America an Israel ally against terror

[Herschel]

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America needs reliable, like-minded friends to join the battle. No nation on earth fits this category more than Israel. We are both modern, liberal democracies targeted by the same gang of regressive, murderous thugs.

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The majority of Israelis, like most Americans, understand that military security is the foundation of peace and prosperity, and that ignoring threats and trying to negotiate them away is a recipe for suicide.

This clear-headed appreciation of how the world operates has led Israel to take the forceful actions that are needed to defeat the enemies of democracy and civilization. In 1981, they preemptively destroyed Iraq’s French-built nuclear facility at Osirak, just before it was to begin operating. There is no doubt that Saddam would have used or threatened to use nuclear weapons in his war with Iran, and he would be dominating the Middle East today were it not for prudent Israeli leaders and brave Israeli pilots, one of whom, Col. Ilan Ramon, died in the Columbia space shuttle tragedy last year.

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Israel also goes after the leaders of the Palestinian terrorists who are too cowardly to risk their own lives in battle and so must brainwash young people into becoming suicide bombers. They disrupt terrorist financing and safe havens. Again, Israel was using these tools while the U.S. was attempting to end the terrorist threat through litigation or the occasional, ineffectual cruise missile strike.

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http://maroon.uchicago.edu/viewpoints/articles/2004/02/13/america_an_israel_al.php

Some items for thought. I will leave it at that.

[_Jumper_]

1. What about all this?

I've been researching 9/11 recently and have a found a lot of disturbing claims about Israel. Much of it is obvious nonsense, such as the canard about 4,000 Jews being missing from the WTC but some of it appears to be legitimate. Can anyone verify the following:

1) The Lavon affair(1954)-Allegedly, Israel's Mossad carried out several terrorist attacks in Egypt, including one on an American diplomatic building. It left behind evidence that would link Arabs to it which would result in Western anger against the Arabs and aid Israel's cause. Eventually it was discovered that Mossad was behind the attacks.

2) Marine barracks bombing (1983)-Allegedly, Israel had advance knowledge of that attacks but witheld them because it would increase American hostility toward Arabs which would redound to their advantage.

3) Israel duped Raygun into bombing Libya (1986)-Allegedly, Israel used a special communication device that could be planted by naval commandos deep inside enemy territory. The device would act as a relay station for misleading transmissions made by the disinformation unit in the Mossad, called LAP, and intended to be received by American and British listening stations. Originating from an IDF navy ship out at sea, the prerecorded digital transmissions could be picked up only by the Trojan. The device would then rebroadcast the transmission on another frequency, one used for official business in the enemy country, at which point the transmission would finally be picked up by American ears in Britain. Israel used it to dupe Raygun into bombing Libya.

4) Israeli 9/11 spy ring linked to the hijackers-An Israeli spy ring
was tracking several of the hijackers--one spy group practically lived next door to Mohammad Atta--prior to being caught in the summer of 2001. Given this, it is very likely that it knew about the attacks. Or worse, was it involved in the attacks like Pakistan's ISI was? Here is a link to a bunch of articles on the issue: http://www.antiwar.com/israelfiles2.html


Is all this a bunch of lies? Or is Israel a country that couldn't care less about America if it advances its interest? Or is Israel's Mossad just another cog in the NWO like Pakistan's ISI?

[Aidoneus]

4. from what I know,

1)--the Lavon Affair is true, and a most sordid affair in Zionist political history. The idea was intended first to drive a wedge between US & Egypt, and also to encourage immigration to the new state established over Palestine. Such a "terrorist" campaign was also carried out in Iraq by Israel in the same time period, also to encourage immigration.

2)--haven't heard the bit about them knowing about the barracks bombing in advance, and I wouldn't believe that myself. The planning for it was done very discreetly, and the Israeli occupation forces in another part of Lebanon were hit with a similar blast a short while after. There was no advantage for the Zionists or even Americans to cover up any knowledge of that in advance. Both causes were harmed by the effective resistance campaign and both would eventually retreat, not triumph, because of such events. I don't know if the claim is correct or not, but to have known and done nothing would have been stupid for them either way.

3)--I've heard that about Libya before, sounds plausible. The Libyans didn't have a clue what they were being bombed for. What is more interesting/appalling to me is how many medals were passed out for bombing people at night while they slept in their beds--is that what passes for bravery and honour to us? Seems so..

4)--um.. for various reasons, I don't touch the "Israeli spy ring" story with a 10ft-pole. I wouldn't doubt it if it was true, or if it wasn't for that matter, but it's not a subject I put much time towards looking into (again, for various reasons).

Your last line is about right, as it seems to be.. adding that for however menacing their mythologized reputation and reach is, they're just as bumbling and clumsy as the CIA is, in that the feats they try to pull off usually blow up in their faces.
I think it's important to note that Zionism & Israel are more a pawn of Western/US imperialist interests, like so many other things in the world, rather than "the Jews" as the ones sitting in the driver's seat. That's often overlooked, to destructive effect.

[_Jumper_]

6. Respomse

The Marine barracks bombing claim was allegedly made by Victor Ostrovsky, a former Israeli secret agent in a new book, "By Way of Deception". I haven't read the book so I can't verify it.

The spy ring certainly existed. The only question is what it was doing here.

I am inclined to believe the NWO theory. If it were a rogue, unreliable nation, obviously it wouldn't be backed by America. It plays its role just like Britain, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

[Aidoneus]

7. ah.. haven't read Ostrovsky's work either

I may get around to it someday, but sometimes the mythology about Mossad puts me off. I prefer to focus on the in-front-of-the-curtain sort of things, which are undeniable and just as damning, if not worse..

I'll have to read his arguments for foreknowledge of the barracks blast, but it being true doesn't make sense to me.

I am inclined to believe the NWO theory. If it were a rogue, unreliable nation, obviously it wouldn't be backed by America. It plays its role just like Britain, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

That's about right. It is a useful pawn that plays the role that is expected of it, and usually quite well at that. The occupation of Palestine is not going as well as everybody had hoped, as it was expected that 80yrs of being roughed up and pushed around would've drained their will to resist by now. In general Israel is expected to be a surrogate hammer, both militarily and psychologically wielded against the independent Arab & Islamic nationalists who commit the unpardonable sin of putting their own interests above ours.

[ixion]

11. Israel was created by Britain

in their 'empire' days. That is its only claim to legitimacy, and given the nature of it's creation, my opinion is that the claim is in error.

And it's role since it's creation is dubious at best.

[GabysPoppy]

13. As I interpret your post

You seem to dispute the RIGHT of Israel to exist.

Please correct me if I am in error.

[GabysPoppy]

18. I guess I wasn't wrong

n/t necessary

[ixion]

2. oh please

The so-called War on Terror is an abomination that should never have seen the light of day. Like its ugly little brother, the War on Drugs, it is a war of abstraction that can never be won.

This seems to me like nothing more than facist propaganda.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. So do you just surrender?

Or do you still fight?

Amorphous wars can never be won. Look at Ireland. Hundreds of years and they are still fighting. But peace has been achieved for most.

[ixion]

5. I don't see the issue as fight or surrender

I tend to be more reformist. The 'terror' is not the cause but a symptom. And many governments tend to be the largest sponsors of terror, IMO.
The goal is to work towards an enlightened solution. Killing solves nothing. If historical evidence proves anything, it is this.

Killing is killing no matter how you want to spin it. As long as we use violence against violence, nothing will change.

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. Killing can solve a lot of problems

Killing actually is quite effective, but it is not a permanent solution. Yes, let's export democracy and freedom to the Arab world. It couldn't hurt.

[el_gato]

9. total bullshit

we are not exporting democracy anywhere
hell we don't even have a democracy here in the U.S.

and the Isreali government is just as corrupt

It's time to stop trying to control other people for
the sake of greed. That's the real reason why U.S. government is
hated around the world.

By the way the lead post is nothing but bullshit propaganda.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. What is BS?

First off, I was suggesting that we export democracy. And yes, we still have a democracy in the U.S. Sorry you didn't realize that.

Every nation has corruption, that is inevitiable.

I am NOT suggesting we control people. Democracy, by definition, suggests just the opposite.

[number6]

17. you got it el_gato

we are not exporting democracy anywhere
hell we don't even have a democracy here in the U.S.

I'd like to see it here in the U.S
bring back the Bill of Rights and Constitution
that bush and ashcroft destroyed

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Killing is necessary sometimes

Killing for self defense is especially necessary. Killing in war the same.

Like I said, killing has ended our disagreements with England twice. It gained Texas independence and freed my people. It saved Europe from conquest a bunch of times and saved the world especially from fascist domination by the Axis.

Yep, killing ain't nice, but it does work.

[Flagg]

19. "Killing can solve a lot of problems"

The Palestians agree with you here

see
you got something in common after all

[bemildred]

12. This cites Robert Kagan.

Kagan is a PNAC founder:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/robertkaganbio.htm

This piece being from UChi one might have suspected there would
be some Straussians around. This little bit is classic, and is
also utter bullshit:

The majority of Israelis, like most Americans, understand that
military security is the foundation of peace and prosperity, and that
ignoring threats and trying to negotiate them away is a recipe for
suicide.

The notion that war leads to peace and prosperity is Orwellian:

War is peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

[number6]

16. I'd call it the war to create more terrorists

poorly and incompetently done by Bu$hco.

1. troops bogged down in Iraq, when they could be used
better elsewhere.

2. more Innocent people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan
than WTC attack.

3. nothing but silly slogans and ignorance, instead of
solid intelligence

terrorism is a tactic, not a political movement, anybody
can use it...

a war on terrorism ? how bout a war on carpet bombing
or artillery barrages ?

its a farce