Egypt's FM attacked inside Al Aksa mosque

[drdon326]

full title:Egypt's FM attacked inside Al Aksa mosque; not seriously hurt

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1071979693864

An unruly crowd had begun gathering in the area before Maher's arrival.

Before entering the mosque, Maher was attacked by bystanders who demanded to know why he was meeting the Jews. He was then asked if he wanted to go to his meetings, but he preferred to pray first.

Once inside the mosque, and soon after prayers began, worshippers began shouting at Maher that he was a traitor and that his presence was unwanted. The crowd rapidly became unruly, until it was necessary to evacuate the place.

Witnesses said Muslim extremists shouted at Maher and tried to attack him. Bodyguards surrounded the minister and whisked him out of the compound. They said he was heard saying, "I'm going to choke, I'm going to choke" as he was being taken away.

Police said protesters threw shoes at Maher. Muslims remove their shoes at the entrance to mosques.

Jerusalem police believe that the event was engineered by an extremist Islamic sect called the Liberation Party, and are currently searching the immediate area for members.
..................................................................

ironic...hes there to help them,and they try to beat the
shit out of him.

would be funny if it was so pathetic.

[Aidoneus]

1. "help them" with what?

[drdon326]

2. .

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V5081.AP-Israel-Palestin.html

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon indicated to Egypt's foreign minister Monday that Israel would respond favorably to a cease-fire offer from Palestinian militants, an Israeli official said.

Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher met with Sharon and other senior Israeli officials during his first trip to Israel in more than two years. He was in Israel in an effort to restart talks on the stalled U.S.-backed ``road map'' plan for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Egypt, which has often played a mediator's role between Israel and the Palestinians, has been pressuring Palestinian militants to halt attacks on Israel.

[Gimel]

3. Seems like...

the attackers are opposed to negotiated cease-fire.

[newyorican]

4. Or perceived sell-outs...

:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

5. They Will Have To Get Used To That, Sir

We are not discussing "indie" bands here, but questions of death and life and statecraft. No sustainable peace will incorporate things like repatriation of refugee descendants, or the continuance of jihadists as seperate armed elements within the Arab Palestinian polity. If persons wish to view a settlement incorporating these things as "selling out", they must be prepared for continual warfare, and the eventual imposition of some military solution acceptable to the ultra elements of Israel, for these are the inevitable consequence of continuing on the present course.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[The Magistrate]

7. Because It Is, Sir

Someone will doubtless soon bring up that Jewish shootist, who's name is not worth recalling, and perhaps a few embryonic plots of fundamentalist criminals, but the fact of the matter is that the Wafq's administration of this area is shot through with intolerance and incompetence, and it is left in place for no reason other than fear of the mob.

[MikeGalos]

8. Ah but

fear of the mob has not only been tolerated by the Waqf, the mob has been repeatedly encouraged by them on many occasions from the turn of the 20th Century until the present day.

[The Magistrate]

10. That Is My Point, Sir

The Waqf wields the mob, to preserve its authority.

Its breaking would not trouble me at all.

[drdon326]

9. error

e

[drdon326]

11. follow up

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1071979693864

"I'm going to choke, I'm going to choke," a panicked-looking Maher was heard saying, according to witnesses, as one of the shoes – which by Muslim tradition are taken off at the entrance to mosques – apparently hit him in the face. Striking someone with a shoe is considered a great sign of Muslim insult.

At this point, Jerusalem police rushed into the mosque and helped the Egyptian bodyguards extradite Maher from the compound, Jerusalem police spokesman Shmuel Ben-Ruby said.
For the next half hour, Maher rested inside a Magen David Adom ambulance, and received a medical examination before being transferred to the hospital, where he was kept under observation for several hours. Two other members of Maher's entourage were taken to a hospital for treatment, a Magen David Adom official said."

( ed note- and the best for last)

"Palestinian Authority officials reacted with fury and embarrassment to the attack.

Some PA officials first claimed that the attack was instigated by Israel to drive a wedge between the Palestinians and Egypt. But when pictures of Maher being assaulted by scores of Palestinians were aired, there was great embarrassment among senior PA officials.

According to these officials, an investigation was under way to determine who was behind the attack. "Those responsible for this attack will be severely punished," said one official. "We have already taken some measures in this regard."

...................................................................

thats right...immediately blame israel

that official was none other than that 'propaganda clown'
Saeb Erakat. As for that investigation, it will join other
famous PA investigations such as the korine-a and the recent killing
of the 3 americans.

what a joke.

[MikeGalos]

12. Palestinian Authority officials reacted with fury and embarrassment

Yeah, but not with arrests. Not with condemnation of Radical Islamic violence. Yet another carefully worded speech to the West.

[drdon326]

14. Mostly...

theyre mad they cant SOMEHOW pin it on israel.

ya know, every lousy joke can be funny just by
adding the words "saeb erakat" to the punchline.

[MikeGalos]

15. Nonesense

There are already sources saying that it was secretly provoked by the Israelis.

You know, when in doubt, blame the Jews. :-(

[drdon326]

16. Notice...

how it was an ISRAELI ambulance who took care of him
and transferred him to an ISRAELI hospital.

i guess the palestinian ambulances were too busy
transporting EXPLOSIVES around.

[brainshrub]

53. They can't arrest them.

Where would they put them? The jails are blown up.

[Name removed]

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[MikeGalos]

17. Update from the BBC

(Hardly an anti-PA source, btw)

Israeli police said they arrested five Palestinians, reportedly from a fringe militant group called the Liberation Party, in connection with the assault.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3341435.stm

[MikeGalos]

18. And in case you don't read to the bottom of the same article

(and apparently not worth an article of its own)

On Monday, two Israeli army officers died in an attack in Gaza.

An Israeli military spokesman said the Palestinian gunman had also been killed. Palestinian sources said the attack took place near a Jewish settlement and that it was carried out jointly by two Palestinian militant groups - al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Islamic Jihad.

[MikeGalos]

20. Interestingly

the PA Police don't seem to have arrested anybody from al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or Islamic Jihad either.

[Name removed]

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[MikeGalos]

22. WHAT?

May there be many others like it.

Are you actually calling for the murder of Israelis?

Are you really saying that killing Israeli soldiers for daring to patrol cities in the West Bank is not only not horrible but something that you advocate?

Please tell me you just mistyped that and you aren't really advocating murder.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[drdon326]

28. " unrestrained cheerleading of IDF killings"

other than terrorists, name one.

i'm saddened you support the murder of israelis who are
there to protect against terrorists....that the pa refuses
to do.

:puke:

[Aidoneus]

31. You may have picked up on this by now, my friend

We see the world differently, thus we will not refer to things in the same fashion.

[drdon326]

32. Well....

do you also support the killing of american troops in
iraq??

or is it just israelis ??

[Aidoneus]

37. That is an interesting question

There is some overlap and a sense of a comperable situation, thus a comperable response should remain somewhat similar (as you & Mike have tried to forge in my absence a bit below). The flag thing may come in to play against me, for some reason that is a remarkably stigmatizing and sterilizing force, and for that reason an ordinary mortal might shrink from honestly answering the question. I will do so, qualifying my answer with a general framework (that I fully expect to be ignored) and several conditions.

They have no right to be there, and routinely do quite a bit more of that "killing and destroying" act than the Israeli military does. The PR campaign in the case of the former is not much of a concern, and there is not so much an interest in "image" as with the Israelis; thus there is a more prevelant mix of brutality & blatent lies in this case, rather than the "moral" brutality & intense spin control of the other. The "oops, our bad! sorry!" line tends to overlap, unfortunately..

All things considered, there isn't a positive balance to be gained from the continuation. The occupation forces routinely engage in acts that would be deemed very criminal if done within our borders, but since they are done outside of them they are referred to as "heroic" and considered sacred. You speak so vigorously against the Palestinian Hamas movement, yet American invading forces in Iraq have murdered exponentially more people in a fraction of the time than a dozen Hamas clones could do if given decades.

Those that quite often engage in murder, hit and run manslaughter, kidnapping and hostage taking, racketeering, deliberate humiliation, arrogant manipulations, and such will continiously provoke a very natural response, regardless of whatever my own thoughts on the matter may be.

[drdon326]

43. Really??

"Those that quite often engage in murder, hit and run manslaughter, kidnapping and hostage taking, racketeering, deliberate humiliation, arrogant manipulations, and such will continiously provoke the response that is coming to them--my own individual approval or disapproval, or any opinion in between or beyond those two, is somewhat irrelevant as to how things work out."

yet...it not so "irrelevant" for you toattempt to rationalize the murder of israeli protecting against furthur attacks.

AND one more thing...

"The occupation forces routinely engage in acts that would be deemed very criminal if done within our borders, but since they are done outside of them they are referred to as "heroic" and considered sacred."


But killings have different meanings....you dont equate the criminal
murderer with the cop who blows him away while being shot at.
Again i am amazed tonite.

[The Magistrate]

33. Your Point Is Sound, Mr. Aidoneus

It is not murder to kill soldiers in a state of war, and it would certainly be much to be prefered if the various irregular bodies of Arab Palestine were to aim their attacks consistently against soldiers rather than, as is so often the case, aim them deliberately against civilians. That was the sense your remarks conveyed to me, at least.

[MikeGalos]

35. May there be more

is hardly calling for a difference in targets for murder. It is the direct advocacy for an increase in those murders.

And, as Israel and the PA are NOT in a state of war, it clearly is murder that is being advocated.

(Note on edit, the actual quote was "may there be many others like it". Still, the point is the same. The poster is calling for an increase in the murder of Israelis. No less. And clarified it in later posts to make sure that the point was taken.)

[Jack Rabbit]

41. It's not war?

Wow, that's news to me.

Israel is a hostile occupying force in the Palestinian Territories. The Palestinians have a right to resist the occupation. Firing on the agents of that occupation, the IDF, is part of that.

My condolences to that families of the dead. However, uniformed soldiers on occupation duty are legitimate targets for a resistance movement. It is not murder.

Setting off a bomb in a cafe in Haifa is murder.

[drdon326]

52. Well then,

if it is war, then all constraints are lifted with an
irregular army that follows NONE of the standards of war.

You cant have it both ways, jack.

"However, uniformed soldiers on occupation duty are legitimate targets for a resistance movement."

does that also extend to the iraqis using rpg's to kill
american soldiers??

[Violet_Crumble]

54. US troops....

"However, uniformed soldiers on occupation duty are legitimate targets for a resistance movement."

does that also extend to the iraqis using rpg's to kill
american soldiers??

Of course it does. Care to explain how it doesn't??

Violet...

[Jack Rabbit]

58. Response

I'm not exactly certain what your first sentence means. However, neither The Magistrate nor I are suggesting that there is a system of law at work that imposes rules on one side and not the other. No one is trying to have it both ways.

Fundamentally, the rules are that the population of a country under foreign occupation has the right to resist. In most cases, that will be done by irregular forces, such as the French resistance during World War II.

The laws of war apply equally to regular and irregular forces. Combatants are legitimate targets; noncombatants are protected persons. Under international law, the atrocity that we have come to call a suicide bombing, when directed at a civilian target such as a cafe or a commuter bus, is a war crime.

Internatinal humanitarian law also applies to the US occupation of Iraq. Uniformed US soldiers, as agents of a hostile occupation force in Iraq, are legitimate targets for the Iraqi resistance.

[Aidoneus]

42. Of course

You are obviously in a better position to elaborate & expand on what I said, than somebody like....myself, for instance. :eyes:

Please don't put words in my mouth. What I do, in fact, say will probably be more interesting (or appalling, from where you stand) than whatever could be crudely forged in my name.

[drdon326]

36. ok , Magistrate....

see if you like this:

The fullest extent of the rights of AMERICAN soldiers in the occupied lands CALLED IRAQ is to leave them and never return. They enter these lands in order to kill and destroy, and do so on a regular basis. I see no problem with resisting these aggressions, with force or through other means.

[MikeGalos]

38. Or

the American military are walking bullseyes in when they invade cities in Iraq. May there be many others like it.

Damn that Iraqi Resistance for not being a total US-Israeli lackey, as opposed to the half-assed US-Israeli lackey it is now..

[Aidoneus]

49. that other "in" wasn't meant to be there

changed the phrasing around a couple times on that sentence, the "in" was mistakenly leftover from the previous wording.

That whole bit, as it exactly stood, doesn't quite carry over properly; the part DrDon tinkered with works out better.

[The Magistrate]

40. It Does Not Make A Difference To Me, Doctor

Iraqis resisting the U.S. occupation of their country act properly if they kill U.S. soldiers, or, for that matter, kill Iraqis serving in the forces of the governing authority erected there by the United States. Iraqis have every right to resist the invasion and occupation of their country. This is so regardless of my view of the invasion and occupation, and regardless of my view of those who resist it. The act is not a criminal one, but a legitimate act of war. The same standard must be applied to all, or it is no standard at all.

It is the application of this standard that enables me to argue the Israeli armed forces have every right to kill without warning a Hamas militant, for example, even if he is at a crowded intersection if they can strike him no other way, or that they do no wrong if they return fire at a sniper and strike a child nearby at play instead. They are at war, and acting accordingly, and within its legitimate bounds. Similarly, if a member of one of the various armed irregular bodies that constitute the armed forces of Arab Palestine shoots an Israeli soldier, he peforms a legitimate act of war. The one cannot be argued without conceding the other, my friend.

[Lithos]

47. That is the issue in a nutshell

While I mourn the loss of every life, I also realize the world is an imperfect place and that war is a necessary evil at times.

I agree that civilized society has through a series of protocols and conventions have rationalized and legitimized the killing of soldiers who are considered active militants while protecting non-combatants such as civilians, the incapacitated and the pows. And while the modern age has seen the re-birth of irregular militants, the base rules still apply.

So to say that soldiers are a legitimate target is an unfortunate reality.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[drdon326]

24. Suddenly...

i'm not laughing anymore.

[MikeGalos]

25. I was really, really hoping I'd read that wrong

Apparently I didn't. And that's definitely not amusing...

;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(;(
:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[Aidoneus]

39. from the "for what it's worth" file..

It is good that they seem to have stopped with the humanbombs in "Green Line" Israeli cities (those I tend to greatly disapprove of, though there is a certain flair of hypocrisy to the subject that I will not often endorse), in order to concentrate more on targetting military forces in the occupied lands.

[drdon326]

44. Get real...

they didnt stop....theyre just having more difficulty
doing it.

please dont make them sound like they are suddenly
little angels who now seen the light.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[drdon326]

19. Israel arrests 5 ...

(its just too easy....)

but the PA is STILL investigating.

[Lithos]

27. Maybe some more detail

It was Municipal police from Jerusalem who detained 7 suspects.
This makes quite a bit of sense, for while the Waqf controls the nominal administration of the Temple Mount, it is in an area which is NOT under any form of control by the PA, but rather Israeli civilian control. (Remember Israel "annexed" quite a bit of East Jerusalem following the '67 war, this area being part of it.). side note, I think this needs to be placed back up on the bargaining table. In the end, I think it most of it should end up under Israeli control following suitable and equitable provisions for the holy sites and other territorial adjustments favorable to the PA

Considering the non-overlap between the Israeli municpal jurisdiction and the PA, it is highly unlikely the PA would have been able to make the arrest or conduct anything more than a cursory investigation.

So to accuse the PA of being ineffective in this case is disingenuous.

[MikeGalos]

30. Actually

I'd expect the PA to make arrests of other members of the same organization for planning and other illegal organization charges not the actual arrest of the people involved as they were probably not on PA controlled land.

[Lithos]

45. It still doesn't follow

While this group is formed by/from Palestinians, it is been from the refugee camps and not the OT where it draws its support and where it evidently has a minimal presence.

It also has been more interested in supporting a violent version of the extremist Islamic religious revival than in concentrating on the I/P conflict.

The Islamic Liberation Party. In 1952-53, a group of Palestinians led by Shaykh Taqi al-Din al-Nabahani founded the Islamic Liberation Party (Hizb al-Tahrir al-Islami). The party opened branches in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and later on in Germany, the UK and France. In the 1980s, it began operating in Turkey, India, and Pakistan, and in the 1990s widened its activity to Central Asia (mainly Uzbekistan) and the South Caucasus (primarily Daghestan). Although the party has not been involved in the "struggle" against Israeli rule in the West Bank and Gaza since 1967, it has a long history of terrorist and subversive activity elsewhere. In 1974, Dr. Salih Sirriyyah, a Palestinian member of the party, led the Islamist group that carried out the first terrorist operation-against the military academy in Cairo-in the era of the Islamic revival in Egypt. The party has also been involved in political subversion and terrorism against the regime in Jordan since the 1950s; early this year, there was another wave of arrests among its members and supporters there (as well as in Syria).

Although Palestinians have a strong influence in the party, they are not involved in all its branches and activities. The party has a large base in London, allowing it to influence Indian and Pakistani immigrants in the UK. And according to the Uzbek authorities, the Islamic Liberation Party was behind the attempt to assassinate Islam Karimov, the Uzbek president, in February 1999. More recently, in February 2000, members of the party were involved in violent clashes with the Lebanese Armed Forces in northern Lebanon.

And in following with the lack of direct involvement in the I/P conflict, I suspect that the attack on the Egyptian FM had more to do with local Egyptian events where the Islamic Liberation Party is very active. See:

http://www.islamonline.net/english/news/2002-10/20/article78.shtml


L-

[Aidoneus]

46. Hizbu Tahrir isn't accurately described as a "militant" group

except in the sense that their weapon of choice is the dialogue and the pamphlet, raised in opposition. That alone passes for "terrorism" under the more dictatorial regimes such as those in Jordan, China, and Uzbekistan, but the distinction should be noted anyway.

[The Magistrate]

51. This Bunch Is Not Familiar To Me, Mr. Aidoneus

You are saying that to your knowledge they are not an armed faction, but more of a clique of agitators?

[Aidoneus]

55. to the best of my knowledge that is true

I am more familiar with their European & Central Asian activities than in the Arab lands, but the official tendencies of the movement are familiar enough for me to guess. The agenda they promote is very ambitious, and they are indeed a "radical" movement, but they prefer pamphlets to explosives and political analysis & discussions to Kalashnikovs.

This is so even when under the force and oppressive state violence of particulary that of the Uzbekh dictator Karimov, who has held thousands of HUT members in his prisons. There are recent "fears" among analysts of the area that their approach may be altered in the face of this state suppression and that they would be more like the IMU (Karimov's other, and more militant, opposition in the pan-Fergana area), but all the same it has yet to do so and I assume this is the case in the several dozen other locations in the world that the organization exists in.

Their appeal is, to some degree, across the board in situations where they are locally placed in opposition to a repressive state (as any decent opposition worth its salt could muster up), but particularly so among the educated and professional layers of society in less extraordinary situations. Their approach loses some of its appeal to those with a less long-term approach, and more actively militant movements pick up more support on such grounds.

I don't doubt that the act described above would have been by a member of the organization, as the Egyptian state has made great sport of imprisoning and torturing HUT members for many years and there exists a great deal of irreconciliable differences.

[The Magistrate]

57. Thank You, Sir

Your knowledge of these matters, my friend, and your willingness to share it, is much appreciated.

[dudeness]

48. If I may add my humble opinion?

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this conflict is in fact a war..therefore, as much as I abhor it, certain rules of war apply, whilst this may be an oxymoron, these rules applied by a higher legal body than perhaps a Israeli military tribunal or as indicated, not applied at all by the PA..would seem a path both conflicting parties should agree on..as I have stated in the past, a political solution would seem out of reach, perhaps when parties accede to laws that apply , the atrocities may slow. for these reasons the ICC or its equivalent must be endorsed by all countries and its rulings binding..

[meti57b]

56. did anyone apologize to Egypt for the actions of this group?