Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

[IHateFundies]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/487412.html

A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face. The clergyman ... told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

...

"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks. There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

...

Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain. "I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says. Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

[Duncan Grant]

1. Championship flame bait.

Is it just me or is this place infested today? :shrug:

[sangh0]

18. Divisive wedge issues two weeks before an election

Is it just me or is this place infested today?

No, it was infected yesterday too.

[IHateFundies]

20. if this is a wedge issue, we're in trouble

If Democrats can't take a clear "no spitting on people" position, we're in more trouble that I thought. How would this be a wedge issue? I would think everyone is on the same side on this one. Am I wrong?

[AntiFascist]

21. It SHOULD be a wedge issue....

for Republicans.

[sangh0]

22. That's right - Dems can't take a clear position on "no spitting on people"

Nope, not a wedge issue.

Neither is religion.

[ikojo]

2. I sent this article to some friends the other day and one

of them had an interesting suggestion..she suggested that more than likely it's American born baal teshuvas (born again Jews who are fervently orthodox and extremely right-wing) who are doing this. Makes sense. Many of the settlers are from the US.

[Vickers]

3. And, uh...what are your thoughts on this? Why post it?

Do you have an opinion?

:shrug:

[IHateFundies]

4. well of course I think it's wrong

It's not right to spit on people because of their religious beliefs.

[Vickers]

5. It's not right to spit on people for ANY reason

:eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I disagree....

I wouldn't mind spitting on the majority of the Bush administration.

[Vickers]

7. Hey, I never claimed I did everything right or legal in my life

:spank:

[Matilda]

36. Wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire.

n/t

[kokomo]

8. Christian churches are losing their ancient properties.....

slowly being confiscated by Israel and converted to Jewish land.

Calling Israel the "only" democracy in the Middle East is such a joke. Truthfully, it is a theocracy whose goal is to remove all Muslims, Arabs, AND Christians from that land.

The blind support of the USA of Israel is the main cause of Muslim disgust with our nation's policies and fuel for the holy war of the extremist fundamentalists. They don't hate us for our freedom. They hate us for aiding and abetting genocide of brother Arabs on their West Bank and Gaza lands.

[HamdenRice]

13. It's basically anti-Christian ethnic cleansing

There was a long article in the NY Times magazine a few years ago about how Israelis are also driving Christians out of Bethlehem, the center of Christian culture in Israel/Palestine. Although the Greek Orthodox and Armenian churches have a big presence in Israel/Palestine and a lot of property that is at risk of confiscation and is being confiscated, in terms of population and a functioning community, the majority of Christians there are Arab Christians, and the center of their community is Bethlehem on the West Bank -- and most Arab Christians support the Palestinian leadership. In fact, some of Arafat's most influential and pragmatic advisors are Christian Arabs.

The ethnic cleansing reached a fever peak around the time a few years ago that PLO fighters took refuge in the shrine at Bethlehem and the Israeli army was basically going to blow up Christianity's holiest site.

It is amazing to me that the Israel-first lobby in America has so snookered Christo-fascist fundamentalist idiots into blindly supporting Israel while that state basically treats its own Christians like sub-humans.

[JohnLocke]

17. "Ethnic cleansing"?

:eyes:

[cushla_machree]

23. ethnic cleansing is an appropriate term

NOUN: The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.

This is exactly what israel is doing to its arab population.

[JohnLocke]

16. Please.

"Truthfully, it is a theocracy whose goal is to remove all Muslims, Arabs, AND Christians from that land."

:eyes:

[IHateFundies]

28. Armenian Christians appeal to the government over church property

http://www.armenian-patriarchate.org/current.html

Israeli officials first tried to seize a portion of the Baron Der land in early May 2001, when Israeli forces, abruptly and without notification, broke into the convent building. Upon the Patriachate’s complaint, an order of seizure was issued by the Ministry of Defense, not only seizing the property for six months, claiming it was needed for security reasons, but also causing enormous interior and exterior damage to the building and property. Then in late August 2001, despite an immediate attempt by Armenian monks from Bethlehem to prevent it, Israeli forces destroyed the perimeter wall enclosing the Patriarchate’s land, mowed down some of the ancient olive trees with their tanks, and proceeded to build a "temporary" security road 50 meters wide on the site where officials now want to build a more permanent separation security fence.

With the occupation of the convent, the destruction of the perimeter wall and the uprooting of the olive trees, the Patriarchate sent a complaint letter in early September 2001 to Israeli officials of the Ministry of Defense stating that $77,000 in interior and exterior damages had been sustained, asking for withdrawal from the property and compensation for the extensive damage. There was no reply.

Two months later, in December 2001, Israeli authorities responded to the Armenian Patriarchate’s letter of complaint, denying its intrusion into the Patriarchate’s property, and asserting that, in their view, they had never entered the said property and had not caused any of the damages set forth in the Patriarchate’s September letter of complaint. The authorities invited the Patriarchate to write to the committee of insurance and lawsuits of the Ministry of Defense if it had any dissatisfaction.

In January 2002, the Armenian Patriarchate received a letter from the Ministry of Defense, stating that, based on the Patriarchate’s letter of complaint of September 2001, the matter was under consideration.

In March 2002, the Armenian Patriarchate sent a letter requesting a response from the Ministry of Defense as a follow up to the January letter the Ministry had addressed to the Patriarchate. The Patriarchate’s letter went unanswered.

On 21 April 2002, the Israeli military paved a road through the Baron Der property dividing it into two useless plots. In the process of paving the road, the Israeli military destroyed ancient tombs and antiquities and uprooted many more centuries-old olive trees. Israeli authorities stated that the road was only for temporary use, and that as soon as the situation in the region became calm, the area would be restored as before. They also requested that the Patriarchate allow them to lease the Baron Der convent to use as their headquarters. The Patriarchate refused this request.

[AntiFascist]

9. Considering the fact that neocons and Christian fundamentalists....

are setting the stage so that Jerusalem gets turned into a piece of radioactive toast ("and the souls of those who are saved will rise up to heaven and will live for eternity in the Kingdom of the Lord") I can understand the sentiment of wanting to spit.

[IHateFundies]

10. these Christians have been there since before the founding of

Israel, and I can't see how Republican Neo-Cons and American fundies supporting Sharon, Likud, and Israel would make religious Jews in Jerusalem want to spit on Orthodox Christians.

[AntiFascist]

11. I remember some of the buzz right before 9/11....

All I know is when both Jews and Muslims begin to speak against Christians, it could spell turmoil.

[IHateFundies]

12. what was the pre-911 buzz?

I'm not sure I understand? What are you talking about?

"All I know is when both Jews and Muslims begin to speak against Christians, it could spell turmoil."

Religious strife is of course by definition turmoil, are you talking about something specific?

[AntiFascist]

15. All the buzz surrounding Osama bin Ladin prior to 9/11...

and al-Qaida was specifically targeting Christians, this was all over the news.

I just remember some heated discussions with rather brilliant orthodox Jewish types about the possible future of world government, no threats or anything of that nature, of course.

[IHateFundies]

33. okay, so what does that have to do with

your seeming approval of spitting on indigenous Orthodox Christians?

[AntiFascist]

34. I would never approve of such a thing, eventhough I admitted.....

sympathy. I think all fundamentalists are trying to defend their ancient views of the way things should be and naturally they are going to be upset by other fundamentalists, who wield some kind of power (through politics, terrorism or militarilly), and who feel that they have God on their side. I pretty much despise fundamentalists of all religions equally, but would never spit on them or try to prevent them from practicing their faith.

Bush would argue that by "practicing their faith" Islamic radicals kill and are a threat to our existance. Islamic radicals would argue "stay out of our land, or else."

On Edit: The reason I sided with the spitter in this case...I had in mind Pat Robertson and his ilk who think they know what is best for Jerusalem eventhough it is not in their native land.

[knitter4democracy]

24. They don't think we're Christians

Fundies, evangelicals, Pentecostals, and those of that ilk don't think that we Eastern Orthodox Christians are Christian, and according to their narrow definition, most of us aren't. They just don't care, those who know that there are Christians there, and the rest don't even know that we exist.

Funny, how when they go on pilgrimages to the Holy Land, they visit our churches. Most don't feel comfortable in them, though, and have services outside.

[IHateFundies]

25. That's simply not true

There have always been sects of fundies that believe they are the only true Christians, but the vast, vast majority of Evangelicals, Protestants, Pentacostals, and Catholics all accept Orthodox as Christians.

In fact, there are many leaders of these groups that have rejected this particularly American mix of Evangelicalism and Republicanism and have become Orthodox (one of the leaders involved in the Promise Keepers for instance left and became Orthodox).

But you are right about this though, many Americans don't even know the Orthodox exist.

[knitter4democracy]

29. Not quite

Most evangelicals at least require a born-again experience in order to call oneself Christian. Since we have infant baptism and look at Christianity as a walk of faith, an every-minute choice, and don't require a born-again experience, in their eyes we're not Christian.

My husband and I are both converts to the Eastern Orthodox Church from the Church of the Nazarene. Trust me, we've gotten plenty of grief from family members about this, especially when it comes to our children. Many Protestant churches don't consider Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or even other Protestant churches to be "really" Christian. I was even told by a Pentecostal missionary (to Russia, of all places) that the Orthodox Church is leading its followers to hell.

Yes, converts to the Orthodox faith are many, especially in the last twenty years or so, and yes, most mainline Protestant churches and the Catholic church consider us Christian, but followers of Wesley and Pentecostals tend not to.

[AntiFascist]

26. Many progressive Christians don't consider fundamentalists.....

or even Catholics for that matter, to represent true Christianity. I suppose this can be traced back to the Reformation. One could draw parallels between the way mainstream Muslims feel about radical Islamists.

[Copland]

14. I am against people spitting on me as well..

[Selatius]

19. I don't get it

I don't get why hate continues to endure.

You'd think people learned something after what Martin Luther King, Jr. said. You'd think people learned something after 50,000,000 died in Europe before Hitler was dead in his bunker. You'd think people learned something after Jesus taught tolerance and respect for others regardless of who they were 2,000 years ago.

All this article tells me is that hatred is blind. It can come in any form and attack any person regardless of who they are. Hatred is learned, and if bigotry against Christians is a problem in Israel, then the Israeli public as well as the government of Israel must address the problem, or if it is left to fester in the shadows, then it could one day turn into violence against Christians.

As a matter of opinion, bigotry should be confronted wherever it arises, or everyone suffers everywhere.

[Matilda]

37. It's a sign of insecurity, to fear anybody who's different.

I wonder why believers of any sort should be so fearful?

[AntiFascist]

39. There was a prevailing rumor after 9/11....

that Israeli intelligence had more information about it than the CIA. I'd like to hear that this is a false rumor, but talk about LIHOP!

[DemBones DemBones]

27. Spitting on people is so demeaning. It truly demeans both people.

It's depressing to know that people of any religion would do this to people of other faiths.

Will the human race ever grow up?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

30. Payback is a bitch, aint it?

...considering what the Christians did to the Jews through much of the diaspora history...well...

[The Straight Story]

31. Great

So you support people who had nothing to do with an event being punished by someone else years later? Is justice something you see as applicable to and entire group or race while the guilty are long since gone?

In that vein, perhaps hitler was paying back the jews for things they did and we should see him as just in his actions. HE saw it that way. Worked wonders....

[masher]

32. Hitler certainly saw it that way

"...by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
-- Mein Kampf

Hard to justify this sort of religious intolerance. But a lot of people manage somehow...

[Djinn]

35. nice progressive theory that one

You're OK with Palestinians killing Israelis I guess, you know considering the Nakba and all, and you're OK with Israelis killing Muslims considering teh intifada, keep the killing going all round because there's not a single ethnic/religious group out there that doesn't have some skeletons dangling somewhere :eyes:

[geek tragedy]

38. Except those Christians are dead.

But why let facts get in the way of a little hating . . .