A Man And His People

[Violet_Crumble]

By Uri Avnery
07 November, 2004
Gush Shalom

Wherever he may be buried when he passes away, the day will come when his remains will be reinterred by a free Palestinian government in the holy shrines in Jerusalem.

Yasser Arafat is one of the generation of great leaders who arose after World War II.

The stature of a leader is not simply determined by the size of his achievements, but also by the size of the obstacles he had to overcome. In this respect, Arafat has no competitor in the world: no leader of our generation has been called upon to face such cruel tests and to cope with such adversities as he.

When he appeared on the stage of history, at the end of the 1950s, his people was close to oblivion. The name Palestine had been eradicated from the map. Israel, Jordan and Egypt had divided the country between them. The world had decided that there was no Palestinian national entity, that the Palestinian people had ceased to exist, like the American Indian nations - if, indeed, it had ever existed at all.

Within the Arab world the “Palestinian Cause” was still mentioned, but it served only as a ball to be kicked around between the Arab regimes. Each of them tried to appropriate it for its own selfish interests, while brutally putting down any independent Palestinian initiative. Almost all Palestinians lived under dictatorships, most of them in humiliating circumstances.

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-avnery061104.htm

[Ardee]

1. So many versions

I do not know if Arafat was the best leader for the Palestinian cause, but I do know that he could do nothing pertinent in the face of overwhelming Israeli military superiority, unholy Israeli lack of morality when dealing with the poor people of Palestine, and the need to placate the various Palestinian terrorist groups.

[LARED]

2. Yes, Yes

This generations greatest leader to some I'm sure, Hitler is also considered a great leader in his generation by some people.

The stature of a leader is not simply determined by the size of his achievements,

This certainly is true, but achievement is a very important element of truly great leadership

Let's look at some of his better known accomplishments

The inventor of airline hijacking.
Clearly one of the 20th centuries finest mind on innovative uses of terror.
While in Lebanon killed off whole villages of Christians
The P.L.O. has thousands of murders on their hands
In 1972, he masterminded the attack in Munich, slaughtering 11 unarmed Jewish athletes
Blowing up unarmed Jewish civilian in pizzerias and nightclubs.
Set up a fine security force than somehow never made anything secure.
Not to mention his incredible wealth stolen from "his" people.

Quite clearly a man with supreme leadership traits. (gag)

[bluesoul]

3. Just like Sharon

Uh that sounded a lot like Sharon and his "deeds" and "achievements". Funny...

[LARED]

4. So does that make you

a defender of Arafat or an antagonist of Sharon. Or both?

[bluesoul]

6. Hmmm

I certainly aint no Sharon (or Arafat) apologist, that's for sure. Too many of self proclaimed progressives and democrats are, which is a wonder to me being a liberal and Sharon very much to the right, even extreme right parts in Likud and their allies.

I just care for the Palestinians and their plight. Israelis live in comfort and security compared to what they have to put up daily for the last 3 decades. Enough said...

[HEyHEY]

45. How about a person with common sense?

Sharon and Arafat can rot in hell together as far as I'm concerned

[LARED]

5. Another thing

The moral equivalency bestowed between Sharon and Arafat by Sharon's detractors is repulsive. Sharon isn't worthy to shines Arafat's shoes when it comes to innocent blood on their hands.

[Djinn]

7. you're fucking kidding right?

please tell me what more Sharon has to do to be deemed a vile bloodthirsty shit in your eyes.

If arranging the slaughter of men but mostly women and children in refugee camps, while providing covering fire isn't enough what is??

Even the Israeli government judged him responsible for Sabra and Chatilla and held that he was unfit for office

[LARED]

31. Sabra and Chatilla

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_elie_hobeika.php#

Elie Hobeika is best known as the intelligence chief of the Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia group responsible for the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camp massacres in 1982. Hobeika was directly responsible for carrying out the massacres (and other gruesome acts over the years). Before the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, Hobeika was assigned as a liasion officer with the IDF. Following the war, he turned his back on Israel and joined the pro-Syrian camp in Lebanon, incurring the wrath of the right-wing Christian rank and file in the mid-1980s. He became a crucial ally of Syrian subjugation of Lebanon, and had a long career until he was killed in a massive bomb attack at his house in a Beirut suburb in January 2002.

[Englander]

33. "palestinefacts.org"=pro-Israeli propaganda..........

of the "keep Jerusalem-united,settlements-not-illegal,Palestine-never-a-country" variety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

If you're trying to tell us Sharon has no responsibility for the Sabra & Shatila massacre,the majority of people here,I imagine,will not believe you.
That incident is the major reason why he is considered a war criminal.

[LARED]

34. Fascinating

Really

The link I posted that you claim is propaganda gives the same information that you posted. So are both right or both wrong?

Hmmmmmm.

As to Sharon guilt in this matter it is clearly well - not so clear.

Arafat's guilt is beyound question his and his alone. So at any rate what is clear is that in terms of crimes against humanity Sharon is is minor player compared to Arafat.

This thread is about Arafat legacy's not Sharon's'.

When Sharon dies you will get your chance.

[Englander]

35. No,phalangist AND idf were responsible for the massacre...

your biased link neglects to mention that.As for who killed Hobeika,I don't know,he had a lot of enemies.It was certainly spooky timing,coming a few days after he agreed to give evidence at the Belgium war crimes trial of Sharon...if it was Israel,it wouldn't be the first time assassination was used as a policy.

Sharon? Guilty? But,but he...he's a man of peace!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,639157,00.html

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Guess you haven't heard of the Kahan Commission or Qibya...

When it comes to crimes against humanity, Sharon could teach most wanna-be mass-murderers a thing or two...

Anyway, it was very clear to the Kahan Commission that Sharon held responsibility for the slaughter:

"The Kahan Commission (named after the President of the Israeli Supreme Court) that investigated the massacre in 1983 concluded that “Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility” and should “draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office.” The commission recommended that Prime Minister Menachem Begin remove Sharon from office if he did not resign. Sharon did resign as minister of defense, though he subsequently assumed other cabinet positions. Annexes of the commission report have not yet been made public, and it is not known if they contain additional information specific to Sharon´s involvement."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/06/23/isrlpa97.htm

and for the full text of the Commission's findings:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html


But if you want to hold Sharon to a different standard to Arafat, and believe that for Arafat only the most tenuous of links is needed to accuse him of being responsible for atrocities, while insisting that Sharon must have personally been right there in the thick of a slaughter to qualify him for condemnation, Qibya's what you'd be looking for...

In 1953, an Israeli unit attacked a Jordanian village called Qibya and blew up every house in the village with the villagers still inside. Over 50 men, women and children died in that massacre. Sharon was leading the unit that carried out that atrocity....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,433318,00.html

Violet...

[Englander]

37. Thank you for that,Violet,..

I didn't know about Qibya before,probably 'cos it's been air-brushed from most biogs of Sharon.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. No worries...

There's a bit on it in 'The Iron Wall', which is how I first came to learn about it. There's a few other instances in the 1950's of Sharon literally having the blood of civilians on his hands, an attack on a refugee camp in Gaza that left around 50 people dead being one of them...

Cheers...

Violet...

[Djinn]

40. did the Israeli investigation

find Sharon responsible or not - did they state that Sharon was unfit for political office or not?

yes we all know the Phalangists were the actual perpetrators - gee huge surprise - why were Israeli 'copters flying overhead and lighting up the area? why were they shooting those who managed to flee?

keep your head in the sand if you makes you feel better - I've always preferred fact myself, it's painful sometimes but you know what they say about those who do not remember the past.

[Djinn]

8. A bit of history may be in order

A Syrian civilian airliner was forced down by Israeli authorities in Tel Aviv and its passengers and crew held for days, despite international condemnation. The year was 1954 It was the first skyjacking of a civilian airline.

The Israeli foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett, was appalled by it. He recorded in his diary: "I have no reason to doubt the truth of the factual affirmation of the U.S. State Department that our action was without precedent in the history of international practice. What shocks and worries me is the narrow-mindedness and the short-sightedness of our military leaders. They seem to presume that the state of Israel may—or even must—behave in the realm of international relations according to the laws of the jungle."

And there's also:

1968, Israeli commandos blew up 13 civilian airliners at Beirut airport in Lebanon.

Palestine, 1940: Haganah terrorists bomb the boat "Patria" full of Jewish immigrants at the port of Haifa, killing more than 200 people

Palestine, 1946: Jewish terrorists, led by Menachem Begin, bomb and destroy the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the British military and civilian headquarters, killing 91 people (including my grandfathers cousin - a Jew)

Palestine, 1947: hundreds are killed by Hagana in the village of Baldat al-Shaikh

Oh and I nearly forgot - the first bombings of buses? carried out by Zionist terrorists not Arabs, the first marketplace bombings? carried out by Zionist terrorists not Arabs, Zionist terrorist also attempted to bomb embassies, sent letter bombs to UK MP's

Arafat is unlikely to make it out of that French Hospital and will therefore never be a leader of a nation. Several promionent Jewish terrorists (if you have another name for Hagannah, Irgun Stern gang and others who deliberately targetted civilians for political gain please tell me) became high ranking Israeli politicians and also PM's.

Both sides have committed atrocities and without acknowledging that on BOTH sides this tit for tat bullshit continues, doesn't help when people living outside the crucible, in US, Europe and elsewhere make up their own history to fit their views.

[Englander]

9. Well said,Djinn.

n/t

[QueerJustice]

10. That sounds biased and one sided to me...

[bluesoul]

11. Much as

anything you say....

[QueerJustice]

12. Nope my views are quite balanced and accurate.

..and haimish...

[bluesoul]

13. Of course they are

:crazy:

As much as Jpost and Faux News are fair and balanced and accurate :eyes: :eyes:

[Djinn]

41. of course it's one sided

the point was that while YES Palestinian organisations have most certainly been guilty of terrorist acts that kill innocents human beings, and I will never and have never disputed that - ISRAELI'S ARE ALSO GUILTY OF TERROSISM, both before Israel was established and afterwards.

Biased? no - wanna disprove any of them? want to try and dispute the murderous acts of the Sterng Gang or Hagannah et al?

nope thought not.

[Ardee]

23. a standing ovation

Thank you for your correction to the mythos that Israeli apologists constantly attempt to foist upon us all.

Odd isnt it that, while those who defend Palestinian rights condemn terrorism on both sides, those who rush to condemn acts of terrorism by arabs never ever note the disparity in numbers among those who are maimed or murdered, hundreds of Israelis have died at the hands of arabs while thousands of Palestinians have died at the hands of Israeli soldiers and settlers.

The Holocaust made me understand such things as basic rights and perversion of government, a shame that those who directly experienced that awful history should birth a nation that has forgotten its heritage.

[Liberal Classic]

14. RIP Leon Klinghoffer

nuff said.

[bluesoul]

15. Two sides to the story

Rachel Corrie RIP

Nuff said.

[Liberal Classic]

16. This is a bit of a non sequitur, don't you think?

Bringing up the Achille Lauro hijacking is topical and relavent to the discussion of Arafat's legacy. I do not cheer at Arafat's illness, but I believe there is entirely too much hero-worship going on.

Mentioning Miss Corrie in this context seems to be calculated to soften the imact of the deeds of the Achille Lauro hijackers. Trying to draw a moral equivalence between Miss Corrie and Mr. Klinghoffer strikes me as being particularly jaded and cynical. Rachel Corrie put herself in harms way for a cause she believed in. This does not mean that I believe she deserved to be killed. I shouldn't have to make that disclaimer, but given the topsy-turvy climate of I/PA I do so explicitly. She was an able-bodied young woman who knew the risks she was taking when she entered a war zone. Leon Klinghoffer on the other hand was a 70 year old paraplegic on holiday. He is but one of many victims of terrorist acts committed by members of the Palestine Liberation Organization, and related groups such as Fatah and the Palestinian Liberation Front.

[bluesoul]

17. Nope

Rachel Corrie is only one of many that have died because of the ILLEGAL occupation and bulldozers (not on Israeli land!) destroying Palestinian houses and other civilian property. ANd I didn't know that the bulldozer is part of the IDF and that you step into a warzone if you prevent a civilian home by being demolished. Interesting, you may even admit something many Israelis wouldn't want to since it would put them in a rather uncivilized position. You can twist the facts as much as you like to favor Israelis, facts on the ground (and the several decade long occupation) says more then any words...

See post by Djinn for other numerous cases of Israeli terrorism....

[Liberal Classic]

18. In light of your response

I won't mention the PLO's connection to the 1972 Munich Games.

[bluesoul]

19. Well

And I won't mention Sabra and Shatila and Israel's current head of state involvement and responsibility for that massacre and war crime...

[Liberal Classic]

20. I've tried to remain topical

This thread is specifically about Arafat and his legacy. I believe his legacy is and will be, on the whole, a negative one. I've tried to stay on topic and present my views in a non-inflammatory manner.

[Lithos]

21. Achille Lauro

Wasn't that actually Abu Nidal who at the time was at odds with Fatah and the PLO?

L-

[bemildred]

22. Shhhh. Don't go muddying up all this moral clarity with facts. nt

[Ardee]

24. hee hee

You have made me chuckle , thanks.....(Its tough to find laughter in such a topic as this).

[Liberal Classic]

25. Well, I'm sorry...

...that you think my mind and morals are muddled. Naturally, I disagree.

[bemildred]

26. Muddied. nt

[newyorican]

27. Yes it was Abu Nidal...

I was waiting to see how long this was going to play out before the issue was clouded with facts...

Wonder how long it will be before we are told Arafat flew both planes into the WTC and the 3rd into the Pentagon...personally.

[bluesoul]

28. Well

Arafat, Saddam, Bin Laden, to some people it doesn't matter who is responsible. Even the US public falls for it and still believes Saddam was behind 9/11 (which is ludicrous). Why am I not surprised that some EVEN here would blame Arafat for everything (from starting terrorism to A. Lauro as though there was none of that before him even on the other side), even things that Israel bares the responsibility?

For them its simply those evil Arabs/Muslims. Sadly...

[Englander]

30. Abu ABBAS......not Nidal....see post 29.............

n/t

[newyorican]

32. Yuppers...

I stand corrected...

http://www.specialoperations.com/Images_Folder/library2/achille.html

[Lithos]

39. Yes, you are correct

L-

[Englander]

29. Abu Abbas.......not Nidal....

>>Surprising many, he backed the Oslo peace accords, condemned terrorism, and after the 1995 interim accords with the PLO, Israel allowed him to return to Gaza. In 1996 he admitted that seizing the Achille Lauro was "a mistake" and apologised for killing Klinghoffer.

>>Israeli courts confirmed his immunity in 1999. In 2002, he castigated the September 11 2001 New York atrocity and pointedly damned al-Qaida<<

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,,1166617,00.html

[Djinn]

42. yep sure

that one act cancel out ALL the arabs murdered; all the children beaten or shot by settlers, all those killed before and during the Nakba, all those shot "accidently"

What an unbelievably ignorant thing to say - I'd never claim (and I can't think of anyone else here who would) that the THOUSANDS of acts of terrorism against Palestinians both before and after the establishment of Israel negate the terrorism at the hands of the PLO, HAmas et al, yet you somehow think the murder of Klinghoffer means all the brutality BEFORE that happened was justified.

Utterly fucking speechless

[Liberal Classic]

43. Since you addressed this message to me personally

I'll make an effort at a response.

Arafat has publically renounced terrorism. This is certianly something I support. Well and good. Personally, I doubt his sincerity, and believe that he talks out of both sides of his mouth. However, that is not at issue here. My point is that we do not excuse convicted felons of their prison sentences and release them simply because they publically renounce violence. It is for this reason I oppose the lionization of Arafat I see going on in this forum.

[Djinn]

44. who's lionising

please name one poster who is "lionising" Arafat? people are maybe a bit bemused by the macarbe gloating or the "he's got AIDS, he's got AIDS" obsession but no-one is lionising him.

What I was actually asking you is why you think Klinghoffers death cancels out the deaths of Palestinians killed by Israel, especially those killed decades before Klinghoffer by Zionist terrorism groups?