Palestinian kills Israeli family: reports

[bemildred]

A Palestinian has killed five Israelis in the same family, including a baby and a toddler, in an attack in the West Bank.

An Israeli army spokeswoman confirmed to AFP that a Palestinian got into the Itamar settlement near Nablus in the north of the West Bank and attacked a family.

According to the YNet news website, the victims were a baby, two children aged three and 11 years old, and their parents.
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Palestinian security sources told AFP that Israeli soldiers had deployed in the region and said an army helicopter was flying over the area of the attack.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/palestinian-kills-israeli-family-reports-20110312-1brxg.html

[aquart]

1. I'm sure he felt perfectly justified.

[azurnoir]

2. That is horrible that sort of violence is never justified

no matter who does it

[bemildred]

4. Nothing rational about it, yes.

Killing just leads to more killing.

[oberliner]

5. Especially stabbing a months-old baby

I don't understand how a human being can be capable of doing that.

[bemildred]

6. I don't understand how a human being can bomb months-old babies either.

Or shoot them, or starve them, etc. Or anybody really. Similarly dehumanization at work, and similarly irrational.

[oberliner]

7. Seriously? You must not know (or understand) anyone in the military then

Anyone who joins the military understand that there might be civilian casualties in any military operation.

I think it is absolutely much different to launch bombs from a distance, believing that you are hitting military targets, without seeing or knowing firsthand who or what you might actually be hitting instead.

To physically stab a baby with a knife in a deliberate attempt to kill the infant, and to most likely see the baby die in front of you by your own hand is an entirely different sort of experience.

[bemildred]

8. Yes, I've heard that self-serving bullshit before. nt

[elias7]

12. Nuance problems? Or just too partisan?

[bemildred]

22. You think if you can bullshit yourself into pretending you don't really know

what you are doing, then that somehow make killing dogs, women, and children in their sleep OK? What is subtle about that?

[shira]

23. You be the pilot then...

Rockets are being launched into your country from areas you're about to bomb. Areas that your military has texted, phoned, and dropped leaflets over - ordering all civilians to evacuate.

Now you can choose not to carry out your orders and allow the militants there to launch away at children in your own nation or you carry out your orders attempting to stop the onslaught.

What do you do?

[bemildred]

25. You refuse, as you would want the knife artist in the OP to refuse.

Duh?

[shira]

33. Refuse to defend your children? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

91. Most people can defend their children without dropping bombs and killing other children n/t

[shira]

113. It's not so easy when the shooter deliberately hides behind other children. n/t

[subsuelo]

always excuses. n/t

[subsuelo]

114. always excuses. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

115. No-one was shooting when the IDF bombed an apartment complex...

Children were killed that night, and no-one was hiding behind them. Apart from that, even if someone was actually hiding behind a child, only a sick person would use that to justify the murder of children...

[bemildred]

26. PS: your premise is wrong, bombing apartments does nothing to defend Israel.

It embarrasses, degrades, and delegitimizes it, just as this knife attack affects the Palestinian cause.

[shira]

32. Your choice is to allow Israeli children to be murdered by rocketeers launching from apartments?

I'm failing to see how that's more humane.

[bemildred]

36. I fail to see how killing children justifies killing children, yes. nt

[shira]

37. There's no equivalency b/w responsible self-defense and intentional murder.

No society or court system in the world's history equates the two like you are attempting to do.

Also, to refuse to protect innocents from evil is itself evil.

[bemildred]

38. Tsk, hit a nerve did I? nt

[shira]

39. Your position is indefensible. n/t

[bemildred]

40. Well it has been a pleasure chatting with you, but I really have to go now.

Keep up the good work.
:hi:

[houstonintc]

45. Welcome to conflict...

The IDF is charged with ensuring the safety of Israeli children, not the ones under the guardianship of Palestine.

Likewise this man acted out over his own tribe's perceived needs.

[bemildred]

46. They don't have a perp or a motive yet, that I know of, so that's all speculation,

as far as whose "perceived needs" were being addressed here, but in any case I would wager that that the perp, if he was Palestinian, acted out of hatred, not some rational political motive. There is no rational Palestinian political motive to be served by this sort of atrocity.

[houstonintc]

58. That is how it will be perceived...

I doubt rationality had anything to do with it. Though i'd go so far as to say the fact that the family was the "other" served to make it easier to do.

[bemildred]

60. No doubt about that. nt

[shaayecanaan]

59. Does this work in reverse?

If Hezbollah sends a text message to everyone in Haifa urging them to leave, does that absolve them of responsibility should civilians be killed by their artillery?

[oberliner]

19. Conscientious objector?

Or were you not of age during the draft?

[bemildred]

24. The military is not some separate moral universe where different rules apply.

Morality is something you do, or don't do, it isn't a propaganda effort, and being in the military does not buy you anything, it just means you got sucked into the machine. The deity on the mountain, when he handed down the ten commandments, didn't add some codicil to the effect that people in the military are exempt.

[provis99]

43. actually, separate morality applies in the military.

Inter arma enim silent leges.

[bemildred]

51. De gustibus non est disputandem. nt

[oberliner]

52. So you were a conscientious objector?

Or were you too young for the draft?

[bemildred]

53. That's it, go for the personal attack.

:popcorn:

[oberliner]

54. No personal attack

Curious to know what your own experience was with respect to serving in the military.

Many people have shared some of their own background - it helps to shed some light on where folks are coming from.

[bemildred]

55. Good. nt

[bemildred]

56. I mean, come come, I have people here getting after me for saying that

bombing an apartment building with people living in it is a bad thing, immoral, for suggesting that one could actually refuse to carry out such an order. How serious do you want me to take this? I feel like I'm in a nuthouse already.

[oberliner]

62. Wasn't me

We may disagree on certain issues, but I certainly would not get at you for making a statement like that.

[bemildred]

64. Well, OK then, I find it very understandable that it is easier to bomb a city

than to walk through and shoot everyone by hand. I used to wonder when reading about Genghis Khan or Tamurlane whether the soldiers would get tired of hacking heads off after the first 100,000 or so ...

[azurnoir]

14. yes killing from a distant is so much cleaner n/t

[oberliner]

16. Killing is killing - no matter the distance

Deliberately killing civilians ought to be unacceptable (though a look around the world seems to show that it is not) to any human being of conscience.

How a person can slit a three-month old baby's throat is beyond my understanding.

Do you have any family that served in the military?

[azurnoir]

28. yes my brother served in Vietnam and Cambodia

of the later all he has ever said "we brought Armageddon" to "Paradise", he has never revealed details to anyone save our Dad who was Army Corp of Engineers during WW2, whatever he told him it seemed to negatively impact his feeling towards both the war and the US military in general

[oberliner]

68. Thank you for sharing that

I always appreciate when posters are willing to provide personal stories to illustrate their perspective.

[shira]

15. What do you think about Palestinians celebrating this horrible attack?

http://cifwatch.com/2011/03/12/what-the-guardian-wont-report-more-photos-of-gazans-in-rafah-celebrating-deadly-terrorist-attack-in-itamar/

Just curious.

[oberliner]

17. Has Hamas issued a statement condeming or supporting this attack?

May have missed it.

[shira]

21. Hamas: PA arrested 3 of our activists over Itamar attack

Hamas movement accused the Palestinian Authority of arresting three of its activists from Qalqilya and Jenin following the terror attack in the West Bank settlement of Itamar.

"The report of five murdered Israelis is not enough to punish someone," stated Hamas Spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri, adding, "However, we in the Hamas completely support the resistance against settlers who murder and use crime and terror against the Palestinian people under the auspices of the Israeli occupation soldiers." (Elior Levy)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041081,00.html

[oberliner]

69. Typically ugly remarks

They are nothing if not consistent.

[Hugabear]

87. I don't see any Palestinians celebrating the attack in those photos

I see two photos that show food being handed out. There's nothing in the photos to suggest any sort of context.

[oberliner]

3. Palestinian premier condemns killing of Israeli family

Ramallah - Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad Saturday condemned an attack the night before in an Israeli settlement in the north West Bank that left five Israelis from the same family dead.

An assailant stabbed the victims to death in the settlement of Itamar, near the West Bank city of Nablus. The attacker, believed to be Palestinian, fled the scene and the army has conducted heavy searches for him in Palestinian villages near the settlement.

The attack left dead two parents and three of their children, aged 11, 3 and 3 months, according to local media. Three other children were able to flee to a neighbour's home.

'There ought to be no doubt as to where we stand on violence,' said Fayyad in a statement to reporters. 'We reject it, and we always condemned it,' he said.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1625546.php/Palestinian-premier-condemns-killing-of-Israeli-family

[bemildred]

9. U.S. condemns terrorist attack in West Bank settlement

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Saturday that she was shocked and deeply saddened by the killing of five Israeli family members in the West Bank.

"To kill three innocent children and their parents while they sleep is an inhuman crime for which there can be no justification," said Clinton. "The murderers must be found and brought to justice."

Earlier Saturday, the United States called the killing a terrorist attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/u-s-condemns-terrorist-attack-in-west-bank-settlement-1.348758

[oberliner]

10. Fogel family identified as victims of West Bank settlement attack

The names of the five family members who were killed in the West Bank settlement of Itamar were released Saturday.

The victims are Udi Fogel, 37, Ruth Fogel, 36, Yoav Fogel, 10, four-year-old Elad Fogel, and three-months old Hadas Fogel.

The Fogel family was killed Friday night when a suspected terrorist broke into their home in the West Bank settlement of Itamar and stabbed them all to death.

According to police, the suspect broke into the house armed with a knife and stabbed parents Udi and Ruth, along with three of their children, Yoav, Elad, and Hadas Fogel. Magen David Adom rescue services arrived at the scene and found them all dead.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/fogel-family-identified-as-victims-of-west-bank-settlement-attack-1.348788

[Kurska]

11. Jews living in the "wrong place" murdered.

I've heard this tale before.

[azurnoir]

13. and so it begins

Israel has approved the construction of hundreds of settler homes in the West Bank, the prime minister's office said Sunday in a stern political message to the Palestinians after three children and their parents were murdered in a remote settlement over the weekend.

Israeli officials suspect Palestinian militants carried out the deadly attack, which could cool any Israeli plans to propose a new peace initiative. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had been expected to deliver a major policy speech soon, possibly proposing a Palestinian state within temporary borders as a way out of a longstanding negotiations impasse.

The construction, approved Saturday night by the Cabinet's ministerial team on settlements, would take place in major settlement blocs that Israel expects to hold on to in any final peace deal, the prime minister's office said in a text message to reporters. Netanyahu is a member of that team.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

[oberliner]

18. Not the beginning, merely a continuation

Where are the brave leaders willing to take risks for peace?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. this eye for an eye thing seems so old,

olde testament, I mean.

Bravery would mean stopping, unilaterally, and not throwing the second punch. But neither side has that ability. The wounds are too deep, too recent, and too laced in historical events.

There are no winners here. Just many, many losers.

[bemildred]

27. Hey kid.

Can we hijack a thread or what?
:hi:

[azurnoir]

29. sorry it seemed 'crass' to post it as a thread

I actually wasn't sure to post it at all

[bemildred]

30. Oh, it's OK, I am not criticizing you, I did the same, though it is my thread.

I was OK to let it sit until the moral high-dudgeon about killing babies started.

[azurnoir]

34. however there is a ray of hope here in these words

Motti Fogel, brother of Udi Fogel, eulogized his younger brother but warned that his death cannot be used as a tool in a national struggle.

"All of the slogans we hear are trying to efface the simple fact that you're dead, and nothing can efface that. This funeral has to be a private affair," Fogel said, adding: "A man dies to himself, to his children. Udi, you are no a national event. You're horrible death mustn't make your life into a tool."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/protesters-block-junctions-across-israel-in-response-to-itamar-attack-1.348958

[bemildred]

35. Now that's a mensch. nt

[bemildred]

49. Mr Fogel seems to have been prescient in his concerns.

The alacrity with which this is being taken up as a political football ...

[oberliner]

61. "A human being is not capable of something like that"

"A human being is not capable of something like that," Abbas said in an interview with Israel Radio on Monday. "Scenes like these - the murder of infants and children and a woman slaughtered - cause any person endowed with humanity to hurt and to cry."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/abbas-itamar-attack-was-despicable-immoral-and-inhuman-1.349098

[bemildred]

63. Unfortunately, he is quite incorrect. nt

[oberliner]

67. Not sure about that

Perhaps he is defining "human being" differently?

[bemildred]

70. History is littered with atrocity.

So is archeology, so is anthropology. The notion that this sort of thing is inhuman may be useful as a rhetorical point or an metaphor, but the evidence shows that violence is characteristic of humans and endemic among human societies.

[oberliner]

72. Modern day infanticide is relatively uncommon

At least I hope it is. It could just be under-reported.

[bemildred]

79. In China, India, sex selection means there are too many males

Sex selection in parts of China and India will produce a 10% to 20% excess in males in the next 20 years, according to a new study.

Many couples in China, India and South Korea prefer sons. This cultural pattern combined with the use of ultrasound technology for sex selection over the past two decades has produced the shift, said the authors of an analysis published Monday in the Journal of the Canadian Medical Assn. In nature, about 105 males are born to every 100 females. However, that ratio has exceeded 130 to 100 in several Chinese provinces. In India, some areas have sex ratios of 125 males to 100 females.

The study showed that birth order is influencing the trend. If the first- or second-born children are girls, sex selection is often used to ensure the third child is male. All of these countries have laws against sex-selective abortion, but the laws are rarely enforced.

The trend is not without major social implications. Many more men will be unable to marry, said the authors of the study, from the University College London Centre for International Health and Development. Violence, crime and psychological problems are expected to rise because of the imbalance. The problem cannot be ignored, they wrote.

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-sex-selection-20110314,0,4492217.story

This is not really what I am talking about, I am talking about violence, not infanticide, abortion, etc. However ...

[oberliner]

81. Is abortion akin to murdering a 3 month old baby?

If that isn't what you are suggesting, then I am not sure that I see the purpose of this post.

Having an abortion and killing someone else's infant child seem to not be related to one another.

Not to go too far off track, but my argument (which you don't seem to agree with) is that slitting a baby's throat is particularly shocking and despicable even by the standards of the generally violent global society in which we live.

[bemildred]

82. You brought up infanticide, not me. I'm talking about violence.

I was just trying to enlighten you about how things are WRT that subject (infanticide) in the modern world.

You want to obsess about the extra nastiness associated with killing an infant, not I. I think the fact that the infant was there was incidental, the perp was just killing everybody present.

I am saying that the problem of violence will not be dealt with by means of pretensions by one group or another that they would never do such a thing, but their enemies would. The potential of violence is not a cultural trait. The people that annoy me when this subject comes up are the ones that pretend their shit does not stink. Israelis make a fetish of their propensity for violence, for their "military excellence", on the one hand, and on the other hand babble about being the most moral army. Violence is not moral, ever. At best it is necessary, expedient, it is never moral. OK?

[bemildred]

83. This started out with a statement that " a human being is not capable of something like that".

I am saying that human beings do exactly that all the time.

[oberliner]

84. Human beings do not do exactly that all the time

That is precisely where I (and Abbas, apparently) am disagreeing with you. That is a rare and inexplicable act beyond the everyday violence of the modern world today.

I am not sure what the abortion article has to do with whether or not killing a three-month old baby is exceptionally despicable.

I also do not agree with your notion about how whoever killed the baby was just killing whoever was there and thus, unsurprisingly, killed the baby.

I agree with Abbas that even someone who had planned to murder a settler family for whatever reason might have the decency to spare an infant.

Even those who support "resistance" and believe that settlers are "legitimate targets" have essentially said as much.

[bemildred]

85. See, I do have the right issue, the point of disagreement.

You seem to be confusing condemnation of this atrocity, which I agree with, with the notion that it is rare, which it is not. Children are beaten and killed every day in every country in the World. Infants are "disposed of" every day in every country in the world. Violence is equal opportunity. It's all the same.

Abbas is a self-serving political hack and he is expressing trite cliches.

I think the argument is clear enough, so I'm done.

[oberliner]

86. It is definitely rare

On the date that of this baby's murder, 3.11.2011, how many other Israeli or Palestinian infants were murdered?

How about during the week prior to this incident? How many Israeli or Palestinian infants were murdered during that time period?

What about the total for the months of February and March?

[Violet_Crumble]

88. No, it's not rare. Bemildred said around the world, and you focused on Israel/Palestine...

I can think of several equally brutal murders of entire families that include small children here in Australia over the past 12 months. To claim that the murdering or abuse of children is a rare thing around the world is totally ridiculous. Why try to argue something so stupid?

[azurnoir]

89. it's happened before in Israel too October 2009

Family of 6 slain in central Israel

The bodies of six people, including two children, were found in a torched apartment in central Israel's Rishon Lezion's Nordau Street Saturday.

Mass emergency, Fire and Rescue and police forces were called to the scene of the fire in the early hours of the morning. The flames were soon extinguished, but paramedics had no choice but to pronounce six individuals found at the apartment dead at the scene.

The victims were identified as Eduard Ushrenko and his wife Ludmila (56), their son Demetri (32), his wife Tatiana (28) and their two children, Revital (3) and Netanel (four months)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3791139,00.html

all 6 were stabbed to death and their home set on fire, the perps turned out to be former employee's of the family, Russians I believe

[Violet_Crumble]

90. Yes, and I also recall a small child being murdered and disposed of in a suitcase...

I'm sure Israel is every bit as prone to children being murdered as anywhere else in the world...

[azurnoir]

92. the child in a suitcase actually 2 of them happened in the US

less than 2 weeks ago

[bemildred]

93. There are plenty, here, almost anywhere.

Maybe in Iceland things are better.

From what I can tell Israel is as bad or worse than the USA, poverty, the fundy religious element; and the USA really sucks for a "developed" country.

But this is all a thread-hijack that I pursued when the extra special evil of killing the infant came up.

I really hope they catch the perp so we can find out what he/she was "thinking". The whole thing smells a bit weird.

[oberliner]

96. Seemed to have corrected your original incorrect claim

Much appreciated!

What do you think smells weird?

[bemildred]

97. The iron grip of your logic had crushed my hyperbole.

As for weirdness, if I knew, I would say, that is why I used the metaphor "smell".

Do you find nothing strange about it now, after arguing so strenuously that it was "rare"?

[oberliner]

98. Hehe - thanks!

Your sarcasm is quite enjoyable.

I am curious if your reference to something smelling weird is a suggestion that maybe the attack wasn't carried out by Palestinians?

Some online sources seem to be indicating that the attacker may have been a foreign worker disgruntled about wages.

Is that something you've come across?

[bemildred]

99. No that's not it.

If they had a perp and a motive, Palestinian or not, that would not be weird.

There is no perp and no motive, no notes, claims of responsibility, etc. that I know of, just the usual babble from politicians. The security people are working hard (detaining lots of peons) and seem to have nothing. Usually when a massacre like this occurs it does not remain a mystery who did it or why. It was a big mess, there should be lots of evidence, and people who do such things tend to act out in other ways too, they are not being "reasonable" at the time. It is no doubt true that we out here in TV-land are not being told everything. Nevertheless, if they had something, we would be told, because they must be under a lot of pressure to solve it.

I do not consider it a done deal that the perp was Palestinian, AFAIK it's all speculation. If you know of any evidence as to the perp or his/her motives, I'd be interested.

I think showing those pictures around shows a "rare" lack of respect for the dead in pursuit of propaganda points.

[oberliner]

100. Interesting

Good points. There is a "gag order" in place on this investigation so maybe that is why nothing has leaked out. Also, there was a claim of responsibility from a Palestinian group, but it does not appear to have been taken very seriously.

I don't think there is anything wrong with releasing the photos if the surviving members of the family do not object. I've seen photos of victims of violence in a variety of different circumstances (including Palestinian victims of Israeli violence), and I think it helps people to understand the reality of the situation(s).

[bemildred]

101. I saw one claim it as al Aqsa, but that appeared to be internet trolling.

I've seen lots of grisly stuff, and I think it's disrespectful of the dead. Would you want to be seen like that? Is that how you want to be remembered? Remember the 4 guys hanging from the bridge in Fallujah? Is that how you want your friends and relations to see you?

[azurnoir]

102. Fatah militants: Killing children unacceptable

Published Monday 14/03/2011 (updated) 15/03/2011 14:04


Fatah's Al-Aqsa Brigades came under scrutiny after an offshoot with loose affiliation going by the "Imad Mughniyya Group" sent a statement to media outlets claiming to have carried out the attack, but details from the statement did not match statements from investigators. Members of the group in Gaza later denied any involvement.

The loose connection with the Al-Aqsa brigades saw some news reports point fingers at the group, prompting the release of a statement saying "All statements released by other groups claiming they are affiliated to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades under any names, are false and unacceptable."

The brigades went on to condemn the wave of settler attacks targeting Palestinians, saying "Our people are encountering unprecedented frantic attacks by mobs of settlers," adding that the attacks were creating an increasingly unstable situation in the West Bank as the rest of the Arab world was in turmoil.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=368441

[oberliner]

103. Not sure what that means

What do you mean when you say that claim was "internet trolling"?

Anyway, you are right, it is a mystery at this point.

With respect to your other comments, we just disagree, but I think it is fair to say that it is a matter of personal opinion.

[bemildred]

104. Here is one today:

5th child victim killed in Mexico drug violence

ACAPULCO, Mexico (AP) — Police early Thursday found the body of a 4-year-old girl who had been shot in the chest — the fifth child killed in drug-related violence in this Mexican resort city in less than a week.

The child was in a car next to a woman who had been shot three times in the back, Guerrero state police said in a statement. Police did not release the identities of the victims or discuss a possible motive for their slayings.

At least five young people have died in drug violence in Acapulco since Sunday, including a 2-year-old boy and a 6-year-old boy killed with an elderly woman who tried to shield them when gunmen opened fire at their home.

Police found more than 200 shell casings at the scene in a poor neighborhood in Acapulco, which has been the scene of bloody drug cartel turf battles. Witnesses told police a man being chased ran inside the house minutes before gunmen started shooting. It was not clear what happened to the man.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h0dZXRuEpYRtYcarDvqJc5EqJSWg?docId=1c2e067fd26a46bbbcd6d08a6dd227a6

[oberliner]

105. Actually, no

Tragic though those incidents are - none of the children involved were infants like the one who was killed in Itamar (four months old).

The deliberate murder of an infant is very rare.

Almost unheard of, really, in most of the world in this day and age (thankfully).

[bemildred]

106. I knew there would be something that made it different.

I guess being shot in the chest is just not the same as getting your throat cut too. And five months old is not the same as four months old, and so on. And five in one week in one place, well that it exceptional too, isn't it?

[oberliner]

95. Thank you for posting that

It was a shockingly rare and horrific incident in 2009, much like the more recent one.

Hardly "every day in every country in the world" - as the poster claimed.

[oberliner]

94. Yes it is definitely rare. And the poster said "every day in every country in the world"

"Every day in every country in the world" means that around 30 Israeli and/or Palestinian infants would have been murdered in the month of February.

If the "every day in every country in the world" statement is true, the poster should be able to provide evidence of daily murders of children in every country in the world (Israel, for one).

[Violet_Crumble]

107. No, it's not rare at all. The murder of children and infants is unfortunately rather common...

And that's a global thing. Just coz something might not happen in one particular spot every single day doesn't make it rare....

Y'know, there isn't some age in months when it suddenly becomes less appalling that a child is murdered. That's not minimising the horrific way those three children were murdered recently, of course, it's that children come to horrific ends all the time at the hands of adults. I don't feel a need to create a ranking of which murders are worse than others because they're all absolutely horrific and should never have happened. It doesn't involve slit throats or stabbings, and the victim was 4 years old, but I'm deeply horrified by the murder of a child here where the father was driving the kids around Melbourne while he was on the phone to the mother threatening to kill the kids. He told his 4yr old daughter to move to the front seat, stopped the car in the middle of the Westgate Bridge, walked round to the passenger seat, picked his 4yr old up and threw her over the bridge.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/last-moments-of-darcey-freeman/2009/01/29/1232818637176.html

That's what keeps me awake at night after reading the police account of what her six year old brother said about witnessing his sister's murder. That's why I'd never have a cut-off point when it comes to children, which based on their age ranks their murders as more or less abhorrent. It just doesn't work that way...

[azurnoir]

108. ot but I read your link

the last sentence said something about the police being traumatized by the events and I am sad to say that here in the US this kind of thing happens often enough that police do not seem traumatized by it, in my area last week a women fighting with her boyfriend slammed her 18 day old baby into a snow bank and left her there, luckily there were witnesses who rescued the baby it was quite cold out the babies body temperature was 95 degrees when she got to the ER, last summer a women threw two of children both toddlers off of a bridge in downtown St Paul into the Mississippi River....I believe they both drowned

[Violet_Crumble]

116. Yep, that's why I've got no time for the 'it's incredibly rare' argument...

And I've got even less time for any sort of argument that makes out somehow the murder of a child is less horrific than that of an infant...

[oberliner]

109. Absolutely totally rare and nearly unheard of in most of the world

The murder of an infant is front page news on the rare occasions when it happens.

Even the murder of a child who isn't an infant is rare enough to make the news, as is evidenced by the post above about the children who were killed in Mexico.

[azurnoir]

110. with all due respect the sad fact is it is not that rare

The murder of children is considered an abhorrent crime in the Western world; they are perceived within their communities and the state at large as being vulnerable, and therefore especially susceptible to abduction and murder. The protection of children from abuse and possible death often involves disturbing the child's family structure, as tenuous as this may be. In 2008, there were 1,494 child (under 18 years) homicides in the United States. Of those killed 1,035 were male, while 453 were female, .<1>

This page was last modified on 10 March 2011 at 20:10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_murder

[Violet_Crumble]

111. No, it's not rare at all. Children are murdered all the time...

Things don't have to be rare for them to hit the news....

[bemildred]

112. See, we have to have extra special irrational hatred here, it can't be just ordinary hatred. nt

[bemildred]

31. Brutal West Bank killings shock Israel, stir fears of renewed violence

A grisly trail of toys and blood led paramedics to the first three bodies: a mother, father and their 4-month-old infant, stabbed to death in their bed. In the next room, medics say they found the body of an 11-year-old sibling.

Finally, with growing dread, they reached the last bedroom, where a 4-year-old boy with knife wounds and a faint pulse was fighting for his life, ambulance workers said Saturday on Israel Radio. The medics worked frantically, but unsuccessfully, to resuscitate the toddler. One called it a scene of "incomprehensible horror."

The brutal killings Friday night of five Jewish settlers in the tightly guarded compound of Itamar, southeast of the West Bank city of Nablus, sent shockwaves through Israel, sparking worries of renewed violence in the Palestinian territories and heightening fears of retaliation from the Israel Defense Forces or angry settlers.

Israeli authorities suspect that the killings, the deadliest attack inside a settlement in several years, were either a strike by Palestinian militants or a revenge attack by residents of the West Bank village of Awarta, where two Palestinian teenagers were shot to death a year ago as they collected garbage near Itamar.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-settlement-killings-20110313,0,3329690.story

One can infer they don't have a perp or a motive yet.

[bemildred]

41. Gov't aggressively goes after Palestinian incitement

---

As Israel on Sunday was morning the slaughter of the five members of the Fogel family in Itamar, Palestinians from PA President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction named a town square after Dalal al-Mughrabi, the leader of the 1978 bus hijacking in which 37 Israelis were killed.

"We stand here in praise of our martyrs and in loyalty to all of the martyrs of the national movement," Fatah member and Abbas advisor Sabri Seidam said at the unveiling of a plaque showing Mughrabi cradling a rifle against a backdrop map of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The square was festooned with Palestinian flags. Around a dozen people attended the ceremony.

The square's inauguration had originally been scheduled to take place a year ago, coinciding with a visit by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, but the PA – under pressure from the US – cancelled that ceremony.

The naming of the square after Mughrabi was one of the examples of continuous incitement that Brig.-Gen. (ret.) Yossi Kuperwasser, the director general of the strategic affairs ministry, brought to the cabinet on Sunday. After months of the government largely confining discussion on Palestinian incitement to internal meetings and private discussions with international leaders, Kuperwasser brought a PowerPoint presentation of the "incitement index" he formulated to the cabinet, and the PMO – in response to the terrorist atrocity in Itamar -- issued a paper documenting recent acts of PA authorized incitement.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=211988

[bemildred]

42. Israel vows to expand settlements after stabbings

Reporting from Jerusalem

As thousands of Israelis gathered Sunday to bury five members of a family of Jewish settlers who were stabbed to death in their beds over the weekend, the government said it would respond to the attack by building an additional 500 homes in the West Bank.

Israeli security forces continued their manhunt for unknown infiltrators who broke into the heavily guarded settlement of Itamar, south of Nablus, and killed Udi and Ruth Fogel and three of their children, including an infant. The military has named no suspects, but officials are blaming Palestinian militants for the attack.

The government decision to expand housing construction in several large settlement blocs was intended to signal that Israel's presence in the West Bank will not be deterred by violence, officials said.

"This murder reminds everyone that the struggle and conflict is not about Israel's borders or about independence of a repressed nation, but a struggle for our existence," Vice Prime Minister Moshe Yaalon said at the funeral. "In this difficult hour we must rise from the rubble and do the most natural thing — continue building and developing Israel."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-settlers-funeral-20110314,0,4981914.story

[bemildred]

50. U.S.: Israel's approval of new West Bank homes counters peace efforts

Israel's continued West Bank settlement construction runs counter efforts to resume Middle East peace negotiations, a statement by the U.S. State Department said on Sunday, a day after the government approved 500 new settlement housing units as a response to deadly Itamar attack.

On Saturday, the ministerial committee on settlement affairs decided in a nighttime meeting to approve the construction of 500 new West Bank houses, a move that came in response to a deadly attack on a family of five in the settlement of Itamar on Friday.

Earlier Sunday, an aide to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said that Israel's decision to approve the construction of hundreds of housing units in several West Bank settlements was " unacceptable and we oppose it."

Nabil Abu Rudaineh also told Wafa that the "atmosphere this decision creates isn't helpful, it creates problems, and peace needs courageous decisions."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-israel-s-approval-of-new-west-bank-homes-counters-peace-efforts-1.348998

[LeftishBrit]

44. Horrible. Nothing worse than murdering children.

[bemildred]

47. Palestinians denounce Itamar murders, but lay criticism on Israel

Many Palestinian commentators have denounced the murder of five members of the Fogel family in Itamar over the weekend, but not without noting that Israel and the settlers shared some of the blame.

In Palestinian Authority newspapers and on the social network pages of private citizens, denunciations of the murder could be found alongside condemnations of Israel's approval of the construction of 400 new homes in the settlement blocs. Many writers compared the murders to the actions of the settlers themselves.

"I don't believe that the incident in Itamar is an act of resistance, but rather an act by individuals whom we condemn, in the event it was carried out by Palestinians. Stabbing children in their sleep is not a heroic act but rather that of the heartless, like some of the occupation soldiers and settlers, who murder children," Hafez Barghouti, editor-in-chief of Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, wrote on Sunday.

He added that the "real murderers in Itamar are the zealous settlers and anyone who burned a tree, vandalized the cemetery in Awarta, forced out the residents of Khirbet Yanun, took control of a plot of land or robbed an olive harvest .... The act at Itamar was a message to the occupation and to the world ... whose meaning is clear - the occupation must go."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/palestinians-denounce-itamar-murders-but-lay-criticism-on-israel-1.349021

[bemildred]

48. Settlers release bloody images taken moments after Itamar attack

The Yesha Council of settlements released on Sunday graphic images of the family that was killed in a terror attack Friday night, saying it decided on the unusual move "to show the inhuman character of the murderers."

The photographs, which were released for publication locally and internationally, show the bodies of the Fogel family members on the floor and on a blood-drenched bed. They were taken a short time after the bodies of five members of the family - two boys aged 11 and 4, a newborn girl and their parents - were discovered stabbed to death in their home in the West Bank settlement of Itamar.

Yehuda Meshi Zahav, who heads the Zaka rescue and recovery service, condemned the decision to release the images.

"For all the sorrow and pain, and for all the will to show the atrocity of the murder, we must preserve the dignity of the dead and individual privacy," he said.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/settlers-release-bloody-images-taken-moments-after-itamar-attack-1.349022

[bemildred]

57. Rallies held around country in response to Itamar attacks

Hundreds of demonstrators at major intersections across the country on Sunday evening chanted “Revenge! Revenge!” and waved national flags in response to Friday’s attack in Itamar in which terrorists killed five members of the Fogel family.

No demonstrators were arrested and no roads were blocked, police said.

The protests were organized by My Israel under the slogan “We are all Israeli, We are all settlers.”

“I came to demonstrate because they’re spilling Jewish blood, and instead of taking care of the terrorists, they’re wasting their energy demolishing homes in Gilad Farms,” Jerusalem resident Moshe Meron said at a protest at the entrance to the capital.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=211991

[bemildred]

65. Residents of Itamar settlement: 'Price tag' isn't even part of our lexicon

---

If someone is expecting a revenge attack or "price tag" – they won't find it here, at the yeshiva where Fogel taught, whose chief rabbi is Avihai Ronski, the former IDF Chief Rabbi.

"These people don't go out and demonstrate, that's not their style," says Yohanan Goldin, a 24-year-old sixth-year yeshiva student. Goldin was close to Fogel, and was part of the community security team that was called in to find that Fogel was killed.

A day and a half after the attack, Goldin feels the need to improve the public image of the community, and perhaps the yeshiva, as well. "'Price tags" are not the way of the yeshiva," he said.

Goldin's friend, fifth-year yeshiva student Itamar Brooker, says, "Anger does not interest us, people aren't hung up on that. There is pain, there is shock, but not anger. Personally, I still haven’t taken it in. A family has been stabbed to death, it will take time to register."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/residents-of-itamar-settlement-price-tag-isn-t-even-part-of-our-lexicon-1.349096

[bemildred]

66. Thousands turn out in Jerusalem for funerals of Itamar terror victims

Thousands of Israelis turned out at the Givat Shaul cemetery in Jerusalem on Sunday for the funerals of five members of the same family killed Friday night in a brutal attack in their home at the West Bank settlement of Itamar.

The Fogel family - father Udi, 37, mother Ruth, 36, 10-year-old Yoav, four-year-old Elad, and three-month-old Hadas - were all stabbed to death in their home. Two other children in the house at the time, were not hurt in the attack.

The family's 12-year-old daughter, who was at a youth group event, returned home at approximately midnight but could not gain access to the house. With the help of a neighbor, they managed to open the door and discovered the bodies of the five.

---

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, visiting relatives of the victims of the Itamar terror attack following the funeral, said security forces were doing their utmost to locate the perpetrator's of Friday's attacks, referring to the cabinet's decision to approve new West Bank homes by saying: "They shoot, and we build."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/thousands-turn-out-in-jerusalem-for-funerals-of-itamar-terror-victims-1.348895

[azurnoir]

71. Sources: Thai workers rounded up in Itamar

Israeli forces on Monday afternoon rounded up all Thai workers employed in the Itamar settlement, site of the murder of five members of the Fogel family, and held them for questioning, informed sources told Ma'an.

Though Palestinians have been forbidden from working in the settlements of the northern West Bank, foreign workers, mostly from Thailand and the Philippines, have been contracted for labor in the area.

Sources close to some of the Thai laborers said that all of the workers had been gathered and taken for questioning in relation to the stabbing deaths of a settler family on Friday night.

Israeli officials have refused comment on the issue. Israel's national police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told Ma'an that a gag order has been imposed on information connected to the investigation.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=368554

[oberliner]

73. Headline at the link says: "Thai workers questioned" not "rounded up"

Interesting choice of words in your version.

[azurnoir]

74. perhaps you missed it "Published yesterday (updated) 14/03/2011 20:49"

that was the headline at the time I posted the story, I cut and pasted it

given the time difference it was edited a couple hours later and to be honest has been edited more than once s I have been following the story today

[oberliner]

75. Wonder why they made the change

Perhaps the connotation was a bit much?

[azurnoir]

76. don't know they haved it several times

detained and quizzed have also been used

[oberliner]

77. Yet the version you chose to post here says "rounded up"

And in spite of seeing various updated versions, you stuck with that one and made no edit.

[azurnoir]

78. huh? the thread sank and I really did not think about it

titles change all time this was hardly calculated

[oberliner]

80. Oh ok

Ma'an appears to be as bad as Ha'aretz with changing titles. Makes things confusing sometimes when the link title doesn't match.