Israel clamps down on marking of ‘catastrophe day’

[bemildred]

Israel’s parliament on Wednesday passed a controversial bill that would fine state-funded organisations or town councils for marking Israel’s Independence Day as Nakba Day, a day of catastrophe.

The so called “Nakba Bill” was approved by a 37-25 vote after months of debate in which critics warned it could set a dangerous precedent against freedom of expression and would unfairly target Arab citizens.

Its proponents, including members of the ultranationalist Yisrael Beiteinu party which sponsored the legislation, countered that it represented an effort to end the exploitation of democracy by groups that worked against the interests of the country.

The bill would also levy fines from state-supported organisations that supported what it described as racism or armed resistance against Israel, including activities defined as undermining Israel’s existence as a Jewish and democratic state.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/539f0516-555b-11e0-87fe-00144feab49a.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

2. Now you've done it.

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

6. Do carry on then ...

:hi:

[2gabby]

7. Nakba

NAKBA NAKBA NAKBA
Yup

[2gabby]

44. I tried, but it was erased. Typical. Censorship. Gee, that makes Israel look REAL good...

That'll teach an ordinary gal to get on here and discuss Palestinians and Israel.

There's a word for this. Cowardice.

I'm very angry now. I would have to assume that was the idea.

It worked.

[cali]

4. how do you feel about the U.S. ?

if Israel is a monster, don't you think, as a nation, the U.S. is several times more a monster? Not to mention dozens of other countries. Israel's occupation is horrible, but it is not exceptional. Far from it.

[2gabby]

5. Yeah, lets stay on topic, shall we?

It's not about the USA, and don't expect me to waste my time defending the ruthless actions of my government or any other. Don't sit there and defend bigotry by pointing at others. Here, let me help you; I expected better from the Jewish people, and I'm disappointed.

Let's talk about the Palestinians (remember them?) and how they don't have a right to their own words, shall we?

[azurnoir]

8. good luck with that it's a common to see that

but but but look over there or so and so does it too, so why pick on Israel?

[2gabby]

11. workin on it. nt

[cali]

9. it is on topic. my point is that you seem to believe that Israel is exceptional

it's really not.

[2gabby]

10. I think it is exceptional, reprehensible, it should be condemned

"Israel’s parliament on Wednesday passed a controversial bill that would fine state-funded organisations or town councils for marking Israel’s Independence Day as Nakba Day, a day of catastrophe."

Sounds exceptional for any country that professes any kind of belief in freedom. It should be condemned loudly.

It's like Americans telling American Indians they don't have a right to their history. And many people have tried. But the Trail Of Tears isn't an illegal phrase, and I can't remember the last time anyone said wiping out their language was a good idea. I think what this bill says is pathetic.

[Mosby]

13. No, it's telling CITIZENS of Israel that they cannot use STATE funds

for propaganda purposes.

[2gabby]

16. And it is aimed directly at the Palestinians

And I question how this can possibly be right?

It is their opinion that NAKBA was a tragedy for them. So even using the word is dangerous propaganda? It means they don't have a right say how they feel.

That's insane. Okay? No one has that right. Editing to say, no one has the right or a good reason to stop someone else from expressing their true opinions.

[Mosby]

20. It's propaganda because the Nakba narrative ignores reality

the REALITY is that for more than 60 years the Palestinians could have their country any time they want, all they need to do is sit down with the Israelis (per the UNSC) and work something out. For some reason though they prefer to remain "victims".

Personally I think the Palestinians are quite capable of determining there own futures.

[2gabby]

24. That is indeed the state narrative and version of history

And it completely ignores everthing the Palestinians say.

So I believe they should be more free to air their grievances. Not less. Since they are certainly the underdog in a self-proclaimed Jewish state, I should blame them for misunderstanding the official narrative?

Hard to believe the old man was crying over ancient olive groves because he asked for it. And I don't believe all these people lost their homes because they couldn't work something out. You make it sound like they're simply foolish. They say they w ere lied to.

[aranthus]

32. It's worse than that.

The Nakba natrrative is essentially that the innocent Palestinians were victimized by Israel's creation; that all or mostly all Palestinians were intentionally expelled so that there could be an Israel. That not only ignores reality; it does so in the service of demonizing Israel's existence.

[2gabby]

109. Whatever it says,

If that's what happened, why can't you deal with it?

Seriously. Many thousands of people were forced out. That's what happened.

Unless you want THIS ignorant Midwesterner to believe either
1 Palestinians never lived in Palestine in the first place. They appeared out of nowhere, with stories of homes they never lived in and things that never happened.
Or
2 They left willingly, were fairly compensated, squandered their new wealth, and have been complaining unreasonably ever since.

I think you can't deal with the reality of why they left.

[azurnoir]

18. so in your opinon the Nakba is propaganda?

these are Israeli citizens and the law applies to municipalities as well as groups

[Mosby]

19. Yes, the UN provided for Palestinian national aspirations

in UN res 181 but the Palestinian Arabs rejected it. Moreover if the Palestinians want a state all they need to do is sit down with the Israelis and work something out. For some reason though they insist that this is someone else's fault which needs to be fixed by others because they are somehow incapable.

[azurnoir]

21. but the law applies to Israeli citizens not non citizen Palestinians

they are mourning their relatives feeling they had to flee and not being allowed to return, the very wording of your post would say that Israeli Arabs or Palestinians are not really Israeli's or are somehow lesser Israeli's, when in reality they are citizens of Israel who do not have the right to observe their own heritage as they see fit or as they experienced it

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2gabby]

25. cold words

Now THAT is hateful.

"Palestinians and Arabs failed to kill off the Zionists..." you say?

So now we're off into collateral punishment again a population mostly not yet born in 47/48?

Good to know. It has nothing to do with freedom for anyone but Jewish citizens. Well that's some special independence day.

[Mosby]

26. your post makes no sense

And I don't want to assume anything so welcome to DU and have a great day.

[2gabby]

28. You said "because the palestinians and Arabs failed to kill off the Zionists in 47/48. Boo fucking

As if that has anything to do with persecution of Muslim citizens today.

Don't tell me who isn't making sense

[King_David]

76. I second that,your post makes no sense.

[2gabby]

107. Well i'm sorry, would you like to explain it then?

We were discussing NAKBA and its suppression, and somehow wound up in 1947/1948. As if something done then justifies policies being enacted today. Some Palestinians are still alive today that were there and can point to their family homes which are occupied by other families. Most are too young and had nothing to do with 1947/48.

So when I said his words were cold, I didn't make any sense? Me?

Well I'm an amature.

Guess that just shows you what this conflict might look like, from the outside looking in. The Palestinians seem to have lost almost everything. Including words. Nakba. The whole point of the discussion.

[azurnoir]

41. what you do not seem to understand is that the'Palestinians" are Israeli citizens

"as usual Palestinians are looking for someone else to fix their problems for them, in this case Israeli Arabs."

no Palestinians are not looking to Israeli Arabs, law is in its essence a 'Jim Crow' type of law aimed at Israeli citizens that are of a minority ethnicity

"I think it's very reasonable for the Israelis to insist that their Independence day isn't turning into some fictional day of mourning because the palestinians and Arabs failed to kill off the Zionists in 47/48. Boo fucking hoo."

your sympathies are noted but such a law IMO should not exist in a 'Democratic' country. the entire jist of your post sounds as though you consider Israeli Arab as some sort of 5th column?

Take everything in your post and fill in Native Americans, Blacks, or Mexican Americans for Palestinian/Arab

[Ken Burch]

56. It wasn't about "failing to kill off the Zionists"

Palestinians were never in favor of mass murder.

It was about failing to prevent the establishment of a state in which Arabs were always going to be a disadvataged minority. A lot of Zionists in the 1940's were willing to consider a state in which Jews and Arabs lived as full equals and in equal numbers, a democratic state that wasn't about priveleging any one ethnicity. Ben-Gurion and the hardliners with him wouldn't hear of it.

Such a state could have worked at the time.

[Mosby]

59. "Kill the Jews wherever you find them, this is pleasing to Allah."

"Kill the Jews wherever you find them, this is pleasing to Allah."

That is how the Mufti of J-lem called for a Jihad against the Jewish Zionists in 1943 during a radio broadcast. Seems like a pretty straightforward statement doesn't it?


"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

Spoken by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League right at the start of the war. Not much to parse here.


How many average Palestinians supported genocide against the Jewish Zionists will never be completely known but according to this school teacher interviewed in 1961, the genocidal intent was common knowledge:

"Now you say that you want to return to the past; you want Partition. So, in fact you say, let us forget that war we started, and the defeat, and, after all, we think Partition is a good, sensible idea. Please answer me this, which is what I must, know. If the position were reversed, if the Jews had started the war and lost it, if you had won the war, would you now accept Partition? Would you give up part of the country and allow the 650,000 Jewish residents of Palestine -who had fled from the war--to come back?"

"Certainly not," he said, without an instant's hesitation. "But there would have been no Jewish refugees. They had no place to go. They would all be dead or in the sea."

According to Shlomo Ben-Ami the Palestinians made it clear what their intentions were:

"The Arab disaster of 1948 was that of a people that opted for high stakes - doing away with the aggressive Zionist presence in Palestine and with the 181 resolution that legitimized it - with inadequate resources. Shlomo Ben-Ami, Scars of War, Wounds of Peace pg 35


http://208.84.118.121/pf_independence_arab_countries.php
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html#11
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1961/10/the-arabs-of-palestine/4203/6/

[Violet_Crumble]

63. I'm positive we could take a few ugly comments from Israeli leaders...

...and use them to claim Zionists and Jews want to kill Palestinians. But let's not do that, because to do so is doing exactly what was done in the post I'm replying to, where unverified quotes from one or two people are used to support an ugly claim that Arabs and Palestinians wanted to murder Jews. Do you understand how ugly it is to use a few quotes to paint an ugly picture of an entire people? Clearly not...

[King_David]

75. Its not difficult tho to debunk most of the circulating

racist quotes attributable to Israeli LEADERS. Most were fabrications.

[Violet_Crumble]

80. And quite a few of them aren't...

Hence the point that seems to be flying a mile over yr head...

btw, welcome to DU! I hope yr stay is an interesting one! ;)

[King_David]

87. I do not think that was a friendly welcome

`I hope yr stay is an interesting one`

What you trying to say. Do not be cryptic now.Spit it out.

Some posts are creepy don't you find?

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King_David]

93. That really is creepy

Please tell me what your going on about?

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King_David]

99. Someone who writes 'during yr stay here'

`during yr stay here`

yr yr yr yr ??

has the chutzpah (rough translation = nerve) to critisize lol lol

G`day my conversation here with you is done.

[King_David]

77. 'Palestinians were never in favor of mass murder'

I notice you like to speak 'for'Palestinians a lot.

Why would you think they need some white guy from Alaska speaking for and translating for them.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. What's with the desire to stereotype Palestinians?

And what's someone else's race got to do with anything?

[King_David]

86. yes exactly

What was with that stereotype?

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

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[King_David]

101. Yoor a Moderator here?

[King_David]

105. Why ?

'I'm guessing yr stay will be a brief one as well'

Why ?

You may not like it, but this Board supports Barak Obama ,The Democratic Party , The Democratic Members of Congress and The Senate.

My views on Israel/Palestine and indeed on Everything else are almost 100% congruent with someone like Congressman Weiner (Heck we could of gone to school together and had parrallell lives and views)

So it seems I am at the right place and the right Forum and I plan to be here a long time,supporting the same views and people as this board does.And that includes exactly the same views and ideals of the Majority of Democratic party current and future elected officials.

You support them too ?

DU rule #2 :

2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

[2gabby]

40. Why? nt

[Ken Burch]

55. And the settlers DON'T?

Every penny that goes to building the settlements goes to furthering the toxic notion that "Judea and Samaria" are inherently part of Israel and that the Israeli government has every right to hold them by force.

[Mosby]

12. So you hold Jews to a different standard than other groups?

I take it that you don't hold Palestinian Muslims to the same standard, why is that?

[2gabby]

14. oh I think I'm allowed

to have a preference of culture. Jewish religion and traditions are more favorable to women. If that isn't a good enough reason, its another topic we probably don't agree on. I'll agree it doesn't seem to have helped much. But I won't apologize for favoritism over bigotry. I have a fondness for one, not a hatred for the other. I perceive hatred of women, and I would be very happy if I were wrong, but difficult to convince.

[Ken Burch]

54. Of course. Nobody who criticizes the Israeli government lets the U.S. off the hook

In fact, it was the people who speak out for the Palestinians today who were the first to speak out against things like Jim Crow, the persecution of Native Americans, the bloodthirsty American foreign policy tradition and every other sin committed by the American Empire.

And you damn well know it.

Nobody holds Israel to a higher standard than they hold the U.S.

In fact, part of the reason some of us react so strongly to what we see happening in places like the West Bank is that the developments there remind us, to our horror, of the 19th Century "Manifest Destiny" mindset allowed white Americans of that day to delude themselves into believing that GOD wanted them to do what they did to everyone else on the continent. It often appears to a lot of us that the U.S. has imported that mindset into the Israeli settler consciousness.

Do you not see the parallels?

[2gabby]

108. and we wouldn't wish it on anybody else. nt

[aranthus]

22. Do you understand that for Palestinians

Nakba includes the mere creation of Israel? It isn't simply the false claim that they were all intentionally expelled, which would be bad enough. The Nakba narrative is inherently bound up with demonizing Israel's existence. More importantly, the ban appears to be only on preventing people from using state funds for the purpose of spreading anti-Israel propaganda. How is that denying Palestinian existence?

You ask, "what does it mean to be a "Jewish" state anyway?" To answer with a question, what does it mean for France to be a French state? Or Japan to be Japanese? Russia to be Russian? Or China to be Chinese? Or Germany to be German? Or . . . any of a couple of hundred other nation states. Including, what does it mean for the the United States of America to be American? Do you have a problem with every other country having a dominant national character or just Israel?

[2gabby]

27. now we're getting somewhere

And now we're on to the heavy spin.

"false claim they were intenionally expelled"

I do not believe all their claims are false. I believe it is much more likely the state is covering up the truth. And its easy to see the self-proclaimed winners are making the rules.

So, simply, I believe the government is lying about how it treated the natives. It's not exactly a stretch of the imagination.

'You ask, "what does it mean to be a "Jewish" state anyway?" To answer with a question, what does it mean for France to be a French state? Or Japan to be Japanese? Russia to be Russian? Or China to be Chinese? Or Germany to be German? Or . . . any of a couple of hundred other nation states'

Yeah, okay, aside from the fact that those are names of nations and NOT simply racial terms, what does it mean to be Muslim in Israel? Why did Israel (last year I believe?) proclaim itself Jewish, when it has so many native Muslims? Was that meant be inclusive, or exclusive?

National identiy? It's usually determined by the people who live there, usually not just a select group.

[aranthus]

30. I hope so. However. . .

And now we're on to the heavy spin." If all you're going to do is dismiss the opposing argument as spin, then we won't get anywhere.

"'false claim they were intenionally expelled'" That isn't what I wrote. If you are gong to quote me, please do so accurately. What I wrote was about the, "false claim that they were all intentionally expelled." That "all" is very important to my meaning and to what the Palestinians are claiming. "All" Palesintians were not intentionally expelled. In fact most (90-95%) were not. The claim is a lie.



"I do not believe all their claims are false." Nor do I. Nor did I say that they were.


"I believe it is much more likely the state is covering up the truth. And its easy to see the self-proclaimed winners are making the rules.

So, simply, I believe the government is lying about how it treated the natives. It's not exactly a stretch of the imagination."

So you are assuming that the Israelis committed a crime against humanity based on an unfounded Palestinian claim? At least you're honest about your biases.


"Yeah, okay, aside from the fact that those are names of nations and NOT simply racial terms," Do you think that "Jew" is a racial term? Where did you get that idea? It simply isn't true. There is no Jewish race. However, there is a Jewish people, just as there is a French people.

[2gabby]

36. Your points

I am not dismissing your opposing argument as spin as much as I believe all your arguments dismiss the Palestinians. I speak about their lives and the injustice, and all I hear is Israel. It sounds like nationalism.

I'm sorry I wasn't accurate with the quote. I don't agree it is true that '"All" Palesintians were not intentionally expelled. In fact most (90-95%) were not. The claim is a lie.' I'm not sure how many were forced, but if 95 percent of them were fairly compensated, where did the all the destitute Palestinians come from? How many of them are there, over a million? Why did so many of them agree to sell their properties? Am I honestly to believe its a case of buyer's remorse? Did the families actually want to leave, or was it a decision made for them by the authorities? Did these families have ANY say, or were they pawns? My history is poor, so can you tell me what persuasive argument convinced 95 percent (out of how many?) of them to leave their homeland? That is the part I don't understand or believe. I've heard too many stories from the people still alive who remember being relocated without being told they would never return. That might sound okay to some people, but it doesnt sound right to me. I can't believe hundreds of thousands of people so badly managed their finances that it caused such widespread poverty after willingly selling their properties.


"So you are assuming that the Israelis committed a crime against humanity based on an unfounded Palestinian claim? At least you're honest about your biases."
Yes, I am. And it isn't a huge stretch of the imagination that a government would treat indigenous people in such a way. I see people impoverished, many stories of their loss, and a privileged population (unless you want to deny Jewish-only highway systems, Jewish-only policies for renting/selling properties, walls and checkpoints and other travel restrictions for non-Jews) which seems to wan

Oh this silly thing, hit post, tiny buttons...

seems to want the a Jewish state with only Jewish people.

Have to start over to finish this

[2gabby]

37. lastly

We said
Yeah, okay, aside from the fact that those are names of nations and NOT simply racial terms," Do you think that "Jew" is a racial term? Where did you get that idea? It simply isn't true. There is no Jewish race. However, there is a Jewish people, just as there is a French people.

My point is, those are names of nations, not races or religions. If you can't see a Jewish national identity is divisive and insulting to the people and the (living) memory of the people who lived there then and live there now, I think your denying their right to exist. Your denying them the place where they were born. For no reason; Israel has a name already. Why isn't it enough to be Israeli? Why isn't that the logical equivalent to Frenchman from France or Americans from America? Why the religious/ethnic intolerance? Is there really any question that Israel is Jewish? Why do they need extra special recognition and I better not question it?
Sorry. I'm not Christian either, and I see no good reason for a self-proclaimed Jewish state.

I don't believe all the muslums left willingly. I don't believe they're all lying. I see a Jewish state that despises its native population. It isn't anything to be proud of, and I see you defending by blaming the Muslims. As if they would just be REASONABLE, everything would work out. But settlements keep being built,.Muslims are still being kicked out, and its easy to see who benefits. Easy to see who keeps expanding their boarders, hoarding water and I've seen footage of how Palestinians children are treated at checkpoints, walking home from school.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. Israel should be Israeli, not Jewish.

France being a French state means that it is the state of all the people with citizenship of that country.

Israel being a Jewish state means that it is the state of all the members of a given ethnic group.

Israel should be an Israeli state - that is to say, a state in which non-Jewish Israelis have equal status to Jewish Israelis, and Jewish non-Israelis like me have equal status to non-Jewish non-Israelis.

The *only* legitimate basis for statehood is geography. A state based on ethnicity rather than geography can never legitimately rule over any area of land.

Its current status is explicitly and proudly racist.

[aranthus]

31. Why? Don't Jews have the same right of national existence as the French?

"France being a French state means that it is the state of all the people with citizenship of that country." It also means that the culture of the state is French, not German; not Muslim or North African.

"Israel being a Jewish state means that it is the state of all the members of a given ethnic group." No. It means that the culture of the state is Jewish.

"Israel should be an Israeli state - that is to say, a state in which non-Jewish Israelis have equal status to Jewish Israelis, and Jewish non-Israelis like me have equal status to non-Jewish non-Israelis." And in a fantasy world where minorities were equal to the majority culture of the states in which they lived, that might be true. However, here in the real world, where that doesn't exist in any country, it also doesn't exist in Israel. While that isn't the perfect world, it also isn't reason to demonize the Israeli state.

"The *only* legitimate basis for statehood is geography. A state based on ethnicity rather than geography can never legitimately rule over any area of land." Nonsense. If that were true, then no state would be legitimate. You are reducing a state to a geographical artifact. States are much more than that. They are not merely a plot of land on which a group of people live. States are cultural artifacts. That means that they have an ideological foundation. That's what national culture is. Without that unifying national culture (defined by the majority), a state can't exist. Look at Czechoslovakia or the Soviet Union. Without the Soviet military to keep them together, they split up into smaller nation states; each with its own predominant national culture. Geography means nothing except that it defines the area of national control. However, it is the culture of the majority that defines the state.

"Its current status is explicitly and proudly racist." Since neither "Jew" nor "Arab" is a race, your statement is false on its face. The mere fact that Israel is a Jewish state doesn't make it any more racist than France being a French state. Mistreatment of minorities is not good, but that is a separate issue from whether it is legitimate for a state to have a particular national character. All states have that. Israel has as much right to its Jewish character as France has a right to be French.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

35. No, *the* Jews (as a people) do not have the same rights as the French.

The French are a people defined by geography; the Jews are a people defined by a mixture of religion and - despite what you say - ethnicity. The only thing that gives a people the right to rule over an area of land is being the people of that area of land. If some Jews wish to call themselves a nation, that's fine, but since that nation is not defined by geography it does not have the right to rule over any area of land.

Of course, Jews (as opposed to "the Jews") have exactly the same rights as anyone else to be citzens of their own states. I am Jewish; my state is Britain. The shared lie of the Zionists and the antisemites - that being Jewish makes me less British and/or more Israeli than anyone else - is racist nonsense. Thankfully, nowhere in the West except Israel is it still widely believed.



>It also means that the culture of the state is French, not German; not Muslim or North African.

No, it doesn't mean that, because that is not a meaningful statement, it's just empty waffle.


>And in a fantasy world where minorities were equal to the majority culture of the states in which they lived, that might be
> true.

There is often de facto discrimination, but in most Western states ethnic minorities do not merely enjoy full equal rights but discrimination against them is illegal. Israel is unique among Western states (although nowhere near unique worldwide) in the extent to which it not merely legalises but encourages racism.



> Since neither "Jew" nor "Arab" is a race, your statement is false on its face.

The statement that discriminating in favour of Jews is not racist is as laughable, as offensive and as wicked as the statement that discriminating against them is not. I presume you wouldn't make the latter statement?

[King_David]

52. Well its your right not to identify yourself with the group

But if the majority of the members of this ethnicity identify themselves as part of the Jewish nation, well thats up to them.Who are you to dictate to the rest of us?
I am part of the Jewish nation aka Am Yisrael,I may not live in Israel but enough of my family and other members of my Jewish Nation do live in THE JEWISH STATE aka Israel .
And thats prevailing Jewish thought.Your not wanting anything to do with it is minority Jewish thought as is your right,but your not successful in imposing this on the rest of us.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Just curious, but where do you live?

[King_David]

92. Why?

It is not relevant.

I have a big family in Sydney Australia and heaps of their kids are in Israel in the IDF as we speak.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2gabby]

38. You said "No. It means that the culture of the state is Jewish."

And I disagree with "No. It means that the culture of the state is Jewish."

That is what I question. Why? Why is that a good idea? Do you really believe the Muslims who live there aren't part of that national identity? And they should not be?? Do you honestly think they're happy about that? Would you be happy about that? I think if you were Muslim, you would not agree at all, and if you don't think THAT matters, you are discriminating against Muslims and you don't believe in human rights at all.

Face it, if you don't believe Muslims are a part of the national identity, then you deny their rights and their existence. Apartheid.

[hack89]

33. Should the Kurds have a nation?

The Basques? Do they have geographic claims to their own countries? This is not an attack - just trying to discover the logical limits of your point of view.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. Not in the sense that Israel is Jewish (and no to the Basques)

There may be a case to be made for redrawing national boundaries so as to create a state which would cover the Kurdish-majority areas, but such a state should - like any other state - be a state of all its people, not just the Kurds; it would only be Kurdish in the sense that the majority of its people were Kurdish.

My guess is that this would be a bad thing, though. Redrawing national boundaries usually involves massive amounts of violence and suffering - see e.g. India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine, Cyprus or the entire history of the Balkans. I don't know enough about the specifics of Turkish/Iraqi/Kurdish politics to be sure, though.

I think that creating a new state between Spain and France would almost certainly be a bad thing.

[2gabby]

39. I think, who is anybody to tell them they don't?

Who doesn't have a geographic claim? Indigenous people all over the world are fighting for their rights today, and Palestinians aren't any different.

[hack89]

49. And that's it in a nutshell

groups of people are not neatly arranged such that there will never be overlapping and conflicting claims.

[azurnoir]

15. another link same story the link inOP wants a sign in

Knesset adopts ‘Nakba Law’

With the "Nakba Law" passed late Tuesday, the state would be able to fine local communities and other state-funded groups for holding events that mark what the Arab community calls the Nakba, which means catastrophe, referring to the creation of the Jewish state of Israel. Fines, deducted from a group's operating budget, would equal up to three times the event's sponsorship cost; repeat violations would double the fines.

The law, which was enacted by a vote of 37 to 25, also applies to activities which deny that Israel is a Jewish state as well as the country's democratic character, and support armed struggle against the state or terror acts against Israel.

<snip>

The Knesset late Tuesday also passed the Admissions Committee Law allowing Negev and Galilee Jewish communities with fewer than 400 families to vet possible residents with an admission committee. Potential residents could be rejected if they do not fit into the community's social or cultural way of life.

Israeli rights groups called the laws discriminatory and an attack against Israeli Arabs.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/03/23/3086536/knesset-passes-nakba-law

[bemildred]

17. That's interesting. I got the whole story.

But thanks for posting, it's good to have options.

[azurnoir]

45. well I''ve tried twice more in case it was just a glitch

it wasn't apparently it wants me to register (free), now I have an aversion to and a real dislike of those thing, usually results in more trying to sell something spam in my inbox

[2gabby]

42. wait a minute, my first post was removed?

And here I was about to add something to it. This:

It's wrong to characterize a group of people so broadly and negatively, and I should have qualified what I said to apply to religious fanatics, which is certainly not unique to Islam. I just have a problem with the role of women in the Islamic faith particularly because it seems most pronounced that men have automatic authority over women, and I see that as hateful. I see it as an evil, truth be told. It makes me very angry. I don't think anyone should have to hide their face from the sun for any reason, save for a personal reason. I remember seeing pictures of the women's bruised and misshapen faces, under the veils, and the stories of abuse, and my attitude is hopelessly skewed.

I let my bias against religion cloud my judgement of people, but what a bunch of nonsense to characterize as women-hating homophobic religious fanatics. I have to take it back. That was rude, and wrong, and I'm sorry.

But wow. Well, I guess its true then. Can't criticize?

Good luck with that.

N a k b a.

[2gabby]

43. thinkin about it some more

Yeah, that was nuts to delete my posts. You should be ashamed of such shameless manipulation of the discussion. It doesn't help anyone.

Christ, I worked really hard on those, shame on you for such favoritism. SHAME.

[bemildred]

46. There are certain special rules for this forum, pinned at the top of the page.

Presumably you are deemed to have infringed on one of them.

[2gabby]

47. Well that is insane

Sorta like, well nevermind. I'm not putting up with this anymore. I worked really hard on what I wrote, so this obviously isn't the place to hold honest discussions. That really hurt my feelings, and what horrible people want to do that?

Didn't expect the site to "bring it"

Such cowards. It's sad. So shameful.

Good talking to you.

Fuck this censorship though. Solidarity with the oppressed!

N a k b a

[2gabby]

48. funny thing is, I didn't used to believe Israel is evil

But looking at this, they do seem to have ridiculous influence. I used to think the criticism of Israel was unfair and misplaced. I used to. Now I don't think that.

Thanks to DU, I have seen for myself. Delete away. Must be a good gig. Must be fun to play god with the feelings of others. I was trying to break through the rhetoric, and discuss the Palestinians. I made it clear I think all people have a right to exist, not countries.

Well I'm beating a dead horse to make myself feel better, and the mods will likely be the only ones to read it, before deleting. Ah, such attention, how can my barely formed opinions matter so much?
It's like being not Christian, here in the biblebelt. You just have to agree. You don't fit in, and your opinion means nothing. That's how I see Israel. And here.

If my posts don't reappear, I'm gone. I'm not going to complain and whine and beg. Keep that, its sick and YOU'RE WRONG du. Wrong. Man up, or keep kissing ass. Done

[bemildred]

50. Well, I do think you are taking this much too seriously.

Enjoy your pizza.

[2gabby]

51. Thanks, but its back to being just a news site, discussions are a waste of time

This was too blatant. My temper can't handle such underhanded people. And its just a waste of time. Ha. I didn't know my audience. But it was a wasted exercise in fairness, just a waste of time. I'm fighting derogatory feeling about Jewish people, and that is so sad. I have to hope that isn't the agenda. It certainly has that effect.

But it doesn't matter to these folk!

Gosh I wish I could enjoy pizza, and spicy food, people make it look so good.

I'll enjoy my coffee though, thanks for your time!


:shrug:

[Ken Burch]

60. Be very, very careful about falling into anything remotely like "anti-Jewish" feeling

The weird thing is, that is exactly what hardline "the Israeli government must NEVER be criticized" types WANT you to do. Their entire political case is predicated on proving that the entire world is antisemitic. The world isn't(although antisemitism is a big problem that must be confronted with the same vigor all other forms of bigotry should be resisted), but those who want to silence all debate on the Occupation and the settlements and all related issues depends on people believing that it is.

As always, the answer is to work for freedom, justice and equality for all.

[2gabby]

64. No, no anti-Jewish feelings, I won't be that kind of fool

Been all other kinds of foolish, but I won't do that. Growing up in the Midwest as an atheist, it was a lesson I couldn't escape. And honestly, with my European ancestry, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some Jewish background. On my mothers side no less. It's list, lol Irish, Black Irish, English, Scottish, German, Italian or maybe Swiss and, my favorite, Cherokee. I grieve what my indian ancestors must have gone through, when I found out. I'd heard about the Trail of Tears, but just a few years ago we found a family picture of Cherokee woman. But that's all I know.

Anyway, I agree with everything you wrote. And thank you for taking the time to write it.

I just wanted to come on here as an advocate, and criticize Israel loudly for this action. I expected loud arguments, but to get deleted the next day? Or maybe that's just when I noticed, but it was a long discussion, which made deleting select posts from the top seem like a cheap trick. Very frustrating.

I really appreciate your response, and the chance to say I'll never be anti-semantic. Bigotry is evil.

[King_David]

79. yes 'Be very, very careful about falling into anything remotely like "anti-Jewish" feeling'

a lot of people are very careful.

[Ken Burch]

82. I'd say that those who self-identify as "pro-Israel" should be very, very careful

about falling in to anything remotely like anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian feeling as well.

I was speaking out against the idea of supporters of a liberation struggle reducing themselves to bigotry. Do you object to that?

It's a risk in ANY nationalist movement(including Zionism).

btw...what's the deal with the Microsoft logo? This is a progressive board. Big Nerd isn't exactly on OUR side on most things.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. Ken, check yr PMs. Got something to tell you n/t

[Ken Burch]

84. Will do.

n/t.

[King_David]

91. Roger that

10-4 and the black eagle moves slowly on a winters night.
;)

[King_David]

90. The Microsoft logo?

Maybe ask Skinner , DU supplied it as a choice of default Logo.
I like their choice of countries where they do R anD.
I use their products every day as do you probably.
My union's pension plan owns some of their stock.


This is a progressive board , true and I support Barack Obama and the Democratic Party as do 85 % of my friends and family.

That OK ?

[Ken Burch]

94. Well, thanks for the explanation anyway.

n/t.

[2gabby]

70. but i still shouldn't have gone there

Without including myself first, so that it sounded as stupid as I meant it.

[Ken Burch]

53. Shameful

Israeli Arabs have every right to regard 1948 as a tragedy and to mourn it. There's no excuse for repressing their right to free speech on this.

Really, why SHOULDN'T they have the right to consider 1948 a catastrophe? They are just as entitled to feel that way as Native Americans are to have such feelings about "the winning of 'The West'". It's disgusting to tell them that they can't feel what they feel.

If those who don't like references to the "Nakba" really wanted to do something constructive, they might actually try LISTENING to Israeli Arabs and making the kinds of changes that would stop them feeling that way.

[2gabby]

65. I agree with you

Allowing them to air their feeling , and call it anything they want to is better than saying "shut up about it, its fine."

This isn't actually the first time I've heard of the Israel government trying to stop use of the word NAKBA, but I don't remember when or have any links. I think its part of a campaign. Energy would be much better spent in finding fair solutions. And, maybe a little compassion for the people who feel so wronged would be helpful, even if only ONE side perceives the wrong.

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. it is possible to have feelings for someones loss, even if one thinks of them as the other side

To quote former Israeli Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben Ami from his book, Scars of War Wounds of Peace: The Arab Israeli Tragedy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Scars-War-Wounds-Peace-Israeli-Arab/dp/0195181581/sr=1-1/qid=1166681762/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books

------- former Israeli Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben Ami

from page 42:

"The reality on the ground was at times far simpler and more cruel than what Ben-Gurion was ready to acknowledge. It was that of an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation, at at times atrocities and massacres it perpetrated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of massacres that would be carved into the Arabs' monument of grief and hatred."

from page 44:

"The debate about whether or not the mass exodus of Palestinians was the result of a Zionist design or the inevitable concomitant of war could not ignore the ideological constructs that motivated the Zionist enterprise. The philosophy of transfer was not a marginal, esoteric article....These ideological constructs provided a legitimate environment for commanders in the field to encourage the eviction of the local population even when no precise order to that effect was issued by the political leaders. As early as February 1948, that is before the mass exodus had started but after he witnessed how Arabs had fled West Jerusalem, Ben-Gurion could not hide his excitement."

[Douglas Carpenter]

104. also from the former Israeli Foreign Minister's book

“Israel, as a society, also suppressed the memory of its war against the local Palestinians, because it couldn’t really come to terms with the fact that it expelled Arabs, committed atrocities against them, dispossessed them. This was like admitting that the noble Jewish dream of statehood was stained forever by a major injustice committed against the Palestinians and that the Jewish state was born in sin.”

Shlomo Ben Ami - from Scars of War Wounds of Peace: The Arab Israeli Tragedy -

From Google Books:

Oxford University Press, 2006 - History - 354 pages
An Oxford-trained historian who became Israeli Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami was a key figure in the Camp David negotiations and many other rounds of peace talks, public and secret, with Palestinian and Arab officials. He offers here an unflinching account of the Arab-Israeli conflict, informed by his firsthand knowledge of the major characters and events. Clear-eyed and unsparing, Ben-Ami traces the twists and turns of the Middle East conflict and the many missteps of the Israelis and Palestinians. The author paints particularly trenchant portraits of key figures from Ben-Gurion to Bill Clinton,.... Scars of War, Wounds of Peace is a major work of history--with by far the most fair and balanced critique of Israel ever to come from one of its key officials. It is an absolute must-read for everyone who wants to understand the dynamics of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-bBtAAAAMAAJ&q=Shlomo+Ben+Ami+Scars+of+War+Wounds+of+Peace&dq=Shlomo+Ben+Ami+Scars+of+War+Wounds+of+Peace&hl=en&ei=nGCPTfe1KZTE4gbyiryfCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. Israel should declare Nakba day a national day of shame and attonement.

That so many people continue to treat the foundation of Israel as something to celebrate and be proud of is shameful.

[Ken Burch]

61. That would be a great step towards the eventual project of reconciliation.

that both communities in Israel/Palestine will have to complete.

It isn't any threat to Israeli security to point out that innocent people suffered in the name of the creation of that state. Indeed, making Israel secure will require that the historic and present-day grievances of Palestinians be acknowledged and properly addressed.

Respect and openness are what's needed-not defiant arrogance.

[oberliner]

67. The US could do that with Thanksgiving too

I know many Native Americans consider it to be a "National Day of Mourning" - is it shameful for the US to celebrate and take pride in its founding considering the circumstances?

[azurnoir]

68. absolutely not but it would be shameful for the US

to make laws that are punitive towards Native Americans or any US citizen or possibly resident for that matter to observe ot as something else, IMO one of the 'hallmarks' of a democracy is living with different opinions

[2gabby]

69. I tend to agree with you, but personally I wish it could include both sides

If its possible to include all the history of it. It's hard to include how it feels to remember a time when the nation used to celebrate the loss of so many, without even a mention of the truth, and then you grow up. What to do with those traditions we love when you learn about more. I'm thankful for all my ancestors that survived, and its probably pretty common that many of mine seem to have come from opposite sides.

[Ken Burch]

71. It is, sort of. Although I'm not sure that many people in the U.S.

really connect the day anymore with the original events it was meant to commemorate. For most Americans, it's about watching sports and eating enough turkey and ham to put yourself into a protein coma.

The U.S. should remodel the holiday to include the sadness and rage that Native Americans justifiably feel about what was done to that.

However, it should be noted that those in the U.S. who have been most vocal in criticizing what Israel has done to Palestinians were and are equally vocal about what our country has done and still does to Native Americans. None of us lets THAT slide, so there isn't a double standard there and the canard that there is should be served in orange sauce for someone's rhetorical dinner.

[oberliner]

72. "To treat the foundation of Israel as something to celebrate and be proud of is shameful"

Is there a country in the world that does not celebrate their foundation as something to be proud of?

In what other countries is it "shameful" for people to celebrate and be proud?

I think the above statement that I've quoted from that other poster is truly preposterous.

[Ken Burch]

73. That's not a statement I necessarily would agree with Rankin on.

And I'm not sure why you're quoting it at me.

You can celebrate what was good AND acknowledge what was shameful in any historical event. And that is what all nations should do...to look at history truthfully.

To use the American examples...you can celebrate the triumph of the American Revolution as a concept and STILL acknowledge that what the state created by that revolution did terrible things to a lot of innocent people.

In the Israeli example, you can celebrate the creation of the kibbutz movement and the social democratic character of the early Israeli state and still acknowledge that Arabs living in Israel have legitimate grievances that have to be dealt with, and dealt with honestly and fairly.

[King_David]

74. The vast majority of Jews do

'treat the foundation of Israel as something to celebrate and be proud of '

and those who don`t should examine the reasons they feel ashamed .

It aint our problem,most of us beam with pride.

There was a movie once called `The Believer` (Ryan Gosling) He was ashamed and became a neo-nazi.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

100. I am aware of that

I don't feel ashamed about the Nakba - just because people from the same ethnic group/culture as me perpetrated it (and are continuing to perpetrate the aftermath of it to this day, and to celebrate it) doesn't make it in any way my fault - but I do condemn it, and the reason that I condemn it is because it was morally wrong.


Your neo-nazi jibe is as laughable as it is offensive.

[King_David]

103. Apologize if you thought it was a jibe

I was just showing that its not a Left wing or Right wing thing,this being ashamed business.

It was no offence to you.

You remind me of a cousin of mine (and I am very fond of her)

[2gabby]

106. When you say " It aint our problem,most of us beam with pride. "

It sounds as if you're laughing in the faces of Palestinian people. And I don't know why you want to do that. It sounds smug and cruel. Even if nothing wrong was done to the Palestinians, and their claims are all lies, you would still sound ruthless.

You sound heartless when you laugh off the losses of so many people. Even if you're right. I think it makes you sound less reasonable, and your position seems less than fair.

It all makes me wonder how someone who sounds so vicious can possibly be in the right.

Just thought you should know. You may laugh and criticize what I say, but I think my perception is valid in this, and you should not ignore your own behavior.

[King_David]

110. Huh ?

I do not understand what you mean ?

[2gabby]

111. well I'm sorry if I had that all wrong

I thought you wrote "It aint our problem,most of us beam with pride" as a description of your feelings.
And that seemed like a particularly one-sided view of pride when discussing the NAKBA. As if there were some victory to celebrate and be proud of, glorifying a "might makes right" philosophy.

I'm sorry if I had that wrong.

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. excellent debate between former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami and Dr. Norman Finkelstein..

regarding a whole range of issues from the founding of the state of Israel up through and including the Oslo period concluding with the peace talks at Taba, Egypt as well as a brief discussion about anti-Semitism.

This was an excellent and very calm discussion/debate that everyone interested in the history of the conflict.

Watch/listen/read transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_shlomo_ben

This debate took place on February 14, 2006 - yet the material is still very relevant in terms of trying to understand the conflict.


.

[2gabby]

66. I'm going to, right now. Thank you

And thanks to you all for the comments.

[Douglas Carpenter]

78. for the full unedited version - here is the link

Unfortunately, in order to fit into Democracy Now's one hour time slot - about 30 minutes of the debate had to be edited out - for the complete unedited version which last slightly more than an hour and a half:

link:

http://www.archive.org/details/dn-finkelstein-benami

.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.