Blaming Israel for child bombers?

[drdon326]

So how did an 11--year-old walk into Israel with a bomb in his bag? According to official PA sources, "...the intelligence services of the occupying authorities were the authors, directors and the organizers of the script....As was coming home from school he was stopped by soldiers, who placed part of a rifle in his bag together with hand grenades and gas bombs, and then made the boy stand by his open bag so the weapons would be seen .... "

The PA story says that Israeli intelligence collaborators "played with" the mind of 16-year-old Hussam Abdo of Nablus so he would blow himself up. He was caught with an explosive belt March 24 and safely disarmed by Israeli soldiers.

Not only did Israel arrange the would-be suicide mission, according to this revisionist history, but it cleverly manipulated world media to make sure the event received maximum publicity.

SNIP

And the PA allegations go a step further. According to an account in the official PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Israel goes out of its way to publicize the use of children as suicide bombers - not just to discredit the PA, but to encourage more Palestinian children to blow themselves up.

"The occupation in this situation and with this lie, is playing with its own blood, and it is like they are encouraging children to go from stone-throwing to use of explosives.... Israel's focusing accusations about children is in fact an open invitation to other children to imitate the accusations, because it is characteristic of children to blindly imitate." .

http://www.pmw.org.il/new/


==================================================================
More shameless lies by the PA/PLO.

[Proudlib]

1. Why Not?

Israel gets blamed for everything else. If there is one thing I can always count on, it's the PA/PLO never taking responsibility for the condition the people it's supposed be governing are in. And the other thing I can always count on is that many of the supporters of the PA/PLO here will never hold it accountable either, nor will they hold the Palestinians responsible for their own behavior. We'll get the usual justifications, obfuscations, rationalizations, and anything but a condemnation whenever the next suicide bomb goes off. And that will be followed by the usual posts calling the IDF a "terrorist organization" yadda yadda yadda so the attention will be deflected away from the latest barbaric act of mass murder that has nothing to do with nation building or self-defense, and the supporters of the Palestinians can spend the rest of the thread talking about how evil and awful the Israelis are and how they are "terrorists" because they don't fight Hamas, Al Asqua and the rest by Duke of Queensberry rules.

And we can expect the kinds of posts I described above by the supporters of the PA/PLO in pretty short order.

[Proudlib]

2. I Forgot To Mention

Seeing as though Israel can be blamed for anything and everything, the Reds are blaming Israel for losing the Cubs in extra innings last night. They were so upset about the brutal occupation that they couldn't concentrate on hitting which is why they only scored one run, and reliever Will Cunnane was so outraged over the actions of that terrorist organization, the IDF, that his control and velocity were affected resulting him giving up the game winning run in the 15th inning.

See, it's all Israel's fault.

[tinnypriv]

3. Here's a challenge

Try naming one of these "supporters of the PA/PLO".

[drdon326]

4. (cue in Jeopardy theme song)

Alex, what is against the rules ??

Now what do you think of the article??

[Proudlib]

5. I Have To Blame Israel

I was so outraged over the terrorist actions of Israel that I typed "Reds" instead of "Braves".

See, it's all Israel's fault.

[tinnypriv]

6. Well, in my opinion

It would just be easier to admit that there are no "supporters of the PA/PLO" here.

There are certainly harsh critics of the PA and their PLO component, even if you exclude from that category the "pro-Israel" hypocrites.

BTW, the above admission would have two added advantages:

1) Honesty
2) Accuracy

The only other option as far as I can see is to continue with the transparant falsehoods, pretensions, childish hints, tantrums etc.

As for what I think of the article, it's difficult to comment in light of the fact that I have no access to the papers cited, nor any way of checking that the quotes given by PMW are in context, accurate etc.

But, I'll put that aside, and assume that every word is in context, and is accurate, and the article is written by two saints who have never crossed a "t" or dotted a lower-case j incorrectly in their life. In the event of those assumptions being in place, there are a few simple points & conclusions:

1. The "official PA sources" (unnamed, but again, put that aside) quoted from Al-Hayat Al-Jadida are liars and idiots.

2. Those same sources make one accurate comment despite their status as obvious liars (turned into an "accusation" by PMW): Israel did "put pressure on the foreign journalists to focus on the incident". That's actually admitted by Israel, and even if it wasn't, the facts are obvious enough and such "pressure" is openly called for in Israel.

3. Since the article is supposedly referring specifically to "child bombers", the references to Mohammed Al-Dura, the textbooks, and the "message" from Arafat are all obviously irrelevant, since they deal with deaths caused by Israel or by the conflict itself and/or exploitation/justification after the fact.

4. The naming of soccer tournaments and summer camps after terrorists is despicable behaviour, to be unreservedly condemned. This is true even if the naming only refers to the deaths of the martyrs, and not their actions (quite plausibly the case).

Regardless of the above, the article retains hypocrisy of the usual sort, with the constant allusions (and direct references in other articles by these authors) to the "praising" of terrorism, or the "lauding" of terrorism, or the "glorification" of terrorism - i.e. acts such as naming soccer tournaments after terrorists, naming camps/streets after terrorists, "failing to condemn" terrorism (or "distance" from it) etc etc. The familiar litany.

What goes unmentioned, is the exact parallel all this has to the Zionist national movement and formative years of the state of Israel.

Without going too deep into the history, there a few things worth pointing out.

1. Naming of soccer tournaments. Three words: Beitar Jerusalem FC. Close connections to terrorist movements, Herut, Begin, Shamir, and the rest. I see no call to rename them, nor will there be. I assume this takes care of the unique evil of the Arabs, who even go so far as to bring "soccer" under their terrorist wing. Yeah, just like the Jewish state.

2. Naming of national institutions, camps, streets etc. after terrorists. As I said, "despicable behaviour", but hardly unique. Israel had already done this decades before any Palestinian even thought about strapping a bomb to himself. Take for example the case of Deir Yassin, where a Jewish town now sits - streets there are named after units from the Irgun Tsvai Leumi, which carried about the massacre. In addition to this naming, Israel also produces official commemorative items honouring terrorists - say, the murderers of Lord Moyne, the international terrorists hanged in Egypt, etc (in both cases, stamps and trinkets). As for national institutions, the Jewish Agency used to be run by a convicted Jewish terrorist. There are numerous other cases that could be cited.

3. The "praising" of terrorism, or the "lauding" of terrorism, or the "glorification" of terrorism. To pick one (illustrative) case, if this is a crime (which indeed it is), the current Prime Minister of Israel is guilty of it. For example, take his defense of a cold-blooded terrorist killer:

"I want to say: it is unfortunate that there are no more men like him, with his loyalty, his love for the country." ¹

Or take Yitzhak Shamir:

"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war ... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle ... First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier."

4. "Failing to condemn" terrorism. Again, wrong, though nothing new. Take the stance of David Ben-Gurion¹ on being asked to condemn Jewish terrorist activities:

"The (Jewish) Executive considers the policy at present by the Mandatory Government ... to be primarily responsible for the tragic situation which has developed in Palestine. The Executive cannot agree that it can in fairness be called upon to appear in the invidious position of assisting the enforcement of that policy."

One could perhaps understand this position, though it surely has no moral content. So unlike the evil Arabs, who are supposed to spend every hour of every day lamenting the crimes of their own national movement, as demanded by hypocrites like Itamar Marcus. Instead - shock horror- they focus on the crimes of Israel or the occupation, and make justifications while evading the crimes. The fraudulent nature of those evasions is well understood in the case of enemies (Arabs), but obviously incomprehensible when looking in the mirror.


So, what did I think of the article? You work it out.

-----

1. The first president of Israel (Weizmann) is of course another example.

2. The cold-blooded terrorist killer in question is Meir Hartsion, who headed a group which carried out a cross-border raid into Jordan in order to knife to death 5 defenseless Bedouin (in "revenge" for the death of his sister). "Revenge" is in quotes because the killers were promptly arrested by the Jordanian authorities and the Bedouin had no known (or even plausible) connection to the crime (conceeded and known at once by Sharon and the IDF). Note that this example of course does not address Sharon's direct involvement and participation in other terrorist atrocities, just his moral position on terrorist acts carried out by others.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

7. thou hath layeth the smack downeth

I anticipate the equally insightful retort with bated breath

props

B

[drdon326]

8. Well......

Thanks for the long answer.....you certainly get your "moneys-worth"
when asking you a question. But we'll break it down. Btw , sadly I never learned to use italics so you'll forgive me.

"It would just be easier to admit that there are no "supporters of the PA/PLO" here.

There are certainly harsh critics of the PA and their PLO component, even if you exclude from that category the "pro-Israel" hypocrites.

BTW, the above admission would have two added advantages:

1) Honesty
2) Accuracy
The only other option as far as I can see is to continue with the transparent falsehoods, pretensions, childish hints, tantrums etc."

{Then we may be reading different threads because rather than "support" the pa/plo I see often-if not more- bashing of Israel
to attempt to find moral equivalency.And getting back to your original point,we both know calling out someone IS against the rules.}


"As for what I think of the article, it's difficult to comment in light of the fact that I have no access to the papers cited, nor any way of checking that the quotes given by PMW are in context, accurate etc.

But, I'll put that aside, and assume that every word is in context, and is accurate, and the article is written by two saints who have never crossed a "t" or dotted a lower-case j incorrectly in their life. In the event of those assumptions being in place, there are a few simple points & conclusions:
1. The "official PA sources" (unnamed, but again, put that aside) quoted from Al-Hayat Al-Jadida are liars and idiots."

{A KINDLY EVALUATION...TO SAY THE LEAST. A more honest appraisal would be they are part of the relentless propaganda machine the I
have documented ad nauseum. And given your obvious education,I would have hoped you would have realized that.}

"2. Those same sources make one accurate comment despite their status as obvious liars (turned into an "accusation" by PMW): Israel did "put pressure on the foreign journalists to focus on the incident". That's actually admitted by Israel, and even if it wasn't, the facts are obvious enough and such "pressure" is openly called for in Israel."

{possibly true...but for the wrong reason...assuming it was true, I have no doubt the IDF want foreign journalists around to deter any
suicide attacks, The last thing the jihadofascists want is bad press. It would not surprise me if if this is one of many deterrent factors as well as others.}

"3. Since the article is supposedly referring specifically to "child bombers", the references to Mohammed Al-Dura, the textbooks, and the "message" from Arafat are all obviously irrelevant, since they deal with deaths caused by Israel or by the conflict itself and/or exploitation/justification after the fact."

{wow...thats the most disingenuous statement i've ever read.If you truly believe that Arafat's leadership(I have posted multiple articles
where he exhorts children to strive to be martyrs)and textbooks that
breed antisemitism are not part of this increase of acceptance
and use of children,then I wonder whether you've seen those articles or discount them or whether thats the most oblivious statement to the facts I have ever seen. I'm still in shock re-reading it.}

"4. The naming of soccer tournaments and summer camps after terrorists is despicable behaviour, to be unreservedly condemned. This is true even if the naming only refers to the deaths of the martyrs, and not their actions (quite plausibly the case).
Regardless of the above, the article retains hypocrisy of the usual sort, with the constant allusions (and direct references in other articles by these authors) to the "praising" of terrorism, or the "lauding" of terrorism, or the "glorification" of terrorism - i.e. acts such as naming soccer tournaments after terrorists, naming camps/streets after terrorists, "failing to condemn" terrorism (or "distance" from it) etc etc. The familiar litany."

{not sure where to begin....Well we do agree...(it "is despicable behavior, to be unreservedly condemned")...finally. The "familiar litany" that you deplore is part of the seemingly endless culture of death that you have specifically chosen to downplay. I can't imagine
why.}

"What goes unmentioned, is the exact parallel all this has to the Zionist national movement and formative years of the state of Israel.
Without going too deep into the history, there a few things worth pointing out.

1. Naming of soccer tournaments. Three words: Beitar Jerusalem FC. Close connections to terrorist movements, Herut, Begin, Shamir, and the rest. I see no call to rename them, nor will there be. I assume this takes care of the unique evil of the Arabs, who even go so far as to bring "soccer" under their terrorist wing. Yeah, just like the Jewish state."

(and I'm sure you were hoping for a team named 'Baruch Goldstein' to further your theory....sorry}

"2. Naming of national institutions, camps, streets etc. after terrorists. As I said, "despicable behaviour", but hardly unique. Israel had already done this decades before any Palestinian even thought about strapping a bomb to himself. Take for example the case of Deir Yassin, where a Jewish town now sits - streets there are named after units from the Irgun Tsvai Leumi, which carried about the massacre. In addition to this naming, Israel also produces official commemorative items honouring terrorists - say, the murderers of Lord Moyne, the international terrorists hanged in Egypt, etc (in both cases, stamps and trinkets). As for national institutions, the Jewish Agency used to be run by a convicted Jewish terrorist. There are numerous other cases that could be cited."

{Here we go again...using names from 50 years ago during Israels Independence AGAIN attempts to MITIGATE the immoral acts of suicide
bombers is really beneath you and adds nothing to the facts. I had
hoped you wouldn't try to show MORAL EQUIVALENCY between the two.
I have to ask....do you REALLY believe its the same??}

""
"3. The "praising" of terrorism, or the "lauding" of terrorism, or the "glorification" of terrorism. To pick one (illustrative) case, if this is a crime (which indeed it is), the current Prime Minister of Israel is guilty of it. For example, take his defense of a cold-blooded terrorist killer:
"I want to say: it is unfortunate that there are no more men like him, with his loyalty, his love for the country." 1
Or take Yitzhak Shamir:
"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war ... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle ... First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier.""

{well how far back do you wish to go back?? Certainly the were innocent victims during Israel's war of Independence but to equate the two fails to take into account many things...including..

Israels Independence was 99% against military targets and lord knows the palestinians are not.

Israel had no one to negotiate with and initially were offered nothing.. the Palestinians have had multiple offers in an attempt to
settle the differences ,putting ASIDE whether you like them or not,
and have chosen instead to resort to violence.

but you knew that already}




"4. "Failing to condemn" terrorism. Again, wrong, though nothing new. Take the stance of David Ben-Gurion1 on being asked to condemn Jewish terrorist activities:
"The (Jewish) Executive considers the policy at present by the Mandatory Government ... to be primarily responsible for the tragic situation which has developed in Palestine. The Executive cannot agree that it can in fairness be called upon to appear in the invidious position of assisting the enforcement of that policy."
One could perhaps understand this position, though it surely has no moral content. So unlike the evil Arabs, who are supposed to spend every hour of every day lamenting the crimes of their own national movement, as demanded by hypocrites like Itamar Marcus. Instead - shock horror- they focus on the crimes of Israel or the occupation, and make justifications while evading the crimes. The fraudulent nature of those evasions is well understood in the case of enemies (Arabs), but obviously incomprehensible when looking in the mirror."

{ I cant go thru your ideas of moral equivalency again....see above}


"So, what did I think of the article? You work it out."

{ i think the problem is, as i have noted from your previous posts
and now this, is you wish to find parallels between the israels Independence and the current state of the Palestinians. Putting aside
my belief that might be your away of mitigating the atrocities perpetuated by the Palestinians against innocent Israelis-and that includes jewish israelis,christian israels and yes, muslim israelis-
I believe there are no parallels between the two.

And getting back to the original article, when the Israelis start using 12 to 16 year olds as death-delivering terrorist-deceived
hatred-filled suicide bombers you may have a case to make.
Funny how thats NOT going to happen.....but you know that also.}

[tinnypriv]

9. Response

Leaving aside areas of non-relevance, I'll respond to your points.

Then we may be reading different threads because rather than "support" the pa/plo I see often-if not more- bashing of Israel
to attempt to find moral equivalency. And getting back to your original point,we both know calling out someone IS against the rules.

So we agree on something - we don't see "support" for the PA/PLO around here. Exactly my point.

Onto the separate topic of whether or not there is "bashing of Israel to attempt to find moral equivalency", I hardly know how to respond. Putting aside the fact that the term "moral equivalency" was invented by Jeanne Kirkpatrick (a total lunatic), it has zero literal content on its own. What exactly do you mean? It's no good just to throw out "moral equivalency" and assume thats the end of the matter. The term has become the intellectual equivalent (no pun intended) of a swear word. If I said I see lots of "conspiracy theories" around here, would you know what threads or people I was referring to? Of course not. Same in this case.

As for "calling somebody out" being against the rules, that's for the mods to decide. If indeed it is (I don't think so, since this would be addressing the arguments of people, not just people), then the obvious thing for honest people to do would be to stop with the childish hints, because specifics are impossible.

A KINDLY EVALUATION...TO SAY THE LEAST. A more honest appraisal would be they are part of the relentless propaganda machine the I have documented ad nauseum. And given your obvious education,I would have hoped you would have realized that

I don't think so. Doubtless they would like to be part of a "relentless propaganda machine" (hence "liars"), but that is just not the case. Do you see any of these points (i.e. Israel being responsible, planting weapons etc) entering the western media? Any? Of course not. To compare the Israeli hasbara apparatus with the pathetic attempts of the Palestinians is just not being in the real world.

That is not to say that they're not trying to be more effective propagandists, but they're obviously not succeeding. Why? Because they're idiots - like I said.

As for "documenting" this, that is the job of PMW, not you. If you speak Arabic, fair enough - you can evaluate their claims on your own. Instead, you have to take every word of theirs at face value. That's not to say PMW isn't telling the truth 100% of the time, but I see no way to know one way or the other, and given the assumptions in their articles (i.e. not giving the right of response, suppression of Israeli parallels), I'm not sure I want to take every word at face value. If you do, fair enough.

wow...thats the most disingenuous statement i've ever read.If you truly believe that Arafat's leadership(I have posted multiple articles where he exhorts children to strive to be martyrs)and textbooks that breed antisemitism are not part of this increase of acceptance and use of children,then I wonder whether you've seen those articles or discount them or whether thats the most oblivious statement to the facts I have ever seen. I'm still in shock re-reading it.

I didn't say that they are not "part of this increase of acceptance and use of children".

I said that they are irrelevant to the specific point of the article: child bombers alone. The use of children could be simple resistance, or terror operations without suicide bombings, or military defense of Palestinian towns, etc. Or they could be child bombings.

Nobody sane is arguing that the culture of acceptance of children as military objects does not lead to the increase of their use in suicide attacks - certainly not me. Also, nobody sane is arguing that the textbooks (which you or I have not read, so we should have the courtesy not to comment) don't contribute to hostility toward Jews.

But all of this is beside the point - the tacit point weaving through your argument (and that of PMW) is that it's Arafat who causes terror through his statements, or the textbooks that cause terror through their words, or the PA TV through images, etc etc.

Of course they do contribute, but that is not such an astounding insight, nor should it be the main focus of anybody concerned about this trend in the Palestinian national movement (honest concern is about 000000.1% of anybody who says anything).

What should be the main focus? Well, I have some suggestions:

How about children seeing their family members beaten and humiliated by the IDF? Or seeing pieces of their friends on the sidewalk thanks to an IDF "mystery weapon" test-fired on them? Or the total destruction all around them? Or the constant degradation and humiliation of their culture by the occupiers of their land? Or the economic disaster wrecking any of their hopes for the future? Or the closing of their schools at some whim of the military? Or the corruption of the PA and their national institutions? Or the militarization of their society as a reaction to the all pervasive terror they've been suffering as an entire people for decades? Or the way they get the lash regardless of whether they resist non-violently or not?

Take your pick. Or maybe it is just because of the textbooks.

and I'm sure you were hoping for a team named 'Baruch Goldstein' to further your theory....sorry

Not really - the terrorist forces I mentioned (say, Shamir/LEHI, Irgun, Herut etc) were worse than Goldstein. Take a look at their history sometime - they take pride in murdering over 70 Arabs in one month alone, just for sheer terror.

That's not a "theory" - just fact.

Here we go again...using names from 50 years ago during Israels Independence AGAIN attempts to MITIGATE the immoral acts of suicide bombers is really beneath you and adds nothing to the facts. I had hoped you wouldn't try to show MORAL EQUIVALENCY between the two. I have to ask....do you REALLY believe its the same?

Is what the same? Naming national and cultural institutions after terrorists? Of course it is. Like I said (accurately). I don't say that particularly critically - it's the same with every national movement, including my own. Why would the Palestinians be any different? The Jewish people weren't and aren't.

As for "mitigating" immoral acts of suicide bombers by pointing this out, I could claim (this is conditional, I don't do this) you're mitigating Jewish terrorist atrocities by pointing out that the Arabs have used terror. That'd be ridiculous, and the same point holds in this case.

As for "50 years ago", I don't think you know exactly what I'm referring to. The commemorative items were approved for release by the Israeli cabinet in 1982 - most of that cabinet (or close to it) is actually in positions of power right now (say, Peres, Sharon, Mofaz), so it is very relevant.

Also, the naming of the streets in Deir Yassin was only completed about 15 years ago, and the head of the Jewish Agency I mentioned (his name is Lahis, in case you want to check it out), was in charge up until the early 80's. Again, very recent history, and there are more recent cir-1990's/2000's cases that could be mentioned. I only mention these because they are illustrative.

Israels Independence was 99% against military targets

No it wasn't, as you'd discover if you checked the history. You can be directed to it if you like.

well how far back do you wish to go back

As I said, current Prime Minister of Israel. Are you going to claim his terrorist history is irrelevant? If so, I assume you'll discount everything Arafat did up until 5 minutes ago.

Israel had no one to negotiate with and initially were offered nothing.. the Palestinians have had multiple offers in an attempt to settle the differences ,putting ASIDE whether you like them or not, and have chosen instead to resort to violence

Not entirely inaccurate, but a mostly fanciful version of the history I'm afraid.

In any case, the "resort to violence" is praised by the current PM of Israel, as I said, accurately. You ignored the specific cases I mentioned with transparent evasion, instead preferring to throw your hands up in the air and become a world-weary cynic. If you mentioned the Passover terrorist bombing to a (mythical, at least here) "pro-PA" supporter, and they responded with "that's all in the past", and "it was needed for the national movement" whilst only admitting that "yes, there were some (unnamed) innocent victims" etc, what would you say?

I presume the evasion is obvious in the case of the enemy, but not when looking in the mirror.

i think the problem is, as i have noted from your previous posts and now this, is you wish to find parallels between the israels Independence and the current state of the Palestinians.

I don't "wish" to find - I do find parallels because they exist.

Putting aside my belief that might be your away of mitigating the atrocities perpetuated by the Palestinians against innocent Israelis-and that includes jewish israelis,christian israels and yes, muslim israelis- I believe there are no parallels between the two.

Stating that I wish to "mitigate" any atrocity is slander, but putting that aside, you can "believe" that there are "no parallels", but that is living in a dream world (as the examples I've given illustrate, with crystal-clear precision).

And getting back to the original article, when the Israelis start using 12 to 16 year olds as death-delivering terrorist-deceived hatred-filled suicide bombers you may have a case to make.

I certainly hope that never happens, but some rabid anti-Semite defending suicide bombings could say:

"When the Palestinians start surrounding Tel Aviv, blaring out sounds of death, then advancing on the city, butchering and slaughtering some of the inhabitants while driving out the rest in order to cleanse the area of Jews and clear the way for Arabs, you may have a case to make."

Or,

"When the Palestinians send in death-squads to Holon, to dynamite Jewish civilian houses on top of the inhabitants while raking the women and children with gunfire, then lying about it and promoting the perpetrator to the highest office in the Palestinian government, you may have a case to make."

Again, the obvious evasion of the crime of suicide-bombing would be transparent, even though these cases are non-hypothetical. Same in this case.

I prefer non-evasion, and condemnation of all terrorist atrocities, whoever the perpetrators. But that's just me.

[tinnypriv]

10. I should add

I appreciate the honesty (I'm sure you're thrilled) of you at least addressing the topic and the post you're responding to, which is not often the case around here (on either "side" - witness the constant "Rachel Corrie" interruptions in threads dealing with Palestinian terror).