Proof positive

[Herschel]

(JTA) - Proof positive

Terrorist infiltration has ceased in areas where the West Bank security barrier has been built, Israel's Shin Bet chief said. In a briefing to Israel's Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday, Avi Dichter said areas of Israel still vulnerable to Palestinian suicide bombings were Kafr Kasim, where the West Bank boundary is still open, and Jerusalem. "Ten measures of terror were bequeathed to the world and nine of them ended up" in the northern West Bank, Israeli media quoted Dichter as saying. "Since the fence was built, the terror in this area has ceased completely."

http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2004/02/24/news/world/aaa.txt

The peace fence is not only just, but effective. It stands as a success. I will leave it at that.

[Resistance]

1. yeah

successful at stealing more land from Palestinians.

How brave and noble.

[drdon326]

2. Nah...

self-preservation.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000291.html

[Herschel]

3. It is my understanding

the peace fence encompasses just two percent of the West Bank. A small price to pay.

[Turbineguy]

4. Do you mean

the Fence is on "their" side of the property line?

[Herschel]

7. Small amounts of land

are involved. Again, a small price to pay.

[Turbineguy]

10. So the fence is on their side

and they are paying the "small price".

Has Sharon figured out how to get the Palestinians to pay for the fence or is this one foisted off on the American taxpayer?

[emanymton]

6. At Least The Berlin Wall Was Built In East Germany ...

using East German Territory.

A small price to pay by whom. The land belongs not to the people who are using it for their exclusive means. Not a good way to keep friendly neighbors.

BTW - Love the spin on calling it "peace fense." Ever think of going into marketing? ;-/

[Turbineguy]

12. It just occurred to me

If I surrounded my property with a fence that took up 2 percent of my neighbor's land, I could build a 4 foot thick wall! Why, it's almost medieval! One of them is a different skin color than me, so I am probably fully justified.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. Fence route

Source: BBC

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emanymton]

20. Made Robbing The Palestinian Bank A Whole Lot easier ;-)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

38. A leftist source

However, it does appear to support the claim the existing wall encompasses about 2% of the West Bank.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emanymton]

8. Gives Sharon An Excuse To Act Like Hussein

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Resistance]

11. LOL

next thing you'll try to say that there are no such thing as Palestinians...

:crazy:

[MikeGalos]

21. I would

but it would involve presenting facts and that seems less popular than inflamatory rhetoric.

Tell you what. I'll debate that with you on the condition that both of us are require to only present factual data.

It'll be a short debate and I'll win it but you're welcome to try.

[emanymton]

24. Are You Debating The wall Is On Israel's Land??

[MikeGalos]

28. The reply was to a deleted reply to a deleted post

and was about the "long history" of the "Palestinian people"

[emanymton]

13. The Land Was Being Farmed _Before_ Israel Moved In

A minor point but people were living on the land for a long time before the people of Israel moved on to it.

[MikeGalos]

22. Interesting

Are you thinking of 3500 years ago?

Or do you seriously think that Jews didn't live there before recently?

If the former. True. But, of course, it has nothing to do with your point.

If the latter, you demonstrate that you have no idea of history in the region and I'd love to hear when you think "the people of Israel moved on to it". (Here are some hints: Safed has been a Jewish city for close to two thousand years. Jews have been the largest ethnic group in Jerusalem since they kept records.)

[emanymton]

26. Many People Have Lived There For Many Years. We Agree

Taking someone elses land for your own use seems to be wrong to me.

[MikeGalos]

29. Absolutely

And Israel didn't. They did buy a lot of it. They are holding some as required by UN Security Council Resolution 242(1967) and UN Security Council Resolution 338(1973). But you're going to be really hard pressed to explain a case where Israel took somebody elses land for their own use.

Now, Jordan DID take land that had been allocated for a West Bank Arab state and Egypt DID take land that had been allocated for a Gaza Strip Arab state but there seems to be no problem with that judging from the discussion here.

[emanymton]

31. We Do Agree The "peace fence ;-/" Is NOT On Israeli Land? right

[MikeGalos]

39. wrong

first, tell us what you mean by "Israeli Land"?

Do you mean land that is inside Israels proposed 1947 borders?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's 1949 cease-fire borders?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's 1967 cease-fire borders?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's 1973 cease-fire borders?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by the PA?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by the PLO?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by the Palestinian Charter?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by the Hamas Charter?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by Jordan?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by Egypt?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by Saudi Arabia?
Do you mean land that is inside Israel's borders accepted by the UN?
Do you mean land that Israel is supposed to administer under 242 & 338?
Do you mean land that Israel is supposed to administer under Oslo?

The answer kind of matters before you can say what is and isn't "Israeli land". After all, some of those meanings don't say there IS any Israel.

[Philosophy]

14. Racist

So you condone the oppression of an antire people because the haven't contributed enough to your civilization?

[emanymton]

15. The Writer's Comments Have Not Been Racist At All.

It is a discussion about the fence, the people who built it and those whose land it was built on.

[Resistance]

17. So, you wouldn't mind if someone were to say

"No one is as noble as the Israeli. Poor little victim.

Remind me of some great and good thing an Israeli has done in their long ethnic and cultural history. One will do."

:shrug:

[emanymton]

19. Not Particularly. Statement Shows Lack Of Understanding.

[Jack Rabbit]

23. This article asks no such question

So why bring it up?

The one-paragraph article merely states that where the fence has been completed, it has proved effective. If there is anything wrong with it, it is in what it doesn't say: namely, that the proposed route of the fence would put it well inside Palestinian Territory and that there is no reason to believe that a fence built on or closer to the Green Line would be any less effective in stopping terrorism.

Again, the debate should not be framed in terms of being against the route of the fence means one is against any fence and therefore one would condemn Israelis to terrorist attacks. Neither should it be framed terms of if one favors the fence then one favors the unnecessary confiscation of Palestinian land and the abrogation of Palestinian rights.

[Resistance]

27. I was repeating what was said about Palestinians

and turning the comment around to see if that would seem acceptable.

I know, it's off-topic, but you know how things go around here eh?

:party:

[MikeGalos]

30. Apparently it is

since your pro-PA post is here and the pro-Israel one saying the same with the ethnic groups reversed was deleted.

Of course, that's probably just due to the moderators not getting around to deleting your post so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Resistance]

33. what have I said that is pro-PA?

:shrug:

In any case, there's a huge difference between making one statement on the one hand, then asking if a similar statement would be acceptable on the other hand. I never condoned either one, btw - did you really think that? Wow.

:crazy:

[Darranar]

34. What pro-PA post?

[tinnypriv]

35. pro-PA?

Do tell.

[tinnypriv]

32. Or, another viewpoint, from the Israeli press

Rather than it's cheering section, so it is more credible:

The first test of the efficiency of the fence will be when its construction is completed or nearing completion...it is premature to boast about it. ¹

As for the fence, if your only concern is short-term "security" for Israelis and insecurity for Palestinains, then you can go straight to the data:

Between 1 April 2002 and 1 December 2002 17 suicide attacks entered through the Green Line from Samaria. These terrorist attacks killed 89 Israelis and wounded 475. Between the dates of 1 January 2003 and November 10 2003 there were 8 suicide attacks, killing 51 and wounding 255.

For more, see exerpt.²


-----

1. op-ed, B. Michael, Yediot Aharonot, 27 Feb 2004.
2. cf. 'Separation Fence has reduced number of casualties by a factor of 20', Ma'ariv, 11 Nov 2003:

"The Separation Fence has saved the lives of dozens of Israelis - according to the first data presented by the Ministry of Defense. IDF Chief of Planning Maj.Gen Giora Eiland said before a closed forum today that between the areas of Hadera and Afulla during one month last year, there were 59 casualties due to attacks. This is compared to three during the corresponding period this year, after the construction of the fence. The data shows an amazing reduction of casualties - a factor of 20 ... In addition, between 1 April 2002 and 1 December 2002 17 suicide attacks entered through the Green Line from Samaria. These terrorist attacks killed 89 Israelis and wounded 475. Between the dates of 1 January 2003 and November 10 2003 there were 8 suicide attacks, killing 51 and wounding 255 ... Even though the fence is partial, it means it has already saved dozens of Israeli lives and hundreds of wounded ... (Also), the majority of Palestinian suicide attackers halted from entering Israel have said in interrogations that they attempt to go south "until there is no fence". From this point of view, the record of the barrier has proved itself as a physical impediment" (Hebrew)

[Comadreja]

36. Prohetic words on wall in 1923

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in a position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs..." Vladimir Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall, 1923.