Palestinian Group Sells Out To The Lobby

[ProgressiveMuslim]

By M.J. Rosenberg - September 29, 2010, 9:56AM

This is hard to understand until one realizes that this is just an example of politicians acting like politicians (i.e, with no regard for the people they claim to represent).

During their recent visits to the United States, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad made absolutely no headway with the Obama administration. Although the idea of negotiating with Netanyahu while he is building more settlements is ridiculous on its face, the administration allowed Israel to end the settlements freeze. It did say, however, that it was "disappointed" but, other than that, the White House had no criticism of Netanyahu. It's back to the policy of previous administrations: no criticism of Israel in even or odd numbered years.

So Fayyad and Abbas have decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Under the tutelage of the American Task Force On Palestine, they have decided to join up with the Jewish far right in this country.

Specifically, the ATFP is hooking up with The Israel Project, a fringe organization well to the right of AIPAC. The love affair began months ago but culminated at a dinner in New York during the recent visit which Fayyad, ATFP, and The Israel Project treated as their "coming out" party.

So what's wrong with Palestinians "reaching out" to Jews.

Nothing. Except that in sucking up to the pro-settler, anti-Palestinian Israel Project, they are trying (yes, I believe it's intentional) to weaken the progressive forces in the pro-Israel community like J Street, Americans for Peace Now, Jewish Voice For Peace, and the others. After all, if the Palestinians endorse a far right Zionist organization, why should Jews bother with the likes of J Street?

Why do these Palestinians prefer the Jewish right to Jewish progressives?

The PA and the ATFP live in terror of the idea that they will come under pressure to find some way to establish a unity arrangement with Hamas (so that the PA or PLO can negotiate with Israel in the name of all Palestinians). They are fearful that Jewish progressives are not quite the hardliners on that issue that they are. And they are right. Even AIPAC could vacillate. But not far rightists like The Israel Project which never abandon the Likud's favorite Palestinians.

read on...
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/29/palestinian_group_sells_out_to_the_lobby/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. So Hamas is leftout in the cold

I'm not seeing the down side.

If Israel and the PA cooperate to marginalize a terrorist organization that opens up plenty of opportunities for accommodation on both sides.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Did you read the piece? Is that truly what you take from it?

[azurnoir]

3. yep and Ray proves it this week in his JPost editorial

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=189562

good to see you back:hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Yo do realise that the Israeli govt is a hardline RW govt who doesn't want peace?

It's a govt that refuses to lift a finger to stop terrorist acts carried out by extremist Israeli serttlers against Palestinians and which tries to introduce discriminatory anti-Arab laws in Israel itself. What on earth would lead you to believe that the Israeli govt is some party that's looking for peace?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. You do realize Hamas is a batshit collection of thugs...

...who rob and murder their own...

...and they don't want peace either.

But the marginalization of Hamas will marginalize the complaints of Netanyahu et al.

That makes the rest of Israel more tractable.

Solid majorities in Israel accept 2 states but Hamas drives them to the RW.

BTW - what exactly are the pro-Jewish laws in the Arab territories? People who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses...so to speak.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. I already reallise that. But do you realise what I said about the Israeli govt is true?

It doesn't seem like you do, seeing as how yr trying to blame Hamas for the extremism of the Israeli govt and its supporters. The extremists in Israel predate Hamas, so you might have to rejig yr claim that Hamas drives Israel to the extremes...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. No, that's not what I said.

It is equally fallacious to insinuate that there was no violent extremism or anti-semitism in the region before Israel was created.

We can debate, without value or purpose, whether it was wise to create Israel in 1948 but Israel did not solely and exclusively provoke the bloody-mindedness embodied by Hamas.

The real facts are: Israel is not going away, the PA is not going away and Hamas is a bunch of thugs determined to destroy both Israel and the PA.

Seeking the path of least bloodshed I believe that if Israel and the PA can work together to marginalize Hamas it not only removes an enemy to both groups it serves as a trust building exercise. Likud can be as ridiculous as it wants but it will be ignored at the polls by those Israelis who overwhelmingly accept a 2-state solution.

Israel and the PA will serve their respective citizens and neighbors far better than a group like Hamas.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. What makes you think the PA is not going away?

I do not think it at all impossible that the inevitable collapse of the current round of peace talks and the resumption of settlement building will result in the PA being displaced by Hamas in the West Bank as they have been in Gaza.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. That would be a bad thing.

Very bad.

If Hamas takes over entirely the disaster for the Palestinians would be complete. Whatever pressure Obama could place on Israel for anything would evaporate. Even the EU would be loathe to pressure Israel to sit down with Hamas.

And unless I miss my mark the local moderate Arab governments aren't very keen on the idea of having Hamas as a neighbor.

Obama needs to do something big to bolster the PA.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. You were blaming Hamas for the extremism in Israel....

Hamas are thugs etc, where there's no attempt to explain their extremism, while in stark contrast, the extremism of the Isreali govt and its supporters is explained away by blaming Hamas. Likud are merely seen as ridiculous, not as extremist thugs. You don't seem to realise that Israel outright refused to talk to the PLO before it did the same to Hamas - Hamas were in fact encouraged at first by Israel as an alternative to the PLO, which turned out not all that great for Israel. Also, I didn't insinuate that there was no violence prior to the creation of Israel. What I said in response to yr blaming Israeli extremism on Hamas was that Israeli extremism had existed before Hamas came into being. What I said and what you seem to think I was saying are two completely different things. I suggest you try sticking with what I actually say...

Nothing that's been done or said so far has marginalised Hamas - in fact Hamas have been anything but marginalised. Israel and its US supporters might like to tell the Palestinian who should represent their interests (of course they mean the interests of Israel and not Palestinians), but the fact is that at the moment Hamas are in power in Gaza and it does appear that refusing to talk to them just increases their power, so it doesn't make sense not to invite them to talks. If they refuse as they probably would, then there's been no harm done in trying...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. Maybe the majority of Israelis *answer polls* saying they support two states.

I haven't checked that - it may be true, or it may not be. But - as made clear by the results of the last election - that is not actually the case.

Revealed preference is always more meaningful than declared preference.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. That sword cuts both ways

Israel can say Palestinians don't want peace when they elect genocidal thugs like Hamas.

Unlike Hamas, Likud did not go around murdering its rivals in a post-election bloodbath. The PA is the Palestinians first, best hope for their own nation and that nation is the best hope for peace.

[oberliner]

4. Good thing MJ Rosenberg is around to tell Palestinian groups what to think and whom to endorse

I am sure they appreciate it!

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Hopefully anyone with a shred of common sense would suggest not endorsing the Israel Project..

Did you read the article? I don't understand why you'd appear to have a problem with someone pointing out how utterly pathetic it is for Abbas to be having anything to do with a far-right group like the Israel Project....

[oberliner]

14. I completely disagree

I think it's great that Fayyad and Abbas were willing to attend these meetings.

To quote the one of the group's founders: "More Jews and Muslims, Israelis and Palestinians, should sit together over dinner and exchange ideas -- especially when it can help lead to security and peace."

The Israel Project is certainly no more far right than the Netanyahu government with whom Abbas and Fayyad are/were meant to be negotiating.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. You think it's great that they meet with extreme RWers who attack them on its site?

Uh, why? It's an extreme RW pro-Israel group that has attacked Abbas on its site.

What do you think that group's founder means when they talk about security and peace? Do you think they're talking about the peace and security of equals or the peace and security that RW extremists believe in where the rockets stop and the settlements continue to expand and Palestinians are moved out of their homes and attacked?

While both are extremely RW, you do see the difference between a group like the Israel Project and the Nutty govt, don't you? I can see the reason for beginning talks with one, but I can't see the reason for attending a dinner with a group like the Israel Project. If Abbas wanted to give the impression he's become a quisling, that's the sort of thing he needs to keep doing...

[oberliner]

17. Absolutely - and Netanyahu/Peres should meet with groups who attack them also

At some point whatever agreement is reached is going to have to attempt to be sold to a very broad range of people with opinions that are right, left, and center.

It's better to get those conversations going sooner rather than later.

Many have argued that Hamas, for example, ought not to be excluded from these negotiations, in spite of their commitment to armed resistance against Israel, which has included terror attacks.

Shimon Peres has stated that Hamas should be engaged in conversation if there is any hope for a real and lasting peace.

There is no way that any progress will be made on any kind of negotiation if the two sides are not speaking to folks who do not agree with them.

More talking, more conversations, more "town hall" meetings, more responding to questions is better than less if we want an agreement to be reached peacefully.

I would love to see Abbas or Fayyad sit down with one of the leaders of the Israeli settler movement, and I would love to see Netanyahu or Peres sit down with one of the leaders of any of the various Palestinian resistance groups.

Talking to those who oppose you, especially the most extreme among them, can make at least some progress towards helping to humanize what may be an abstract concept for some.

Do we really want this conflict to go on without end? Do we want to see violence continue or get worse?

Now is the time for bold suggestions, difficult compromises, and surprising overtures. If not now, when?

[Violet_Crumble]

18. You do realise that negotiations don't happen with extreme RW 'advocacy' groups?

It happens between govts.

I also find it hard to believe that you'd think it was a wonderful thing if an Israeli leader were to sit down for dinner with some American pro-Palestinian group that called him a terrorist and did nothing but attack Israel and blame it for everything....

Could you point me to the posts in this forum where you've argued that the Israeli govt should meet with Hamas? It's just that yr putting up a very strong argument here for Palestinian leaders to meet with extreme RW pro-Israeli groups in the US, but I can't recall you putting up a similar strong argument when it comes to the Israeli govt talking to Hamas...

Also, what do you think that Israel Project founder means when they talk about security and peace? Do you think they're talking about the peace and security of equals or the peace and security that RW extremists believe in where the rockets stop and the settlements continue to expand and Palestinians are moved out of their homes and attacked?

[oberliner]

19. Of course

I still support speaking to those who disagree with you.

I would whole-heartedly support Netanyahu speaking to a pro-Palestinian group that called him a terrorist (as some have) and attacked and blamed Israel for the conflict (as some do).

I don't know if I've made any posts like the one you speak of, but I do think it's a good idea for Israeli leaders to talk to Hamas if members of Hamas are willing to do so (which I'm not sure they are).

As to what the Israel Project founder means by her remarks - I am sure she envisions a scenario where many of the settlements become part of Israel in a land swap or some other arrangement as part of the two-state solution.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Well, I think that's rather pathetic...

It's not merely a matter of someone honestly disagreeing with Abbas - after all, I have no problems with talking to those who disagree, but not when it's RW extremists who cast him as an enemy and attack him constantly.

I don't know if I've made any posts like the one you speak of, but I do think it's a good idea for Israeli leaders to talk to Hamas if members of Hamas are willing to do so (which I'm not sure they are).

Why haven't you expressed that opinion in this forum when you clearly feel very strongly about Abbas talking to some extreme RW advocacy group that isn't a party to the conflict? There's been more than enough opportunity in discussions here...


As to what the Israel Project founder means by her remarks - I am sure she envisions a scenario where many of the settlements become part of Israel in a land swap or some other arrangement as part of the two-state solution.

So you think the Israel Project is talking about the same sort of peace that's not the 'peace' of extremists? I think yr being overly generous there and giving the Israel Project far too much credit....

[oberliner]

23. Noted!

Again, I would say that the fact that Abbas/Fayyad are able to talk to hostile groups and perhaps win over some folks or at the very least cause some people to perhaps challenge their previously held beliefs is a potentially very positive development. I guess we are just going to have to disagree on that one (and I'll take the hit of being told my opinion is pathetic!).

I'll be on the lookout for posts and articles where Israeli leaders are invited to speak to Hamas members and/or leaders. If I see any such invitations, I will make sure to register my support for those initiatives.

Honestly, I don't know for sure what the Israel Project folks are talking about, but I assume that they want some kind of peace on what they would consider to be favorable terms. Otherwise, what would be the point of inviting the Palestinian leadership to speak in the first place?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Actually, he's one of the few writers who seems to LISTEN.

Nice try though.

[oberliner]

21. He sure does seem to have a lot of time on his hands

He publishes a new article almost every other day and have you seen how often he tweets!