Israel intercepts 'arms-laden ship'

[oberliner]

Israel's navy has said it has boarded an Egypt-bound ship suspected of carrying weapons to fighters in the Gaza Strip.

In a statement the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) said it intercepted a Liberian-flagged vessel called Victoria some 200 nautical miles off the Israeli coast in the Mediterranean Sea on Tuesday.

"According to assessments, the various weaponry on-board the vessel was intended for the use of terror organisations operating in the Gaza Strip," it said, but did not describe the type of arms found on-board.

However a Hamas spokesperson has denied that the ship's contents were intended for Palestinian fighters, describing the Israeli statement as propaganda designed to damage the reputation of Hamas in the international community.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/20113151108343299.html

[dipsydoodle]

1. Is arms-laden related to

Bin Laden ? ;shrug:

[oberliner]

2. Doubtful

How about arms from Iran to Hamas?

[kayecy]

3. Did anyone mention the Irgun and their illegal arms smuggling activities?.....

The publicity by the IDF of this incident is interesting.

1) The consignment consisted of half a dozen C701 anti-ship missiles and mortar shells.....When a C107 missile was used by Hezbollah in the Lebanon war they had to have a shore-based radar station to provide the initial guidance....Does Hamas have a radar station?

2) Assuming the IDF is right and the arms were of Iranian origin, does that prove Iran supplied them?....If the IDF had found M16 rifles on board would they have concluded the US was supplying terrorists?

3) According to the IDF the arms were meant for Gaza......How was the ship supposed to land them in Gaza?......If via Egypt, it seems they were pushing their luck in expecting the Egyptian army to turn a blind eye whilst they unloaded 3 mysterious containers.

4) According to Netanyahu, some of the shells discovered were made in Israel and sold to Iran....Presumably, therefore, long past their sell-by date.

5) The lack an Iranian response could mean this was simply a case of commercial arms-dealers trying to get rid of time-expired arms in a job lot to whoever was prepared to pay.

Why waste a good opportunity to show the world how terrible Hamas and Iran are and at the same time show what clever fellows the IDF are?.......Did anyone mention the Irgun and their illegal arms smuggling activities?
.
.

[azurnoir]

4. on the M-16's I've that Israeli's living the West Bank carry them

for self protection it makes one wonder who's supplying them as they are American military equipment

[Mosby]

14. anyone can buy an M-16

The M-16 is a subtype of the civilian issue AR-15 rifle which can be bought by anyone, at least here in AZ.

[azurnoir]

16. well that is Arizona isn't it? I hear AZ doesn't observe MLK day or

day light savings time either

[azurnoir]

17. There are some differences between the ar-15 and the m-16

The AR-15 (ArmaLite Model 15<8>) is a widely owned<9> semi-automatic rifle, of which the most famous derivative is the selective fire M16-series assault rifle used by the United States military.
Standard AR-15 rifles accept detachable magazines of widely varying capacities (including 10, 20, or 30 round magazines, or 100 round drums), and have a pistol grip that protrudes beneath the stock. AR-15 rifles are highly configurable and customizable. They are commonly fitted with several accessories such as bipods, collapsing stocks, threaded barrels for the attachment of a flash suppressor, and a rail system for the attachment of vertical grips, flashlights, laser sights, telescopic sights and other accessories. The most common bipod is the folding bipod, but there is also a vertical grip with a bipod release. Barrels can come in chrome and stainless steel. The steel barrel tends to be more accurate while the chrome tends to be more durable. It is also possible to use barrels of various rates of twist. AR-15s can also be assembled with a suppressor.
This page was last modified on 15 March 2011 at 03:39

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

M16 rifle
The M16 (more formally Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16) is the United States military designation for the AR-15 rifle. Colt purchased the rights to the AR-15 from ArmaLite and currently uses that designation only for semi-automatic versions of the rifle. The M16 rifle fires the 5.56x45mm cartridge and can produce massive wounding effects when the bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue leading to fragmentation and rapid transfer of energy.<4><5><6>
The M16 entered United States Army service and was deployed for jungle warfare operations in South Vietnam in 1963,<7> becoming the standard U.S. rifle of the Vietnam War by 1969,<8> replacing the M14 rifle in that role. The U.S. Army retained the M14 in CONUS, Europe, and South Korea until 1970. Since the Vietnam War, the M16 rifle family has been the primary infantry rifle of the U.S. military. With its variants, it has been in use by 15 NATO countries, and is the most produced firearm in its caliber. The M16 is being phased out in the United States Army and is being replaced by the M4 carbine series as of 2010.<9>
This page was last modified on 15 March 2011 at 01:01.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

saying that anyone can own an m-16 is IMO rather disingenuous

[Mosby]

20. I don't think I could tell the difference, could you?

My point being that we don't know what type of rifle some settlers own, but I think it's unlikely they are buying military issue M-16s.

I just spoke to a friend who was recently in the Marines, he said there is virtually no difference between the two.

[azurnoir]

21. I just spoke to my SO who is from a military family and a weapons owner

the difference is the ar-15 is semi-automatic and the m-16 is fully automatic and can only be mistaken for each other at a great distance

[pelsar]

29. the settlers carry army issued M-16s n/t

[azurnoir]

40. so the settlers are military? what arms are the Palestinians allowed to carry? n/t

[oberliner]

5. Bizarre non-sequitur in your subject line

But in response to your points/questions:

1. Since 2006, military experts note, Iran has upgraded the C-802 in an important respect. Then, Hizballah depended on the Lebanese army's sophisticated radar for accurate targeting of the Israeli warship. For Hizballah and Hamas, Iran's manufactures have come up with a version that operates without radar. 1,000 missiles have already been delivered to Hizballah.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:76f6fe33-87ec-4a49-96be-fd20aae7a9ab

2. The commandos found booklets explaining how to use the missile in Farsi – further proof that the missiles originated in Iran.

In addition to the anti-ship missiles, the commandos also discovered 60-mm. and 120-mm. mortar shells.

The missiles use advanced radar to acquire their targets. In 2006, a Chinese-made C- 802 missile struck the INS Hanit off the coast of Beirut, killing four Israeli sailors.

“The missile is made in China and it is in the possession of the Iranians, and this adds to suspicions that it came from Iran,” Ben- Yehuda said. “This missile can threaten strategic installations near the coast and navy vessels that operate at sea.”

The IDF released pictures showing mortar shells inside crates, as well as the C-704 missiles with the word “Nasr” written on them.

http://www.jpost.com/VideoArticles/Video/Article.aspx?id=212349

3. Israel said the boat was on its way from a port in Turkey to Alexandria in Egypt, but that "Turkey is not tied to the incident in any way". (OP)

4. Source?

5. Iran denies sending weapons to Gaza

TEL AVIV, Israel, March 16 (UPI) -- Iranian military commander Maj. Gen. Ataollah Salehi denied Israeli charges a ship seized by Israeli commandos carried 50 tons of Iranian weapons.

"Israel is a regime made of lie, making lies and fabrications," Salehi told the Iranian state news agency IRNA Wednesday.

"The Zionist regime will drown in the waters of the Mediterranean Sea, God willing, after the collapse of the Egyptian pharaoh," Salehi said, rejecting Israel's claims the weapons found aboard the ship headed for Gaza were from Iran.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/03/16/Iran-denies-sending-weapons-to-Gaza/UPI-49431300274740/#ixzz1GmGOsU00

[azurnoir]

6. thanks for the info, I found part about the c-802 missiles interesting indeed

for others that may be interested in reading the complete article use the link provided (same as above) and enter c-802 in the search box

Has Hamas Tested a C-802 Shore-to-Ship Missile off Gaza?
Posted by David Eshel at 2/2/2009 9:42 AM CST

Israeli military analysts (and some at Debka) have revealed what could become a formidable addition to Hamas' arsenal: The missile fired from Gaza out to the Mediterranean last week and shown on Israel TV as a Hamas display, was not a Qassam as reported but could be a modified version of a Chinese C-802, possibly an Iranian shore-to-ship Nur C-802 missile, which is based on the Chinese "Silkworm."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:76f6fe33-87ec-4a49-96be-fd20aae7a9ab

[kayecy]

7. Not a non-sequitur....A comment on Israel's cynical use of publicity......

Israel never misses an opportunity to tell the world how shocking it is that Hamas should attempt to do what the Irgun did.

My comments on your responses:
1. The anti-ship missiles are reported as C-704 not C-802.

2. Any arms dealer, no matter how shady, would try and ensure his arms were accompanied by instruction books......No doubt there were Hebrew instructions with the Israeli-made shells.

3.Alexandria is a long way from Gaza, especially with the Egyptian army looking out for you.

4. Source - Jerusalem Post http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=212406

5. Exactly what I said.....The Iranians have not complained about the Israel boarding action or confiscation....They have merely complained about Israeli lies accusing Iran of being the supplier of the arms...
.

[henank]

8. The headline mentions

that Netanyahu said that some of the missiles were made in Israel in the 70s. Way back then Israel and Iran were allies. So what are you trying to claim here?

[kayecy]

12. Simply that the arms were old ...Just the sort of stuff a shady arms dealer would deal in...n/t

[oberliner]

9. You are talking about events from 70 years ago

And obviously very different circumstances. And certainly, you would not argue in favor of groups behaving like the Irgun, would you?

I do appreciate your responses. The situation is clearly somewhat of a mystery.

What is your theory on who the weapons were from and who they were for?

[kayecy]

13. All terrorism is despicable but which group had the greater excuse?....

And obviously very different circumstances.

Very different, and all terrorism is despicable but which group had the greater excuse?

What is your theory on who the weapons were from and who they were for?

I have no idea.......I believe in waiting for the results of a formal investigation.....Netanyahu cannot wait for that....Hamas and Iran must be responsible because they are the enemy and the publicity is too good to be wasted.


Far from giving publicity to its own arms-dealing, Israel, February, 1987, lied though its teeth in the same way that Iran does:
"Israel on Sunday flatly denied a U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee report claiming that it played a role in diverting Iranian arms sales funds to the contras of Nicaragua and that it offered as well to ship captured Soviet Bloc arms to the contras."

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-02-02/news/mn-187_1_israel-denies

[oberliner]

15. Hard to believe you have no idea

Seems odd for someone who clearly follows these issues so closely to have "no idea" who the weapons might be from or for. Not even a theory.

You have such detailed knowledge of so many of the specifics involved here but cannot even hazard an educated guess with respect to this question.

[kayecy]

31. Of course I can guess who the weapons were from or for......

Of course I can guess who the weapons were from or for......But a guess is exactly what it would be, and serve no purpose...


I don't seem to be the only one who thinks the Victoria incident was more about publicity than security:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-s-latest-pr-bid-has-failed-1.349676

"Israel's latest PR bid has failed
Netanyahu wants to sell the missiles' capture as proof of the Palestinians' murderous intentions, but the U.S. and Europe clearly distinguish between the PA and Islamic organizations."
.

[hack89]

34. Radars are cheap and common

You don't need a sophisticated military radar to target a ship relatively close to shore. You can get something that is good enough for a couple of thousand dollars.


http://www.wmjmarine.com/marine-electronics-radar-nobeltec.html

[bemildred]

10. Israel shows weaponry said to have been bound for Gaza

Great pic of Bibi and Barak.

Ashdod, Israel (CNN) -- The Israeli military displayed mortar shells, ammunition and surface-to-sea missiles in Ashdod on Wednesday, ordnance that officials said was seized from a ship originating in Iran and bound for Gaza.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the weapons "went through Syria, and they were en route to terror organizations in Gaza, but their ultimate target was the Israeli civilian population."

"Every day, new attempts are made by Iran and by Syria to smuggle weapons into Lebanon to Hezbollah, to Gaza to Hamas and to other terror organizations," he said.

Accompanying Netanyahu for the display were Defense Minister Ehud Barak and army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gans, among other officials.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/16/israel.weapons/

[oberliner]

11. Who do you think the weapons were for?

And who do you think they were from?

[bemildred]

18. I think the Israeli gov't puts on these dog and pony shows from time to time.

What the facts are I could not say. But as with our own Pentagon, I would need a couple more direct sources before I start to take it seriously.

I do not mean to say there are not lots of people trying to smuggle lots of stuff into Gaza, or that some of those folks might not want weapons, or try to get them from Iran, or that Iran does not need the money. But I would wager that the reasons for this dog-and-pony show are political, whatever the truth about the weapons is.

Isn't that a great pic of Bibi and Barak? They look like the clueless management types we used to get coming through from time to time back when I worked in "defense".

[oberliner]

19. A little odd that the PM could not be bothered to put on a tie

I mean, I know it's probably hot out and everything, but come on.

I don't agree with your "dog and pony" assessment. I think Iran is continuing to try to get weapons to Hamas, and Israel prevented that from happening and they are (perhaps clumsily) showing off their success in doing so and trying to make sure the world is aware that this sort of thing is going on, should Israel decide to take any further action.

So while agree that there is a clear presentational element to this press conference, I don't think it is fair to suggest that this incident was staged or is somehow not genuine.

In any case, wear a tie!

[Alamuti Lotus]

22. Should Iran take action regarding US arms shipments to Israel?

There have been serious losses of civilian life as a result of these "weapons of terror"... Do they have the same rights for the defense of allies, or is this some special thing that only certain people can do?

[oberliner]

23. There is no illegal weapons smuggling going on there

Everything between the US and Israel is above board as far as that is concerned.

Much like when Iran buys weapons from Russia.

Israel is in no position to do anything about that (other than diplomatically).

Smuggling weapons to Hamas is a violation of the UN cease fire resolution from 2009.

[bemildred]

24. I don't think you read what I said.

"Dog and pony show" is not inconsistent with some element of truth in it. I'm just saying the reason you have the dog-and-pony show is not the weapons, the reason you have the dog-and-pony show is to generate outrage and make PR points. If the pretext happens to be true, that is all to the good in these things.

[oberliner]

25. I thought d&p show meant that it was 'staged'

Misunderstanding on my part.

[bemildred]

26. Would it help if I think the Egyptian Israeli-spy story is a dog and pony show too?

And probably just as true as the weapons ship story, but likewise that is not why we are being told all about it.

[oberliner]

27. I think this article speaks to your observations

Israel's latest PR bid has failed

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-s-latest-pr-bid-has-failed-1.349676

[bemildred]

36. Yep. nt

[azurnoir]

28. Abbas prepares to visit Gaza

In a statement posted on the official Palestinian Authority news agency Wafa, Abu Rudeineh added that Abbas hopes to meet Ismail Haniyeh and other Hamas leaders in order to form a government to prepare for elections under international supervision.

"Abbas says he is ready to postpone a new government for the sake of this effort," Abu Rudeineh added.

In Jerusalem, the UN's envoy to the Middle East threw his support behind the idea.

"I very much welcome this development and hope that President Abbas' visit to Gaza will happen soon," Robert Serry said in a statement issued by his spokesman.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=369462

I must wonder how 'unity' at this juncture would affect support for a futurePalestinian State

[bemildred]

37. I could be wrong, I am no Nostradamus, but I predict ...

that it will degenerate into a struggle for control of the spin, over who gets the political credit. This quotation is very funny:

"Abbas says he is ready to postpone a new government for the sake of this effort"

[bemildred]

38. Look at the picture again, don't they all look bored?

There is nobody but politicians and bodyguards, and they all look bored, it's pure photo-op.

[pelsar]

30. theres a certain aspect that is always amusing to me here

The gazas shoot home made kassams, military made grads, military made mortar shells, IEDs along the israeli border.

In gaza they have virtually no resources to produce or manufacture military grade arms plus there is a very very active smuggling system via egypt and the sea (ships drop off supplies at sea and some of it gets to gaza)....and here there is an argument about a ship bound for egypt with arms on it and its being question what can its destination possible be?

sometimes 1 + 1 really does = 2.


I realize that some live in different worlds here, where the simple reality goes against their very "grain"....but this is pretty much what it is: iran, syrian, hizballa all aid in smuggling arms to the gazans, this time one of the ships got caught....nothing extraordinary about it.

[kayecy]

32. Have you any evidence to support that claim?......

...ships drop off supplies at sea and some of it gets to gaza....

Have you any evidence to support that claim?.....I have heard of this before but bearing in mind the IDF restrictions on even Gaza fishermen going out beyond a km or so, it seems unlikely......The weapons on the "Karen A" were supposed to have been intended for float-delivery to Gaza, but as I am sure you are aware, there are grounds for suspecting Israel used the Karen A incident to undermine Arafat and that the weapons were in fact destined for Hezbollah....Even the Iranian connection is disputed..

I realize that some live in different worlds here,

Too true......We tend to have a more balanced, less paranoid view of events.....And, dare I say it.....less gullible!


Anyway, welcome back to the board pelsar!....the recent contributions from Zionist members have been sadly lacking in evidence and logic.......Are you still in the IDF?
.

[pelsar]

33. common sense anyone?

the arms are coming from somewhere right?....

two options: egypt, and/or the sea.....and delivery has to be by something that can carry heavy stuff....that means trucks and ships.

--------

so one ship got caught....why is that all of a sudden "suspect" lots more got though
---

but as I am sure you are aware, there are grounds for suspecting Israel used the Karen A incident to undermine Arafat and that the weapons were in fact destined for Hezbollah.

yes i'm aware of the over worked imagination of everybody that israel is made up of supermen with super abilities that can never do anything wrong and that everything israel does is planned, and carried out with incredible precision for either PR affects, sneaky political manipulation to influence politics all across the globe and that finally the IDF is not really part of israel when its claimed its the IDF that massacres somehow it doesnt mean the citizens that are actually serving in the iDF....they mean "those other people."

-----------

i noticed that this board was getting absurd...with nobody here from israel, your imaginations go wild, i admit its fun to be thought as being part of a super race with super and really really mean people who command us mere citizens....., but, i'm too realistic to let it go

...and yes i still serve.

[kayecy]

35. Have you forgotten the rules?.......No racial insinuations allowed!......

.....i admit its fun to be thought as being part of a super race ....

No,no.......Have you forgotten the rules?.......No racial insinuations allowed!

.....the arms are coming from somewhere right?....two options: egypt, and/or the sea...so one ship got caught....why is that all of a sudden "suspect" lots more got though.

Actually, I was genuinely wanting to know if you had evidence that floating containers or something had been used in the past to land arms directly into Gaza.....Was it just common sense/speculation on your part or have you some inside knowledge?
.

[pelsar]

39. LOL the super race

about the floating stuff....yes and no

(and thats all your going to get....)

but beyond any knowledge what i have, the Palestinians are not passive, they're quite experienced with the IDF, and are very cleaver. It only makes sense that they would try the sea as a viable option.

dont forget, the tunnels are insured so when one gets bombed the investors simply invest in a new one (its a very lucrative business). Going by sea even with a certain calculated percentage lost may still be economically sound- and if it is, then there is no question that they will be doing it......