Palestinian workers brutalised by Israel

[Scurrilous]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7EBEB0AA-E839-47EF-8444-E80C6EF55B58.htm

<snip>

"Six Israeli security personnel attacked a Palestinian worker returning home from his work across the border to Qalqilya in the northern West Bank.
Subhi Firas Zimmari, 18, told Aljazeera.net he had just past the village of Kufl Haris when a border police jeep pulled over.

"Four soldiers and two masked collaborators disembarked and beat me savagely, using hard objects, until I lost consciousness."

The Israeli Shin Beth - Israel's domestic intelligence Agency - then took Zimmari to the Russian compound lockup in Jerusalem for interrogation. He was cleared of any wrongdoing and declared innocent."

<snip>

"His story is not unique. According to Rafiq Natshe, a former Labour minister and now Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, brutalisation of Palestinian labourers by Israeli police and soldiers is a “routine and daily affair”.
"We know the Israelis commit daily crimes against our workers. Some of these crimes find their way to the media, but thousands of other cases are unreported.”

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Two comments

One, I would believe al jazeera about anything. Two, if Palestinians don't like their treatment is Israel, then I support their decision to not seek work in the state.

[bluesoul]

2. So if you treat somebody horribly

they should just move out. I find such logic incredible. So the Jews that were treated in Nazi Germany like trash should have simply moved out and not complained about the treatment? Oh my...

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. No moving required

Palestinian workers who seek to cross the border into Israel for work bring with them a host of security concerns. Many of their complaints highlight their resentment of such treatment when they have no inherent right to employment in the state of Israel.

I am not suggesting anyone move anywhere. I am pointing out that if Palestinians wish to avoid working in Israel and would prefer to stay in the West Bank or Gaza, that I wildly support such a choice.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. So it's okay to beat Palestinian workers?

After all, it's all done in the name of 'security' so it must be A-okay?

Here's some reality for you. No matter who or what the worker is, they are entitled to the same treatment as every other worker in Israel. Claiming that if they don't like being beaten, then they can choose not to work in Israel is as bad as saying that if women don't like sexual harrassment in the workplace, they can choose not to be in the workplace...

I find yr last comment pretty offensive, as I do when anyone makes comments singling out one group of people and voicing the opinion that they'd be much happier if they weren't employed amongst others. It's the same rubbish that's pulled out when it comes to asylum seekers over here and it all boils down to a 'Waaah! They're taking jobs meant for (insert positive fuzzysounding name for group seen as superior to the jobseekers)..

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Never said it

I said I doubt the report since it does come from the Israel-hating network al Jazeera.

No workers should be beaten. But, as an aside, no Palestinian workers should be in Israel anyhow.

I merely support any Palestinians who come to the same conclusion I have, that they don't belong is Israel until there is peace.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I never said you did...

That's why I asked you a question, because yr words in the post I replied to seemed to be going along that line, specifically this part of the post: "Palestinian workers who seek to cross the border into Israel for work bring with them a host of security concerns. Many of their complaints highlight their resentment of such treatment when they have no inherent right to employment in the state of Israel."

No workers should be beaten. But, as an aside, no Palestinian workers should be in Israel anyhow.

Did you read the article?? This worker is employed in Israel and was returning home from his job. Obviously the GOI disagrees with yr little aside, and there'd be a very good reason for that. To single out a group of people and take the stance that that group shouldn't be allowed entry into another country is incredibly offensive, amongst other things which I won't go into here. Face facts. People living in neigbouring areas in most places in the world do find work in other countries. If someone were to tell me that no Indonesian or Malaysian should be allowed here and most definately shouldn't be allowed to work here, I'd find that stance pretty horrific. No worker should be beaten. No buts about it...

I merely support any Palestinians who come to the same conclusion I have, that they don't belong is Israel until there is peace.

I've just come from another thread where you've said there'll never be peace, so does that mean you don't think Palestinians should ever be allowed to enter Israel to work? Also, do you believe that until there's peace, no Israeli belongs in the Occupied Territories?

I said I doubt the report since it does come from the Israel-hating network al Jazeera.

How about instead of attacking the source with a 'I don't believe anything (insert name of source here) says!!!' and acting as though media sources who are critical of Israel are 'Israel-haters', you give some solid explanation as to why you believe this worker is lying, and all others interviewed in the article and references to other news sources carrying stories about similar incidents are also lying? Are you trying to claim these sorts of incidents don't happen??

Violet...

[brainshrub]

4. Right on!

Serves 'em right for wanting to eat! It's not like they aren't rounded up into ghettos every night... oh never mind.

[bluesoul]

5. Brainshrub

every day I am more amazed at some comments here. But my hope is not gone. There is still much light in all the dark...

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. They can work or eat all they want

They just have no right to work in Israel. Like you and I, they are not citizens and, as such, must be invited or at least accepted into the state.

[KissMyAsscroft]

7. "They can work or eat all they want"

You obviously know the Palestinian situatiuon very well:eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. They should talk to Arafat

Maybe he'd release some of his bank accounts and actually feed his people.

Either way, they are not Israeli citizens as so many here are quick to point out.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. 'So many here'??

Sorry, I must have missed all that. Care to point out where anyone has claimed that Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are Israeli citizens??

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. If that wasn't clear

And I agree you could read it either way, my point was people on both sides of this issue don't count Palestinians as Israeli citizens. As such, they have no particular right to be in Israel, visit Israel or work in Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Yep...

I reread it and yr right that it could have been read either way, so thanks for clearing that one up...

What I don't understand is why you say Palestinian workers with jobs in Israel have no right to be there. Of course they do, and if they didn't have that right, they wouldn't be allowed into Israel and employers wouldn't be allowed to employ them...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. Not what I'm saying

I'm saying that Palestinians have no inherent right to jobs or travel or stepping one foot in Israel. It is up to Israel to let them in or not. And it is up to Israel to set conditions on the entrance as well.

Personally, I think the border should be shut until such time as the terror groups have been stopped by the Palestinians.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Inherent???

Muddle, states aren't natural things, so why on earth are you trying to say that any state has a natural right to single out just one group of people and deny them rights to travel to, or work in another country? Does this mean that you wouldn't have a single complaint about any other state placing restrictions on one group of people? I'll give you an example. Let me know whether you think there was an 'inherent right' to do this, okay?

You may have heard of the White Australia Policy. It was the first piece of legislation passed after Federation and was only repealed in the 1960's after a growing fear that attention may turn its way from a UN that was increasingly critical of South Africa's racist laws. The White Australia Policy was exactly what it's name suggested - an immigration policy that didn't accept anyone if (prior to WWII) if they weren't British and white, and (after WWII) also accepted immigrants from Northern Europe, but none of those swarthy-looking Italians from further south, or any Displaced Persons if they didn't look white enough. And before you trot out any of the 'security' excuses to try to make out that Israel would have an inherent right to deny a specific group of people entry, I'll give you a bit of a heads-up. For every 'security' excuse you can trot out, I can give you ten 'security' excuses that supporters of the policy thought were just as valid as any excuses used today. Security doesn't excuse racism, and racism is what it is when an entire group of people are denied entry or work in any country while others are allowed...

I'm sure I addressed what you personally think in an earlier post, and I'm pretty sure I made it clear why I find advocating singling out one specific group of people is rather repulsive, no matter where it happens or who does it, or what excuses they use....

Why are you insisting that the Palestinian people must put a stop to terrorism on their own? Shouldn't Israel try to give some genuine assistance? That's assuming that when you refer to terrorism, yr referring to attacks on civilians and not legitimate attacks on military targets...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. States exist at the will of those they govern

One of the first rules is to continue existence. Another is to protect their OWN citizens. As we refer to it here, "provide for the common defense."

If enough of a single group of non-citizens are deemed a threat, then a nation as not only a right, but an obligation to do something about that by barring their entry.

Sure, these examples are quite the same -- NOT. I don't see any examples of the daily terror attacks on Australia that mandated the whiteonly policy you dictate.

That was racism. But Australia also didn't have an ongoing terror war AND real war where all of its neighbors claimed the land it was on.

No. Australia is unique in that its founders murdered almost all of the natives and, as an island continent, it has clear and protected borders.

In short, there is no comparison.

If the Palestinian people decide to truly go after terror, it is my genuine hope that not only Israel, but the U.S., UN, EU and others would help all they could.

Right now, NONE of the Palestinian terror groups has earned the title of legitimate resistance movements. They all bounce across the spectrum. Until they change their actions, all must be eliminated.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. And there's nothing inherent about states...

There's nothing too difficult to understand about that...

There are NO daily terrorist attacks in Israel. And I suggest that you either read up on Australia's past security issues or listen to someone who has studied on it, especially when it comes to foreign policy. There's many similarities that those who do know what they're talking about recognise...

Advocating policies of denying entry to a specific group of people in their entirety is racist, regardless of whether there's excuses of 'security'. That's why the White Australia Policy was racist and also why any policy that would deny entry of any group in their entirety to any country. What you need to argue is why it's acceptable to have a racist policy when it concerns matters of security...

Attacks on military targets aren't terrorism. That's what we were talking about, not whether or not groups are termed resistance groups or not...

Violet...

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JasonDeter]

8. Israel... is responsible

“Israel... is responsible for the welfare and well-being of the people under her occupation. How can they control every aspect of our life, and then claim they are not responsible for providing employment for our workers"

Dr Hanna Isa,
the PA legal adviser


When the Palestinian people get tired of their supposed leaders making them the perennial victim maybe things like this (though I don't believe it) won't happen. Look at the Iraq occupation as an example. The Iraqi's are starting to tell the American military who and where the insurgents are that are killing our Soldiers and their people and the war is starting to turn for the better for the Iraqi's. Why can't the Palestinians do the same? If you believe the Israeli's the terrorist attacks on Israel are the only thing stopping the initial progress towards some solution for the Palestinians, and yet instead of turning the terrorists into the Israeli police and soldiers they play the perinnial victim. Until that stops and the Palestinians help round up the terrorists and they are locked up and the key thrown away this problem will continue until a huge regional war breaks out.

[KissMyAsscroft]

15. Ummm...obviously you haven't been paying attention in Iraq...

People are turning in terrorists but the occupation creats ten more in it's place.

Same principle at work....

[JasonDeter]

16. Potato Potatoe, I would argue the reverse.

When decent people stand up for life this kind of behavior will quickly fail.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. So the Palestinian people aren't 'decent people'?

Glad we got that one sorted out, not to mention the fact that 'standing up for life' appears to translate as only applying to Israeli lives...

Violet...

[Resistance]

24. not surprising