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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 04:13 PM
Original message
Why the Double Standards?...
...

David Ignatius of the Washington Post wrote on September 16, 2003 of the danger in playing America's Turkish card in Iraq. In the course of the article, when mentioning the Kurds, he referred to them only as terrorists or rebels.

Now think about that for a minute. At a time when most media folks are still debating whether or not Arabs -- who deliberately blow up busloads of Jewish innocents in buses, pizza parlors, teen nightclubs, etc.-- are "militants" or "terrorists," folks like Mr. Ignatius have no problem using the "T" word for Kurds.

...

Just imagine if Israel was to say that under no circumstances would another Palestinian Arab state be permitted to be created (Jordan having been carved out, in 1922, of some 80% of the original borders of Mandatory Palestine as Britain received it on April 25, 1920).

Could you envision the outcry around the world? Yet this is precisely what our friends, the Turks, have stated over and over again regarding the Kurds. And besides David Ignatius' comments, this has been echoed elsewhere as well such as in Thomas Friedman's March 26th article in the New York Times. Friedman advised that the Kurds should be told point blank, "what part of 'no' don't you understand? ...You Kurds are not breaking away."

Nauseating. These are the same authors who, along with many others, have written volumes espousing the creation of that 23rd Arab state,

While the Turks' nervousness over such a thought is understandable, their position (as well as Ignatius', Friedman's, etc.) is morally indefensible...if that means anything these days. We'll return to this issue as well later on. At this time, however, we need to take a good look at the plight of some 30 million perpetually used and abused Kurds. Think about all of the journalistic, political, and other energy which has been devoted to the creation of that 23rd Arab state. Now ask yourselves how much has been devoted to the plight of stateless Kurds? Think of Mr. Ignatius' and Mr. Friedman's comments for starters.

For several decades now, in the study of Middle Eastern Affairs, some subjects have appeared to be taboo while others never seem to leave center stage. Perhaps one reason for this state of affairs lies in the perpetual quest for Arab petro-dollars by financially hungry academic institutions. Another possibly related reason has something to do with those who have hijacked an intolerant control of Middle Eastern Studies in academia. Israel, constantly in the spotlight's glare, is thus frequently picked apart (all in the name of "objective scholarship" of course), and every real and/or imaginary sin is repeatedly exposed for all to see and pass judgment upon. Indeed, many academics have taken the lead recently to single Israel out and treat it as a pariah in their attempts to have their institutions cut all ties to it.

The mere suggestion that Pan-Arabism or Arab nationalism has problems with Jewish nationalism/Zionism for at least some of the same reasons it has had similar problems elsewhere--Berber North Africa, Lebanon, Syrian and Iraqi Kurdistan, the Sudan, etc.--can elicit harsh rebuke. In the classroom, however, such subjects are more often than not simply not dealt with at all. Rare is the classroom, for example, that gets into a discussion of the "other side" of the Middle East refugee problem, the one half of Israel's Jews who fled Arab/Muslim lands as a result of the war Arabs launched against the nascent Jewish State. Even more rare is the class that puts the 1947 partition plan for Palestine into the broader context of another partition going on at the very same time between Hindus and Muslims over the Indian subcontinent. The double standard frequently reigns supreme, and while students are often left with the impression that one national movement holds a monopoly on evil and injustice, the other is in line for imminent canonization.

...

Some thirty million proud, much abused, and beleaguered people--still not in possession of one state let alone two dozen others--are thus simply disregarded in a grotesque display of moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy by the very same circles promoting an Arafatian state. What's even worse, outside of academia, an Arabist-dominated State Department perpetuates this problem for its own largely oil-tainted reasons. And most of the media engages in this double standard as well.

The story of Kurdish nationalism is a depressing one when compared with that of other nationalisms in the Middle East. Arab and Iranian nationalisms, for example, are replete with events causing anger, frustration, setbacks, and the like, but their futures remain alive with the promise of a better tomorrow. Not so, however, for the Kurds...That is, not until recently. While great forces are still working against this--not the least being those at Foggy Bottom-- the war in Iraq has the potential to, at long last, right an historic wrong. It is time...

...

The best and most reasonable chance for Kurdish independence was sacrificed, however, in the immediate post-World War I era on the altar of British petroleum politics and Arab nationalism. What was promised as "Kurdistan" became Arab Iraq instead. The odds against a favorable outcome to such aspirations grew immensely from then on. Among other things, Arab nationalists feared that if such a state arose it would become the focus of immigration for millions of Kurds living in Turkey and Iran. Arabs also wrote that they would see the birth of an independent Kurdistan as equivalent to the creation of another Israel, i.e. it would permanently separate lands from what Arabs claimed solely for themselves.

...

Funny, these same Foggy Bottom folks don't think twice about what the creation of a second Palestinian Arab state will do to both a miniscule, 9-mile wide Israel and a Jordan whose majority population is Palestinian Arab. Repeated partitions are legitimate for Palestine, but not even one is permissible for Mesopotamia/Iraq. There will be no "Road Map" for Kurdistan...What's wrong with this picture?

The real reasons for our State Department not wanting this, of course, are quite different. One of the main issues is the same one that Britain had when it aborted an independent Kurdistan in the first place: fear of angering the Arab world. But think of what could happen if Mosul and Kirkuk's oil became part of a long overdue, friendly Kurdish State with America as its main ally...

...

So here's our current challenge-- if we can overcome the Arabists who too frequently call the shots at the State Department. We now have a chance to right an historical wrong. If Arabs can, after all, have twenty-two states, and very possibly a 23rd in the future, on lands mostly conquered and forcibly arabized from other, non-Arab peoples, how can thirty million Kurds be forced to forever remain stateless and usually at someone else's mercy?

...

http://radicalacademy.com/studentrefpolitics22gah.htm
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. "second Palestinian Arab state"
Edited on Fri Feb-20-04 04:25 PM by tinnypriv

Really "radical" - the same position of most of Likud now, and all of Likud and Labor (or their forerunner organisations) from 1947-90's. :dunce:

Oh, and nobody calls Ariel Sharon a "terrorist" either, which he is. And nobody called Shamir one, even though he was publically proud of terrorism. I hardly think that demonstrates a "pro-Israel" bias, so the opposite doesn't represent a "pro-Arab" one either.

It's hard to believe that any of this is intended seriously.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. picking the low hanging fruit of the article...
does not address Kurdish nationalisim and the meager lack of pro-Kurdish independence zealots thereof...
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. No it doesn't
But then the article is hardly worthy of serious comment, as I indicated.
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Blayde Starrfyre Donating Member (428 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Way to label an entire group of people
'At a time when most media folks are still debating whether or not Arabs -- who deliberately blow up busloads of Jewish innocents in buses, pizza parlors, teen nightclubs, etc.-- are "militants" or "terrorists,"'

That's right, ALL Arabs do this. Since Timothy McVeigh is a terrorist, all Americans of Irish descent are too. Better come get me, Mr. Bush.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The way I see it, the sentence isn't referring to all Arabs
but to those Arabs "who deliberately blow up up busloads of Jewish innocents in buses, pizza parlors, teen nightclubs, etc."

The language is awkward but the meaning is clear.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. "Arabs"
Why not make a distinction between Palestinians and other Arabs, as well as between Israelis and other Jews?
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Because terrorism has not been restricted to Palestinians
Jordanians, Egyptians, Tunisians, Iraqis, and Lebanese, among others, have taken part and I'd be happy to provide examples of each.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Nor is it restricted to Arabs or even Muslims
Edited on Sat Feb-21-04 04:18 PM by Jack Rabbit
Checyans, Basques, Colombian leftist guerrillas, Colombian rightist paramilitaries. How about what those uniformed thugs in Indonesia did in East Timor and continue to do in Aceh?

No one has a monopoly on such crimes.

Also, concerning this sentence:

Now think about that for a minute. At a time when most media folks are still debating whether or not Arabs -- who deliberately blow up busloads of Jewish innocents in buses, pizza parlors, teen nightclubs, etc.-- are "militants" or "terrorists," folks like Mr. Ignatius have no problem using the "T" word for Kurds.

I hope that Mr. Honigman meant to say what you believe he meant to say, but the meaning to me is by no means clear. I would feel better about agreeing with you on this point if I thought more highly of this piece than I do, but, alas, I feel Mr. Honingman presents this as less a work to promote the worthiness of Kurdish nationalism but as an attempt to denigrate Palestinian nationalism or Arab positions in general (see post number 9, below).

If he really meant to say what you think he meant to say, then he would have punctuated the sentence as follows:

Now think about that for a minute. At a time when most media folks are still debating whether or not Arabs who deliberately blow up busloads of Jewish innocents in buses, pizza parlors, teen nightclubs, etc. are "militants" or "terrorists," folks like Mr. Ignatius have no problem using the "T" word for Kurds.

As he wrote it, it implies that all Arabs are terrorists. I don't think he really believes that; unfortunately, given the intellectual dishonesty of the piece, I don't think he cares whether that point is clear to his readers.
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Must Win 2004 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. What do
Checyans and uniformed thugs in Indonesia have in common with ME terrorists?

I'll give you one guess.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Other than being terrorists, nothing
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 10:07 AM by Jack Rabbit
Other than beign thugs, Chechnyan guerrillas and the Indonesian army have little else in common with each other, let alone ME terrorists.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Deleted message
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Your point?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Deleted message
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. It is indeed a big problem
Am I to assume that all Muslims are part of an international monolithic movement of Islamofascists or that every atrocity committed by a Muslim anywhere is evidence of such a conspiracy?

I don't think so.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Deleted message
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Pretty damn awkward language, I must say ...
..
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Critique
Edited on Sat Feb-21-04 01:14 PM by Jack Rabbit
On the outset, there is nothing wrong with advocating the establishment of a Kurdish state for the same reasons that one would advocate a Jewish state or a Palestinian state. Kurds, like Jews prior to the establishment of Israel and Palestinians today, are played as pawns in a wider international game. Kurds, like Jews and Palestinians, are often subject to persecution; the establishment of a Kurdish state would give Kurds persecuted abroad a needed refuge.

Beyond that, one might begin to wonder whether Mr. Honigman has come out of right field. He begins by asserting that "the media" is reluctant to denote suicide bombings aimed at civilian targets with the term terrorism. My personal observations quite different; the word terrorism is used so frequently that it almost loses meaning.

Mr. Honigman loses further credibility by asserting that Jordan is the Palestinian state. This is nonsense. The modern state of Jordan is "Palestinian" only in the sense that it derives British Mandated Palestine, a region that was composed of many different ethnic groups, including an indigenous group of Arabs who began identifying themselves as Palestinians in the early twentieth century. While the East Bank contains an indigenous population of these Palestinian Arabs, who are distinct from Bedouins and other Arab groups, Jordan is not a Palestinian state. It is a kingdom ruled by a member of the Hashem family, whose roots are on the Red Sea coast of Saudi Arabia and which once was also the royal family of Iraq. This is a circumstance brought about be dealings of the British colonial administration, a region that was composed of the present states of Jordan and Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, which have never been organized into a state.

Like many who who argue that Jordan is Palestine, Mr. Honigman relies on the history of the British Mandate and the Balfour Declaration, totally ignoring that the British ran the Mandate like Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom ran a Broadway production. They made so many promises to so many different parties that they suddenly they realized that they had sold more than 100% of the interest in the future of Palestine and Trans-Jordan. After World War II, the British, finding it impossible to keep their commitments, turned the Mandate over the United Nations, the successor of the League of Nations from whom they received the Mandate in the twenties. At that point, the UN drew up new plans to partition the land west of the Jordan River between Arabs and Jews. In spite of the rantings of Mr. Honigman or less reputable figures of the Israeli right wing such as Benny Elon, any British plans for partition become little more than a footnote of history after 1947.

The crisis of conflict that followed Israel's declaration of independence swelled the ranks of Palestinian refugees in the West Bank and what is now Jordan. Jordan's King Abdallah I declared that his kingdom was the legitimate successor of the Palestinian mandate and annexed the West Bank in 1950. Under Abdallah, Jordan was a state of many national groups whose independent identity Abdallah (who belonged to none of them) attempted to suppress. This included a banning of the terms Palestine and Palestinian. (See Kimmerling and Migdal, The Palestinian People: a History (Harvard University Press, 1994, 2003), p. 219).

Indeed, the relationship between Palestinians in Jordan and the Hashem dynasty have generally been characterized by struggle and attempts at subornation of the former to the will and interests of the latter. This came to a bloody crisis in September 1970 after members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine hijacked three international jetliners, flew them to Jordan's desert and blew them up; King Hussein sent his troops to disarm Palestinian guerrillas and some guerrilla organizations declared a "liberated area" in northern Jordan. What followed was open warfare that resulted in the deaths of thousands. In the aftermath of the conflict, Arafat signed an agreement with King Hussein recognizing Jordanian sovereignty and the authority of the Hashemite king. Some Palestinian state, that.

In light of these events, it must be concluded that those who assert that Jordan is a Palestinian state simply either don't know what they are talking about or don't care. Far from being a refuge for Palestinians who face persecution outside their homeland, the Hashemite Kingdom's bloody history of suppressing Palestinian nationalism only serves as example of why a Palestinian state is needed.

Otherwise, Mr. Honigman peppers his piece with curious phrases like "Arabist-dominated state department". That is about as good as his assertion that "the media" soft-peddles Palestinian terrorism. The policy of the United States under the present junta as well as all past legitimate administrations is to support the interests of Israel above those of Arab states or Palestinian refugees. The junta has been called "the most pro-Israeli administration in history." Indeed, it has been pro-Israeli to a fault, perhaps to the long term detriment of the Jewish state; but that is another matter.

In truth, Mr. Honigman's piece is a healthy serving of red herring. He is saying that since we don't support an independent Kurdistan, there is no reason why should we support an independent Palestine. He then goes on to give some good reasons for supporting an independent Kurdistan that have nothing to do with the merits of supporting an independent Palestine.

Indeed, both cases have their own merits. One might look forward to a case for an independent Kurdistan being presented by a reasonable person whose agenda does not include the denigration of any other national movement. Mr. Honigman failed in that respect. His piece is on the whole very unworthy of serious consideration.

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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Maybe...
He is saying that since we don't support an independent Kurdistan, there is no reason why should we support an independent Palestine. He then goes on to give some good reasons for supporting an independent Kurdistan that have nothing to do with the merits of supporting an independent Palestine.

Maybe he is wondering why we don't support an independent Kurdistan with the same enthusiasm as we support an independent Palestine.

Maybe also he wonders why some people aren't as critical of Turkey for its opposition to "another Arab state" as they are critical of Israel for its reluctance to support a Palestinian state.

Generally speaking, in the U.S. we hear little about the Kurds and Turks, but almost daily about the Palestinians and the Israelis, although both Turkey and Israel are allies of the U.S. Each situation has its own complexities, of course, but to hear nearly nothing about one and almost daily about the other is hardly an example of balanced reporting in the media.

IMO, if the Kurds started sending suicide bombers into Turkey the situation would be entirely different. It remains to be seen, however, whether Kurdish suicide bombers would be called "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" in the American press.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Turkey and the Kurds are ignored by the American press...
for a reason.

The situation there would reveal how the a US client state (Turkey) ethnically cleansed itself of the Kurds. Not good for the populace's view of US policy.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. You are wrong
Yes, the Turks treat the Kurds horribly. The press ignores it because no one really cares.

Sorry, but there is enough misery in the world to fill a gazillion newspapers. Most folks would not read them. One of the classic things news folks use is an expression, "What does this mean to the reader." In the case of the Kurds, the answer is sadly, no much.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. There's something to that...
but either way it is not a sign of anti-semitism.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Response

Maybe he is wondering why we don't support an independent Kurdistan with the same enthusiasm as we support an independent Palestine.

I would be more inclined to give Mr. Honingman credit for that if he had not included so many talking points of the Israeli right in his piece.

The other problem is have with that statement is that I don't see the US government supporting a Palestinian state enthusiastically; I see the US government supporting a Palestinian state reluctantly and conditionally.
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ProudLefty Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. It's not just your opinion, LeahMira.
The Islamofascist suicide bombers coupled with world (oops, can't name it!) makes Israel the bad guy. It's insane and backwards, I know.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Oh come on...
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 11:58 AM by MikeGalos
The modern state of Jordan is "Palestinian" only in the sense that it derives British Mandated Palestine, a region that was composed of many different ethnic groups, including an indigenous group of Arabs who began identifying themselves as Palestinians in the early twentieth century.

Get real. We've been over this before and you've NEVER been able to answer the key questions.

So, tell us, what a "Palestinian" state is?

You've said here that being an Arab state in land formerly in the British Mandate of Palestine isn't what's called for so let's rule that out.

You've never shown that a "Palestinian" is anything more than the (Arab-only) refugees of the 1948 war started to prevent Israel and a second "Palestinian" state's formation so it's not like there's a long ethnic identification like the Kurds and Jews have. In fact, it's an idenfication loudly DENIED prior to the 1960s.

I think you've defined the term to only mean whatever the PA says it means this week.

Please. Feel free to show how this is wrong. Tell us EXACTLY what YOU mean by a "Palestinian State".




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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. True, Mr. Galos, we have been over it before
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 12:17 PM by Jack Rabbit
And I refuted your points before. There is an identifiable people called Palestinians and were called such before the creation of the PLO. These people identified their own national interests as distict from other Arab groups, such as Syrians, before the founding of the State of Israel. I refer you once again to the excellent work of Professors Kimmerling and Migdal, cited above.

If you wish to continue denying that, go right ahead. No matter how often you repeat such denials, it won't validate them.

That is all I will say on this matter today. You may reply to this post if you like, but I stand on what I have said.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Nonsense
you didn't refute anything. You just said "Not true - not true" a lot but offered NO facts.

Please answer the questions or admit you don't have answers.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I didn't see the deleted response
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 04:14 PM by MikeGalos
but it seems to me there are two possible answers:

  1. "Palestinian" is anyone who lived or whose direct ancestors lived inside the "British Mandate of Palestine" in which case, there are two existing "Palestinian" states, Israel (which has citizens of all represented racial, ethnic and religious groups with full rights for all of them) and Jordan (which explicitly bans any Jew from becoming a citizen and has for roughly 80 years)
  2. "Palestinian" is a renaming of the Arab - and only the Arab - refugees of the 1948 war where the Arab League tried to prevent a non-Arab state from being formed despite international and UN mandate that they do so. In which case, there is NO SUCH THING as a "Palestinian" except as a euphemism for refugees that were refused citizenship or resettlement and were kept in camps by their own people for over 50 years.

Take your pick. Either there are already 2 existing "Palestinian States" and creating another is just a political faction fight between Arafat and the Jordanians after he lost his coup attempt against them or there's no such thing as a "Palestinian" by any accepted definition.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. That's okay
The deleted response wasn't mine.

I have nothing more to say.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. There is NO existing Palestinian state...
Prior to the creation of Israel, anyone living in the British Mandate was a Palestinian, and were referred to as such. Israel did NOT become a Palestinian state. The people that became part of that state became Israelis, and while the Arab population would be Palestinian, they're only a minority in the state, and there is no way anyone could seriously suggest Israel is a Palestinian state. Jordan is not a Palestinian state either, and to be honest the only places I see that nonsensical crap is racist anti-Arab sites. The argument always seems to be that those greedy Palestinians are whining about wanting their own state when they've already got one...

Here's a reasonable and progressive way to look at things. It doesn't matter what anyone refers to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories or how many Palestinian states they conjure up elsewhere, or how they try to claim that if Palestinian nationalism didn't exist prior to a certain year then obviously the Palestinian people don't exist. Those people are on their land and they want their own state. They should have it. Israel doesn't want them, that's for sure...


Violet...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. So you have no answer
but attack what you can't defend...

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Uh, you didn't ask a question...
What I did was address what was posted. If you happen to disagree with anything I said in my post, feel free to say so and to explain why you disagree, and we can continue from there...


Violet...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Actually I did
See post 33.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Mike
You've never shown that a "Palestinian" is anything more than the (Arab-only) refugees of the 1948 war

This has been discussed many times before and you have yet to offer any proof to support this other than to take a position of denial and negativity much like the infamous Monty Python argument skit.

As much as Arafat would like to rewrite history to show himself the prime motivator behind independence, Fatah and other movements did not start in a vacuum.

The fellahin who are today's Palestinians have consistently shown themselves as being different both historically, culturally and economically separate from their neighbors living in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and the Bedouins of the desert. The expressions of modern nationalism and eventual independence started in the 1850's with the increase on autonomy by the Ottoman Empire and expanded further during the Young Turk period of the waning Ottoman Empire.

I will also point out that the use of the term "Arab" in this case brings quite a bit of prejudice to the argument in that it obfuscates the real issues at hand in a very convenient wrapper. The term "Arab" bears much closer resemblance to describing members of the British Commonwealth of Nations or the much earlier Roman Empire than with describing the facets of the individual groups which comprise each member state. While the Dacians and the Gauls were Romans, they were not, nor every, the same. Same with Kenyans and Australians who at one time were considered both British. And likewise, The fellahin were not the Bedouins who were not the Yemeni's, who were not Algerians, etc.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 10:42 AM
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:38 PM
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40. A rose is a rose...
There is no such thing as a "Palestinian homeland" since there are no historic or cultural borders that even come
close to being either what the PLO claimed prior to 1967 (Israel inside the "green line" and NOT the West Bank
and Gaza), after 1967 (Israel inside the "green line" PLUS the West Bank and Gaza) or the current claim of
PRECISELY the West Bank and Gaza - which, by the way are NOT a traditional homeland but the borders of
1920s British Colonial territories and the 1949 cease fire lines)


In a sense, you are right, Mike. But the people that now call themselves Palestinians were living on land that now is part of the state of Israel. In 1948, some of them left on their own, some were forced to leave by the Israelis, and some remained where they were in the hope that neighboring Arab states would "push the Jews into the sea," as the phrase goes.

What is tragic is that the neighboring Arab states were unwilling to assist those refugees after Israel's independence was won. Israel has gladly accepted Jewish refugees from the Soviet Union, Ethiopia and Syria, without regard to their poverty, their skill levels, or their country of origin. In addition, it has granted full citizenship to those Arabs who chose to accept Israeli citizenship (although I can understand why many would not want this option). The Arab states refused to accept "Palestinian" Arab refugees, and in fact oppressed those refugee families and individuals that sought safety in neighboring Arab lands.

Nonetheless, whether there was a group of people distinguishable by their culture and customs that was known as "Palestinian" before 1948, or even before 1967, there is such a group now. That group of people have the right to self-determination and a place to establish permanent homes.

What is tragic at the moment is that once again Arab neighbors and their own leaders are abandoning them. No opportunities for jobs or for education and training have been created. No infrastructure has been built. No trade agreements have been set up. Thousands of human beings are left to survive as best they can in refugee camps that were originally intended as temporary. Rather than sending funds to meet the needs of these people, Arab nations have sent funds in the form of life insurance to pay off families whose members have chosen to die as suicide bombers.

Justice demands that these people be resettled and given opportunities for better lives. By whatever name anyone calls them, they are human beings. IMO, the Arab nations bear the first responsibility for them. But then, the rest of the world needs to take responsibility as well... not by disenfranchising the Israeli people but by offering the Palestinians those opportunities which, unfortunately, their own brethren are failing to offer.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:40 PM
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. A question...
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 06:01 AM by Violet_Crumble
Justice demands that these people be resettled and given opportunities for better lives. By whatever name anyone calls them, they are human beings. IMO, the Arab nations bear the first responsibility for them.

Seeing as how it's Israel that's carrying out the occupation, wouldn't the first responsibility be for Israel to cease the occupation? Or are you just talking about what should happen after the occupation ends? And where should these people be resettled? What if the vast majority of them want to stay where they are? Assuming that most wouldn't want to move, I strongly believe that there's a responsibility on Israel to assist in rebuilding the infrastructure that it's destroyed, though I'm guessing that if (not when) a Palestinian state emerges, the international community would be supplying a lot of aid to the fledgling state....


Violet...

on edit: Sorry. That was several questions, not one :)
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Some answers... my thoughts only
Seeing as how it's Israel that's carrying out the occupation, wouldn't the first responsibility be for Israel to cease the occupation?

First, the Palestinians need to stop supporting terrorism and to bring terrorists to justice. They do have police and jails, and they do know the individuals who are promoting and carrying out terrorist acts.

Then both groups, Israeli and Palestinian, need to agree on territorial boundaries. Each side has to be willing to accept an agreement that might not be 100% perfect. When those things happen, Israel will certainly withdraw its forces from the West Bank and Gaza.

And where should these people be resettled? What if the vast majority of them want to stay where they are?

I don't believe most want to stay where they are at all. I have seen parts of Gaza and I certainly wouldn't want to stay there. The city of Bethlehem in the West Bank is not much better, although it is less crowded. I do think that the U.S. could accept some Palestinans as new immigrants, and certainly other nations in the area could offer some the opportunity for a new beginning. Israel will welcome some of them. Of course some will choose to stay, but given some viable options, I believe that quite a few would want to move elsewhere.

I strongly believe that there's a responsibility on Israel to assist in rebuilding the infrastructure that it's destroyed, though I'm guessing that if (not when) a Palestinian state emerges, the international community would be supplying a lot of aid to the fledgling state....

There isn't a lot of infrastructure in the Palestinian areas, but Israel didn't destroy it. There never were good roads or decent transportation. The Palestinian Authority has made no plans for creating jobs, building schools, or establishing trade with other countries when a separate state is eventually created. You are probably right in assuming that the international community will need to supply assistance and technical expertise, but as yet we have no idea what sort of state the Palestinian people themselves want to create.
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