First off, considering the context of the discussion, before responding to each of your points I will list the points or observations you did not respond to in your reply. I'll assume the reason for that is either:
a) tacit acceptance your previous assertions were incorrect or
b) an unwillingness to address them, for whatever reason.
1. You failed to answer the question of whether the Indonesian courts are appropriate forum for East Timorese, instead preferring non-specific evasion.
To quote:
"If you live under the authority of certain entities, including courts, whether it is right, or wrong, you should adjust yourself to the reality of them".
Fair enough - so are the Indonesian courts the appropriate forum for East Timorese or not? Considering your previous lamentations about "complexity" and the ease of simple discussions, you seem to be indulging in a long-winded, generalised answer("entities", "authority", "right
or wrong", "reality") in response to a simple question. I can only guess the reason for that is that you do not wish to apply your insights to real world situations - understandable, since that would betray complete contempt for the East Timorese, and nobody wants to do that in public.
2. You stated: "there are dozens of resolutions against the Israeli 'occupation', and damn all against Palestinian terrorism".
I responded: "there are resolutions condemning all terrorism and a recent one condemning Palestinian terrorism specifically". Clearly your statement was false, if my statement (which you ignored) was correct, which indeed it was. For documentation, consult S/RES/1435, which states:
"Condemning all terrorist attacks against any civilians, including the terrorist bombings in Israel on 18 and 19 September 2002 ... (The Security Council) reiterates its demand for the complete cessation of all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction"
This is by no means the only UN resolution to condemn "terrorist bombings", including some which mention suicide attacks specifically. Say, S/RES/1402, which expresses "its grave concern at the further deterioration of the situation, including the recent suicide bombings in Israel".
With the above taken into account, I'll respond to your answer.
Now where did you get such a silly idea as that. I recognize the distinction, I just thin that it is a joke also. Why on earth do I care what the various dictators, genocidal monsters, corrupt crooks, and other various malefactors that form the basis of 'international opinion" think?
You seem to be under the impression that the UN is filled with "various dictators, monsters, crooks, and malefactors". Not only that, but that they "form the basis of international opinion". Now, this might be a common refrain among hawkish Israeli and U.S. partisans, but that doesn't make it any more true. In fact, for future reference, you should assume such statements are lies, until demonstrated otherwise.
For the facts, the UN actually has a majority of either democracies or developing democracies. That is even putting aside the fact that international law in terms of borders is based on treaties (accepted by all), and makes no provision regarding the internal structure of the state
within those borders. Nor should it, since that is a matter for other instruments of international legislation, public pressure, internal struggle, etc.
why do you, for that matter. We are different cultures, and have different ideas about things, including right and wrong. I would venture to guess that my opinion is a valid as theirs, and I do not see that I should change my opinion on the basis of the votes of people with whom I have nothing in common.
I doubt you have "nothing" in common with the rest of humanity. I would wager you have a great deal in common. Of course, you should make your own decisions about matters - I'm not sure where I ever stated otherwise, and fail to see how I could have given that impression.
Sure they did. That's why Germany is smaller than it was before Hitler came to power. That's why Tibet is a free and independent country http://www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz/occu.html. That's why Lithuania became a part of the late, lamented Soviet Union.
Putting aside the "lamented" slur, none of the above has any bearing whatsoever on the matter at hand: the
rejection in international law of the concept of conquest of territory by force. The fact that territory has been conquered in spite of the illegality is another topic - enforcement.
A lot of mistakes were made after WW2. One of the biggest, IMO, is during de-colonization it was decided that the colonial boundaries were sacrosanct. So a lot of people that hated each others guts were placed together in the same nation. I think a lot of poor, bleeding Africa's problems stem from this.
Borders are not "sacrosanct". They can be changed by talks, mutual consent etc as long as those talks are
recognised as legitimate by the international community. Take the creation of Israel - it is only a state because other nations recognised it to be so. There are many other cases.
We can agree about Africa, though I fail to see why we should discuss it, or anything related to what you said, since it is plainly irrelevant. If Africans want to mutually change their borders, and we recognise that, fair enough. If some African state wants to conquer more territory by force, we should reject that. The same principles hold in the Middle East.
The fact that the existing system is not perfect does not mean that the states and actors in the existing system do not have rights. This is so obvious as to be virtually a logical necessity.
At the minimum, the observation is worth the fact that a lot of people are hypocrites. Now I don't care, myself, if they are. Hypocrisy is the single most over-rated vice, IMO. We are all hypocrites about something. What it is, and why we are hypocrites about it determine whether it is a misdemeanor or a felony, so to speak.
Sure, but if you don't care, you should probably cease making the observation.
Israel is not trying to enslave the Palestinian population, but to survive.
The point was a hypothetical one, and if anybody is trying to "survive", it is the Palestinians, who have already experienced the disaster that Israelis fear (though the fear is exaggerated, given the comparative power of Israel).
The Palestinians have shown over and over that they cannot be trusted.
As have the Israelis, the Americans, the Chinese, in fact, every government or liberation movement in history. So what?
If Israel picked up tomorrow and withdrew to the 1967 borders, the violence would not cease, because their own state on the West Bank and Gaza is not what they want.
I see.
You determine what "they" want, and opinion polls, personal testimony, decisions of the leadership - in fact, all evidence to the contrary - is irrelevant?
Here we see the wonder of political orthodoxy - the conclusions are required, so are true, by definition.
Hence, according to your argument, if the Palestinians express their willingness to have open borders and mutual recognition with Israel, full peace treaties, demilitarization next to one of the most powerful states on earth and the like, they're don't
really want that. They
actually (whatever the facts) want the destruction of Israel.
They want the total destruction of Israel. It is not necessary to listen to the self-justifications of such people.
And high officials in the Israeli leadership have already achieved the destruction of most of Palestine, and want to destroy what is left. Moreover, this opinion is considered a legitimate position within Israel. Therefore, the rights of Jews (or "such people") are abrogated?
Yeah?? When did human nature change? I must have missed that headline. Who is going to enforce this? The UN?
Putting aside the tantrum, I can explain my views on enforcement if you like, but again, that has no bearing on the fact that in principle the conquest of territory by force is rejected, without exception, by every state on the planet.
You are arguing that such conquest is legitimate, while
at the same time lamenting that nobody could enforce compliance with UN resolutions on conquest in any event. While the latter is true, given the relations of power in the world, you don't seem to understand that the former contributes a great deal to perpetuating that unacceptable situation in world affairs.
If you decide that conquest is not legitimate, then perhaps you can discuss enforcement. Until then, you should have the decency drop the matter.
Listen, you mentioned enslaving the Palestinian population. Where is slavery rampant today? That would be various Islamic-ruled countries. Places where Christians are kidnapped and sold into slavery. Jews probably would be, too, except there aren't many Jews in these places. Why would that be, do you suppose? Because the Jews were either killed or fled to some place else. Where would that be, do you suppose? And having fled there, do you think the Jews should just give up and die? Well, there are a lot of people who do. But they don't, and I don't suppose pious words about things not tolerated any longer are going to convince them.
Actually, several tens of thousands of Jews live in "Islamic-ruled countries". It is true that a large proportion of Jews do not live in Islamic countries, but that is hardly surprising, given that:
1. The U.S. is not Islamic
2. Neither is Israel
3. Israel is in the Middle East, where most Islamic countries are (not necessarily the same as population, but that is another matter).
The rest of your observations on kidnapping, the internal state of Islamic societies, slavery etc I will address if you provide some evidence for the accusations, rather than a stream of hysterics.
As for pre-1967 Arab attacks not having the intent to destroy Israel..
To quote:
"The only pre-1967 Arab attack on Israel did have the intent of destroying Israel"
I added the italics this time, since you seem to have missed what I wrote in plain english the first time around.
I think, in my previous reply, that I mentioned 'complexity'. But let's not make it more complex by putting irrelevant material into the discussion. So what if intelligence predicted that Israel would win even if attacked first?
This barely rises to the level of hilarity.
In short then, your position is that when I assess claims regarding whether the 'survival' of Israel was at stake in 1967 I should not engage in the heresy of -shock- examining evidence from the Israeli intelligence agencies themselves, nor the army involved in the war, nor even the political leadership's subsequent statements?
Since that is complete nonsense, I can only assume your true objection to all this is my crime of assessing whether or not Israeli (by now actually
U.S.) claims are accurate, insofar as regards the factual and documentary record. Again, political orthodoxy - it is convenient to believe that Israel's survival was at stake, so it was, whatever the facts.
According to you, and I have no reason to doubt you, it would win faster if it struck first. So, in order to assure its survival it should, and did. Look, even if it wasn't going to be wiped off the map, this time, why should it incur additional casualties to spare its enemies??
So, "even if it wasn't going to be wiped off the map", Israel should have "struck first", to "assure its survival".
A logic problem arises - if it was not going to be "wiped off the map" (which is the case), how could it be that the pre-emptive strike "assured" the survival of Israel, given that survival was not as stake (as admitted by everyone sane).
And, what is wrong with looking at the long-term picture? The Palestinians want to destroy Israel.
And that has precisely what to do with attacking Egypt, Jordan and Syria?
You could at least pretend to be serious by bringing in the (pathetic) cross-border attacks by the PLO at the time, though if you did, that talking point could be roundly demolished as well.
I don't know that the 97% is a lie.
Okay, let's see a map.
I do know that the Palestinians claim it is less, but they are including Israel in their calculations as part of 'Palestine'.
Actually, everyone claims it is less, including Barak, and the Palestinians did nothing of the sort.
Yeah, I believe that a nation can lose territory based on the decisions of its leadership.
Okay, but since the territory in question had no "leadership" beyond Jordan, the point is irrelevant.
Territory is not the same as human rights. I also believe that in time of war, rights will get suspended.
Fair enough, though that is barely relevant to the matters under discussion.
'Legitimate'?? What the hell is that, anyway. Whether or not the are de jure, they are de facto.
What the hell is that? Well, the word you used, for a start:
"..the Israeli courts are the legitimate courts to take this to"
If you want to withdraw that statement, go ahead, though I think it is a bit rich to denounce me for quoting you.
Throwing a stone is not "assault"????? What are you smoking? Don't play word games. You cannot possibly be serious.
If you want to pretend stone throwing is assault, fair enough. Here is a quick game:
Is throwing a stone at a tank "assault"?
If not, you might want to withdraw your definitions, and re-read mine, since the latter are accurate, and the former have internal contradiction, as I said.
Maximum sentence for throwing stones?? at somebody? 10 years. OK?
Well, that'd put the entire Palestinian population in an Israeli jail, but if you say so ;-)
If attacked with deadly force, and I assure you that being 'assaulted' with a large rock or a brick IS deadly force, then yes, it can be met with even deadlier force.
Why a ten year sentence (above) if the offense is punishable by death?
Internal contradiction again. In any case, I asked you if deadly force should be used
if there is no threat to life. You've failed to answer this. I can only assume that you actually believe stone-throwing in of itself merits a quick death. Okay, I'm not sure many will agree with that, but its your dime.
No one should have to put up with a rock on the head for a minute. did you know that often the Palestinians throw those rocks with slings? Probably not.
Yeah, I usually comment on matters I know nothing about.
For the facts, the slings were used because the occupation forces would often shoot to maim via sniper scopes at long distances with impunity - for sport (as alleged), intimidation, etc. As is understandable, the people on the other end of the club did not see fit to rejoice in this, and attempted to compensate. Of course, that resulted in further brutality, but that is hardly their fault, since brutality is the consequence, whatever their actions.
500 yards away is a long way. Which incident was this child killed in?? Do you have a link?
The child case was hypothetical - perhaps that was not obvious. For the incident, see below.
Were there other people, perhaps this child's loving father, shooting at the Israels at the same time? Was it possibly accidental?
Well, I can only tell you the way Israeli military correspondents look at it. To quote Alex Fishman from
Yediot Aharonot:
'Warning shots' that were fired from a distance of 500 meters (!!) with a machinegun. The Palestinian was killed. The officer who did the shooting was indicted on two counts: causing death by negligence and the illegal use of a weapon. He was given a suspended sentence and had his promotion stalled.
The (!!) appear in the Hebrew. The article in an in-depth look at IDF investigations that occur after shootings of Palestinians, Internationals, etc. Title: "Poorly investigated, Forgotten, and Buried". Link can be provided if you want to read the entire thing (basically concludes the investigations are joke, and politically motivated).
Internal contradiction my ass!! When you have run out of valid arguments, do you always try distraction? Inquiring minds want to know!!! I left the quotes off because it was a typographical error, OK?
There was no criticism implied, and I wrote that I "assumed" you meant the opposite.
As for your comments about Russia invading the US. Once they had established themselves here, we would HAVE to obey, or pay the price.
Not sure many Israelis would agree with that with regards to a Syrian invasion, but fair enough.
It might not be right, but it would be. And this is really what I find most objectionable about the Palestinian cause. They rage and murder, but they accomplish nothing. So they should stop, act like grown-ups, and try to get what they can peacefully.
They accomplish nothing because the west invents fanciful lies to justify oppressing them and stealing their land - some of which you've repeated. Unless that is stopped, we have no business telling them how to resist that oppression - in fact, such advice should be dismissed with contempt.