Were Abu Ghraib abuses learned from Israel? Palestinians think so, but Sh

[Classical_Liberal]

Were Abu Ghraib abuses learned from Israel?
Palestinians think so, but Shin Bet interrogators scoff at U.S. methods

Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service
Sunday, June 27, 2004

Jerusalem -- Palestinians who have spent time in Israeli detention say the images of sexual abuse and humiliation from Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison are painful reminders of their own experience at the hands of Israeli interrogators.

Some, like Hisham Abdel Razzaq, the Palestinian minister for prisoners, believe the similarity is more than coincidental.

"I am inclined to think that the Americans copied the Israeli techniques, " said Abdel Razzaq. "I can't prove it in an objective manner, but the striking similarities are overwhelming."

But veterans of Israel's Shin Bet secret service, which conducts most of the country's anti-terrorist investigations, scoff at such charges and say sexual humiliation of the type seen in photos from Abu Ghraib is not even a useful tool in interrogating suspects. ........

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/27/MNGMM7CTSF1.DTL

[The Magistrate]

1. This, Ma'am

Has got to be the silliest bit of propagandist's stretch currently on offer. Clearly, if something bad has been done, it must be possible to blame Israel for it somehow. This article, and various permutations of the same idea, have appeared a half dozen times in various venues on Democratic Underground within the last week. The idea that the U.S. Army needs to learn how to abuse prisoners from anyone, let alone an upstart bunch like the Israelis, is laughable.

[lefty_mcduff]

3. Laughable? They're not the only ones making this argument...

<from article>

And let's cast our eyes upon that little, all-important matter of responsibility. The actual interrogators accused of encouraging U.S. troops to abuse Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib jail were working for at least one company with extensive military and commercial contacts with Israel. The head of an American company whose personnel are implicated in the Iraqi tortures, it now turns out, attended an "anti-terror" training camp in Israel and, earlier this year, was presented with an award by Shaul Mofaz, the right-wing Israeli defense minister.

According to J.P. London's company, CACI International, the visit of London -- sponsored by an Israeli lobby group and including U.S. congressmen and other defense contractors -- was "to promote opportunities for strategic partnerships and joint ventures between U.S. and Israeli defense and homeland security agencies."

The Pentagon and the occupation powers in Iraq insist that only U.S. citizens have been allowed to question prisoners in Abu Ghraib but this takes no account of Americans who may also hold double citizenship. The once secret torture report by U.S. Gen. Antonio Taguba refers to "third country nationals" involved in the mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq.

Taguba mentions Steven Staphanovic and John Israel as involved in the abuses at Abu Ghraib. Staphanovic, who worked for CACI -- known to the U.S. military as "Khaki" -- was said by Taguba to have "allowed and/or instructed MPs (military police), who were not trained in interrogation techniques, to facilitate interrogations by 'setting conditions' ... he clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse." One of Staphanovic's co-workers, Joe Ryan -- who was not named in the Taguba report -- now says he underwent an "Israeli interrogation course" before going to Iraq

<snip>

http://www.thinkingpeace.com/pages/arts2/arts212.html

[Classical_Liberal]

4. Also at the beginning of the war it was reported that Israel would

be advising the US, in the Guardian. Supposedly it was because of Israel's experience and excellent record of handling and making friends with Arabs. LOL.

US special forces teams are already behind the lines inside Syria attempting to kill foreign jihadists before they cross the border, and a group focused on the "neutralisation" of guerrilla leaders is being set up, according to sources familiar with the operations.

"This is basically an assassination programme. That is what is being conceptualised here. This is a hunter-killer team," said a former senior US intelligence official, who added that he feared the new tactics and enhanced cooperation with Israel would only inflame a volatile situation in the Middle East.

"It is bonkers, insane. Here we are - we're already being compared to Sharon in the Arab world, and we've just confirmed it by bringing in the Israelis and setting up assassination teams."

"They are being trained by Israelis in Fort Bragg," a well-informed intelligence source in Washington sa....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1102940,00.html

[Gimel]

6. Yeah

Israel would have to prove that they were on the Moon the entire time of the Gulf War in order to be exonerated.

[Classical_Liberal]

7. The US government has infact recieved training from Israel

on assasination of political opponants as well as urban warfare. There is nothing to disprove. Whether it relates to Abu Ghraib is still is still an open question, and it should be investigated. Needless to say, if it is true it would expose our two peas in a pod approach with Sharon as being pretty dumb. I don't need proof of this but others do.

[The Magistrate]

8. Again, Ma'am, Of Signifigance Only To Propagandist Distortion

The technique of dispatching shootists to areas where they are not expected to be operating to kill irregular leaders is hardly patented by Israel, nor even particularly new. The "Pheonix Program" in Viet Nam is only one more recent example. It would be unsurprising if there was not some consultation with a regional ally in such a matter: Israeli forces do have some expertise in infiltrating Arab societies that U.S. forces certainly lack. It is also likely such consultation would prove of little real use, as Israeli expertise in this is unlikely to travel well, since much of it is derived from intimate contact and knowledge of the culture to be infiltrated, a great pool of people who can speak the language like narives, and have a similar appearance to that of the population to be infiltrated. All of these are rather lacking in U.S. commando forces, who tend to be over-sized, corn-fed types.

Similarly, there is no detail that has emerged about Israeli urban fighting tachniques that is not pretty standanrd military doctrine, and that for some time. Advancing up a street through walls, for instance, rather than on the pavement, is very old, and has occured independently to many forces, ranging from such irregulars as Spanish Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War to various armies, U.S. included, in the Second World War. What the Israeli forces do have some real skill in is contriving an urban advance against irregular forces with a striking minmum of civilian and friendly casualties: a comparison between Israeli actions in Jenin and Russian actions in Grozny, for example, makes this quite clear. This would suggest that advice from Israeli staff on the subject would be a desireable thing, and hardly to be complained of.

The point of this sort of thing remains quite clear; it is an attempt to suggest somehow that all bad things done stem from Israel, since Israel is the moral nadir of the universe, in the eyes of any number of left propagandists. It must, therefore, be the cause, and proved the origin, of anything any country associated with it does of which the propagandist disapproves.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

14. Since it is obvious you didn't read the story

I would suggest you are one not interested in having a disgussion. The story actually presented the side of those who don't believe in this alliance, which you would know if you paid attention. Furthermore I don't believe the Jews killed Jesus. I do believe that that Christian Right(people who do blame Jews for killing Jesus) in this country support everything Israel does, because they think it will bring on the end times, and that AIPAC draws alot of support and power from this alliance, and that is fact. This observation doesn't make me an antisemite. Furthermore the fact that fundies blame Jews for Jesus's death, doesn't mean that those who criticize the Israeli right and their supporters in this country antisemites. The Israeli right are the ones sucking antisemite cock. Not me. This strategy of ignoring the genuine antisemitism of Israel's American allies while we point the finger at the left isn't going to help Israel one bit in the long run.

[The Magistrate]

16. You Have Not Been Called Anything, Ma'am

There has only been some exposition of why a particular critique has such appeal to persons propagandizing against Israel, and gains more footing among audiences of same than it really ought to. If "End Times" Christians, as you say now, support everything the current Israeli government does because they feel this will hasten the Apocalpse, that is a rather different thing than saying that Israel directs U.S. policy through its allies in the Christian right, as you said previously. The distinction is an important one, as the latter is a conspiratorial view that appeals to prejudice, and the former recognizes the independent nature of the activity, however useful it might seem to another party.

[Classical_Liberal]

18. Since the end times christians are directing American foriegn policy

It is no different at all. There is nothing conspiratorial about it. The christian right and the settlers admit it. Certain groups have power in this country out of proportion to their numbers. Fundamentalist Christians do. Right wing Cubans do, and I would add pro-Likud hawks. Most Jews are not pro-Likud hawks. Most American Jews oppose Sharon and are just as ignored as the rest of us. Just because a person is a Jew and Jews have been persecuted in the past,doesn't mean that every accusation of wrong doing against them is false, or antisemitic.

[The Magistrate]

19. Wear It In Good Health, Ma'am

Remember the first rule of holes....

[Classical_Liberal]

20. Where what in good heath

Your insinuations against me, don't qualify as refutations of fact.

[The Magistrate]

22. Where, Ma'am?

"Wherever you go, there you are."

"Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

[Gimel]

13. The reports

The reports of Israeli assistance in training and urban combat techniques are known. But Abu Ghraib is entirely Ashcroft's problem.

Just what is our "two peas in a pod approach with Sharon"?

[Classical_Liberal]

17. We have the same foriegn policy as the Israeli right

. Primarily because of the fundamentalist Christians and the Settlers, are backing each other up.

[Gimel]

21. Not quite

Israel is for Israel as the USA is for the USA. There are overlapping interests, but I don't see it as "the same."

You could also say the the US and England have the same foreign policy in some areas, but they act independently in others. Canada usually follows every foreign policy move of the US, yet it has its own interests.

[Classical_Liberal]

23. Tony Blaire's England does have the same foriegn policy as the US

and the English are rightfully pissed off about it. Yes, the settlers and the fundamentalists have the same interests for now, and it isn't in my interests at all. I have no interest whatso ever in supporting settlements. The settlements are against my interests because they are wrong and make the US look bad. because we fund them. We fund them not because the majority of the American people want to fund them, but because a vocal minority of fundamentalist christians and right wing zionists wants to fund them.

[Gimel]

24. I've heard

That you fund Israel's health system, security fence, IDF actions, citizen's bread and butter, also. So make up your mind. Your small contribution can't be spent in so many places.

The settlements have been a bone of contention between the US and Iseral for years. I don't see that your complaint is justified. If the US were afraid of "looking bad" they need not stop with Israel.

[Classical_Liberal]

25. If we didn't fund Israel in anyway they wouldn't have as much money

for settlements. Their are only 5.8 million of them and if you divid the aid up individually they get over 14,000 dollars a year. IF this weren't the case, it would be much more difficult for them to fund settle,ents.

The settlements haven't been a bone of contention with Israel since Bush got elected and Pelosi rolled over, but they should be.

[The Magistrate]

26. That Seems To Be Some Fuzzy Arithmetic, Ma'am

Off the top of my head, you seem to have just claimed upwards of eighty billion dollars a year is transfered from the U.S. government to Israel. It would be interesting to see some support for that figure....

[Classical_Liberal]

5. Whatever you say!

. Try using facts.

[Gimel]

2. The reader's decision

The decision on whether the methods used in Abu Ghraib were learned from Israel is left up to the reader of this article, but the evidence shows that there is no connection between the two. Obviously the Palestinians will use any event to link the two, and gain something for their own cause from news stories that are making impressions on the world court of public opinion.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. I don't know whether this is true or not

In the grander scheme of things, I really don't care. Whoever came up with the idea to torture detainees in Abu Ghraib or any other facility in Bush's offshore Gulag system, as well as those who approved the scheme, should be put on trial in the US for violating the War Crimes Act of 1996 and, if US courts are unable or unwilling to dispense justice, then an international tribunal should be convened for the purpose.

It doesn't matter whether these methods come from the Israelis or Torquemada. The US is responsible for its own actions and we are responsible for the actions of our government. I want these creeps nailed.

[The Magistrate]

10. Hear Hear, Mr. Rabbit!

There is no doubt whatever these actions are war crimes. The weaseling in the papers circulating in the Justice Department make it quite clear the authors of the policy were well aware of its criminal nature. Otherwise, they would not have engaged in such puerile sophistries to evade the clear letter of the law as they did.

[Gimel]

27. ditto

I agree with your suspicions, and with Mr. Rabbit's statement.

[JohnLocke]

15. Well said!

:toast:

[Proudlib]

28. I Have To Laugh

When I read this article I couldn't help but laugh. I mean, is there NOTHING the Israeli government isn't responsible for?

I can see it now-"Palestinians blame Mary Kate's anorexia on Israel"