who live in Lebanon and Syria.

During their meetings with the Hamas operatives, the two were asked to locate an arms cache that Hamas had hidden to be used in terror attacks against Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=189537

[Donald Ian Rankin]

22. Sadly, he really does represent a large chunk - possibly a majority - of Israeli Jewish opinion.

Ethnic cleansing is not a fringe proposal in Israel, it's probably a more popular approach than the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. Netanyahu has now said he "doesn't reject" this.

How the hell can anyone think that the main obstacle to peace is the PA and not Israel?

[polly7]

23. Many Israeli's reject it, but Netanyahu is onboard.

U.S. Jews outraged by Lieberman's UN speech on population exchange ( 0)

By Shlomo Shamir and Barak Ravid
Haaretz
Wednesday, Sep 29, 2010

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_61239.shtml

snip: "Many Israelis and U.S. Jews were outraged by the foreign minister's speech, and several American Jewish leaders demanded Lieberman's resignation.

"If Lieberman can't keep his personal opinions to himself, he ought to resign from the cabinet," said Seymour Reich, a former president of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations."

snip: "But sources close to Netanyahu have privately said he doesn't consider Lieberman's views to be illegitimate and does not intend to chastise him for the speech."



"A few decades" .................. well sure, why not? It's not like the Palestinian people haven't been denied long enough.

on edit: I was wrong, the article states it's U.S. Jews outraged.

[oberliner]

24. Not exactly

Difference between the text you cited and being "on board"

Prediction: Lieberman/Netayahu breakup is imminent - six/eight months and the government falls.

Livni - put on your batting gloves.