Why progressives can support Israel

[Herschel]

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Israel is the only country in the Middle East with a solid foundation of liberal institutions. Israel has a free press. Unlike all of its authoritarian neighbors, there is spirited political debate in Israel that comes from a long tradition of free and open discourse on serious issues. Even the most sensitive debates, like the building (and tearing down) of the settlements in the West Bank, get serious airing during times of crisis, and issues of security (the fence), have vigorous debates and oppositions. Israel also has relatively free markets. It is one of the most advanced economies in the world, with an advanced technology sector.

Unlike its neighbors, Israel is also a democracy. In fact, it is more of a democracy than the United States. Israeli governing parties must assemble coalitions on every issue because the electoral system allows for all political parties to have representation if they achieve even minimum support at the polls.

Finally, Israel has an impeccable record on women’s rights. In fact, Israel grants women equal rights under the law.

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http://maroon.uchicago.edu/viewpoints/articles/2004/02/13/why_progressives_can.php

I invite my fellow progressives to consider this.

[_Jumper_]

1. It is certainly much more progessive than its neighbors

However, how does it fare with respect to equal rights for all its citizens? I have heard that it legally enshrines equality but that there is widespread discrimination in housing and employment against non-Jews. What are the facts?

[mobuto]

5. As always

there's a difference between the law and reality. Many Israelis are anti-Arab, which is understandable if not excusable by the fact they've been at constant war with the Arabs for sixty years.

The law says you can't discriminate but so long as ethnic tensions persist, you'll see some discrimination. And Israeli courts routinely overturn those acts of discrimination when they are litigated.

But you want to see real discrimination? Send a Jew to try to buy land in Hebron. That'll be interesting.

[_Jumper_]

7. Response

Is there de facto segregation in Israel?

Obviously Israel is far more tolerant than its neighbors. At least it tries to clamp down on hatred, whereas you have hate being promoted by the government in Palestinian areas, Saudi Arabia, Egpyt, etc.

[number6]

19. so when will I see Israeli Arab Settlers?

??

[ithacan]

2. but no progressive should support right-wing governments

no matter where they are.

Right wingers are right wingers, whether they are in the US or in Israel.

Right wingers need conflict and war. They need fear. They thrive on hatred.

No progressive can or should support the right wing forces in Israel (or anywhere else). They should not support right wing governments. Even in times of war and crisis; especially in times of war and crisis.

Because right wingers don't want to resolve those crises. They want to make them worse.

In the end right wingers make us all less safe, wherever they are.

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. You want right wingers?

How much more right wing can you can than the many Arab governments that are virtual dictatorships? How much more right wing can you get than the way women are treated in the Arab world?

Remember, right wing in Israel still means mostly progressive politics. The only thing Sharon is really right wing about is the Palestinians.

[mobuto]

6. Virtual dictatorships?

What does "virtual" add?"

How are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, the UAE, Jordan, Libya, etc. anything but complete and total dictatorships?

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. I was being nice

I try to write always in absolutes so I don't stir too much ire. But I agree with you 100%.

[ithacan]

10. wrong. Right wing is right wing

right wing in israel does not mean "mostly progressive politics" any more than right wing in the US does or right wing in the arab world.

Sharon is a right winger, period. Not just on foreign policy or policy towards palestinians. He's a right winger.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that Israel, like any other liberal democracy, has a wide ideological range, which includes right wingers, who are on the same page as right wingers in this country.

it's ironic that DU-ers, who I'd guess are not going to give US right wingers a pass, are so willing to do so in the case of Israel.

Why does this matter?

Because right wingers consistently, without exception, lead policies that end up making their countries less secure, for all the reasons I posted above.

[el_gato]

11. dictatorships that are supported by the right-wing U.S. capitalists

just like saddam was

The isreali government is just as corrupt.

[MikeGalos]

14. So then you're even more vocally condemning:

• Syria
• Egypt
• Lebanon
• Libya
• Kuwait
• The Palestine Authority
• Saudi Arabia
• Iraq (old and new government)
• Afghanistan (old and new government)
• Iran
• Jordan
• Yemen
• Sudan
• Ethiopia
• Algeria
• Tunesia

since all of their governments are by any measure considerably worse and much more right-wing than Israel.

Funny. I must have missed all those outraged postings. Or do you just expect Israel to be perfect before anyone else is allowed to be criticized or just single out Israel for some other, unnamed reason?

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I thought this was the I/P forum...

Not the Everywhere Else forum. I'm pretty sure no-one expects Israel to be perfect, and there's even some of us who multiskill and can be critical of many governments. But I find the attempts by some to deflect attention in the I/P forum away from Israel by insisting that Israel shouldn't be criticised before a certain level of criticism is aimed at some unrelated government to be pretty ridiculous. When it comes to democracies and my belief they should by their very nature adhere to a higher standard than non-democracies, I've never thought of comparing the right wing govts of Israel and the US to see which is worse. They're both appalling, both contain racists, and both have to go. There is no way a progressive could be true to themselves and support either regime, imo....

Violet...

[MikeGalos]

18. Um, gee

The PA is in that list. And I'd be happy to see links to all those other outraged posts in the parent FA/NS section. Oh wait, they're not there...

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Well, gosh...

Plenty of people critical of Israel's actions in the Occupied Territories have been critical of both the PA and Arafat in this forum in the past. Ditto with criticism of other regimes in the FA forum. But as this isn't the FA forum, I stand by what I said in my earlier post...

Violet...

[MikeGalos]

27. So you're saying

that you oppose the PA government and Arafat even more than you oppose Israel and Sharon?

Can we get that in writing?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. No, I'm not saying that...

If I was saying it, it would have already been here in writing. Also, I have never said that I oppose Israel and have consistantly held the view that I support Israel's right to exist. The criticisms I have of the PA and the Israeli govt are different criticisms and I've never thought to waste my time working out a silly list of Top 10 Worst leaders, and even if I ever did, I doubt very much that if I woke up one morning and thought to myself that Arafat is worse than Sharon that I'd start defending Sharon and his policies, any more than if I decided that the US govt is worse than the Australian govt that I'd start defending Howard and Liberal policy...


Violet...

[ithacan]

22. deflecting attention is a typical right wing ploy

if you ever talk to right wingers and bring up points they can't refute, they deflect attention.

[GabysPoppy]

23. What a coincidence

I see the same with many pro-Palestinian supporters.

[Forkboy]

24. I see it from both sides

[GabysPoppy]

26. Thank you for agreeing with me

[Djinn]

36. I criticise US and Australian POLICY too

That doesn't mean for a second that I think Aust or US policy is the worst on Earth. DO I have to hold off on any criticism of the world biggest superpower or my own country until every other nation improves? No of course not.

Policy in caps in subject line because critising policy or successive policies is not equal to criticism of an entire country, plenty of Israeli's didn't vote for Sharon.

And on the PA question - when they have a working security structure, a tax base, a defence capability and a country I'll expect the asme from them as I do from Israel

[ixion]

3. while the aspects you mention are indeed progressive in nature

the fact that Israel, very arguably an rogue state, kills Muslims with seemingly very little regard for humanity in general, and this I cannot abide.

If Israel would apply the same rights to all humans as they apply to Israelis, then I would be more likely to support them, but as long as they persist in demonizing a demoralized and tortured group of people, they will remain uncivil, hence unprogressive.

[mike_c]

9. what part of apartheid and brutality don't you understand?

Israel might indeed treat it's own Jewish citizens to the perqs of a democratic society, just as South Africa was an awfully sweet place to be white thirty years ago. It's own Arab citizens are second class at best, however, and face institutionalized discrimination. And then there are the Palestinians....

[MikeGalos]

13. The part where it has anything to do with Israel

unless, of course, you're totally misinformed and repeating lies you were told without checking them out or you have some definitions of apartheid and brutality of which the world was previously unaware.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[MikeGalos]

16. "Why progressives can support the PA" would be a better question.

And one I have no idea how to answer.

How are:

• State supported terrorist attacks on civilians of multiple nations
• A corrupt government complete with hit squads
• A fully managed and manipuated press
• A "president" who has stolen billions of dollars of aid money
• No rights for anyone of another ethnic group
• No rights for gays or lesbians
• Citizenship tied to ethnicity
• A policy of expelling members of non-approved ethnic groups

in any way compatible with progressive ideas? Perhaps that's why the Democratic Party supports Israel...

[methinks2]

21. UHHH

I heard that a woman can't get a divorce in Israel unless the big jerk she's divorcing agrees to divorce. If this is true, that is not equal rights. I heard that Israel is a Theocracy. Only Orthodox Jews get equal property rights. Have I been deceived? Can Muslims buy property anywhere they want in Israel? How about Christians. Since Bethlehem is a Christian holy site, do Christians have complete equal rights? I heard some Christians are stuck in the Palestinian territories. If any of this is true, then, as a progressive I can't support them until, as a Christian progressive I would have complete equal rights. Complete!

[MikeGalos]

28. You heard a lot of things that flat out aren't true

Perhaps you need to stop listening to the people you've been listening to.

As to your question of have you been deceived?
Yes

[Lithos]

30. Methinks

Israeli law grants authority to each religion and major sect to establish their own Religious court to govern civil laws such as divorce and marriage for their adherents. Thus Roman Catholics use their own court which differs from that used by Jews which differs in turn from that used by Greek Orthodox, etc.

Granted there is a weakness from a US perspective in that there is no civil recourse for divorce and the added difficulty that dual religion divorces must go through the Supreme Court to determine which Religious court holds authority, to comment on the rightness or wrongness of a particular belief's divorce practice is inappropriate and against I/P forum guidelines.

Lithos

[Forkboy]

25. I do support Israel

Just not their government.

[Flagg]

29. I support Israel, not Sharon the war criminal

the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon



we won't forget

http://guardian.911review.org/Palestine/sharon-crime-history.htm

[MikeGalos]

31. For someone who "won't forget"

It seems that you forgot that the massacre of various people (Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians) in Sabra and Shatila was done by Lebanese Phalangists.

You also seem to have forgotten that the Phalangists killed the people in the camps to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Gemayel and 25 of his followers the week before - hardly an Israeli motive.

Why are you conveniently forgetting that this was a massacre committed by an Arab army?

It also seems that you forgot about when the Moslim militia attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh refugee camps in May 1985 and killed 635 Palestinians and wounded 2,500.

You've got a very selective memory there. It seems that when Lebanese Christians kill Moslems, you seem to remember it being the Jews' fault and when Moslems kill the same people, you don't remember it at all. Perhaps you should get it looked at.

[Flagg]

32. we are talking about Israel and Sharon here I believe

Sharon committed these crimes
period

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ex_jew]

34. Ugh ... the U of Chicago

Home of Scalia, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz, Bork, Leo Strauss.

A very bad place. I know because I went there. I'll get my advice to progressives somewhere (anywhere ?) else.

[Darranar]

35. What, exactly, is support for Israel?

Support of security and prosperity for the Israeli people?

Support for the current government of Israel?

Support for all or most of the current government's policies?

Support of Israel's right to exist?

Support for Israel's current policies in the Occupied (or Disputed, if you prefer) Territories?

[durutti]

37. Sure, "progressives" can support apartheid.

But believers in liberty, equality, and social justice certainly can't.