EU anti-racism body rejects allegations of “shelved” anti-Semitism report

[Paschall]

Report to be published in early 2004

http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/index.php

Report in PDF here (two pages) http://www.eumc.eu.int/eumc/material/pub/FT/MR-AntiSemitism-EN.pdf

EXCERPT:

EUMC Media Release - 26 November 2003

The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) rejected allegations contained in articles by the Financial Times dated 22/23 November and 24 November that it had "shelved a report on anti-Semitism in Europe because the study concluded that Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents". The EUMC is in fact continuing its research on anti-Semitism and will publish the results early next year.

END EXCERPT

The reasons given for the delay are "poor quality and lacking in empirical evidence."

You'll have to download the press release to read more.

[Philosophy]

1. Why don't they just black out the bad parts?

And claim they had to because of "national security"

[Jim Sagle]

2. Pssttt....they're lying.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[rini]

4. Europeans lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them

in a bad light! Never!

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

5. Enlightened sentiment

who doesn't?

promoting stereotypes is in poor taste, especially when trying to dispel those levied upon you.

B

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. Stereotypes

It is not citing stereotypes to point out the hundreds and hundreds of years of history of anti-Semitism in Europe including mistreatment, Inquisition, abuse, murder and Holocaust.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

8. No, you are wrong

this is not 'pointing out' history . Europeans are liars was it not...unless you think calling blacks criminals is fine because of crime statistics.

Guess what, europe is soaked with christian blood as well.

this is sad

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Not what the poster said

Rini said, "Europeans lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them in a bad light! Never!"

The same could be said about every group of people the world round. To assume positive attitudes on Europeans is overly optimistic. People are people.

Yes, Europe might be soaked in Christian blood, but as a whole, they have mistreated the Jewish people with unusual and unprecedented abuse.

[bluesoul]

10. "To assume positive attitudes on Europeans is overly optimistic"

SO Europeans are by default negative people and inclined to hate Jews? Your prejudice and demonizing Europeans amazes me. This is not just ignorance. But trying to discredit anyone that is not in line with Sharon and his policy and calling them "anti-semitic" merely for trying to be even-handed as opposed to being unconditionally supportiv of Israel (US policy)...

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Reading my post

Perhaps you ought to go back and try it again. I'll even make it easy and just focus on the first two graphs:

Rini said, "Europeans lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them in a bad light! Never!"

The same could be said about every group of people the world round. To assume positive attitudes on Europeans is overly optimistic. People are people.

For those of you playing at home, that makes it clear that Europeans are NOT demonized, but one should NOT naturally assume they are good either.

[Paschall]

26. "The same could be said about every group of people the world round."

So we agree, rini's claim is factually meaningless.

And by singling out Europeans for this overly broad judgement, rini is expressing her anti-European bigotry.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Clearly we SHOULD agree, clearly we don't

Rini's comment was that to assume Europeans NEVER lie or such is ridiculous.

That is correct.

As for singling out Europeans, they have done so themselves by hundreds of years of rampant anti-Semitism.

[Paschall]

34. rini singled out Europeans on the topic of lies

Not on the issue of anti-Semitism.

Further she painted all Europeans with her broad brush, which is clearly an expression of her anti-European bigotry.

Similarly, by slurring all Europeans as anti-Semitic you have done the same.

Your remark is thus not only off-topic, but also an expression of anti-European bigotry.

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. All Europeans are NOT anti-Semitic

nor have I painted them so. But their history shows a great deal of anti-Semitic actions up to and including today. It is not bigotry to point out that the history of a people (or numerous peoples in this case) and the history of nations impacts current events. Nor is it off topic when discussing the actions of the EU.

Nor did Rini paint them all as liars, no matter how many times you say so.

[Paschall]

42. So are you changing your tune?

You've said explicitly, and repeated by implication numerous times, that Europeans are "inherently anti-Semitic," echoing a line we recently heard from Ariel Sharon.

I'm sure you remember that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Nope you are misreading

Europe has a HUGE history of anti-Semitism and their actions and non-actions need to be analyzed in that regard.

[Jim Sagle]

45. Actually you are just pulling nits out of some nether region.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. News from someone playing at home...

The same could be said about every group of people the world round.

Oh, okay. Then you won't have any problem in the future if someone were to say things along the lines of: 'Jews lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them in a bad light! Never'? Strangely enough, I would have massive problems with that, exactly the same way as I have problems with someone making nasty, untrue negative stereotypes about an entire group of people...

Or, you can try this one. 'Americans lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them in a bad light! Never'' Believe me, if you have no problem with the stereotyping of an entire people, I can indulge you with some more about Americans. And you won't be able to say a word about it because according to you it's okay to negatively stereotype an entire group of people...

See, the thing is people are people. In any group of people there's a vastly diverse range of good and bad, ignorant and informed, and any time that someone repeatedly paints a negative and ugly picture of a group of people, it's pretty safe to say those brush-strokes are painted in a shade of High Sheen Bigotry...

For this person playing at home who's read other threads where stereotyping of Europeans has been the day's entertainment, it's clear that Europeans are being demonised. It doesn't take much in the brain-cell department to realise that as there's always been disagreement on what Europe actually is, for someone to make sweeping negative statements about Europeans as though they all must be good or they all must be bad, and that Europeans are unlike Americans or Australians or Canadians and all think as one in a seething mass of 'institutionalised anti-semitism', that there's some degree of possibly intentional ignorance about Europe going on....

Violet...
V

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. The day's entertainment

Wow, sometimes you baffle me. Rini made a point about assuming Europeans never lie. The point is correct. Of course they lie.

Every group in the world lies -- sometime or another. However, Europeans could easily just be covering up hundreds of years of horrific behavior and that does give them a justification for such lying.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Why do I baffle you?

Rini didn't say anything about any assumption that 'Europeans never lie'. Rini painted an ugly and negative stereotype of Europeans...

There was nothing particularly baffling about my post. Care to explain what it was you didn't understand? You don't think it's okay to make sweeping negative stereotypes of Jews and Americans, but it's okay to do so about Europeans based on nothing more than ignorance? You don't understand the difference between negative and positive stereotyping? If every group in the world lies, why are you and rini singling out Europeans the way you are?

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. Rini's comment

Rini said, "Europeans lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them in a bad light! Never!"

Of course Europeans lie, probably at times when it is in their best interest to do so. So what?

My bafflement stems from the endless attempt to make a molehill out of something far less than that.

[Name removed]

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[Jim Sagle]

48. Time for a Foster's.

:beer:

Burrppp!!!!

:boring:

[Name removed]

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[Noon_Blue_Apples]

58. spin that web

yes we agree what he said, "Europeans lie"

"The same could be said about every group of people the world round. To assume positive attitudes on Europeans is overly optimistic. People are people." No shit that us what I stated "who doesn't"- you are a hypocrite. but to assume negative attitues regarding europeans is more valid?

"Yes, Europe might be soaked in Christian blood, but as a whole, they have mistreated the Jewish people with unusual and unprecedented abuse." - nice forked tongue with what you state above.

Sorry, but again you are wrong.

[bluesoul]

59. I can't believe

the stuff some are pulling here. I must be living on a different Planet that is called Europe though ;)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Not necessarily born with it

But nations and peoples have wonderful habits of sticking with their attitudes. So when Germany (Holocaust), Spain (Inquisition), France (Vichy helping Hitler), Italy (part of the Axis) and the rest of Europe (a fair amount of help for the Axis and not a lot of governmental opposition. Not to mention hundreds of years of horrible actions against the Jewish people) all get together and do something, their history hangs on them like a stench.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Paschall]

18. Of course...

...there's also...

• Toledo's large and prized Jewish population that prospered for centuries until the Expulsion
• The granting of full citizenship rights to Jews during the French Revolution
• Napoleon's naming France the homeland of the Jews when he couldn't capture Palestine
• The election of Jewish prime ministers in France (you'll note there's never been a Jew elected to the US presidency)
• The election of a Jew to the first presidency of the European Parliament (you'll note there's never been a Jew elected as Speaker of the US House of Representatives)
• Thessaloniki's Jewish-majority population for hundreds of years until the Nazis
• Sarajevo's ("the Jewish homeland of the Balkans") multi-ethnic population before the collapse of Yugoslavia
• Istambul's welcoming of the Jews after the Expulsion
• King Juan Carlos's offering Yugoslavian Jews Spanish nationality when Yuglosavia fell apart in the 1990s
• Passage of anti-hate crime laws in Europe immediately after WWII, which prevent publication of Holocaust denials or justifications for ethnic cleansing (both of which are still tolerated in the United States)
• The creation of the European Centre for Monitoring of Racism and Xenophobia itself (no such official watchdog agency exists in the United States)

Shall I go on?

And then, too, there is the German-American Bund, and the American Silver Shirts, the KKK, Knights of Columbus, etc.

But, again, your posts on the history of anti-Semitism in Europe are a diversion from the subject at hand, Muddle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. We could cite and counter cite all day

But the reality is that Europeans lead the pack in the anti-Semitic history department.

[Paschall]

37. The real truth is that...

...in the history department PERIOD Europeans lead the ("developed") world.

As I've said elsewhere, if America were 3000+ years old, I'm sure we'd be able to compare it to Europe more equitably. But since that is not the case, comparing the US to Europe as your Europe bashing implicitly does, is not apropos.

[rini]

22. Once again

European anti-semitism is not a genetic trait; but it is institutionalized.

[bluesoul]

23. It is NOT institutionalized

Some cases do not prove anything. That is the same as saying that racism in the USA is institutionalized...

That's just BS, sorry Rini ;)

[rini]

43. It is a sad but true thing

racism in my country is institutionalized. Thank goodness, decent people are fighting and winning the war against bigots. Mainly, IMO, because we have looked it in the face and seen the erros of our ways. I use the term our because no one is free of some type of prejudice, either pro or con.

Think about what you say or think about teenagers.......

[Paschall]

24. Can you please document this claim?

Links please.

And can you please explain how your claim is not belied by the real insitutional/legislative measures to combat anti-Semitism in Europe which I mention in my Post 18.

Finally, can you please explain the relevance of your post to this thread?

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Europeans

Yes, Europeans have a less than stellar history in dealing with the Jewish people. True.

As for the stereotype, all Rini said was, "Europeans lie, make excuses, cover up stuff that might put them in a bad light! Never!" That puts Europeans in the same category as the rest of the world. They lie sometimes. Wow!

As for staying on subject, when we talk Europeans, their history of abuse toward the Jewish people IS on point.

[Paschall]

19. No

The subject of this thread is a report published in the Financial Times and its rebuttal by the European Centre for Monitoring of Racism and Xenophobia regarding a study of contemporary anti-Semitism.

The Inquisition (13th-16th centuries) is hardly relevant. Not to mention that the majority of the victims of the Inquisition were Protestants... and Catholics themselves.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. What a nation has done in the past IS relevant

To what it does now.

[Paschall]

40. Which may be why hate-crime legislation...

...designed to protect Jews from anti-Semitic attacks is prevalant across Europe.

As I mention, this is not the case in the US, where Holocaust deniers and justifications of ethnic cleansing are actually protected by the law.

But, again, this has nothing to do with the controversy over the publication of this EU report... a subject you've so far failed to address.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. No doubt

Hate crime legislation IS an ATTEMPT to fix the problem. But based on the swastika attack today as an example, clearly, the problem is not fixed.

Holocaust deniers SHOULD be protected by the law. Germany goes too far in my opinion on that one. If you make something too forbidden, it increases its attraction.

As for the EU report, their failure to post it needs the historical context of hundreds of years of European anti-Semitism. To think that there might be an increase in such activity is a scary concept.

[bluesoul]

54. You can NEVER prevent

every such act from happening Muddle, that is ludicrous. How can you know what some mad person is up to (like the Columbine shootings)..

If you could this would be a perfect world with no crime and no bad things happening..

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. True

You can never prevent one such act. But when a whole bunch of them occur, there is an institutional problem.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. I think America is more like Europe in those dark days

We have religious superstition, large disparities in Wealth, and poor educations system for poor people. But you Likud supporters don't hold it against the religious right apparently, even though most hold blatently antisemitic views unlike modern Europe.

[Jim Sagle]

49. The truth is not a meme.

[Classical_Liberal]

20. They have a good education system now and

are less likely to be antisemitic then Americans, particularly Christian Zionists.

[tinnypriv]

6. "Europeans lie"

Sounds kinda like Marty Peretz with his "Arabs lie", line. :eyes:

[Paschall]

25. rini, how do you feel about the lies ShrubCo told...

...to justify the invasion of Iraq? And how do you feel about the thousands of deaths those lies have caused?

Also, how do you feel about Prescott Bush's (George's grandfather) conviction under the Trading With the Enemy provisions of US law for illegal war-profiteering during the Nazi regime?

[rini]

57. I'm sorry

I have no idea what you are trying to say? Are all these post
a)agreeing with me that Europeans wouldn't lie
b) disagreeing with me?

finally, what in the world does Dubbya have to do with this thread?

Please clue me in.

[Paschall]

12. They've published a comparable report every year since the EUMC...

...was created.

What makes you assume they won't publish this one?

And why would you assume the Financial Times stories are accurate? Actually, if this EU rebuttal proves true, it wouldn't be the firs time that the anti-EU press in Europe has been caught publishing false/misleading information about the Union. Far from it.

[Jim Sagle]

52. Because the FT is reliable.

[Lithos]

60. Locking

I think I got everything cleaned up.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground