WikiLeaks and the Goldstone Report

[shira]

A book about WikiLeaks recently published in England by editors of The Guardian sheds an entirely new light on the Goldstone report. Richard Goldstone has recently reconsidered his report's central conclusion, namely that Israeli political and military leaders specifically intended to kill innocent Palestinian civilians. But even before Goldstone's reconsideration, many objective readers of the report could not find any hard evidence to support that unlikely conclusion, for an obvious reason: No such evidence is cited in the body of the report. The best those who wrote the report could come up with was an inference that since so many civilians were killed, that result must have been intended.

Recently a leader of Hamas in Gaza acknowledged -- indeed boasted -- that most of the Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead were Hamas fighters. The number of innocent civilians killed (depending on how one defines "innocent" and "civilian" in a war fought by people who are terrorists by night and civilians by day) now appears to be about 500-600. The number of combatants killed now appears to be in excess of 700. In other words, the ratio of combatants to civilians appears to be that slightly more combatants than civilians were killed. Even one civilian death is too many but such deaths are inevitable when combatants hide among civilians, fire rockets from civilian areas and use civilians as human shields -- as Hamas routinely does.

<snip>

The recently published book about WikiLeaks strongly confirms Colonel Kemp's assessment The Guardian summarized one WikiLeaks disclosure about Afghanistan as follows:

We today learn of nearly 150 incidents in which coalition forces, including British troops, have killed or injured civilians, most of which have never been reported....

<snip>

According to the materials disclosed by Wikileaks, Israel shines in comparison to other democracies. It has a significantly better ratio of combatant to civilian deaths; it takes greater steps to avoid such casualties, and it does a better job investigating negligent and criminal behavior on the part of its soldiers. Moreover, it is seeking to protect its own civilians directly from ongoing cross-border rocket attacks and other terrorist acts, whereas the other democracies are fighting wars of choice many miles from its civilian areas.

more...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/wiki-leaks-and-the-goldst_b_850997.html

[RandomThoughts]

1. So your saying Wiki Leaks is Israel Intelligence?

Not sure about that.

I thought it was Cheney, or some world bank type group.

:shrug:

[shira]

2. I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

This just shows the ridiculous double-standards that the UN and top NGO's have against Israel.

As a former commander of British forces in Afghanistan has repeatedly claimed...

""During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population."

[RandomThoughts]

17. It was suppose to be humor.

[damntexdem]

3. The IDF and Hamas are both terrorist organizations.

We should not be surprised that civilians are killed when they fight one another.

[oberliner]

4. Do you also think the US Armed Forces is a terrorist organization?

Are there other country's armed forces to whom you would give that title besides Israel's?

[Wilms]

10. What do you think would be the opinion of worldwide civilians on the business end of US arms?

:shrug:

[shira]

5. How does it make you feel that the US, UK, and NATO are all far worse than Israel WRT civilians?

n/t

[azurnoir]

7. How does it make you feel ?

I ask because you seem to trot it in Israel's defense but never seem all to upset by it or like the author of your OP do you approve?


eta you do realize that Mr Dershowitz backed a Republican in the last election because the Democrat was not ProIsrael enough for him

[shira]

8. Makes me feel that some people whose countries act far worse than Israel are obsessed hypocrites...

...who need to spend more time doing more to restore order in their own house before making asses of themselves "looking over there" towards Israel.

I wish Americans were as self-critical of US government policies as Israelis are of theirs. For example, there's no way Israelis would stomach what US drone attacks in Pakistan have done. Haaretz alone would put that on the front page nearly every day until it stopped. Over here in the US, it's on page 9 and no one sees or hears of it.

=======

Your attacking the messenger is nothing but weak ad hominem "look over there" whataboutery. Facts are facts.

Now how does it make you feel that America is far worse than Israel?

[azurnoir]

15. But you see America is criticized and by the same people who criticize Israel

and opinions are not facts
and oh the challenge

Now how does it make you feel that America is far worse than Israel?

first off you just stated opinion not fact again

as to America we should not be in either Iraq or Afghanistan and arguably have committed war crimes in both, however we are not in the process of colonizing either

[shira]

19. Wrong. Otherwise the very same NGO's and media/blogs would criticize America for its actions...

...at least 10 times more than they criticize Israel. As it is, much of what the US does in Afghanistan and Iraq is ignored by the AIB. Like this for example...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1539400

The same "concerned" Americans who "remember" Deir Yassin way back in 1948 don't even know about that.

==========

Where's America's Haaretz or Breaking-the-Silence? Whoever they are, they're not even a fraction as influential in America as Israel's equivalents are. You couldn't be more wrong.

America kills MANY more civilians, both in quantity and proportion WRT combatants, than Israel while in combat. THAT is a fact. Now how do you feel about that?

"Colonizing" has nothing to do with actions during war time. The US fighting a war of choice thousands of miles away MORE than makes up for any of Israel's perceived "colonization".

[oberliner]

11. Alan Dershowitz: Why I Support Israel and Obama

I am a strong supporter of Israel (though sometimes critical of specific policies). I am also a strong supporter of Barack Obama (though I favored Hillary Clinton during the primaries).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/why-i-support-israel-and_b_135660.html

[azurnoir]

12. Date Posted: October 17, 2008 02:32 PM things have apparently changed n/t

[King_David]

23. Can you prove that for us please?

[King_David]

24. You said he supported Republican`s

Can you prove it for us please.

[Jefferson23]

25. Dershowitz supporting a Republican in 2010.

Alan Dershowitz Endorses Joel Pollak for Congress (Ill., 9th)



Today I am pleased to welcome Prof. Alan Dershowitz to Chicago, and humbled to receive his endorsement in the race for the 9th congressional district. It is an honor to be one of the few Republicans that Prof. Dershowitz, a life-long Democrat, has supported. And it is a privilege to welcome a sold-out audience to our fundraising luncheon today-200 enthusiastic supporters from both sides of the political divide.

Prof. Dershowitz is an inspiration to me, and to so many others. His book Chutzpah was the first political work I ever read. Later, at Harvard, I was his student and research assistant. We have worked together in debating the fiercest enemies of the U.S.-Israel relationship. Whether standing up for Israel or standing up against corruption, I have tried to emulate Prof. Dershowitz's courage, and his refusal to yield to political bullying.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/publius-forum/2010/06/alan-dershowitz-endorses-joel-pollak-for-congress-ill-9th.html

[King_David]

27. I never knew , thats crazy

Thank G-D he came to his senses.

[Jefferson23]

26. Joel Pollak, Why I'm Running as a Tea Party Republican

BY JOEL B. POLLAK
'What's an Orthodox Jew doing with the tea party?" It's a question I often confront, though I've never been asked it by fellow Republicans, or anyone involved in the tea party itself.

The questions typically come from folks who have bought the line that the tea party is an extremist cult—a Ku Klux Klan rally "without robes and hoods," in the words of Rep. Steve Cohen (D., Tenn.).

Here's my story. When I learned that my representative in Congress, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D., Ill.), had called the tea parties "shameful" and "despicable" merely for protesting the stimulus bill, I suspected ...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704342604575222194271251722.html

[azurnoir]

6. Mr Dershowitz seemed to forget that no has ever investigated the torture used by the US

in his list of 'comparisons' oh wait he supported that didn't he?

[shira]

9. Your attacking-the-messenger does nothing to challenge or dispute the facts in his article. n/t

[azurnoir]

13. They call the message into question

and he states opinion as fact, but we see much of that phenomena here

[shira]

14. The message isn't in question unless you can provide strong evidence or proof to the contrary.

All you have are ad hominem attacks.

[azurnoir]

16. No I do have fact Alan Dershowitz supported the use of torture by the US n/t

[shira]

18. That has nothing to do with the facts within this article.

Shooting the messenger is an ad-hominem logical fallacy and does NOTHING to dispute the argument or evidence.

[azurnoir]

20. what 'evidence'? that the US did not investigate the Iraqi army or police?

as to ad-hominem the very fact that Dershowitz supported the same tortures he now criticizes only makes this piece hypocrisy at its finest, as to the rest he meanders back and forth even bringing up a 1920's Harvard professor who allegedly said something antisemtic to prove his point

[shira]

21. No, evidence that FAR more civilians in proportion have been killed by US troops than combatants.

Are you actually questioning that?

If you read Dershowitz on torture, he doesn't advocate the type of torture that he is criticizing.

And what that 1920's Harvard professor said is DEFINITELY antisemitic. I'm now REALLY wondering what you consider to be genuinely antisemitic.

[azurnoir]

22. my point is that he was meandering and I already said that what the professor 90 years ago

was antisemtic

as to the civilian vs combatant deaths, yes the death toll amongst civilians has been high something the US and coalition forces havebeen greatly criticized for