HRW Demands Criminal Investigation Into Death of 20 y.o Palestinian Patient Denied Permit By Israel

[mudplanet]

Friday January 07, 2011

Human Rights Watch and other organizations have demanded a criminal investigation into the death of a 20 year old Palestinian patient who was denied a permit by Israeli Authorities to leave Gaza. The Israeli authorities insisted that an unconscious patient appear for questioning by the Israel Security Agency; the patient died in Gaza while waiting for a response.

http://www.imemc.org/article/60362

[WhiteTara]

1. cruelty has no bounds. n/t

[jimmie]

2. I guess HRW ...

forgot about the 180,000 Palestinians treated in Israeli hospitals last year...for free.

But I guess it was a oversight.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. "Look, here are millions of people I didn't kill; how dare you blame me for the one I did".

States have a responsibility to all the people they rule over, not just those they let vote.

For as long as Israel continues to rule over the Palestinians and to prevent the foundation of a viable Palestinian state, failing to provide them with healthcare as good as that provided to Israelis, at the expense of those Israeli subjects allowed to vote, is unacceptable.

[oberliner]

4. Israel does not rule over Gaza

Gaza is ruled exclusively by Hamas. They make all the laws and they enforce all the laws. There are no Israeli troops, military bases, settlements, or people of any kind in Gaza.

[mudplanet]

5. Very similar to saying prisons are run by the prisoners

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. There is no requirement for a sovereign nation to open its borders to anyone

[mudplanet]

8. If adherence to law is your concern, note that Isreal is violating

most international laws concerning human rights and has been for decades.

There's also the law of "being a decent human being." Let's see what kind of jailhouse lawyer you make when your teenage son is dying but could be saved if you could get him to the hospital ten minutes away but some officious prick of a border guard decides he should die because he's a non-Jew.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. It is not. I said nothing about international law

which is by and large ignored by most nations.

The borders were much more open before Hamas took over at the point of a bayonet. There is a clue there for you.

[mudplanet]

13. "It's all the Palestinians own fault that the Israelis are killing them

and stealing their homes, businesses and farms. The Israelis didn't want to do it, the Palestinians forced them to do it. If only the Palestinians would accept everything the Israelis want then the Israelis wouldn't have to keep on killing them and stealing their land. If only the Palestinians would leave their homes and move to Syria or Lebanon or Jordan, Israel wouldn't have to kill them."

Some folks truly are clueless.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Clearly you are since that is not what I have said

[mudplanet]

18. Point of fact: Hamas didn't take over at the point of a bayonet, it won a fair election

[oberliner]

22. Clearly not true - where were you in June of 2007?

Hamas won the most seats in the legislative election - that's it. Just like the Republicans winning the most seats in the House does not mean they get to take over.

The taking over part did indeed happen at the point of a bayonet as the Fatah leadership (ostensibly the coalition governing partners) were forced out of Gaza by Hamas during the month of June of 2007 in a bloody military conflict.

[mudplanet]

25. Under their system of government the majority gets to form a government.

Drawing parallels to the US system is useless.

But, when a party wins the most seats in the house and the senate, they have effective control of the government. How did you think it worked?

Jebus weeping on a stick, what is it with you and Shira? In a democracy you have an election. The party with the most votes wins and gets to govern. Just because it was Hamas, you and Shira can't declare that logic and physics no longer apply.

[oberliner]

27. What happened in Gaza in June of 2007?

Was there or was there not a brutal military conflict that led to Fatah being driven out of the West Bank? What was that fighting all about in your view? What Palestinian government was in place before that conflict and how was it different afterward? Why are there now two different people who claim to be the Palestinian Prime Minister? Is either one of them the legitimate leadership?

I don't know that you fully have grasped the ramifcations of the events of that time period. To say that leadership was not seized by "the bayonet" - there was certainly some killing going on - can you deny that? - people were being thrown off of buildings for crying out loud!

Edit to add: How often does the Palestinian legislature get voted on? When are the next elections supposed to happen? Shouldn't that have happened already?

[mudplanet]

29. There was a power struggle and the legally elected party won.

[oberliner]

40. If I had not read your other posts, I would think that comment was satire

As it stands, it simply leaves me speechless.

[mudplanet]

43. Oh, how I wish it were so.

[shira]

12. International Law is worthless WRT Israel when it demands Israel cannot protect its citizens.

For example, without the border fence/wall, thousands of deaths.

With the wall/fence, far fewer deaths.

Laws making such border fences/walls illegal aren't worth following.

[mudplanet]

19. I'm sure international law is inconvenient for Israel and it's defenders

[shira]

28. It is when it leads to more death and bloodshed. n/t

[mudplanet]

31. And violating international law hasn't lead to more death and bloodshed? Oh, I get it,

death and bloodshed is ok as long as it's non-Jews doing the dying.

[shira]

32. Before the "illegal" border fence/wall, thousands of deaths. Afterwards, not so much. Get it?

And that would include fewer Palestinian deaths as a result of IDF defense against cross-border attacks.

Do you prefer Israel follows the law and destroys the border fence/wall and allows all hell to break loose?

What do you think will happen as a result?

[mudplanet]

36. Untrue. Before the illegal wall, some Israeli deaths and lots of Palestinian

deaths. Afterwards, fewer Israeli deaths and even more Palestinian deaths, Palestinians living under apartheid. Get it? Or don't you think Palestinian deaths count?

We really are far apart, aren't we. Yes, I prefer Israel follows international law. Let's at least get that straight so that, in the future, we don't engage in useless discussion: I prefer Israel follow international law, especially in respect to human rights and, until it does or makes significant progress to doing so, I oppose US aid to Israel. I know that you may consider that believing Israel and Israelis don't have "special" privileges and "extra" human rights that supersede the rights of other human beings to be a radical idea. It's not.

Take down the wall and allow Palestinians to return to their homes.

[shira]

51. Taking down the wall is a pro-war position that will lead to far more death. n/t

[oberliner]

9. Not at all - the prison guards (and administration) make and enforce the rules in prisons

The people of Gaza have an elected leadership that makes and enforces all of the laws in Gaza. Israel has nothing to do with any of that.

[mudplanet]

17. Wrong. Gaza is surrouded by Israeli tanks, planes and ships. Gaza is denied

control of it's own coastline and border.

[shira]

56. Would you prefer Hamas does whatever it wants, and whatever happens, oh well? n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

54. Gaza is not (yet) a separate nation to the West Bank, thankfully.

At present there are two national groups involved in the conflict - the Israelis and the Palestinians - and the former are preventing the latter from establishing a state. Yes, Gaza is a part of Palestine over which Israel does not exercise direct control; on the other hand, they also make it impossible the PA - who have something closer to a democratic mandate to rule the Palestinian people than Hamas do - from trying to do so.

I think that the situation fragmenting into a three-way issue between Israelis, West Bankers and Gazans would be an absolute catastrophe, especially for the Gazans. I also worry it may well be a goal of Israeli policy - for all their claims of wanting to undercut Hamas rule, it looks very much as though they're deliberately trying to shore it up against possible PA takeover, so as to have an excuse for continued occupation of the West Bank and to weaken the PA's negotiating position.

[shira]

55. Ridiculous post.

1. Israel is not preventing a Palestinian state. The PA rejected legit proposals for their own state in 2000 and 2008.

2. Israel has been trying to undercut Hamas rule, not strengthen it against PA takeover - hence the blockade.

[jimmie]

7. Of course they could have taken him to Egypt

except of course Egypt won't allow even one Palestinian ito enter Egypt and they have shoot to kill orders.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. It not fair to point out that the Arab nations have always treated the Palestinians

like crap at best, using them as proxies for their anti Jew violence

[mudplanet]

16. Again, see above. Apparently the Zionist position is that it's ok to force

Palestinians off their lands, out of their homes, and to steal their farms, because the surrounding countries have an obligation to take them in, and when they don't, it's Arabs who are bullies, not Jews.

The best simile for this argument is that its as though I threw you out of your home and someone chooses to overlook my crime and instead chooses to criticize your neighbor for failing to subsequently give his home to you.

[mudplanet]

15. Jimmie, why do you think that is?

Israel's policy and strategy is to force Palestinians out of the West Bank and all lands adjacent to what reactionary Zionists consider to be historical Israel (which they've stated includes Jordan). In the process of implementing that policy they've forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into Lebanon, Syria and Jordan (mostly in refugee camps) where they've been for two generations. Like any decent, self-respecting people the Palestinians have chosen to fight for their homes and their rights. This hasn't caused too many problems in Syria and Jordan because they're, essentially, feudal Arab kingdoms run with an iron hand. Lebanon, however, is a vibrant liberal democracy (Zionist continually state that Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Mid East but that is a black lie - Lebanon is and was a liberal democracy and, before Israel nearly destroyed it, it was considered the "Pearl of the Mid East"). Due to Israel's policy of using terror to drive Palestinians out of the West Bank and Jerusalem, south Lebanon became the base of Palestinian resistance to Israel, and Lebanon became Israel's defacto enemy. The presence of hundreds of thousands of foreigners in Lebanon has destabilized the country and caused a host of problems. Egypt sees this and doesn't want it to happen there.

[jimmie]

20. No thank you.

There is nothing I could say to convince you otherwise.

[mudplanet]

24. Well, the hospital in Egypt was ten times farther away, but that doesn't matter

I easily persuaded by facts and evidence. Bullshit walks.

"Oh, the Israeli government is only as bad as the Egyptian." That makes it ok?

[oberliner]

21. Approximately 90 percent of what is written here is not true

Here are the false statements:

1. Israel's policy and strategy is to force Palestinians out of the West Bank and all lands adjacent to what reactionary Zionists consider to be historical Israel.

Clearly not true as exactly zero Palestinians have been forced out of the West Bank over the past forty years.

2. In the process of implementing that policy they've forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into Lebanon, Syria and Jordan

No Palestinians have been forced into any of those countries - the Palestinians who are there are all descendants of those who became refugees in 1948 as a result of the war that was initiated by those very three countries (among many others).

3. This hasn't caused too many problems in Syria and Jordan because they're, essentially, feudal Arab kingdoms run with an iron hand.

Black September?

4. Lebanon, however, is a vibrant liberal democracy.

Multi-confessional system - revolving around entitlements to specific groups.

5. Due to Israel's policy of using terror to drive Palestinians out of the West Bank and Jerusalem, south Lebanon became the base of Palestinian resistance to Israel, and Lebanon became Israel's defacto enemy.

No Palestinians have been driven out of the West Bank - certainly no relationship between any Israeli actions in the West Bank and south Lebanon.

Curious to know where you are getting your information from? You seem to intermingle legitimate sources with others that are less so (as I suppose we all do).

[mudplanet]

23. Weeping Jebus, simple gainsaying doesn't make the truth go away.

Clearly not true as exactly zero Palestinians have been forced out of the West Bank over the past forty years.
There is a wealth of evidence reported by every human rights organization concerned with the conflict that Israel is conducting an ongoing campaign to create unlivable conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank (while it systematically destroys their homes and farms) although I'm aware that you and Shira insist that all human rights organizations, including a number of outstanding and courageous Israeli ones, are anti-Semitic.

No Palestinians have been forced into any of those countries - the Palestinians who are there are all descendants of those who became refugees in 1948 as a result of the war that was initiated by those very three countries (among many others).
You got one thing right: those Palestinians have been in those refugee camps for generations because Israel refuses them their human right to return to their homes after being terrorized into fleeing.


Curious to know where you are getting your information from? You seem to intermingle legitimate sources with others that are less so (as I suppose we all do).
Funny you should say that. It's my observation that the only time you acknowledge evidence that is critical of Israel is for the sole purpose of gaining credibility for your specious arguments, simple untruths, and pernicious half-truths.

There are well over a hundred thousand Palestinians living in refugee camps. Fact.
They used to live in what is now Israel. Fact
They have been denied the right to return to their homes by Israel. Fact.
Reactionary Zionist blame the victims and continually deny any responsibility for their own crimes. Fact.

I love this game because I don't have to be smart or clever. I just have to continue to post facts so DU readers can learn about what is really going on in the conflict without having to do a lot of surfing. The reactionary Zionists have to continue to make up specious arguments and tell untruths while I simply respond by restating facts. Easy.

[oberliner]

26. I couldn't agree more

Please identify for me any source that provides any figures with respect to Palestinians who were forced out of the West Bank?

There are none.

There are many sources that talk about Palestinians being forced from one part of the West Bank to another part of the West Bank. But there are no sources that can provide numbers of Palestinians being forced out of the West Bank entirely because that has not happened.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

I would add that I have made no claims about any human rights organizations being anti-semitic. Certainly not any Israeli ones. That is preposterous.

With respect to your second point, we agree that those refugees are descendants of those who left during 1948. I am glad, at least, of that much. Why do the countries they are currently living in keep them in refugee status? Why not grant them full citizenship? Many people (tens of thousands of European Jews for example) were forced to leave their homes during that same time period and have since become citizens of the countries to which they fled.

There are indeed many thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps. I find this to be abhorrent. Why not press for the countries in which they are living to grant them full rights and citizenship immediately?

Your second "fact" is wrong. Almost none of the people in question used to live in what is now Israel. The overwhelming majority of them had parents, grand-parents, or great-grand parents who lived in Israel.

This is not a game, and I would certainly encourage anyone who is interested to try to confirm any of the statements you are making that I am alleging to be inaccurate.

[mudplanet]

30. Why shouldn't they be allowed to return to their homes as per their

human rights as defined by international law?

[shira]

33. Descendants of refugees are not refugees, but citizens of the states they were born into.

Except for Palestinians.

Do you support such apartheid policy vs. Palestinians, within Arab countries they were born into - including Lebanon - which you have called a "liberal democracy"? Palestinians are denied basic rights other Lebanese citizens have there.

And Lebanon is also supported with your tax dollars.

That means you pay for the Lebanese gov't to deprive Palestinians of basic human rights.

[mudplanet]

34. This is contrary to Israeli law.

Israel's nationality law defines the terms through which one can be granted citizenship of the state of Israel. It also includes the Right of return for Jewish diaspora. Israeli law also follows jus sanguinis as the primary mechanism through which one may obtain citizenships, rather than jus soli.

So, it's ok to claim Israeli citizenship if you're a refugee, as long as you're a Jew. Non-Jews get a different law.

So, if Israel can manage to drive Palestinians out of their homes and into refugee camps and keep them there for a generation, the the Israelis get to claim that only they have the right to live in the Palestinian's homes. You may think that's fair. I doubt human beings do.

The actual point of "law" is that people have rights and we don't live in a world in which the strong get to do what ever they want to the weak.

Don't give me that crap about Lebanon receiving US aid - Israel is the single largest recipient of US aid and has been every year since 1976. Israel isn't self-sufficient - it wouldn't be able to exist in it present form with it's present policies without US aid.

End US support of Israel NOW.

[shira]

35. There are no other descendents of refugees in the world like Palestinians.

Name other descendants of refugees going back 62 years other than Palestinians who are denied citizenship in the countries they were born.

I'll wait.

There is no such thing. Claiming descendants of refugees are refugees themselves is like arguing descendants of slaves in the USA are still slaves.

:eyes:

So it's you who believes in one standard for Israel and one for the rest of the world...

========

One again, in Lebanon Palestinians are denied basic human rights - on your tax dollars.

Why aren't you protesting that and demanding aid to Lebanon cease NOW?

[mudplanet]

37. Wow. Maybe that's why I'm advocating the Palestinian's right of return.

Israel's nationality law defines the terms through which one can be granted citizenship of the state of Israel. It also includes the Right of return for Jewish diaspora. Israeli law also follows jus sanguinis as the primary mechanism through which one may obtain citizenships, rather than jus soli.

So, there's one set of laws in Israel for Jews, another for non-Jews. Jews who are considered refugees from some long-ago mythical past have the right to Israeli citizenship: Palestinians who were driven out of their homes by terror tactics three, four and five decades ago, they aren't refugees.

In the very near past, actually, since I was able to be aware of the issue, so not so long ago, the Palestinians were driven out of their land by terror, and since then the Israeli government has occupied their homes and lands and denied them the right to come back. I think you are claiming that there is a "statute of limitations" on that type of human rights crime. There isn't.

Don't give me that crap about US aid to Lebanon-Israel is entirely dependent of US aid to exist and to continue it's policies violating human rights. End US aid to Israel now.

Why aren't you protesting about Israeli human rights crimes?

[shira]

39. So you agree descendants of Palestinian refugees should not be considered refugees themselves?

Since there is no such thing as inherited refugee status for any other people on this planet?

I suppose Lebanese apartheid against Palestinians isn't bad enough for you to protest WRT your 'tax dollars'.

:eyes:

Lebanon can continue doing that on your tax dollar. Israel should be cut off.

Makes sense!

:sarcasm:

[mudplanet]

42. I think that if Jews who have been absent from Israel for 500 generations

can be considered refugees with the right of return, Palestinians who have been absent for two generation should certainly be afforded the same right.

[shira]

53. Sure, when there's peace between the 2 nations and democracy/rights are guaranteed....

...otherwise the situation will return to as it was prior to 1948, with civil war and death. The status quo is preferable to that situation. Hopefully things will change.

In the meantime, Palestinians in Lebanon are being abused and that doesn't appear to bother you in the least.

[mudplanet]

38. Apparently Israeli law disagrees with you

[oberliner]

41. Why shouldn't they be granted citizenship in the countries they have been living in for 60 years?

It ought to be an international crime that countries like Lebanon keep these people in refugee camps and refuse to accord them the same civil rights as actual citizens.

Palestinians in Lebanon suffer from discriminatory official policies preventing them from improving their living conditions. This ought to be unacceptable today regardless of what happened sixty years ago.

[mudplanet]

44. Again, why should they have to give their legal homes to Israelis? If I stold

your home from you fifty years ago, it still isn't mine. You still hold legal title.

International law says that refugees from violent conflict have a right to return to their homes. Just because the Israelis were able to continue the violence for fifty years doesn't negate that law and principle.

It is an international crime that the Palestinians are kept in refugee camps, but they are being kept there by the Israelis who have illegally occupied their homes and their businesses.

Why do Jews who haven't stepped foot in Israel in a thousand years have more right to Palestinian land than Palestinians who were driven out of their homes fifty years ago?

[oberliner]

46. If someone's grandfather stole my grandfather's home 60 +years ago...

I would try to live my life in the land where I was born and not really dwell too much on the past.

Which is exactly what I am currently doing - along with thousands and thousands of other people around the world.

Thankfully, I live in a country that has granted me citizenship even though my descendants were driven out of another land and lost their homes in a conflict during the 1940s.

One would think that a "thriving liberal democracy" such as Lebanon would afford its Palestinian population the same courtesy.

But instead they keep thousands of Palestinians in squalid refugee camps and refuse to allow them to become citizens for no other reason than the fact of where their grandparents were born.

[mudplanet]

47. Really. Then why have European Jews moved en masse to Israel

Why do Palestinians have to be displaced from their homes and lands because a lot of European Jews decide that they want to live in Israel? Why don't they just stay where they are?

Doesn't someone have the right to return to their home after a conflict? Yes, they do, says international law. It's inconvenient for you, but there it is.

If Lebanon wants to grant citizenship to the Palestinian refugees, fine, that would be nice and generous. But it still wouldn't negate the rights of those Palestinians to return to their homes in Israel. In fact, it might be a good idea for those Palestinians to be granted dual Lebanese-Israeli citizenship, just as so many Israelis have dual American-Israeli citizenship.

[oberliner]

50. What on earth are you talking about?

European Jews deciding en masse to move to Israel? Why don't they just stay where they are?

What the heck are you referencing here?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. Do you support the restoration of goods stolen in the Holocaust? N.T.

[shira]

52. So you don't care that Lebanon treats their Palestinians like complete shit?

You can't be bothered to speak up for the rights of those Palestinians, and demand your tax dollars to Lebanon be cut off until conditions improve for them?

If it were up to people like yourself, this would continue another 62 years.

:shrug:

And you probably consider yourself pro-Palestinian.

:eyes:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. As does Eqypt, Syria, and Jordan. Then there are those who use Palestinians as proxies

to die in the sand against the "Little Satan" while they remain safe in their countries shouting exhortations and sending arms.

[mudplanet]

45. Again, why should they have to give their legal homes to Israelis? If I stold

your home from you fifty years ago, it still isn't mine. You still hold legal title.

International law says that refugees from violent conflict have a right to return to their homes. Just because the Israelis were able to continue the violence for fifty years doesn't negate that law and principle.

It is an international crime that the Palestinians are kept in refugee camps, but they are being kept there by the Israelis who have illegally occupied their homes and their businesses.

Why do Jews who haven't stepped foot in Israel in a thousand years have more right to Palestinian land than Palestinians who were driven out of their homes fifty years ago?

[hayu_lol]

48. This thread was posted about the lack of med.care for one...

individual. Obviously that was only an excuse to post on other matters.

Why not just simply stay on your original subject?

Would also be a good idea to answer valid questions as they come up.

Our own right wing is very good at changing the topic when the answers/questions do not please them.

[mudplanet]

49. What valid questions have I not answered?

[hayu_lol]

59. Budd-Chiari Syndrome is a rare liver disease. At the stage this young man had progressed...

to, it would almost seem that a liver transplant might have been the only thing to save him. The article linked to did not really give a time frame except to mention that he was ill in Sept. of last year. If the Gaza physicians did not accurately diagnose this problem, then that is where the fault lies.

If a transplant was needed...did the Israeli hospital have the equipment to do the surgery and follow up and could a match liver be found?