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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 04:05 PM
Original message
Father of five murdered in ambush near Ramallah
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El3189&enZone=Security&enVersion=0&">Father of five murdered in ambush near Ramallah
Israel Insider -- Wednesday, January 14, 2004


Roi Arbel, 28, a father of five, was killed and two others were moderately wounded when terrorists opened fire Tuesday evening on an Israeli vehicle near the Jewish community of Talmon, northwest of Jerusalem, where he lived. The IDF launched a hunt for the perpetrators, who escaped via a back road to nearby Arab villages. He was the first Israeli terrorist fatality in three weeks.
Only three months ago, Roi and his wife Hagit, celebrated the birth of premature triplets - two girls and a boy. The boy has not yet been released from a hospital and may be named for his slain father, Army Radio reported.
The attack occurred at about 7:30 p.m., when Arbel was returning home from his job at Motorola in Ramat Gan. Terrorist gunmen ambushed the car in which he was traveling not far from the entrance to Talmon. Police later found eight shells from bullets fired from a Kalashnikov assault rifle.
Arbel was the first victim of Palestinian violence from the community of Talmon. His brother-in-law, Pinchas Greenberg, also a resident of the community, was the driver of the ambulance that arrived to extend initial medical care to the injured passengers of the car.
(...)
According to an initial investigation, at least two terrorists were involved in the ambush on the car. According to one report they escaped to the nearby village of Kafr Na'ama. Army Radio reported, however, that they may have fled to Ramallah. The Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade claimed "credit" for the terrorist shooting attack.
(...)
Arbel will be buried this afternoon in the cemetery at Dolev.

Read the rest http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El3189&enZone=Security&enVersion=0&">here.
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vierundzwanzig Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Makes you see
that occupation doesn't work, does it?

A lesson our troops are learning right now, too.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No, vierundzwanzig.
It makes me wonder how stupid some will be.
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vierundzwanzig Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Too ominous of a response to me.
n/t
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I wasn't refering to you. I was refering to the terrorist.
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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. No Justice, No Peace
If you and your community were subjected to Israeli Mafia terrorism, it would respond much the same, I would say.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. So you would blow yourself up...
...to kill a few Israelis, hurt a few Palestinians? Leave behind your own children to kill another person's? Some people on this world are sick: in heart, in mind, in soul.
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. It tells me that the Peace Fence
needs to be built - taller and faster.

I hope that the murderers are found and killed soon, and that those that sent them, financed them, sheltered them, armed them or otherwise supported them in their murderous endeavor meet the same fate.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Talmon is beyond the barrier

Just above Ramallah.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. thanx for the map newyorican
Talmon, a settlement beyond the barrier.
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vierundzwanzig Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The fence will do nothing for security
and neither is it being built but for the purpose of establishing facts of a new state on the ground and land grab of particularly important areas.

I'd be very surprised if it made a difference.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It will make a difference if
It saves one Israeli or Palestinian life.

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. It would have made no difference, in this case...
the barrier is irrelevant.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Are you saying my reasoning doesn't matter?
It's unfortunate that there is no way to tally how many suicide attempts or terrorist activities have been thwarted by the Peace Fence.

It would be like me asking "when did you stop beating your wife?"

I reiterate. If it saves one Israeli or Palestinian life it is worth it. If you want to debate that concept with me, I will.

Otherwise your post makes no sense at all as an answer to mine.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No...
I said, " It would have made no difference, in this case the barrier is irrelevant."


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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Maybe yes, Maybe no
Had she gotten through, she might have blown herself off in the middle of a shopping mall and the casualty report could have been much higher. I feel sick saying she "only" killed four people.

So just maybe the barrier is not so relevant in this case too.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Did you read the article?
I think you are in the wrong thread, is one is about:

"Roi Arbel, 28, a father of five, was killed and two others were moderately wounded when terrorists opened fire Tuesday evening on an Israeli vehicle near the Jewish community of Talmon, northwest of Jerusalem, where he lived."

No malls or bombs in the article posted. Maybe you are looking for this: Bombing at Israel-Gaza border. There you can yak it up about malls and bombs *and* actually make some sense.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You're right
I'm sorry

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. The Security Barrier, Mr. Zwanzig
Will certainly operate to reduce attacks by Arab Palestinian irregulars against places that lie to the west of it. To argue otherwise is foolish: it is a competently designed and manned barrier.

Its positioning is a seperate question: it will, indeed, operate in my view over time to arrogate certain lands to Israel that do not properly belong to it. The longer it remains in place, the more certain this operation will become. It will certainly stay in place so long as the various armed Arab Palestinian bodies persist in levying war against Israel.
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vierundzwanzig Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. According to competent sources apparently not
Since the article is no longer on Haaretz here a copy: http://www.mepeace.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=663
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. That says absolutely nothing...
Lots of things could be done that would reduce attacks, like ethnic cleansing, but that doesn't mean that those things should be defended in any way....


Over time? It's doing it right now...


Violet...

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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. well it will make attacks more difficult..
until a new strategy is realized
"it is a competently designed and manned barrier"
I have to disagree
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. you mean the land stealing fence
yea, taller and faster
build a bubble over Israel too ..
you could barrow Ronnie Reagans SDI shield..
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. So you hope ISM activists are killed??
After all, you've claimed repeatedly and without a shred of evidence that the ISM are 'terrorist supporters'. Also, do you feel the same need for blood and death when it comes to the Israeli settlers who in the past ambushed the car of a Palestinian and murdered a child? Whatever happened to the novel concept of hoping that people who commit these crimes are brought to justice rather than killed? While baying for blood may make some feel a shallow sense of achievement, it's not the answer to anything...

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. One must
wonder...
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Here's the evidence:
The International Solidarity Movement supports terrorism

The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) has harbored known terrorists and openly advocated violence and the destruction of Israel. ISM spokesman Raphael Cohen was asked at a May 2003 press conference to define “occupation.” His response: “The Zionist presence in Palestine” (David Bedein. "Support unit for terror," Jerusalem Post, June 25, 2003).
When asked to express his view of peace, he answered, “a one state solution,” by which he meant the creation of a Palestinian state in place of Israel.
On ISM's web site, the Internet directory is called “traveltopalestine.” Their site also located Ben Gurion Airport in “Palestine.” It includes an information packet for volunteers that features a country guide to “Palestine.” The guide lists the landmass of “Palestine” as “26,323 km2 = 10,162 miles2” – the size of the entire State of Israel, plus the West Bank and Gaza. The country guide describes the geographic boundaries of “Palestine” as extending from Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, and from Lebanon to Aqaba; that is, again incorporating all of Israel.
The ISM does not hide its incitement to violence. Its web site states that it recognizes “the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle.” Cohen admits that, on April 25, 2003, he hosted a group of 15 people at his apartment. Included in that group were Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif, British nationals. They subsequently participated in various activities planned by the ISM. Five days later, the two carried out a suicide bombing in a popular pub next to the American Embassy in Tel Aviv that is frequented by Embassy personnel. Hanif and Sharif entered Israel under the guise of “peace activists” and “alternative tourism” – perhaps a reference to the ISM-precursor “Alternative Tourist Group” (Andrew Friedman, "The ‘Neutral’ Partisans," The Review, July 2003). ISM denies responsibility for the actions of the British bombers

More here

At Rutgers in the spring of 2003, the New Jersey Solidarity Movement hung a large banner painted in Palestinian colors in the Student Center that read "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free." This is a Hamas slogan popular both among Palestinians and within the ISM. The poetry of the Hamas slogan may come out as mere doggerel in English translation, but the Movement's intention of destroying Israel is made clear, as is -- for those who know that this is a Hamas slogan -- the implied endorsement of the Hamas program.

In a widely publicized incident that made many doubt the ISM's claims that it does not collaborate with terrorists, Susan Barclay, an ISM organizer later deported by Israel, attempted to hide Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukiya in the ISM office in Jenin while the IDF searched the building for him. An ISM spokesman claimed that Barclay had no way of knowing who the man was -- although that would hardly justify her attempt to prevent a search of the ISM offices by an officer of the law who was searching for an identified terrorist. The spokesman went on to say that he was not certain how he would behave if he were himself given the opportunity to shelter a known terrorist from the police.
Tom Wallace, 43, who has traveled from Boston to work as the ISM's spokesperson in Jenin, says the ISMers in Jenin had no idea who Sukiya was when they took him in that morning, and that they were only trying to help a man in distress. And if, in the future, someone who the ISM knows to be a terrorist shows up at the office door requesting assistance? "He's still someone who's hurt and needs help," Tom says, adding that ISM members in Jenin are now debating this very question. "Honestly, I don't know the answer." One year earlier, ISM volunteers went to great lengths to enter the Arafat compound for the purpose of acting as human shields for Arafat and for the terrorists that the ISM volunteer writing this journal entry proudly refers to as the "Ze'evi Five" in honor of the Israeli Cabinet minister whom they murdered.
Here Tamara, a 25-year-old mother from the Los Angeles area who belongs to "Los Angeles Jews for a Just Peace" and who traveled to Israel to work as an ISM volunteer, reports on a lecture from a "calm, well-spoken" Hamas representative who told the audience of International Solidarity Movement volunteers that he does not endorse suicide bombings: “We had the chance to meet with, Dr. Ghazi Hamed Hamed, a representative from Hamas. He is by far one of the most interesting and surprising people I have met here. Calm, well spoken, and very upfront. He spoke frankly, and gave us a picture of Hamas that we would never imagine in the West. He told is about the organizing they do for those in need, the construction of schools and social service organizations. They also have a women's group, "some people misunderstand us. We do not discriminate against women and there is nothing to prevent them from being leaders." He also said that although he supports the Palestinian right (as detailed in international law) to armed resistance, he does not personally support suicide bombings. However he reminded us that many people feel that is the only way they can fight against the occupation.”

More
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Fixed link #2:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. That garbage isn't evidence...
And posting the same garbage repeatedly and totally ignoring the falsehoods that are in that garbage being pointed out to you doesn't make the garbage evidence anymore than it did the first time you posted it....

You've been asked before and ignored the question, so I'll ask again and this time I'll PM you a link to this thread so you don't miss the question. Where in this nonsense that you've posted a link to does it give evidence that the ISM are terrorist-supporters? Please point out the specific parts of yr little linky that provides evidence of this, because though this may come as a shock to the system, some piece of internet opinion unsupported by fact titled 'The ISM supports terrorism' is NOT evidence. Do you understand that there's a difference between an opinion and evidence?

Violet..
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. LOL
and then we're supposed to take such "evidence" as credible, a personal site of someone that demonizes any peace movements that opppose Sharon and his criminal policies... :crazy:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Recycling...
This is the seventh time this 'evidence' has been trotted out by Mr. Locke. You've called him on it repeatedly. Maybe this time you'll get a reply. Just don't hold your breathe.


5 Palestinians killed; 2 would-be suicide bombers arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=39799#41373

Order: Build fence immediately (Ma'ariv)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=41699#41793

Birthright Israel concerned ISM activists are exploiting trips
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=40647#42370

Activist's memory kept alive
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=43196

Parents of woman killed by Israeli bulldozer call for peace in Middle East
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=37775#40250

Israeli Army Shooting of Israeli Stirs Hot Debate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=42635
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Thanks for the links...
I was going to go find them, but now I don't need to. If Mr. Locke would like to actually address any of the points raised in response to his repeated posting of this same 'evidence', he can do so in any of those many threads where he hasn't returned to discuss the lack of credibility of the 'evidence' he's posting a link to...

Violet...
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Here's your reply.
Edited on Sat Jan-17-04 02:57 PM by JohnLocke
First Link’s “Refutation”:
Nothing, except a minor point. (The site said the area given as Palestine included Israel as well as the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Someone replied that that sentence was followed by the size of the Palestinian territories.)
Second’s Link’s “Refutation”:
Nothing. (But Resistance helpfully commented “Someone took alot of time trying to justify murdering peace activists).
Third Link’s “Refutation”:
Nothing. (But Saudade said that we repeat “terror-supporters” enough it will come true. Excellent rebuttal.)
Fourth Link’s “Refutation”:
Nothing. (But Violet did say that I “keep on ignoring posts in other threads.”)
Fifth Link’s “Refutation”:
Almost nothing. Bluesoul helpfully called the article “RW” (right-wing) as if simply labeling something conservative one can avoid addressing it. Violet, to her credit, contested the claim that Rachel Corrie protected a house used for arms smuggling. However, No link was provided, and even if the claim were false (and it might be), there is still no refutation of any other fact.
Sixth Link’s “Refutation”:
Nothing. Bluesoul commented that there is “nothing to rebut” and that “the source is laughable.”
(Violet again claims I ignored her “point-by-point rebuttal” in another thread).
-----------------------------
So what? That point Scurrilous seems to be making is that I keep posting this. Yes, I do - and I'll continue to post it uintil I get that "point-by-point rebuttal" I was promised.
-----------------------------
In a private message to me, Violet says this:

“And posting the same garbage repeatedly and totally ignoring the falsehoods that are in that garbage being pointed out to you doesn't make the garbage evidence anymore than it did the first time you posted it....
“You've been asked before and ignored the question, so I'll ask again and this time I'll PM you a link to this thread so you don't miss the question. Where in this nonsense that you've posted a link to does it give evidence that the ISM are terrorist-supporters? Please point out the specific parts of yr little linky that provides evidence of this, because though this may come as a shock to the system, some piece of internet opinion unsupported by fact titled 'The ISM supports terrorism' is NOT evidence. Do you understand that there's a difference between an opinion and evidence?”
--------------------------------------------------
So Violet – where’s the point-by-point rebuttal? We’d all love to hear it.



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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. your right, its a smear campaign against ISM
"That garbage isn't evidence..."
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. This is junk...
There is no evidence that the ISM knew that the terrorists they were harboring actually were terrorists. Supporting a one-state solution is not terrorism, nor is it terrorism to call israel Palestine.

Recognition of the legitimate right of the Palestinians to resist the Israeli occupation is not terrorism.

The second link doesn't work. What you copied is proof of nothing.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Darranar: My Rebuttal
Edited on Sat Jan-17-04 05:14 PM by JohnLocke
First: I fixed my second link in a subsequent post.

Second: You say that "there is no evidence that the ISM knew that the terrorists they were harboring actually were terrorists."

Even if the ISM spokesman's claim that they did not know that they were not harboring terrorists is true, that still does not excuse them for not promptly turning the man over to police or military officials.

Even if the ISM believed the circumstances surrounding the man's arrest were unjust, they could, like ACTUAL human rights groups such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, chose to investigate and publicize the arrest though normal means - not inhibiting officers of the law from performing their jobs.

Even if you believe that the ISM was genuinely concerned about who they thought was a "refugee," there is ample evidence that they would have harbored a terrorist as well. As the article said, "The spokesman went on to say that he was not certain how he would behave if he were himself given the opportunity to shelter a known terrorist from the police." In addition, ISM "activist" Tom Wallace has implied that if someone who the ISM knows to be a terrorist shows up, "He's still someone who's hurt and needs help."
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. So basically
no proof whatsoever that ISM supports terrorism. As i thought...
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Care to actually discuss the issue?
Come on, debate me! :bounce: :bounce:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. We're all waiting for you to start...
Edited on Sat Jan-17-04 05:28 PM by Violet_Crumble
Responses like 'that's nothing' as you put up in the response to me isn't a rebuttal. For it to even start being a rebuttal, you have to explain why you think it's nothing, something you fail to do. You've been asked many times now to point out specific instances of the ISM supporting terrorism in that unsubstantiated propaganda that you repeatedly post, and you've failed to do so. Falsehoods in that rubbish you keep on posting was pointed out to you and you also fobbed that off. So, yet again, where is the specific evidence in that link that the ISM supports terrorism? Saying that someone should dob in another person even if they don't know they're a terrorist ISN'T evidence that they support terrorism, and that should be clear to anyone with an honest interest in discussing the issue. Also, it's a bit amusing to have seen posts in a thread on an article by Gideon Levy making wild accusations that there was no proof of what he was saying in the article, yet here we are with a vanity page on the internet being touted as *The Truth*...

Violet...
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Well...
First: I fixed my second link in a subsequent post.

Not on this thread...

Even if the ISM spokesman's claim that they did not know that they were not harboring terrorists is true, that still does not excuse them for not promptly turning the man over to police or military officials.

We should give the ISM the benefit of the doubt in this matter, until there is proof to the contrary. Assuming that they did not know he was a terrorist until the IDF arrested him, why should they have turned him over?

Even if the ISM believed the circumstances surrounding the man's arrest were unjust, they could, like actual human rights groups such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, chose to investigate and publicize the arrest though normal means - not inhibiting officers of the law from performing their jobs.

That they did not does not mean that they support terrorism.

Even if you believe that the ISM was genuinely concerned about who they thought was a "refugee," there is ample evidence that they would have harbored a terrorist as well. As the article said, "The spokesman went on to say that he was not certain how he would behave if he were himself given the opportunity to shelter a known terrorist from the police." In addition, ISM "activist" Tom Wallace has implied that if someone who the ISM knows to be a terrorist shows up, "He's still someone who's hurt and needs help."

Expressing doubt about whether they would hand over militants to what they view as a greater evil is not supporting terrorism.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I did fix the link.
Well, to start, I did fix the link on this thread (see post #22)

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Sorry, missed that...
Edited on Sat Jan-17-04 08:55 PM by Darranar
As for article #2, I found a few things interesting:

In radical-left speak, resistance is a code word for terrorism. Read how the leader of Hamas uses the term:

An Arabic satellite TV channel financed by the Qatari government broadcast a live talk show called "Open Dialogue" earlier today, featuring the Pediatrician of Death, Dr. Abd-al-Aziz al-Rantisi, and the Palestinian Authority's Information Minister, Nabil Amr-who once again made it clear that they do not consider the wholesale murder of Jews to be terrorism. At 19:15 GMT, PA Information Minister Nabil Amr joins the discussion via satellite from Ramallah. Asked about Mahmud Abbas' speech in the Al-Aqabah summit, Amr says: "As regards the word terrorism, I do not know why when the Palestinians denounce the word terrorism, certain people think that this means resistance. There is no text anywhere that says that the Palestinian people's resistance is terrorism, which we denounce. President Yasir Arafat said this in Geneva 15 years ago. This is part of our policy. Yes, we denounce terrorism. Anyone who says that denouncing terrorism means denouncing resistance is doing an injustice to legitimate resistance and is in effect labeling it with terrorism. Therefore, the statement that was read in Al-Aqabah is based on a commitment that the PLO made in Geneva, after which the Palestinian-US dialogue started in Tunis."


How the leader of Hamas is a radical leftist is beyond me.

In the Through-the-Looking-Glass rhetoric of Hamas and of the ISM, terrorism is what the American Army does in Afghanistan and Iraq, while resistance is what Hamas does when it straps a suicide bomb to a seventeen-year-old girl and points her toward an Israeli bus.

The ISM, of course, thinks and believes the same things as Hamas. They are both vile radical leftists.

In an interview with the New York Post , Charlotte Kates leader of New Jersey Solidarity and organizer of the National Conference scheduled for Rutgers on October 10-12, told the interviewer that "peaceful resistance is the fest's guiding principle." Yet she noted that she, as well as the sponsoring organization, the New Jersey Solidarity Movement -- an offshoot of International Solidarity -- supports Palestinian homicide bombers. "Palestinian resistance in all its forms has been a very powerful tool of justice," said Kates, 23, a Rutgers law student. "All forms, from armed struggle to mass protest." And does Israel have a right to exist? Kates's answer, "Israel is an apartheid, colonial settler state. I do not believe apartheid, colonial settler states have a right to exist."

Where does she say that she supports suicide bombers? How do the statements of one member of one offshoot of the organization prove anything? Especially when one considers this, later in the article:

For example, when Charlotte Kates, leader of New Jersey Solidarity, gave numerous interviews to the press in the summer of 2003 in which she endorsed suicide bombing, other movement leaders claimed that she was not part of the ISM, and she herself claimed to have left the ISM and joined al Awda instead.

Earlier in the article:

The decision to quit the International Solidarity Movement in favor of Al Awda was taken by New Jersey Solidarity leaders Charlotte Kates and Summer Sharaf, either because they held more radical views than other ISM members or because they wanted to express their views more frankly.

And:

To illustrate how complex and fluid the organization of the Solidarity Movement is, in July of 2003 New Jersey Solidarity broke with the International Solidarity Movement.

There are numerous parts of the article that consist of the usual attacks on the Left: "anti-american", "anti-semitic", etc. The article attacks them because they acknowledge that the US is inciting terrorism and extremism through its devestating foreign policy. It exxagerates certain ISM statements and declares that they mean the most extreme thing they could possibly mean, while not giving any evidence to support this. The article is a propaganda piece and nothing more.

Please respond to post #39 beyond simply pointing out that you fized the link.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Response to #39
Edited on Sat Jan-17-04 09:53 PM by JohnLocke
Even if the ISM spokesman's claim that they did not know that they were not harboring terrorists is true, that still does not excuse them for not promptly turning the man over to police or military officials.
We should give the ISM the benefit of the doubt in this matter, until there is proof to the contrary. Assuming that they did not know he was a terrorist until the IDF arrested him, why should they have turned him over?
Does this mean that until anyone is absolutely sure a person they are harboring has violated the law, we should refuse to give them up? Perhaps it was hyperbolic of me to say that this incident means they support terror; rather, I meant this specific example to be representative of the ISM's utter contempt of the law.

------------------

Even if the ISM believed the circumstances surrounding the man's arrest were unjust, they could, like actual human rights groups such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, chose to investigate and publicize the arrest though normal means - not inhibiting officers of the law from performing their jobs.
That they did not does not mean that they support terrorism.
------------------
You're right; it doesn't. This just shows that they're arrogant extremist bastards. However, they are plenty of other facts in those articles and others which show that the ISM both holds many ideological beliefs similar to Hamas and others and also has publicly endorsed terrorism.

------------------

Even if you believe that the ISM was genuinely concerned about who they thought was a "refugee," there is ample evidence that they would have harbored a terrorist as well. As the article said, "The spokesman went on to say that he was not certain how he would behave if he were himself given the opportunity to shelter a known terrorist from the police." In addition, ISM "activist" Tom Wallace has implied that if someone who the ISM knows to be a terrorist shows up, "He's still someone who's hurt and needs help."
Expressing doubt about whether they would hand over militants to what they view as a greater evil is not supporting terrorism.
------------------
Yes, it does. Their belief that Israel is a greater evil than Hamas (though moronic) does not make them support terror; their actions (refusing to turn a terrorist over) do.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Uh...
Does this mean that until anyone is absolutely sure a person they are harboring has violated the law, we should refuse to give them up? Perhaps it was hyperbolic of me to say that this incident means they support terror; rather, I meant this specific example to be representative of the ISM's utter contempt of the law.

No, but that the ISM does not immediately assume that every person seeking refuge is a terrorist does not mean that they support terrorism. That they refuse to comply with the wishes of the oppressors does not mean that they are contemptous of the law.

You're right; it doesn't. This just shows that they're arrogant extremist bastards. However, they are plenty of other facts in those articles and others which show that the ISM both holds many ideological beliefs similar to Hamas and others and also has publicly endorsed terrorism.

I haven't seen those facts... care to show them? Also, how does this make them "arrogant extremist bastards"?

Yes, it does. Their belief that Israel is a greater evil than Hamas (though moronic) does not make them support terror; their actions (refusing to turn a terrorist over) do.

When has the ISM refused to turn over a terrorist that they knew was a terrorist?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Kick...
I don't think Mr. Locke revisits threads from the day before so I PMd him a link to yr post as I'd like to see some facts backing up his claims as well :)

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Response
I haven't seen those facts ...care to show them?

I suggest you read this article: http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9564

(...)

Nominally, at least, ISM was co-founded in December 2000 by former Brooklyn radical Adam Shapiro, his Arab Palestinian-American wife Huwaida Arraf; <1> and Ghassan Andoni and George Rishmawi, the Palestinian Center for Rapprochements respective executive director and coordinator. Andoni, a Bir Zeit University physics instructor, also heads Beit Sahur-based Alternative Tourism, which made arrangements for two British perpetrators of an April 30 suicide bombing, the 89th in the Oslo Wars 33 months. Arafats Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades and Hamas jointly claimed responsibility for the blast that killed two musicians and a waitress and gravely wounded 16 at Tel Avivs packed Mikes Place music bar. <2>

True peace activists would sympathize with such Israeli victims. Not ISM. Rather, the group openly trumpets its activities via official Palestinian Authority websites. It links to PA mouthpiece Palestine Chronicle, where Shapiro and Arraf on January 29, 2002 claimed a Palestinian right to resist with arms and advocated against using nonviolence alone or the methods of Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr.

For the record, Palestine Chronicle pipes in news from radical outlets like Qatars Islam Online, atop whose governing committee of major scholars sits Muslim Brotherhood leader Shaikh Yusuf Al Qaradawa, who in a September 1999 al-Istiqlal (Palestine Times) interview blessed martyrdom operations that transform each Muslim fighter into a human bomb that casts terror in the hearts of the enemy. He repeated his call for such operations in June. Islam Onlines Fatwa Bank includes radical religious rulings, intolerance and hatred for non-Muslims and non-Muslim customs and incites violence and Islamic world domination.

(...)

On February 3, 2003, ISM coordinator Rebecca Murray appeared at a day-long protest against the impending Iraq war at New Yorks St. Marks Poetry Project (...) As others distributed Al Awda fliers seeking a Palestinian right of return to overwhelm Israel and boasted of coups elsewhere in the literary world, Murray praised Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade terrorist Ziad Dias, and portrayed Israelis as evil oppressors. Seven months after United Nations investigators concluded otherwise, she baselessly claimed that Israel had committed massacres in Jenin and elsewhere. Murray had herself witnessed none of these alleged atrocities. But she liberally parroted hearsay as fact in a vicious tone that undoubtedly convinced many unsuspecting dupes. <4> In August 2002, Dias was assassinated in Tulkarm. What Murray didnt report: he had planned suicide bombings with Tulkarm Fatah officers among other things. ISM claimed his death was a war crime. <5>

(...)

On March 27, coordinator Susan Barcley compromised her peace activism by refusing to open ISMs Jenin office to an Israel Defense Force search. Inside, the IDF found Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukia. <10> Israel deported Barcley for her connections to Hamas and Islamic Jihad in April. <11>
At such a juncture, a peaceful group would presumably revise its strategy. But on April 11, ISM activist Tom Hurndall was shot in the head in Rafah, near the smuggling tunnels that Corrie had died trying to protect. He was dressed in military fatigues, and firing at IDF personnel.
In short, ISM supports the terrorist infrastructure and engages in military action.
ISM plays campus rallies, tooand not with peaceful types. A well-funded annual Palestinian Solidarity Movement National Student Conference in February 2002 allied closely with the Islamist Muslim Student Association. The MSA co-sponsored the University of California at Berkeley event, at which it spearheaded a call to divest investments in Israel. Three months later, 60 Solidarity Movement students attended MSAs Washington, D.C., annual conference to advance divestment strategies. Like several other Islamist groups, MSA featured Corrie on its web page after her death.
Strangely, Solidarity Movement held its second National Student Conference nine months later in Ann Arbor, Michigan in October. It featured Sami Al-Arian, since imprisoned for financing Palestinian Islamic Jihad suicide bombings at the University of South Florida. The Muslim Student Association, a key organizer, was evidently in a hurry to find new student recruits. Indeed, the FBI is investigating MSA donations at the University of Idaho and Washington State University for links to terrorism.

(...)

Like ISM, the Islamic Association for Palestinewhich ISMs parent group lists as a religious organizationparades as a social action group, a "not-for-profit, public awareness, educational, political, social, and civic, national grassroots organization dedicated to advancing a just, comprehensive, and eternal solution to the cause of Palestine and suffrages of the Palestinians." But the IAP in 1994 spun off the Council on American Islamic Relations, which joined with the Muslim Public Affairs Council, American Muslim Alliance, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America and the Muslim American Society, among others, in sending representatives to the Jerusalem Conference. <12> Not surprisingly, ISMs Rapprochement parent also links to CAIR, which it likewise deceptively describes as religious.
Concurrent to its peace activities, ISM runs campaigns to release Marwan Barghoutiaccused of masterminding several dozen terrorist attacks that ended the lives of equally many Israeli civilians and raise funds for questionable charities such as Palestine Childrens Welfare Fund and Palestine Childrens Relief Fund. (PCRF founder Stephen Sosebee, according to Joe Kaufman, espouses the lunatic theories of the Zayed International Centre for Coordination and Follow-up, Holocaust deniers David Irving and Roger Garaudy and Saudi professor Umayma Jalahma, who last year claimed Jews use non-Jewish blood to prepare their Purim pastries.)
ISMs parent, Andonis Rapprochement Center, lists among political parties the Hamas and Hizb-ut-Tahrir terrorist groups. The latter, founded in Jordan, now sponsors much of the terrorism in Central Asia.
Rapprochement likewise considers Ali AbunimahAmerican-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee acolyte, Electronic Intifada founder and Al Awda devoteea legitimate source of news. It links to a rabid conspiracy site purporting to prove that Israel purposefully bombed the USS Liberty during the Six Day War, despite recent disclosuresand U.S. documentsproving the attack a grievous accident of war. Rapprochement links to several many other groups coyly claiming to support peace and justice that in fact seek only to delegitimize Israel.
New Jersey residents, Rutgers alumni and others urge the university and state officials to suspend current plans to facilitate and fund the October hate-fest, noting ISMs open espousal of genocide. Peaceful resistance principles, insists Rutgers Law student and organizer Charlotte Kates, include supporting Palestinian suicide bombers. Resistance in all its forms constitutes a powerful tool of justice. Israelis deserve death, Kates says, since they live in an apartheid colonial settler state. I do not believe apartheid, colonial settler states have a right to exist. In July, Rutgers President Richard L. McCormick refused to pull the conference plug and New Jersey Gov. Jim McGreevey backed him. New Jersey had to protect free speech, they contended.

(...)
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I read it...
There was very little to indicate that the ISM supports terrorism.

It also got some facts wrong.

True peace activists would sympathize with such Israeli victims. Not ISM. Rather, the group openly trumpets its activities via official Palestinian Authority websites. It links to PA mouthpiece Palestine Chronicle, where Shapiro and Arraf on January 29, 2002 claimed a Palestinian right to resist with arms and advocated against using nonviolence alone or the methods of Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr.

For the record, Palestine Chronicle pipes in news from radical outlets like Qatars Islam Online, atop whose governing committee of major scholars sits Muslim Brotherhood leader Shaikh Yusuf Al Qaradawa, who in a September 1999 al-Istiqlal (Palestine Times) interview blessed martyrdom operations that transform each Muslim fighter into a human bomb that casts terror in the hearts of the enemy. He repeated his call for such operations in June. Islam Onlines Fatwa Bank includes radical religious rulings, intolerance and hatred for non-Muslims and non-Muslim customs and incites violence and Islamic world domination.


So Palestine Chronicle is biased, and because ISM links to it it therefore supports terrorism?

On February 3, 2003, ISM coordinator Rebecca Murray appeared at a day-long protest against the impending Iraq war at New Yorks St. Marks Poetry Project (...) As others distributed Al Awda fliers seeking a Palestinian right of return to overwhelm Israel and boasted of coups elsewhere in the literary world, Murray praised Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade terrorist Ziad Dias, and portrayed Israelis as evil oppressors. Seven months after United Nations investigators concluded otherwise, she baselessly claimed that Israel had committed massacres in Jenin and elsewhere. Murray had herself witnessed none of these alleged atrocities. But she liberally parroted hearsay as fact in a vicious tone that undoubtedly convinced many unsuspecting dupes. <4> In August 2002, Dias was assassinated in Tulkarm. What Murray didnt report: he had planned suicide bombings with Tulkarm Fatah officers among other things. ISM claimed his death was a war crime. <5>

This, at least, may have some basis. However, I googled it, and the only other source for Murray praising Dias I found was written by the author of this article (it can be found here).

Still, one statement made by one member of the organization proves little, if this is true.

On March 27, coordinator Susan Barcley compromised her peace activism by refusing to open ISMs Jenin office to an Israel Defense Force search. Inside, the IDF found Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukia. <10> Israel deported Barcley for her connections to Hamas and Islamic Jihad in April. <11>
At such a juncture, a peaceful group would presumably revise its strategy. But on April 11, ISM activist Tom Hurndall was shot in the head in Rafah, near the smuggling tunnels that Corrie had died trying to protect. He was dressed in military fatigues, and firing at IDF personnel.
In short, ISM supports the terrorist infrastructure and engages in military action.
ISM plays campus rallies, tooand not with peaceful types. A well-funded annual Palestinian Solidarity Movement National Student Conference in February 2002 allied closely with the Islamist Muslim Student Association. The MSA co-sponsored the University of California at Berkeley event, at which it spearheaded a call to divest investments in Israel. Three months later, 60 Solidarity Movement students attended MSAs Washington, D.C., annual conference to advance divestment strategies. Like several other Islamist groups, MSA featured Corrie on its web page after her death.
Strangely, Solidarity Movement held its second National Student Conference nine months later in Ann Arbor, Michigan in October. It featured Sami Al-Arian, since imprisoned for financing Palestinian Islamic Jihad suicide bombings at the University of South Florida. The Muslim Student Association, a key organizer, was evidently in a hurry to find new student recruits. Indeed, the FBI is investigating MSA donations at the University of Idaho and Washington State University for links to terrorism.


We have already discussed the first event.

Tom Hurndall was not firing on IDF personnel. No source to support this is cited.

The article gives no evidence that the ISM knew of Al-Arian's practices at the time.

Like ISM, the Islamic Association for Palestinewhich ISMs parent group lists as a religious organizationparades as a social action group, a "not-for-profit, public awareness, educational, political, social, and civic, national grassroots organization dedicated to advancing a just, comprehensive, and eternal solution to the cause of Palestine and suffrages of the Palestinians." But the IAP in 1994 spun off the Council on American Islamic Relations, which joined with the Muslim Public Affairs Council, American Muslim Alliance, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America and the Muslim American Society, among others, in sending representatives to the Jerusalem Conference. <12> Not surprisingly, ISMs Rapprochement parent also links to CAIR, which it likewise deceptively describes as religious.
Concurrent to its peace activities, ISM runs campaigns to release Marwan Barghoutiaccused of masterminding several dozen terrorist attacks that ended the lives of equally many Israeli civilians and raise funds for questionable charities such as Palestine Childrens Welfare Fund and Palestine Childrens Relief Fund. (PCRF founder Stephen Sosebee, according to Joe Kaufman, espouses the lunatic theories of the Zayed International Centre for Coordination and Follow-up, Holocaust deniers David Irving and Roger Garaudy and Saudi professor Umayma Jalahma, who last year claimed Jews use non-Jewish blood to prepare their Purim pastries.)
ISMs parent, Andonis Rapprochement Center, lists among political parties the Hamas and Hizb-ut-Tahrir terrorist groups. The latter, founded in Jordan, now sponsors much of the terrorism in Central Asia.
Rapprochement likewise considers Ali AbunimahAmerican-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee acolyte, Electronic Intifada founder and Al Awda devoteea legitimate source of news. It links to a rabid conspiracy site purporting to prove that Israel purposefully bombed the USS Liberty during the Six Day War, despite recent disclosuresand U.S. documentsproving the attack a grievous accident of war. Rapprochement links to several many other groups coyly claiming to support peace and justice that in fact seek only to delegitimize Israel.
New Jersey residents, Rutgers alumni and others urge the university and state officials to suspend current plans to facilitate and fund the October hate-fest, noting ISMs open espousal of genocide. Peaceful resistance principles, insists Rutgers Law student and organizer Charlotte Kates, include supporting Palestinian suicide bombers. Resistance in all its forms constitutes a powerful tool of justice. Israelis deserve death, Kates says, since they live in an apartheid colonial settler state. I do not believe apartheid, colonial settler states have a right to exist. In July, Rutgers President Richard L. McCormick refused to pull the conference plug and New Jersey Gov. Jim McGreevey backed him. New Jersey had to protect free speech, they contended.


Barghouti is believed by many to be innocent. Support for his freedom is not necessarily support for terrorism.

Charlotte Kays is no longer part of the ISM. See post # 43 (and please reply to it.)
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. Originally
It was not called an occupation, but a "separation" into two states. The Palestinians rejected the idea. After the attack on Israel in 1967, there was an opening of th eland previously controlled by Jordan to Israelis. Where is the second state that you call occupied? It never existed.

what is not working is the Intifada, and the violence it forces on Israel. Yes, they can have a state of Palestine, but a violent state of Palestine will only be a walled ghetto.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
33. Tragically
This young man, not yet 30 years old was gunned down for no other reason than that he was a Jew.

It makes one want to weep that the world will continue to support this kind of terrorism.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Being a colonist might have something to do with it...
Talmon, his home colony-settlement, is beyond any proposed wall. It's only providence that kept his foolish actions from getting his whole family killed. Here's a clue, if you want to colonize a hostile environment, don't bring the wife and kids.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
50. Is that all?
By that logic 3/4 of the world would be dead.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. It seemed to be enough...
:shrug:
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