Hamas-Fatah Jointly Take Responsibility for Erez Attack

[drdon326]

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=56177

Hamas and Fatah, the latter under the direct authority of PLO leader Yasser Arafat, jointly claimed responsibility for this morning’s suicide bombing at the Erez Crossing in Gaza. Four Israelis were murdered in the attack.

A 21-year-old female Fatah member carried out the attack, after explaining to soldiers that she may set off the metal detector because of a metal plate in her leg. She was then sent for a body check by a female soldier at the checkpoint. She detonated her explosives as she waited at the checkpoint.
.......................................................

also

.........................................................
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3395177.stm

The woman blew herself up inside a security office at about 1000 (0800 GMT) as Palestinians were going through security checks before entering a nearby industrial complex.


Israeli officials said the bomber tricked soldiers by saying she had a metal implant in her leg.

"Because she was a woman, a female soldier was sent for to search her. She used this opportunity to enter the building, a metre or two past the door, and blow up," said Israeli Brigadier-General Gadi Shamni, commander of Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip.

Witnesses described chaotic scenes as the woman detonated her explosives.

"Glass and black smoke flew everywhere," an unnamed Palestinian told Reuters. "Arabs were screaming, Jews were screaming, nobody knew what was going on."

Another witness said: "I heard soldiers screaming, the blast was very strong, and I saw one of the women ... bleeding from her legs."

Hamas and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades identified the bomber as Hamas member Reem Raiyshi, a mother-of-two in her early 20s, from the Gaza Strip.
........................................................


i'm sure her family is real proud of her.

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Surprising attitutdes

For peace-loving freedom fighters.

;)

[RUexperienced]

2. I have no sympathy for these

b#st#rds. I hope they all rot.

[GabysPoppy]

3. I have to wonder

Will she be listed in next's week report, listed as a "work related" death?

[wunnerfulrobin]

4. All three posts excellent!

Maybe the rest of the world will wake up and see these "people" for waht they are......murderers. If they stopped, the Israelis would stop. its that simple.

[bluesoul]

5. These people??

So Palestinians are murderes as such? ALL of them? Here we go again, sounds very familiar...

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Clearly talking about terrorists

Since it is an article about terror bombings.

[Name removed]

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[Muddleoftheroad]

8. Clearly, you are incorrect

The rest of the world DOES NOT know what to think of terror attacks. We've seen posters even at DU who defend or rationalize such actions.

Even the Welsh granny in another thread was doing the same.

This thread is about the extensive problem of Palestinian terror, not all Palestinians, no matter how hard to try to paint people as bigots.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Forkboy]

45. lol

funniest post down here in ages.

[The Magistrate]

53. That Is Nonsense, Mr. Zwanzig

It is necessary only to look at the casualty returns to demonstrate it so. A little more than a fifth of the Israelis killed by the various Arab Palestinian irregulars' actions are military personnel: more than three-quarters are civilians. If the majority of the Arab Palestinian irregulars' operations were carried out against military objectives, this could not be the case. You have tried this foolish assertion out before; it was false the first time, false the second time, and will be false all the subsequent times you trot it out. You may continue to provide comedy by it, but that is abbout all the effect it will have.

What discredits the legitimate right of the people of Arab Palestine to resist occupation, and to war for a state of their own, is the conduct of their self-constituted military arm, composed of irregular bodies who have adopted as their chief tactic indiscriminate attacks on enemy civilians. This is criminal behavior, and properly described as such. So long as the means used to pursue the cause are criminal, the actions in pursuit of that cause are illegitimate, and most people will judge the cause by the means, and regard it, and all who pursue it, as illegitimate as well. That is the greatest obstacle faced today by the people of Arab Palestine.

[vierundzwanzig]

57. Surprisingly

the PA has an army! That certainly is an organized body. It serves the interests of Israel and not the interests of the Palestinian people, otherwise it would act differently.

Furthermore to associate the casualties of heavily armed entities vs. civilians and draw the consequence that civilians must be attacked more often is a plain non-sequitur.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. The PA serves the interests of Israel?

Since when?

[The Magistrate]

62. No It Is Not, Mr. Zwanzig

Your statement that it is is nonsense. It is nothing more than an attempt to wriggle away from the clear facts you seek to misrepresent. You are in the unfortunate position of supporting a legitimate cause, that is being pressed by criminal means. Understandably, rather than address this contradiction squarely, you seek to make it disappear, and the method you choose is bald-faced pretense the means really are not criminal. Since they are, and all fair-minded persons acknowledge that, even the majority of persons here advocating for the same cause as you, the attempt can impose upon no one. You would do better to acknowledge the criminality, and to deplore it, and attempt either to press the case that the balance of criminality nonetheless resides with your opponent, or to stress the legitimacy of the cause regardless of the means employed.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Oh that pesky Western press

They just make up all those bombings that target civilians on buses or in pizza parlors or sitting in schools.

The western press works as more of a marketing arm for Hamas and their ilk than it does work against them, so your complaint goes nowhere with me.

Right now, there is no "legitimate" resistance. Yes, there could be, but none of the many Palestinian terror groups has decided to go that route.

[Darranar]

65. Attacks on IDF soldiers are legitimate resistance.

[GabysPoppy]

81. If what you say is true and this report is also true

"The Hamas leadership repeatedly spurned her requests, until Yassin himself intervened. Hamas has previously resisted the use of female suicide bombings on ideological grounds. However, when Hamas operatives brought a plan to bomb the Erez crossing into the joint Israeli-Palestinian industrial zone, the Hamas leadership put ideology aside and adopted the plan most likely to succeed."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=46847

Does that make Hamas spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin a legitimate military target himself? If he a participant in "legitimate resistance" (your words), then by your definition a military offensive against him would likewise be legitimate.

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. By any definition

That bastard is a military target and wouldn't live out the night if I had any say in the matter.

[bluesoul]

84. You scare me

:scared:

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. Why?

Because I'm honest?

[GabysPoppy]

89. What is your preference?

His elimination or his being part of the planning of another act of terrorism?

[bluesoul]

91. ....

:shrug:

[GabysPoppy]

92. Just as I thought

Get back to us when you have figured it out.

[bluesoul]

93. ....

:shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Yr incorrect, Muddle...

This one wasn't an act of terrorism. The attack was on a military target....

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Tell that to the Palestinians

Who were attacked as well. This attack attempt to interdict CIVILIAN travel and those injured included civilians. That's the very basis of terror.

[Darranar]

95. How do you know the suicide bomber targeted the Palestinians?

[Violet_Crumble]

96. Attacks on military targets aren't terrorism...

And it very much appears it's YOU I'm telling it to. What's reality is that attacks on military targets aren't terrorism. The fact that civilians were injured doesn't make it terrorism. Not unless you believe that IDF extra-judicial killings that result in civilian casualties are terrorism because civilians were injured or killed? While neither case is terrorism, they do display a marked lack of concern for civilians...

Violet...

[Aidoneus]

9. attacking military targets is still a "terror bombing"?

on what grounds?

[JohnLocke]

11. Aidoneus...

...The bombing occurred in a security area where Palestinian laborers undergo security checks before working. Implying that this was not a terrorist attack is akin to saying that blowing up an airport security checkpoint is a "legitimate target."

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[Violet_Crumble]

97. Nonsense...

One is a military checkpoint that's very much a part of the occupation, and the other is a civil venture that's got no connection to the occupation at all. The effort people are putting into trying to portray a legitimate attack on a military target as terrorism is pretty eye-opening...

Violet...

[GabysPoppy]

15. Considering

Four Palestinians were also injured. Sounds like terrorist activity to me. Terrorism can be defined as an action where you don't care who the target of hate is.

Still want to debate this incident?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[GabysPoppy]

48. This is why it upsets me so much

Unless you can tell me the four Palestinians had blood other than red, you can call it collateral damage. I don't.

I would suspect that these injured Palestinians might very well fall in the 50% group who are NOT supporters of terrorism

What also upsets me is that it doesn't appear to make you upset.

[vierundzwanzig]

63. The whole thing makes me upset

'Collateral damage' on both sides upsets me. The killing upsets me. The occupation upsets me. It upsets me that people feel a need to blow themselves up.

It upsets me just as much when Israelis die as when Palestinians do (except soldiers which have chosen killing and getting killed as a career path).

It particularly upsets me that you and I cannot openly agree on moral grounds because it apparently takes the assumption of extreme positions to eventually at a 'balanced view'.

You and I both agree on the fact that the occupation is wrong. You know as well as I that when the occupation ends the level of attacks on civilians will sharply drop, with the exception of the real fringe groups.

We both agree that the Israelis are sick and tired to have to walk through a metal detector to go to the mall and they are no worse or better than a Palestinian.

You and I both know that both sides have fallen prey to propaganda. The vast majority of both sides just want this whole mess to be over and a tremendous improvement would be the removal of the settlements.

You know there is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine.

We both know that pretty much all Arab regimes are corrupt but the U.S. has certainly done their part.

Both sides dig their own graves.

So why do you and muddle have to cry wolf every time Israeli civlians are killed and I and others when innocent (non-combatant) Palestinians do?

It is this kind of attitude that makes it so hard to allow the West to exert the necessary pressure to even approach closure.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. They were not "collateral damage"

The Palestinians were very much targets in this case. They are, I'm sure they murdering psychopaths in Hamas would argue, collaborators for even using the checkpoints.

So the death of soldiers doesn't upset you even though they die defending their nation form the cowardly bastards who blow up civilians and celebrate when they kill women and children?

And, I don't really see people here blaming the life-stealing psycho terrorists for taking yet more Palestinian lives. If I were a Palestinian, I'd be at war with them. If I were a member of the families who had just be attacked, I'd go out and kill me a few to even the odds.

Like it or not, sooner or later the good folks of Palestine are going to have to fight the bad ones for the soul of their people. Until that day happens, the only ones expressing any true will of the Palestinian people are the scumbag bastards who blow up innocents.

[bluesoul]

86. So you want a civil war

and hope they finish off themselves, so there will be no more Palestinians, hey?

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. It is needed and will happen

The terrorists aren't going to leave on their own. The Palestinian people will have to remove them or have them continue to be the sole expression of the Palestinian will.

I only want the terrorists killed off personally, but in any military situation, people on both sides die.

[GabysPoppy]

90. Bit of a reach your statement

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Okay, that was weird...

Suddenly there's a whole heap of concern for injured Palestinians?? Seeing as how this was an attack on a military target and NOT terrorism, how does the attitude about injured civilians differ from times when the IDF kill Palestinian civilians in the course of carrying out extra-judicial assassinations of those they claim are terrorists?


Violet...

[Blitz]

67. Your comment

demonstrates that you know nothing about the Frence Resistance or their tactics ... and that you continue to compare Israelis to Nazis.

[Gimel]

18. A father of 5 died

Only the night before a private car was attacked by a Palestinian sniper killing a father of 5 (including 3-month-old triplets). No one bothered to post on that thread.

I guess killing civilians is more "normal" and not worthy of comment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=46316&mesg_id=46316

[Darranar]

29. Are...

assasinations of militants that kill civilians terror bombings?

Are Israeli incursions into the West Bank and Gaza taht result in civilian deaths terror incursions?

[Gimel]

14. Yes, indeed

the same old round around. Palestinians are innocent. It's Israelis that you are allowed to call murderers.

[JohnLocke]

10. Of course. The human rights groups will report it.

It's all Israel's fault!

[drdon326]

12. I got it !!

Lets give them a state.

[bluesoul]

13. They don't need your permission

They'll have a state, with or without Sharon in power...

[Gimel]

72. Of course

Hamas takes credit, but it's Israel's fault. Standard procedure.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. And of course you'll provide a link to that, right?

Or a link to where human rights groups have done that before. But as someone who keeps up with what human rights groups are saying, I know that yr claim isn't true, so I won't hold my breath waiting for something that doesn't exist...

Violet...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[GabysPoppy]

20. Sir

I am mocking a BIASED report!!!!!!

Your second line is offensive.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[drdon326]

21. No Bill....

*I* do the mocking.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[bluesoul]

17. Very funny

such remarks really do speak in volume...

[Forkboy]

22. And I'm supposed to be concerned with anti-semitism?

who worries about comments like these? Certainly not the people who want us to worry about anti-semitism I bet.

[GabysPoppy]

24. Yes Mr. Forkboy

I would certainly hope you would be more concerned about anti-semitism than an attempt at very bad and distasteful humor.

[Forkboy]

33. I wasn't trying to be funny

I meant it.

And I'd take your comments much more seriously had you spoken about the comments I was responding to.You had more trouble with my comments I see.

Not suprising.

[GabysPoppy]

50. If you read my post a little more completely

You would see that I did reference those comments.

Did I not say they were in poor taste?

Did I not say they were distasteful?

[Forkboy]

51. You did...I misread that

My apologies...and thank you.

[GabysPoppy]

52. Apology accepted

Thank you for being a mensch, and I say that with sincerity

[Erica Cartman]

31. Why should it be

difficult for anyone to be concerned about anti-Semitism regardless of what else it brought into the discussion? Is that the rationale for supporting suicide bombers? The dirty Jews deserve it?

WOW!

[Forkboy]

34. Your comments are based on your thoughts obviously

as I said nothing of the sort.

[Erica Cartman]

35. Please re-read your #22.

[Forkboy]

37. You re-read it

and quote where I said anything you think I did.

[Darranar]

36. I disagree...

There are plenty of people who worry and pay attention to ALL forms of bigotry and racism, towards any and all people, and wish others did the same.

[Forkboy]

38. You would hope so Darranar

but after spending over a year down here I'm doubtful there's many of them.

[Erica Cartman]

40. If one thought I/P a realistic

measure, one would cry every moment of every day; however, I/P is but an aberration in a great big world of many more people who are trying to work together rather than one-up each other with inflicting pain.

[Forkboy]

42. I/P is a microcosm of the larger situation

but maybe I'm just pessimistic.

[Erica Cartman]

43. I must admit I'm pessimistic as well, but

I see I/P as a microcosm of nothing; more an aberration - which probably explains why so many DUers who care about the subject just won't post here.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

44. But your statement is still innaccurate...

You wrote:

Certainly not the people who want us to worry about anti-semitism I bet.

However, there are people concerned about anti-semitism, as well as other forms of bigotry and racism, regardless of the people who are targetted. Many such people also would like others to share their concern. The particular number of such people is besides the point.

You have a point, however, when it comes to those who try to depict the world as a great anti-semitic,anti-zionist, and anti-Israel force seeking to destroy Israel and hand it to Palestinian terrorists.

[Forkboy]

47. Quit being the voice of reason

I'm not in the mood :)

You're right,of course.I'm just very sick of people ON BOTH SIDES who want me to feel bad about one set of atrocities while ignoring another set.The selective outrage is really pissing me off.

Emphasized ON BOTH SIDES to show that my disgust is not limited to one side or the other.

[Darranar]

49. Okay, thanks for clarifying.

[Jim Sagle]

73. And so am I.

[Darranar]

23. Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade claimed responsibility, not Fatah...

There are unquestionably links between the two, but not to the extent that they could be considered the same thing.

[vierundzwanzig]

25. Been there

and passed the place a month ago. You wouldn't comment as liberally as you do if you knew the place.

[Erica Cartman]

32. Bizarre

take on this.

A woman blew herself and others up, but one wouldn't comment as liberally if one knew the place as you do.

Right.:eyes: :smoke:

[vierundzwanzig]

39. It's the entry to a prison

What do expect? Courtesy of the prisoners?

Somebody attacked the occupiers and, according to NPR, caused no other than Israeli casualties whose identity (speak armed force or not) is withheld by the IDF and everybody gets all excited.

Sure smells to me like only Israeli soldiers got killed and that gives the story a very different spin, doesn't it?

Like the Tel Aviv bombing? How many here knew that it was only IDF that got killed at that bus stop?

All the 'details' get lost in the shuffle.

[Erica Cartman]

41. You are right.

That changes everything.

Kudos to NPR and the murder of Israeli soldiers!

[Violet_Crumble]

77. Well, that makes it clear...

I've read calls in the past for there to be a halt to attacks on civilians and for legitimate resistance instead. Now when there is a legitimate attack on a military target, there's still attempts to label it as terrorism and murder. I know yr now tombstoned, but in case yr still reading, the killing of Israeli soldiers in the conflict isn't murder anymore than the killing of Palestinian militants are. What's become clear to me in this thread is that there are people who are so opposed to any sort of resistance to the occupation that they'll label any resistance at all as terrorism despite the huge holes it puts in their claims that Israeli attacks on militants are legitimate...

Violet...

[durutti]

54. Typical distortion.

Fatah didn't claim responsibility. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades did. Martyrs Brigades members are members of Fatah, but it's an autonomous group, and not officially connected to or commanded by Fatah in any way.

[GabysPoppy]

55. Does it matter?

You would think these various groups received frequent flyer miles if they get the responsibilty for each individual act of terrorism.

[The Magistrate]

56. No, Sir, It Does Not

Any more than does a series of shell corporations erected towards a tax swindle matter in assessing who pockets the swag and who cooked the books. These off-shoot groups are simply a means to provide plausible deniability for certain political leaders.

[vierundzwanzig]

61. These groups operate

completely independently from Arafat. He would like nothing more than to stop their actions so he can finally be the first 'president' of a Palestinian state.

What Hamas, Johad, Hizbullah and what-they-are-all-called do is in direct conflict of the interests of the PA which falsely believe that what their administration does is of any consequence.

I talked to a Supreme Judge, legal advisor and economic advisor and in provate they don't take themselves. It pays the bills (not very well) and that is it. It is a charade.

A friend of mine recently applied for employment at the PA and, after interviewing for qualifications, was told that some sort of signature on a paper by the Israelis was required. The thought of it.

Nothing in the PA happens without Israeli approval.

Arafat is a convenient scapegoat such as Bin Laden for world terrorism. Do we really believe that (of, since you like that term so much) terror would decrease if either Arafat or Bin Laden were killed?

There are big billboards in Gaza seeking membership in the various resistance factions. I don't think anybody in the PA likes them to be put up.

[The Magistrate]

64. You Have Stated Above, Mr. Zwanzig, The P.A. Has An Army

Let it, therefore, deploy it against these persons you claim act against its will. Until it does, the presumption must be such persons act in accord with it desire: "What is not forbidden is enjoined."

As a matter of practical fact, the Jihadist groups are indeed hostile to the Palestine Authority, while Al Aksa is a covert arm of Fatah.

Arafat interests me in this regard solely in the manner by which he attempts to have it both ways; to reap political credit in one venue for armed struggle, and in another for moderating it. It is a canny performance, but in the real service of nothing but his careerist tendencies. He claims leadership: let him, therefore, lead. Let him exert the authority he claims to possess, and bend the polity he claims leadership over to his will, or else abandon his pretense he is the leader of Areab Palestine. You are correct he does not cause all that occurs, but he does not exert himself to halt it, and therefore, by virtue of his claim to command, what he does not halt is chargeable to him.

[vierundzwanzig]

68. Indeed it does

The Palestinian army operates half-heartedly in any respect. Primarily it protects goverment (PA) operatives that are less than popular. So they sit at some mini-checkpoint, probably reading the latest issue of Pokemon and watch the cars drive by, (It's interesting to note that the Israeli checkpoints employ concrete barriers that force you to take some sort of zig-zag course (if the checkpoint is that liberal) whereas the Plaestinian army checkpoints use plastic barriers (think pylons).

These guys aren't able to stop Daffy Duck much less a determined member of a fighter operation to carry out its mission.

But please keep in mind: This is because Arafat can't have a hanky-panky without Israeli approval, not because there isn't some sort of leadership that can impose structure.

Even the police is a joke: I remember walking the streets of Ramallah at night and some automatic-weapon armed officers were patrolling the road. I was wearing an army jacket, it was dark, I have a rather wild bear - I could have been Bin Laden for all intents and purposes.

Of course they cannot keep tabs on honk-and-run traffic. The most intense thing I have ever seen these clowns do is keep the streets open for a marathon race in Beit Sahour.

And you expect them to control militant groups?

[The Magistrate]

71. My Expectation Of Them, Sir

Is that they will earn their salt and do what they are told to by their seniors; that is my expectation of any body of soldiery.

You sell these fellows short in your assessment of their capabilities, Sir. They lounge about now because that is what they are told to do: if they were told to shoot, they would do so, and as capably as any other men with guns. Arafat may well flinch from confronting the jihadists because he is not certain he would win the conflict, or not win it quickly and easily, anyway, but that is not a lack of capability, only of nerve and courage and leadership. Arafat has never displayed these things: he is an intruiger and a trimmer specializing in postures that he cannot back up with actions, but that strike an image which resonates with people who dwell in dreams of pride and rage. He is quite good at that, and has parleyed it into a fair living.

For Arafat to act against the jihadists would be in Israel's interest as well as his own: it is therefore futile to pretend he does not do so because the Israelis have told him not to. Indeed, it is futile to pretend he does only what Israel says: Israel has told him to move against those who attack Israel on numerous occassions, and he has not done so....

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Not so at all...

For Arafat to act against the jihadists would be in Israel's interest as well as his own:

No, it is not in the interests of the GOI for Arafat to act against terrorists. To claim that is to ignore the fact that Sharon gained power and remains there out of fear in the electorate. Once that fear's gone, so's Sharon, which is why he and Arafat need continued conflict in order to survive. Neither of them is at all interested in seeing an end to the conflict...

And it's important to remember that while Israel may well have told him in the past to move against those who attack Israel, at the same time the Israeli govt has done everything it can to ensure that even if he did something, nothing would result from it, except for maybe an outbreak of civil war in the Occupied Territories, something that I strongly suspect wouldn't bother Sharon at all. I've recently come to the conclusion that Sharon actually is a remarkably stupid individual, because what he doesn't seem to be able to grasp is that with all the extra-judicial killings and house demolitions and killings of civilians, Israel is contributing to the support of the very factions, who if they were to gain power, would bring much more of a threat to Israel than anything happening now. That's not to mention the misery the Palestinian people would face under a bunch of fundamentalist Islamic whackos...


Violet...

[The Magistrate]

94. Certainly It Is In The Interests Of Israel, Ma'am

To have the jihadists broken, by any means. The aim of Israel is security for its citizens; the leading menace to them is the jihadists, who provide the greatest proportion of those who kill them in this war of the peoples. It does not seem a reasonable proposition to me that any considerable faction of the Israeli polity actually wishes there to be a persistence of the attacks against its people for its own political gain. Sharon will certainly take advantage of the persistence of such attacks, but would end them if he could. He may not grasp what is the best way to end them, but that is a seperate question.

The attacks against Palestine Authority infrastructure you point out are illustrative of this. They began as an effort to goad the Palestine Authority into taking action against the jihadists, on the principle that the Palestine Authority would be made to suffer for not doing so, and draw the conclusion that there was more to fear from the Israelis for not acting than fom the jihadist for acting against them. In Sharon's younger days, similar policies were employed against Jordan and Egypt in response for feydayeen infiltrations across the borders, and in the case of Jordan, at least, had some measure of the desired effect. However, as the Palestine Authority proved mulish in this instance recently, the policy was a failure, and rather than realize this early on, and find some other way to influence the target toward the desired behavior, Sharon continued under the miscalculation that applying ever greater weight behind the initial course would gain the desired effect. That is always a foolish course, and the result was that the destruction continued to a point where an excellent argument could be made that the behavior desired was now impossible, due to the harm done in seeking to force it to be done. This is the sort of thing life does to the unreflective.

[Blitz]

69. Bin Laden is a scapegoat?

Interesting.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. Why?

[vierundzwanzig]

58. No

but they get more of a following.