Settlers attack Palestinian olive harvesters, clash with IDF

[Scurrilous]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/502842.html

<snip>

"Seventy West Bank settlers from Itamar attacked Palestinian olive harvesters and clashed with Israeli security forces in the village of Awarta near Nablus on Wednesday morning.

The olive harvesters in the area are provided protection by the Israel Defense Forces due to the increase in attacks by Jewish settlers.

Settlers on Wednesday morning threw stones at the Palestinians and clashed with IDF soldiers who attempted to prevent a disruption of the harvest."


<snip>

"During the past several weeks in the northern West Bank, including in the Itamar area, settlers have stolen olives from Palestinian villagers on a number of occasions.
According to an unconfirmed report, the Itamar settlers also attempted to steal olives during the Wednesday morning attacks."

[Djinn]

1. how come clashes with settlers

tend not to lead to fatal shootings?

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Amazing, ain't it?

The response to stone-throwing is taking aim and firing at the stone-throwers when they're Palestinians, but when they're settlers the kid gloves appear real quick...

Read this, djinn. The IDF makes the Palestinians apply to harvest their own crops, and many times will then refuse to allow them to enter their own fields to do it.

http://www.btselem.org/Download/2002_Olive_Harvest_Eng.pdf

After reading that, it's amazing the IDF actually did protect the Palestinians, seeing as how they've known for a long time where the trouble spots are and have done zero about it. And is it any wonder when you read these comments of support from an MK and a Rabbi?

"Public figures associated with the settlers have expressed tacit “understanding” for these acts. For example, MK Nachum Langental of the National Religious Party declared in the Knesset: “Some of the Arabs’ olives are right there on the fences of the settlements. What are we talking about? These are settlements that people have broken into; terrorist gangs have broken into them. What do you expect from the settlers who live in that settlement, Mr. Minister of Defense? What do we expect?”

and

"This behavior was even supported by some of the rabbis affiliated with the settlers, including former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who stated that: "Since the land is the inheritance of the People of Israel, planting on this land by gentiles is planting on land that does not belong to them. If someone plants a tree on my land, both the tree and the fruit it yields belong to me."




Violet...

[Djinn]

3. what really gets me

is the UTTER UTTER silence on this and every other thread describing human rights violations and outright murder but the IDF and Israeli government.

In every thread about Palestinian terrorism or violence every "pro-Palestinian" (hate that term) poster states repeatedly that they beleive it's murder, we've all said we did not think Arafat should be glorified, that civilians shouldn't be targeted. Yet on any post about Israeli atrocities or even just describing the Palestinians daily hardships it's mute time for the usual suspects.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

6. I'll try again

gee don your bullshit post stays and mine is deleted but strangely I don't think that means there's a big conspiracy against my viewpoint unliek you with your veiled hints that DU purges only Pro Israeli posters

strangely you can accuse me of not ever condemning Palestinian atrocities which is a flat out lie - but when I point out your absolutely vile posting history you bang the alert button quicker than the IDF shoots 12 year olds holding stones.

If I ever talk about being aroused by someone deaths THEN you can lecture me.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Why bother?

Exerting energy on something like this is like the benefit gained in trying to explain to a James Hardie executive why their payouts are morally disgusting. They're not there to listen to anything, and they aren't interested in anything but their viewpoint. There's a habit of some posters of conjuring up things that aren't here (eg, Arafat/Sufa fans, me celebrating Sept.11), and then ignoring things that are here (people can condemn things repeatedly, but some folk ignore those posts and run around accusing folk of never condemning suicide bombings). Most people posting here are bright enough to read for themselves and know what's said and not said, so I personally wouldn't bother myself with what someone who posts articles accusing Jimmy Carter of being anti-Semitic has to say :)

Violet...

[Djinn]

44. I thought you were

"There's a habit of some posters of conjuring up things that aren't here (eg, Arafat/Sufa fans, me celebrating Sept.11)"

the Canberra President of the Suha Arafat Fan Club? and I'm sure at saw you at the inaugural Anti-American/anti-semitic jihadi-fascist supporters (Aust branch) BBQ ;-)

[Violet_Crumble]

48. ha ha...

I'm surprised you spotted my fleeting visits to those events, what with me having to juggle my time with those and also being Chairperson of the Canberra/Queanbeyan chapter of the al-Zarqawi appreciation society, as well as being central to the ongoing efforts to supply suicide bombers with aesthetically pleasing and functional belts for their explosives ;)

Violet...

[Jackie97]

25. I think some of the problems are....

that people think that if the military is killing out of "defending the country", then the killing is okay.

Many of us tend to think that if IDF targets a place knowing it will get civilians, then they're purposely killing civilians. Some of us would say that civilians are the target since they already know ahead of time.

However, they don't see it that way for some reason.

I think what needs to be better understood is that the Palestinians don't have an army to fight with. Therefore, they can't fight the IDF. They have to attack civilians to have attacks. Attacking civilians is not morally okay, but it's part of liberation movements.

[drdon326]

27. Well...this is interesting...if not more.

"I think what needs to be better understood is that the Palestinians don't have an army to fight with. Therefore, they can't fight the IDF. They have to attack civilians to have attacks. Attacking civilians is not morally okay, but it's part of liberation movements."


they dont have an army to fight with .... so they commit war crimes ?
Did i get that about right?...please tell me i'm wrong.

I guess any vile , inhuman murder and war crime can now be legitimized by calling it liberation. Progressive rationization 101?


A.maze.ing. I am speechless.

[Djinn]

30. Israel DOES have an army

and they STILL committ war crimes, they certaibnly would never have come into existence without resort to terrorism.

Ooops I forgot Israel's terrorism (if you only accept non states as being capable of terrorism) happened in the past so it's oakilly doakilly

[sushi]

65. Both sides are doing the same thing

but one side calls it liberation, the other side calls it defense!

[pelsar]

57. djinn.....no problem

if you want to discuss with me how and why the IDF shoots civilians, the miserable lives of the palestenians i have absolutly no problem with it. I will have a problem if I hear the usual generalizations that the IDF targets children, journalists etc....i take that rather personally.

if you would like to discuss the settlers and the extremism, no problem there, I could probably shed some light on many subjects in that area.

so far i have yet to have a really reasonable discussion here with anyone, which strikes me as a bit strange, (though i started with one person who was actually out in the westbank, that was interesting), since I doubt anyone of you here have actually spoken with anyone from the IDF......

open minds?......

[Djinn]

60. cool you can give the IDF line

you know the one that says you HAVE to shoot anything that moves even if it's a child, the one that says it's OK for Israeli citizens to build settlements on land that isn't israel but it's illegal for Palestinians to do the same. The one that says firing into crowds simply causes "collateral" damage but when Palestinians fire rockets it's deliberate murder....

These guys are also in the IDF and have also spent time in the OT - and unlike yourself we KNOW they have - sorry but anyone can claim anything on this board. Why should I beleive YOU and not them, or the Palestinians I know who've fled the area or the Israeli's I know who left Israel in disgust or the many Jews (including myself) who have never supported the ocuupation.

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

BTW on the 20th of Nov you claimed that you were to be called up and therefore incommunicado in a few days - you posted this on the 29th - what happened to the call up??

[pelsar]

8. kids gloves...

sorry violet, but a little bit of reality should help you out here. The palestenians stone throwers, have at times show up with guns as well. So they are also life threatening. And since that can happen at any time the response is appropriate. The settler dont threaten the lives of the soldiers, hence the approach is non violent.

for refrence check out the IDF response during the intifada I (after the appropriate riot control equip was brought in)

BTW the IDF responds to israeli public pressure. As there are less shootings and bombings, (due to constant IDF pressure and fewer skilled terrorists), the israeli public is a bit more relaxed and is now willing to "let up on the palestenians"....help them with their daily lives. Hence the presssure.

its one of the attributes of a democracy, so its really not surprising at all, for those who know the society.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Reality?

Yep, you probably hit the nail on the head. Kids throw stones at an occupying military force and of course that justifies killing them. Bugger the Geneva Convention. International law is so stupid anyway. Reality is that it's okay to attack people as long as they're Palestinians. Did you realise those sort of heavily armed settlers have, apart from murdering Palestinians trying to harvest their crops, also attacked foreigners and Israelis?

What you described as the attributes of a democracy is something I'd never want to be part of. Murdering and oppressing innocent civilians is disgusting and there's nothing to justify it at all. It may be the American Way, but it's not mine, and I doubt it's the way of a large number of Israelis...

Heh, I've read a bit about the IDF response to the first Intifada. Do you really want to go there? ;)

Violet...

[pelsar]

10. precision in debat is a virtue

violet...please be precise:
kids may throw stones....and during the stones throwing the the kids/olderones also also start shooting. This doesnt happen everytime, it happens now much less but it was a common occurence. That was what I wrote....your response should be precise.

and please use correct terminology. The settlers are not "heavily armed", as that connotates carrying several weapons, protection gear etc. They in fact carry a single automatic weapon with magazine or two. Deadly yes, but not heavily armed.

so far your a bit short on credability.

I am very aware of the settlers, how they act/treat the palestenians, but that wasnt the point of your post. Your point was that the IDF treats israeli and palesteniains differently..as they should. One group tends to throw rocks and shoots at them and since they dont wear uniforms its rather difficult to tell who is doing what....whereas the israelis be they settlers or "leftest" dont shoot at the soldiers.

i tend to agree that murdering and oppressing innocents is disgusting....so too is having in dictatorship society that promotes killing on video, TV, educational books and teaches it to their children....wouldnt you say? (isnt that against the geneva convention?....)

Intifada I?.....you can "go there" if you want, in the world of the middle east the protests by the palestenians were "relativly non violent (rocks, moltov cocktails, refridgerators being thrown down, etc)... the IDF response once the appropriate equipment was brought and methods learned was tear gas, batons, etc. with exceptions on both side noted.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Then lead by example...

Kiddies shooting at troops was a common occurence? How about providing some evidence to support that? Though even if it were true, that doesn't justify armed troops shooting into groups of children. And the IDF has an obligation as the occupying power to protect the civilians in the territory they've occupied. Using the excuse that 'they' don't wear uniforms so it's hard to tell the difference between combatants and civilians is pretty weak. I could get you a long list of Palestinian civilians as well as foreign and Israeli peace activists that the IDF has fired on, and together we can gasp in awe at the way the IDF so broadly shoots at folk who look like civilians but *may* not be. Of course no settlers are in that group, as they appear to be a protected species...


If yr trying to call the Palestinian political system a dictatorship, yr wrong. Arafat was democratically elected, and the correct term for the system would be neopatrimonial...

Violet...

[pelsar]

12. arafats election.....

come on violet...even the palestenians that i've spoken with know the his election was a sham:

Arafat won with over 80 percent of the vote and he was going against 73-year-old social activist Samirha Khalil

now, this is simply the way things were:

kids would approach intersections and throw rocks, etc disrupting traffic, the IDF would come throw some tear gas and rubberbullets, in the back alleys the palestenain shooters would start, and then from the crowd, the IDF would shoot back, sometimes with snipers sometimes not, ambulances would appear to, take away the wounded and deliver more rocks.

that was standard for a the first year or two.

is this another one of yours: "
that doesn't justify armed troops shooting into groups of children"

would you mind clarifying that? where, when how many times? and if you cant, why would you write it?


and since you've obviously never been even near a situation where you have to differentiate between civilians and shooters you really wouldnt know if its a "weak excuse" now would you? Since you dont know....why would you say it?

and foreign visitors are not sacred, the ISM has made it very clear on whose side they are on and what they are willing to do. But again you confuse me, I already mentioned that since the settlers pose no threat to the IDF there is no reason for the IDF to shoot at them....or did you miss that?

and having the IDF shoot at israelis (one incident) foreigners (many) and palestenians(even more) are the result of a being in a war zone. I could give you a thousand reasons why they happen be it mistakes, pressures, trigger happy soliders, etc but that wouldnt be the point now would it?......

and neopatrimonial.....heh heh....just a nicer way of saying cult dictatorship (saddams was also a "neopatrimonial" as idi amins..and stalin for that matter

[Scurrilous]

13. "ambulances would appear to....

.... take away the wounded and deliver more rocks."

Thanks for the laugh. :thumbsup:

Delivering rocks to the Palestinians is akin to having to deliver ice to Eskimos.Thanks to the IDF bulldozers, one thing they have plenty of in the OT is piles of rocks.

[pelsar]

14. i'm surprised...

i really thought that this was common knowledge...the palesteniains have used ambulances to carry bombs, terrorists, rocks etc since the start of intifada II


"In January 2002, a Palestinian Red Crescent paramedic, Wafa Idris, blew herself up in Jaffa Road, Jerusalem, killing one old man and injuring nearly 150.

"She was transported that day by a Red Crescent ambulance whose driver, Mohammed Hababa, was also part of the plot. On another occasion, in May 2002 in Ramallah, a bomb belt was discovered hidden under a 6 year old boy, who knew nothing about it. It was safely detonated in the presence of a Red Cross observer and the boy was brought to an ambulance on the other side of the checkpoint."

and there was the film of the terrorists hopping into the back of the unrwa ambulance in gaza a couple of months ago

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002107.php

so how do we do this in the proper DU method: Scurrilous has made an error due to lack of knowledge of how the rocks are thrown and used by slingshot at intersections.

specific size rocks are required, the bulldozers pile up rocks, dirt etc and are not appropriate "ammunition dumps" for the palestenians. Hence they must be resupplied.

how was that?

[idontwantaname]

15. your blatant generalizations and selective use of information is offensive

pelsar have you ever traveled to the west bank and/or witnessed:

1) an Israeli army invasion on a civilian population?

or

2) settlers attacking palestinians during the olive harvest?

there are many things which occur in the field which is seldom written or reported about...
more often than not it is because the Israeli army demands all materials present at the time of conflict be erased. the things you choose to accept as truths of the situation are extremely one sided and far from reality.

------------------------------------

when the Israeli army invades they taunt the local kids to throw rocks... at times the commander will exit his jeep to throw a rock at the kids. they will also call out through their loudspeaker "hey, where is the kid we killed yesterday"... but like this "hey balata camp. where is that dog kid mohammed we shot yesterday? where are your rocks balata?"

there is seldom a legitamate reason for the army to be there in the first place... except to stir up the kids... and after about 3 or so hours they will shoot and kill someone.

------------------------------------

i am open to debate with you but please recognize the difference between a palestinian fighter and a farmer... do not generalize or lump entire groups of people or organizations together

(the palesteniains have used ambulances to carry bombs, terrorists, rocks etc since the start of intifada II)

this is a very ignorant and racist statement.

[pelsar]

16. have I ever been to the west bank.....yes

and I know how part of the israeli army taunts the kids, and I know how the settlers harass the palestenians, and I know israelis that go with the palestenians to protect them from the settlers and I differentiate as much as possible the palestenian farmers vs the terrorists and I also know about the amublances carry bombs and rocks.....

i am an israeli who has done my reserve service in both the west bank and gaza, so, much of what I write about is either through 1st person experience or 2nd (personal experiences from my unit) or briefings from our officers on what to watch out for so that we can return home alive to our families.

More than that when i read about how evil the IDF is I take it rather personally. I know of many of the excesses, and I know why many of them happen, nor do I excuse them. But I definitly resent generalizations against the IDF when the writer does not know what he/she is writing about, or worse what was once an exageration has now become "a fact"

ambulances being used? why is that ignorent or racist?.....its pretty common knowldege out here...we've seen them, watched them, and bombs have since been discovered on them?....first of all why is that surprising? and second in the above link theres even a picture of one that was videoed.....but now I am curious, why would you use the words racist? I cant recall in any of my posts here something that is racist?

ok...i think i understand your statement: the racism, when I used palestenians for using the ambulances. True the "palestenians dont use the ambulances as military vehicles just the various jihads etc.

fair enought, then you to do the same with the IDF. The IDF doesnt harrass the palestenians, its usually just the border patrol unit....or not all the settlers harras, its just the religous zionists extremists (there are several different types of settlers)

realistically its impossible to discuss the conflict without some generalizations. But I'll try if you try....fair enough? but now i wonder if you know enough about israeli society to differntiate between the differernt characteristics of the different army units, or the different types of settlers, or the israeli left vs the moderate center vs the right?

[idontwantaname]

17. agreed. i apologise.

i admit the racist comment was over reacting on my part.

i will try to keep from generalizing betwee army and border patrol.
while i do find the BP to be taken more seriously in rock throwing situations than the army... the army certainly does a majority of harassment in more populated areas. the armys vehicles are better equipted to handle the abuse... the BPs jeeps arent as armored.

your english is very good.

interesting you served both in gaza as well as the west bank.

what part of the reserves have you been involved with(you may PM me if you feel uncomfortable with answering in public... or not at all too.)

[pelsar]

19. no problem.....

I'm in a small recon unit.....I've been through both intifadas as a reservist, which gives one a very different view then some 18-20yr old kid on active duty.

The BPs are basically of arab origin, which in terms of culture have a better understanding of the palestenians, where as the army, more of european decsent (some generalizations here) are more into "brute force" rather then understanding the local culture. More trained in warfare than in population control.

You obviously have been around and also know how "messy" it is between the multitude of groups. but its really quite impossible to discuss the situation without generalizations. At the sametime one can easily find the exceptions to the generalizations as well. The palestenian who save the soldiers life and visa versa..etc

actually, perhaps this is a bit ironic but i wont have much time here as I've been called up and will be gone in a few days... (I just stopped in to kill an "hour')

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

21. that's a shame

[drdon326]

24. You people buying this ???

Obviously pelsar is just one of "THOSE" bloodthirsty racist
IDF types who just "live" to kill as many palestinians as possible.
What an act !! I could hear his murderous ways even here.










ed note-100% sarcasm.

[idontwantaname]

18. also...

i have met many respectable army and border patrol soldiers... and have heard 2nd hand about settlers who have been kind to neighboring palestinian villagers.

[pelsar]

22. return....

idontwananame.....when i return I'll see if your still around, its always more interesting and educational to discuss the situation from someone who has actually been there, Its amazing how much is going on (both sides) that doesnt get out. (its usually most interesting talking to palestenians...)

also, as i'm sure you know, when the discussion is with someone who hasnt been there, you have to spend days dispelling all the half truths that they believe are true. Or what I have found, (if you check in to my previous posts here, on my first day) that i get accused of all kinds of things, even though I am attempting to just get out simple facts and dispell all those exagerations.....

[drdon326]

23. Pelsar....You're my hero !!

welcome and come back soon.

[Djinn]

26. the refuseniks

who are also speaking from experience of "being there" don't agree with you - why is your opinion more valid than theirs?

Palestinians who are also speaking from experience of "being there" (and on the sharp end too) don't agree with you - why is your opinion more valid than theirs?

[Djinn]

41. you know it's also common knowldge

that the IDF have used them as well?

[Violet_Crumble]

28. That'd be a landslide, not a sham...

Just because a large percentage of those who vote voted for one presidential candidate does not mean it wasn't a democratic election.

Local and international election monitors characterized the election as generally free and fair, with some reservations. During the electoral campaign, both Palestinian and Israeli authorities were responsible for incidents in which some candidates and their supporters were detained; Arafat loyalists reportedly pressured some independent candidates to withdraw, and there were also incidents of voter intimidation, particularly by the Israeli authorities in East Jerusalem. Certain candidates for the council were denied equal access to PA-controlled media.

Despite these measures and some irregularities reported in the tallying of votes, thirty-five seats went to independents.167 The winners included Faris Hamid Kadura of Ramallah and Hatem `Eid of Jerusalem, both independent candidates chosen by Fatah in its internal elections but later reportedly vetoed by Chairman Arafat. In Gaza City, Dr. Haidar Abd al-Shafi, known for his criticism of both the Israeli-PLO peace process and of Chairman Arafat, won the most votes.168 In the end, Fatah candidates backed by Chairman Arafat won only fifty-two seats.169 Chairman Arafat, running for president, easily defeated his only challenger, social activist Samiha Khalil.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1997/palestina/Israel-07.htm

As for gun-touting kiddies, I asked for evidence, y'know, links to credible sources detailing such things. I'd also be interested in seeing what the rules of engagement of the IDF are. I'm going to be a bit shocked if there's a rule that allows troops to open fire on kids throwing stones because they might be hiding a gun...

Can you tell me what danger UN workers, foreign journalists and peace activists have posed to the IDF? After all, they must pose a danger, or else they'd be like the settlers and the IDF wouldn't shoot at them. Or is assisting the Palestinian people or trying to report on what's going on there a mortal danger to the IDF?

No, neopatrimonial is not another way of saying dictatorship. They're different things. Democracies can also have neopatrimonial leaderships...

Violet...

[pelsar]

31. violet..so far your disappointing.....

just popped in for minute....

this conflict is very very complex and its constantly moving and changing. More than that politics are very much involved. To discuss it in an intelligent manner one must be very precise both in questionsn and answers.

my comment on "democracy" referred to ararfats election: that and only that is the subject, so stick to that please:

arafat won with over 80 percent of the vote and he was going against 73-year-old social activist Samirha Khalil

this is simply intrinsic evidence that the election process for the president was flawed. 80% and going against a political 'nobody"....you can be pro palestenian and hate us israelis its doesnt mean that not seeing the warts in the palestenians society is a bad thing, quite the contrary, one of their major problems and their "cheerleaders" is this lack of accountability for their "weak points."

secondly, shooting of kiddies in crowds: please read again what i wrote:

in the back alleys the palestenain shooters would start, and then from the crowd, the IDF would shoot back, sometimes with snipers sometimes not.

if you will noticed I mentioned that the IDF returns live fire AFTER being fired upon or upon seeing weapons (a gray area)...its has nothing to do with rocks being thrown. (usually rubber bullets, flash grenades are used for crowd control and rocks-(exceptions no doubt haveing happened.)

perhaps further detail are required, shooting is both a talent and a learned skill, shooting while your getting shot at is even more difficult. Put the enemy shooters in a crowd and its even more difficult.....however that was more than in the past then in the present...like I said things are constantly changing now and there are far fewer protests like those...and consequently far less shooting in those kind of environments.

[ashiebr]

34. "To discuss it in an intelligent manner one must be very precise"

I agree. Which is why I find your post particularly silly. Why do you just not admit that you are an Israeli propagandist?

President Arafat was elected by 87% of the popular vote in EU and US-certified "free and Fair" elections. Intrinsic evidence, I would have thought, of his undoubted popularity. Frankly, I would trust the EU and US election observers rather than Israeli propaganda. Call me old-fashioned, but.......................!

You then suggest that Israeli forces only ever fire after being fired on or upon seeing a weapon. That is not what the Mitchell Report said of Israeli Police when they turned the Intifada deadly. Is that what happened to the UN workers or to the journalists?

No-one minds arguing over opinion. But facts are sacred. Your post is propaganda and opinion. Do not even pretend it is factual.

[pelsar]

36. ashiebr...you have to do better....

I said be precise....and I wrote:

exceptions no doubt having happened.

if your looking for a "tit for tat" or who started what...that leads to nowhere, since you'll have to go back years, and there is no end to that.

my explanations of what happened during the past palestenian rock throwing protests were simply a description of how it went...again for those of us who have been, its simply a description of the "average protest." But those are no longer happening.

i have no doubt that the elections were "free"....at the sametime the compeition was not credible...thats what I am arguing.

[ashiebr]

39. "my explanations of what happened..............

during the past palestenian rock throwing protests were simply a description of how it went..."

Cobblers. They are propagandist statements straight out of the Israeli playbook - ie, it's all the fault of the Palestinians; all protesters are really just sheletering terrorists; we never mean to kill anyone inncocent really, but mistakes happen; what are they doing on the streets in the first place.....blah blah..."!

[Djinn]

43. Hi ashiebr

The playbook is long and varied but one of my personal favorites is:

"what are they doing on the streets in the first place....."

Obviously Palestinian children should stay at home 24/7 behind bullet proof walls, otherwise they're really to blame if they got shot coz it is a war zone, yet strangely the same (warped) logic is never applied to Israeli settlers - instead of being born in or being forced into an occupied area they MOVE to one and take their children.

Just another fun day in the I/P

BTW - welcome to DU!

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Gosh, I'm so sorry to disappoint you...

Nah, actually I'm absolutely apathetic on the whole disappointment or lack of disappointment thing. Sorry! :)

Yeah, I'm kind of aware that the conflict is pretty complex. Mind you, not so complex that it's impossible to understand it, and neither is it as some people would have folk believe, so lacking in complexity that either Israel or the Palestinians can be blamed for everything...

Glad you mentioned precision in discussing politics in an intelligent manner. That's why I pointed out to you that neopatrimonial isn't just another definition of dictorship. That's also why I posted a link to a report that found that the Palestinian elections were conducted in a generally free and fair manner. Did you read the link or what I posted from it? Here's a bit of a heads-up on discussing democratic elections, no matter where they are in the world. You can't take one election in isolation and hold it to a different standard than others, and then claim it's not democratic while ignoring the others. The Palestinian elections were for Palestinians, and they elected who they chose to be their leader. It wasn't an election for Israelis to pick who they wanted. Not sure if yr accusing me of *hating Israel* just because the warts I see in Arafat's leadership are different to the nonsense you posted about the actual elections. Maybe a bit more precision in wording is required here? ;)

Why read again what you wrote when you haven't answered what I asked in the first place, which was: 'As for gun-touting kiddies, I asked for evidence, y'know, links to credible sources detailing such things.' If I'd wanted unconfirmable anecdotal stories, I would have asked for them....

And btw, there are too many instances of the IDF opening fire with live bullets on unarmed Palestinians, UN workers, and peace activists for it to be ignored. Would you like links to documentation of some of these shootings?

Violet...

[pelsar]

56. gun touting kiddies....

or poorly written or poorly understood. the kids dont have the guns, but they defintily hang around those who do:

would several pictures taken by reuters showing kids around several palestenians shooting with their masks on with their AK -47s in Gaza be good enough? the byline was that they were shooting at israeli troops.

It is a very strange scene, yet in the reality of Gaza, not unknown. It seems to me that this should lay to rest at least one aspect of my arguement, is there any other proof that is required?

have some more info...its really not hard to find, and I was avoiding the jewish sites as well. So I'm quite lost here, you never new about this? or just never bothered to check?

three newspapers: jordan, london and the new york times.....

The Jordanian newspaper "Alrai" (citing an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper "Alzaman" on 20 June 2002), quotes Abu Mazen, Deputy Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, who spoke of how Palestinian children are being exploited into carrying out terror attacks:

"At least 40 children from the city of Raphah have lost their arms as a result of the explosions of pipe bombs. They received five Israeli shekels (about one U.S. dollar) for throwing them.

_____________________
The Palestinian Authority has provided children with military training. The New York Times reports that 25,000 children were trained in the summer 2000 in PA camps in the use of firearms, the making of Molotov cocktails, the methods of kidnapping Israeli leaders, and conducting ambushes. (New York Times - Aug. 3, 2000)
______________________
A Palestinian Authority tactic is to encourage children to seek heroic Shahada (martyrdom) -- and then use the numbers of dead children in their PR war against Israel. Sam Kiley describes in The London Times:

"Since birth, Palestinian children have been pumped full of religious fundamentalism which promises paradise for those who die for the cause of free Palestine... Approving or not, the Palestinian authorities have done nothing to stop children playing with their lives. Let's face it, dead kids make great telly." ("A Deadly Game" - Oct. 19, 2000)

???? you never knew? are these good enough?

[Violet_Crumble]

61. I was just about to commend you on the research for those quotes...

..and then, thanks to the joys of Google, I discovered that those three quotes in the exact same order, word for word, are liberally sprinkled on many 'pro-Israel' websites. (note: as I'm prone to posting from Jewish sites, I'm not aware that anyone has to avoid that, but then again there's a huge difference between Jewish sites and 'pro-Israel' sites)....

Back to the precision thing. Here's what you said in an earlier post: 'The palestenians stone throwers, have at times show up with guns as well.' Now you've changed it to the kids throwing stones are hanging round people who are armed. Oh-kay. Regardless, how does this justify the IDF opening fire on groups of children throwing stones? Is it acceptable to shoot at stone-throwing kids because *maybe* there might be an armed adult among them, and it's not up to the IDF to try to spot the difference between an armed adult and kids? Just curious, but is Amnesty International lying about the following reports of children being killed by the IDF, and in reality in each case, there were armed adults lurking behind the children? (note: the last two cases involved children who were not even involved in any stone-throwing)

Sami Fathi Abu Jazzar. On 10 October 2000 Amnesty International delegates witnessed the aftermath of a stone throwing demonstration in Rafah on the southern edge of the Gaza Strip. Israeli soldiers shot at a crowd of some 400 people, mostly primary schoolchildren, who were throwing stones at an Israeli military post. Sami Fathi Abu Jazzar was shot in the head; a live bullet entered his forehead above his left eyebrow, went through the skull diagonally and exited at the back of his head. He died the following day, on the eve of his 12th birthday. Six other children were injured by live fire in the same incident. Amnesty International delegates, including an expert in riot policing, concluded that the lives of Israeli soldiers were not in danger and that their use of lethal force was unjustified, as their position was not only heavily fortified, but there were also two wire fences between the post and the stone throwers, who were some 200 metres away.

Muhammad Ibrahim Hajaj, Ahmed Suleiman Abu Tayah and Ibrahim Reziq Omar, all 14 years of age, were shot dead and several other children were wounded on 1 November 2000 by the IDF in the Gaza Strip, on the road between Netzarim junction and the Karni crossing into Israel, in a place which over the past two years has been a regular demonstration site for children who gather to throw stones at IDF tanks and/or at the IDF tower. Muhammad Ibrahim Hajaj was shot in the neck and Ahmed Suleiman Abu Tayah and Ibrahim Reziq Omar were shot in the head and chest. All three died immediately. Several other children were wounded, including two 10-year-olds who were shot in the abdomen and in the right shoulder. According to eyewitnesses and to medical records, the children were fired on with live ammunition from a distance of about 150 metres.

Fifteen-year-old Muhammad Musbah Isma’il Abu Ghali was shot in the chest from an IDF jeep at Tuffah checkpoint in Khan Yunis, in the Gaza Strip, on the afternoon of 8 November 2000. Two UN staff members who were on their way back from the Mawasi area witnessed the shooting. According to one of them: "There was a group of children standing around the rubble of the demolished houses by the Tuffah checkpoint but they were not throwing stones or demonstrating. Two IDF jeeps arrived and after a moment a soldier fired a single shot which hit Muhammad in the chest and he fell. I knew the boy and I approached him and he said 'My bicycle key is in my pocket'. I asked him if he was OK and he didn't reply and pulled from his pocket the key, three photos and three shekels and then slumped back. The ambulance arrived to take him to hospital and he died on the way."

Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi. On 7 July 2001 three children were shot by IDF sniper fire as they were flying kites and playing soccer in an open space near the border fence at Rafah. Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi, age11, was killed by a high-velocity bullet in the head. Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain, age 10, and 13-year-old Suleiman Turki Abu Rijal were also shot and both sustained serious injuries in the abdomen and in the testicles, respectively. The shots came from an IDF post about 800 metres away, and the boys were in a large, open space. According to testimonies given to Amnesty International by Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain and by other children who were present at the time of the incident, there were no disturbances or clashes in the area at that time. The IDF claimed that there had been rioting and throwing of fragmentation grenades in the area at the time, but confidential IDF records showed that this was untrue. On 8 November 2001, the IDF informed the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem that it had decided not to initiate an investigation of the incident because there was no suspicion of criminal behaviour by the soldiers. However, a file was attached to the IDFs response, apparently in error, which contained internal records of the IDFs operational de-briefings and the opinions of the IDF Southern Command Judge Advocate and of the Chief Military Prosecutor. These documents, which have been made public by B'Tselem, show that the IDF, in spite of the evidence, decided not to order a Military Police investigation and cleared the soldiers who killed Khalil al-Mughrabi and injured the two other children, and that in its response to B’Tselem the IDF deliberately presented an incorrect version of the incident.(8)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde020052002

[pelsar]

63. Violet..my precision....

Back to the precision thing. Here's what you said in an earlier post: 'The palestenians stone throwers, have at times show up with guns as well.'

then that was my mistake, though that has happened, I meant to keep it to the usual scenario, rocks from kids, with the older ones appearing later with guns

the ROE have changed over the years...it presently stands at: any palestenian carrying a weapon is to be shot. (the PA has to keep them in the stations). Unarmed kids are to be warned with warning shots. Kids that threaten lives (bombs, moltov cocktails guns-14 yr olds have attacked a settlement), look outs, recon, are all to be shot.

as far as the unarmed kids being killed....your not going to get me to justify it, I can surmise some psychological explanations....but probably the best realistic explanation is that the longer a war goes on the 'cheaper life gets. " Does it justify it in a modern society? no....is it the reality of the human character?.....yes.

The IDF is going to protect its own, as do all groups. The IDF is neither better nor worse than any other western army. Armies do not like to prosecute their own for killing since that is what they are trained to do...as much as a civilian would like to place civilian laws within an army, it doesnt work that way....All modern armies are now trying to figure out how to fight terrorism within civilian populations along with the fatigue factor.

I will tell you however, why most israelis want out of the terrirtories, its not because it "illegal" or any other word game, nor is it because we "care' about the palestenians or amensties report. We know what the occupation is doing to our own kids..how its destroying them from the inside....and thats why most of us want out.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. Finally...something we agree on...

as far as the unarmed kids being killed....your not going to get me to justify it, I can surmise some psychological explanations....but probably the best realistic explanation is that the longer a war goes on the 'cheaper life gets. " Does it justify it in a modern society? no....is it the reality of the human character?.....yes.

I could surmise some psychological explanations, and they probably wouldn't be much different than those you'd come up with, and I think you got the main one with life becoming cheap....

The IDF is neither better nor worse than any other western army.

Most likely they're not. It'd be hard to argue that they're worse than the US military. But rules of engagement do differ between western states, and some of those are better than others. I know Australia has much stricter rules of engagement than either the US or Israel when it comes to the possibility of civilian casualties, which is why one of our pilots refused US orders to carry out a bombing mission in Baghdad at the start of that invasion because he wasn't convinced that there were no civilians at risk...

I will tell you however, why most israelis want out of the terrirtories, its not because it "illegal" or any other word game, nor is it because we "care' about the palestenians or amensties report. We know what the occupation is doing to our own kids..how its destroying them from the inside....and thats why most of us want out.

There's nothing word-gamish about saying the occupation is illegal. It's a fact. However, under the current circumstances I don't expect Palestinians to care about Israelis or reports from international human rights groups, so I can hardly expect it from Israelis. Fear rules and when people see their own being killed, whether they're Israeli or Palestinian, they tend to focus on that and not on the suffering of the other group. That's a reason why the occupation has to end - for there to be peace, both groups of people are going to have to start caring about the other. While there's some on both sides that do that already, there's not nearly enough of them...

On the effect of the occupation on the younger generation of Israelis - it wouldn't be healthy at all, and I can totally understand the resentment felt by some Israelis at young Israelis having their lives put at risk by being sent to the Occupied Territories to protect settlers, some of who view the IDF as their own personal security force to protect them while they commit crimes against the Palestinian population...

Violet...

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Englander]

33. No pictures in this forum,dude.....

Unfortunately malicious propaganda is allowed,so the rest of your post will remain. The claims you make are complete nonsense,and have no basis in reality.The IDF murdered completely innocent UN staff,journos & ISMers,in the same way that they murder completely innocent Palestinian children.

And if the cameraman is actually Palestinian,he'll be a legitimate target...

"Impossible to ignore evidence of Israeli targeting of journalists"
International Federation of Journalists, report, 21 April 2003
http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/7/1388

[pelsar]

35. Englander....

On what basis do you claim what I have written is:

malicious propaganda"

what do you actually know of the conflict?....or of any kind of stressful situation when your life is at danger?

have you ever asked or talked to anyone who has been in those kind of situations what they see and or dont see?

my claims are partially based on personal experience as well as 2nd hand info from others who have been, i would wonder if you can claim anything similar?

if you want to claim that the IDF targets journalists you'll have to do better than "my claim is nonsense"...go find some numbers, compare that to the number of actual clashes where they are present and then you'll have to explain why its so low...and then compare that to other conflicts.....which I showed in my links how israel is low on the listing of where journalists are killed.

I am hardly an israeli propagandist..just somebody who has been there, which I suspect is more than you have, however if I am wrong please feel free to correct me, as I am sure if you have experiences there, it would prove interesting.

[Englander]

37. Where I or you have been to is beside the point,old chum..

of course,I have no way of knowing or verifying what you say.

Journos- the numbers killed is again,irrevelant,my grievance is with the fact that in this case,James Miller,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x80452
http://www.justice4jamesmiller.com/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,948548,00.html

he was murdered,with no mitigating circumstances,no stressful situations,no battlefield conditions. He was deliberately targeted,and those responsible are yet to be held to account.

UN ambulances-if you have "proof" they're being used to carry weapons,maybe you should do your civic duty and pass such information on
to the attorney-general and start a prosecution of UNHCR..

ISM activist- Again,in this case,Tom Hurndall,

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/people/213.shtml

he was deliberately targeted,no exchance of gunfire,no stressful situation,can you tell me why he was shot in the head by a sniper?

[pelsar]

38. a bit of reality

James Miller....walking at night holding a white flag wiht a "light" in the middle of a battle zone in the most sniper ridden area in Gaza.....while in the area were tanks, apcs etc...with all their noise and confusion....(battles have ebs and flows...when its quiet, its very very tense...)-thats what I understand of the environment of the time.

you try it ....go to highway/major street walk in the middle of it....hold a flag and light, and yell if you like...see if you dont get hit.


and Tom Hurndall....it appears a soldier made the wrong decision, it happens in life everyday, the problem in a warzone is that mistakes costs lives

"the military court of the Southern Command issued an indictment against the soldier suspected in the shooting in which Hurndall was injured. The soldier is charged on six counts: aggravated bodily assault, two counts of obstruction of justice, one count of submitting false information, enticement to submit false information and un-becoming conduct."


stress? guess you dont know it, but everytime an israeli soldier enters gaza hes under stress, thats what happens in war zones. And every journalist, activists should know that, and they should know that the orange vests are not bullet proof..

here I'll give you some more info: a moving APC/tank creats a lot of dust+ plus radio chatter from 3 different sources, machine gun fire is not very accurate, the sun and its reflections can turn orange vests into "brown", soldiers make life and death decisions in seconds that they've never made before, mistakes are made......and they are responsable for their team behind them, more so than the enemy or journalist or activists in front....and the activist should know this or they shouldnt be there.

thats the reality of life in a war zone.....for the very few that were killed, its sad...unfortunatly war zones are like that. If they were targeted as policy...your list would be a lot longer.


as far as the UN ambulances....the above pict , in my previous post, was taken by a Reuters TV cameraman....but its political so nothing will be done....

or
Rep. Eric Cantor, R-Va., chairman of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, recently documented how "buildings and warehouses under UNRWA supervision are allegedly being used as storage areas for Palestinian ammunition and counterfeit currency factories."

its really not new.....why the surprise?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

46. ashiebr...Englander.....

First of all though I appreciate the "back handed complement" to the IDF, that its simply cant make mistakes.... its really not true. Its seems, and this is just my impression of course, that both of you are victims of the IDF "can do no wrong" syndrom.....I realize that this came out of the 6 day war, as well as 73 (that even after mistakes the IDF is "invincible") as well as Entebee, etc...however sadly to say its not true.

we actually do mistakes....(but thanks anyway, I do appreciate it)

now from what I understand, you two have never been either to Gaza or the Westbank. Which means your information is simply from what is written in which ever papers/sites you choose to read from. Obviously this makes it difficult to really understand the complex and multi level relationship that is going on between the israelis and palestenians, since you've never actually been here.

Perhaps I can suggest that since it seems my on the ground experiences are so easily dismissed, perhaps its time that you also get some? And when you return we will then have a lot to discuss. In fact you will probably be very curious about many things the IDF does.

Just a passing note, I find talking to palestenians who actually live there, to be far more constructive as we both can fill in the "holes" of what we dont know from our one sided view, and we also respect our different viewpoints...something strangly missing your comments.

and a question as i find the remarks on my posts very inaccurate:

"Once again,a pro-Israeli poster supports the...murder of unarmed civilians"

since all I was doing was explaining the circumstances of many of the shootings I find it rather difficult to find where you find that conclusion.

Now i am rather new here at DU, so I am curious is this is the general modem of operation. A poster posts something, and then the comments seem to have very little or no real relation to the actual content?.... no real disussion follows......i find this rather odd.

[ashiebr]

49. you two have never been either to Gaza or the Westbank.

I don't have to put my hand in a fire to know that it's hot.

Actually sunshine, most Israelis have never been to the West Bank or Gaza.

[pelsar]

50. ashiebr...

but if your going to claim that what i write is not true...and since it is based on actual experiences in both the westbank and gaza, it would be a good idea for you to go.

Since your knowledge of the actual happenings is limited through readings there is a lot you cant possibly know.

its akin to reading about scuba diving and then telling a scuba diver with 10 years of experience what to do.....I assume you wouldnt do that, yet for some odd reason when it comes to the gaza and the westbank....somehow personal experience is not relevant?

bizareee to say the least. And yes most israelis have not been to gaza nor the westbank, nor do they even want to go there...but the discussion here is with me, and I have been.

[drdon326]

51. Excellent post....

and you're still my hero.

[ashiebr]

52. You have no more relevance...........

....than any other person with first-hand experience - be they journalists, activists, tourists, Palestinians etc.

Most of what we know of life is 2nd-hand. But we can believe trustworthy sources.

That you have been to WBG does not alter the fact that Israel is occupying Palestine, building illegal settlements and generally behaving like the worst kind of colonial master.

[pelsar]

53. ashiebr...

my experiences are very very different from those of journalists, activists tourists etc....just reading the posts here and the reactions to me shows me that. In fact if you talk to any one of the above all will give you different accounts of what they see, hear and feel. Not only that the experienes in Gaza and the west bank themselves are very different. Plus I obviously know things that they could never know (military briefings on what to expect...)

Trustworthy sources?...from what I have read here, and from what I, as a member of the IDF have been accused of, i would question those "trustworthy sources".

Like I mentioned earlier, my most interesting discussions have been with those who have acutally been there and not with those who write from 2nd and 3rd sources. Infact many times I have come across and "trustworthy article, and find it completely backwards...

and in fact your last sentence hints at your lack of experiences: israel is behaving like the worst kind of colonial master.

I suspect you belive that...ok fair enough. Obviously this is just an acedemic exercise but it could prove interesting.

whats say we find some other colonial type govts and look how they are under similar circumstances?....after all you are comparing. Now I can fill in on what you dont know as far as the mosiac and complex relationships between the palesteniains and israelis.....and then we can decide if israel is the "worst kind".....

you game?

one note: I am not claiming that its good, I'm just claiming that there have been worst "colornial govts".

at least then we can remove one stereotype from the DU

some to look at:
British in Palestine
British in India
Austrailians to the natives
Belgian Congo

these are obviously in the not so distant past, but even now....
Morroca and the west sahara...
sudan
Russian and chechnia

and those are just from memory. I'm sure if I looked it up we could easily find places where the death toll is far beyond that of the israeli/palestine conflict.

so how do you measure "the worst kind"...death tolls (we dont even registar)...home destroyed? russia destroys whole villages and cities....

?????

[ashiebr]

54. Good to see that you wish to measure Israel.............

.......by the standards of 17th/18th and 19th century colonialism.

At least we are making progress.

I used to have the "You can't comment until you've visited" argument with South Africans during Apartheid. They also only wanted "people to see the truth".

It was a bollocks argument then. It's a bollocks argument now.

[pelsar]

55. ashiebr...

your read far too much into what I write....nor are you very precise....

critisim of israel or the palestenian society is reasonable...but as I have seen here, and this includes you, the reality on the ground and what you believe to be are too very different things.

and since you belive so strongly, I would suggest you go and visit, it may make you hate israelis even more, it may not, but at least your views will be more realistic.

Russian and Chechnia are happening today....as I understand you the palestenian/israeli conflict is worse?

how the morrocans treat the natives of west sahara today.....that is better?

you made the accusation that the israelis are the worst...nows the time to back it up.

[ashiebr]

58. "The reality on the ground and what you believe...

...to be are too (sic) very different things".

In your opinion. I value the opinion of other more, since they are not propagandists nor apologists for brutal behaviour.

"I would suggest you go and visit, it may make you hate israelis even more"

Ahhh...now we get to it. Condemn the action of the IDF and you...yes..."hate Israelis". What a sad, but predictable tactic.

And of course we now have inserted into the argument the old standby of the Israeli propagandists.....yes, it's the Morrocans in Western Sahara. Why can you apologist propagandists not just concentrate on the area and the subject in question......WBG and the illegal Israeli occupation?

P.S. Read my posts and show me where I said the Israelis were "The Worst".

[pelsar]

59. ashibar....here

building illegal settlements and generally behaving like the worst kind of colonial master.

seems to be a pretty blanket statement saying the israelis are the worst...worst generally meanst exactly that....they are the worst.

as i see it , it means that russias actions in chechnia is "not as bad as the israelis"....or have i misinterpered you?

so far it has been you who has been very busy attempting to put me into one of your "stereotypes: be it "propagandist, apologists, etc.....and it seems, as far as I can tell you have never talked to an israeli reservists and are trying very very hard not to have a decent discussion...why is that? or learn why we do what we do....why?

oh yea...if your going to quote me, please have the integrety to use the complete quote or at least its whole meaning:

I wrote: I would suggest you go and visit, it may make you hate israelis even more, it may not... you forgot to put on the last part of my sentence.. when you do that you change the meaning of my sentence, so I am at a lose to understand why you only quoted half of my sentence in order to get a different meaning?......

why?

[ashiebr]

62. That is not even close...............

........to your suggestion that I called Israel "The Worst".

I have been told by the mods to quit the "apologist", "propagandist" stuff, so I will and apologies to all for breaking the DU rules.

On your final point; logically, if I am able to hate Israelis "more", I must, ipso facto, hate Israelis at the moment. I assure you, I do not. I am close to that with the present government's policies towards the Palestinians and I personally loathe Sharon for exacerbating the situation. He promised peace and prosperity. He has brought nothing but bloodshed and economic ruin to both sides. But I'll put it down to bad syntax rather than an accusation.

[Englander]

67. Well,in the cases of the 2 UK citizens I mentioned...

the IDF are to be congratulated on their pin-point accuracy;

James Miller was wearing a helmet and bullet-proof vest,with a collar.He was shot in the neck,in the v-shaped gap between the collar,which sounds to me like being deliberately targeted.
"What was he doing there?"
Making this film,which shows how the intifada and occupation affects the lives of Palestinian children growing up in Gaza.If he had lived,the second part of the film,which was to have shown how Israeli children are affected,would have gone into production;

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/death_in_gaza/

As for the amount of journalists killed in Gaza/West Bank,I frankly,find it amazing that more are not killed;I've seen news reports where the IDF uses stun grenades and "warning shots" against journalists and camera crews.

Again,it is irrelevant as to where I have travelled to in the World;
the Occupation of Gaza and West Bank is still illegal.I imagine it would still be illegal if I were to visit.

The use of the phrase "malicious propaganda"-
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3177.shtml

Israel's 'malicious propaganda' endangers UN staff
Report, UNRWA, 4 October 2004

JERUSALEM – Peter Hansen, Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has written a strongly-worded protest to Silvan Shalom, Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs, demanding an apology for allegations made against UNRWA's ambulance drivers in the Gaza Strip. Israel's military and its ambassador to the United Nations have alleged that it has footage of a Palestinian rocket being transported in an UNRWA ambulance. An investigation by UNRWA and analysis of the footage has established that the object in question was a patient stretcher.

"It is appalling that, with the serious conflict now raging in the Northern Gaza Strip, where UNRWA ambulances are operating in constant danger alongside those of other humanitarian agencies to try to save and transport scores of wounded Palestinians to hospital, the Government of Israel would put out such deliberately inciteful, false and malicious propaganda, encouraging IDF soldiers on the ground (or in the air) to think that UNRWA ambulances and other humanitarian vehicles are transporting terrorists and weapons."

[pelsar]

68. englander....this lost me

As for the amount of journalists killed in Gaza/West Bank,I frankly,find it amazing that more are not killed;I've seen news reports where the IDF uses stun grenades and "warning shots" against journalists and camera crews.


so what does this mean?....the whole idea of using stun grenades and warning shots is to get them out of the area. Perhaps you have a better working suggestion as to how to tell them to move when "they dont listen very well, when they are told to?

just a real working suggestion, no propaganda, got any real suggestions?

But what are you amazed at, that the soldiers dont target them? or that the warning shots dont hit them? or what?

[Englander]

70. And why should the IDF want to stop,disrupt or prevent....

camera crews and journalists from bearing witness to their actions?

Why should it be the business of the IDF to try to move journalists,why should the IDF want to censor what the outside world sees?

[pelsar]

71. englander....

really it goes back to that experience thingy...when bullets fly, they fly ALL OVER..they rebound they ricochet (ever see picts of palestenians shooting their aks around corners without looking?)...ever see a soldier return fire when hes not sure where the fire is coming from?....hes half panicked and will start shooting at anything the resembles a gun pointed at him.

and if those journalists get hit...well, what would your response be? or rather what has it been?

I think that explains it pretty clearly?

now the question i have to you, if my response is not reasonable and understandable, why not?

[QueerJustice]

100. thank g-d

[Forkboy]

29. The settlers must be a blast at parties!

[sushi]

66. Haven't visited I/P Affairs for a while

Still the same. No progress. Palestinians are still suffering.

Questions for pelsar. Why doesn't Israel just leave the OT? Do you, pelsar, agree that God gave you that land?

[pelsar]

69. Sushi....

no i dont believe in god....I believe that god is the source of most of the killing in the world, and if we could get rid of her, there might be a chance for world peace.....

why doesnt israel just leave the westbank and gaza? To give you an idea of why, is to just go through the posts here. If will notice I have been "attacked" from all sides. Now I am whats what is referred to as a moderate israeli leftest. Meaning I have no problem in giving up the westbank, gaza, intl jerusalem etc. Peace will have to come though me.

however, the second I open my mouth or in this case my computer, and even remotly attempt to explain "my side" I find myself under attack, it seems just about nobody here is actually curious about how we see things, what worries us.....ahh and the response will be no doubt that: "you israelis are the strong" we are worried about the palestenians, the ones who are being kicked around."

but you see, i see beyond the meer present, I look back to 2,000 years of being kicked around, today, I look over to saudi arabia, to syria, even to france, what do I see?...that the blood libels against the jews and israelis continue..... and I wonder, I just came to talk to discuss to explain on an "liberal" website, and I dont even have a chance to....That to me is very significant

but one point is important so that there isnt any kind of misinterperation: I do NOT feel the victim, no longer, and I no longer intend to play the part either.

now i know I didnt explain directly because if I do, I can already see the response. What I did is give you a hint as to what my environment is like, not the physical the psychological.

[sushi]

72. How many like you are there....

I wonder how many Israelis are hiding behind God. The settlers especially, or I should say the settlers I see on TV, usually bring God into their tirades against the Palestinians. Some of them seem very rough and aggressive. People say you can't reason with the Palestinian extremists, well, you can't reason with these aggressive settlers either!

Yes, I really should go through all the posts, but I think I'd just read stuff I've heard before. You are still occupying the Palestinians' land. Nothing has changed, pelsar, except that Arafat is gone. Will your PM negotiate now, or will he come up with another reason not to?

What makes you think nobody here is curious about how you see things and what worries you? That is simply not true!!! We all want the Palestinians to have their own country and Israel to be secure. And then we want to move on to another part of the world. This conflict has taken far too much of the world's time for far too long! And yes, you are the strong side, we do worry about the Palestinians, because you are kicking them around!

...I have no problem in giving up the westbank, gaza, intl (what does intl mean?) jerusalem etc.

Really? Are you for the Right of Return too? How many like you are there in Israel?

Peace will have to come though me.

I don't understand this sentence.

So you "look back to 2,000 years of being kicked around..."

Meaning what? Are you saying that now Israel would not hesitate to kick the Palestinians around for a long time too?

I look over to saudi arabia, to syria, even to france, what do I see?...that the blood libels against the jews and israelis continue...

Why do you think that is? Is it always other people's fault? Your people make no mistakes? Any mistake you make should be forgiven because of what you suffered in the past? I do wonder why there are so many people against the Jews. Can you tell me why that is? I haven't found a satisfactory answer yet.
:)

[pelsar]

73. Sushi....

my views are according to the polls and those I meet are the majorities...first to answer some of your questions:

westbank, gaza and giving jersualem an intertnational status or give the palestenians some soverignty so that can have their capital there as well.

by going through me, I mean that I have to be convinced that the palestenains once they have their state are not going to start importing artillary and mortors, continue the blood libles etc and threaten me, either directly or indirectly. Otherwise were going to find ourselves in this very same position in a few years.

my comment that for 2000+ years we were kicked around goes to our mindset. Most of the "modern worlds countries at one point or another kicked us out, had anti semetic laws etc. We dont want to be under their thumb nor do we really trust them to decide our fate for us, we finally have a say in it.

the blood libles (jews drink muslim blood, control the world etc)....I really dont care whos "fault it is, in fact its irrelevant. I just dont believe I have to hear about them, read about them, be threatened by them I dont think any people should, there is simply no excuse for it...and its been going on for 1,000+ of years, and its govt sponsered.

you ask if we makes mistakes as a people? of course zillions of them, but then so do all, so I dont see that as relevant.

why does anti semetism exist?...I just see it as we're the kid in class with the koodies, you know the one you pick on for no good reason.

and finally the right of return.....thats actually not even a real issue neither with the palestenians nor with the israelis (surprised?) The palestenians long ago recieved a definitive no on that issue, as that influx would destroy israel, either via politics or violence. Life simply isnt fair sometimes and the world of 1940-1948 was a very cruel world. Compensation? probably after peace is well established, but the issue realistically, no matter how many times people may bring it up, isnt even a issue.

I have to clarify something again, as it seems I wasnt clear enough in my last post:
I am no longer a victim, I do not blame anybody, I do not feel sorry for my past, I am a part of a strong people who have in two generations gone from the ashes of aushwitz to a local military powerhouse.

The palestenians were given a raw deal, not as bad as what we got, but life isnt fair. And they will have to deal with it. Peace will eventually come, but it includes more than just the palestenianians and us, it includes their neighbors as well, Iran, syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc and all those govts who are egging them on, all of those with little stereotypes of jews and israelis as arab/muslim blood drinkers

a final note of the settlers who are extremists, the ones who make good TV....there is very little difference between them in terms of speach, dress and action and your typical hamasnik......

[drdon326]

74. Damn straight......

"I mean that I have to be convinced that the palestenains once they have their state are not going to start importing artillary and mortors"

And theyre really making progress toward that end.:eyes:
(/sarcasm)



"all of those with little stereotypes of jews and israelis as arab/muslim blood drinkers"


speaking as a fellow "pig and monkey" you nailed it

100% as far as I am concerned.


And you're STILL my hero.

[sushi]

75. What will it take

for you and your people to be convinced that the Palestinians, once they have their state, are not going to start importing artillery...etc, and threaten you? I guess for you to feel safe you would have to run their country for them, right?

If all the neighbours must be involved, and all those who are 'egging them on,' and all those with little stereotypes of jews and israelis..., how long, in your opinion, will it take before there can be peace between Israel and the Palestinians?

It sure sounds like you (Israel) is not serious about making peace with the Palestinians anytime soon. I wonder how your PM plans to torpedo GBW's proposal for a Palestinian state by 2009(?)

Yes, Israel is a military powerhouse, but until you get along with your neighbors you will not feel secure.

[pelsar]

76. to feel safe.......

yes I do believe it is my right to be able to feel safe in my country. I also feel it is my right to no longer hear from my neighbors official govt news paper and radio and TV that i drink muslim blood during passover, etc. (history has show us that those words can lead to very nasty deads and the "please dont hit me" method didnt appear to work very well)

and i do believe that the future palestenian state will not have the right to threaten me.

so far I believe that these are basic rights.

lets stop right here for a minute...ignoring conflicts etc. Do you have a problem with me and my family having any of these rights in principle?

and please dont put "words in my mouth" from your writings it apppears that you dont really understand what motivates us israelis. I will be happy to explain....

[sushi]

77. Everybody has the right

to feel safe in his/her country, or even when abroad! My question was what does Israel feeling safe and secure means for the Palestinians? If that means you really have to run their country for them (otherwise you can't feel completely safe), then there'll never be a Palestinian state, because they will not agree to that! At least, I don't think they will. What do you think?

You say I don't really understand what motivates you. Here is what I know/understand/think from everything I've read and see on TV. Please tell me where I'm wrong.

I think Israelis are divided. That's normal. Look at Ukraine now. And the US. In short, some of you dream of what is called a "Greater Israel," and they will never give up that dream. In order for that to happen, ideally all the Palestinians must move, or "be persuaded to move" away (to Jordan?), and if that is totally impossible, they'd, reluctantly, give up as little occupied land as possible. Others, like you, don't mind a state for the Palestinians, as long as your security is guaranteed. Which side is stronger?

As for feeling secure - there are no guarantees, but isn't being a strong military power good enough? Nobody has 100% safety, unless you want to stay home all day every day, but then the roof could collapse, or you could choke on food, or quarrel with a relative and one stabs the other or,...

Have to go.

[pelsar]

78. safe and secure.....what it means

the general concensus in israel is the over riding need for long term security...and that means for the whole region to stop with the anti-jew/israeli stuff. That goes beyond "mere peace with the palestenians, for that peace will be short lived if we dont include the region as well.

what is security for us? its not 100% no violence. ITS THE PSYCHOLOGY.

On March 13, 1997, a jordanian soldier opened fire on a school outing and killed 7 israeli school children. King Jordan came to those bereaved families and sat with them. That was a big moment for us, recognition of our humanus.

thats our security, recognition that we are just as human as the muslim next door and that we are his equal.

No we dont want to rule over the Palestinians, but neither are we naive. We know very well that constant hammering of books/movies/TV programs/speeches that we are less than humans will NOT provide us with security...and yes this time (finally) we actually have something to do about it.

The Palestinian state will not come in a single moment, it will probably have to built up slowly so that we can watch over it. Why? well after 55+ years of warfare, that includes 2 if not 3 attempts to destroy us, were not too trusting of our neighbors, nor would anyone else in our shoes. Yes they will have to prove to us that they are capable of having an entity that does not include their leaders screaming for 1 million shaihidim to march on jersualem (for some reason it doesnt strike me as good neighborly relations), in fact eventually they are also going to have to tell their brethren in saudi arabia and iran to simply "shut up" with the anti jew/israeli crap, because it disturbing their relationship with israel.

thats what it all about.....

When we feel secure, so too will the palestenians because it means that we trust each other, and its not about bombs and bullets, its about a relationship that works. (for an example, our imperfect one with jordan is a start....)

Now please dont start with the why should they trust us etc. For one, they have no choice, they are on the loosing side, and it might be a good idea for them to try a different tact. The armed struggle thing is a loosing strategy, in case you didnt notice.

and secondly, they are playing into our strong point. Intifada II has made israel in terms of consensus far stronger and less divided than its been in years. and that is not good since it means we are then defending and protecting many of our extreme settlers.

Hint: they should try non violence (no rocks, no stones)

[idontwantaname]

79. not that i want to add to a thread gone wild but...

would you consider the relationship between palestine and israel relatively peaceful in the years between intifada I and II?

[pelsar]

81. between I and II

though both sides broke many sides of the agreement (for example: israel continued to expand settlements, the PAs "security forces" were about twice as large as agreed to, and the incitement never stopped, but it was toned downed....actually there were more violations on both sides but thats not material at this point)

but despite the violations on both sides, this was the first time that israelis and palestenians were actually talking about practical things, working and living together, coordinating various aspects of life etc. So that part was actual new as well as hopeful.

but you mention "relatively" peaceful...and thats the proper word "relative".

[idontwantaname]

82. thats how it was in israel and thats how it was written...

many who speak of time between intifadas do not mention what things were like on the palestinian end of things.

the illegal settlement building activity actually accelerated severing palestinians from their homes and or land.

then the "occupied" terrirories moved closer to becomming the "disputed" territories... the fear that 1 or 2 state solutions would be impossible with increased settlement building...*
to anyone these activities would be hard pressed to be called "relatively peaceful".

i recognize the intifada is no solution to the problem but i believe some palestinians felt theyve tried to give peace a chance and the settlements is what they got... some have since changed their positions since.


*not positive the total # of settles... just a poor estimate.
187,000 according to:
www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

[pelsar]

86. relativly peaceful....

its relative.....what you mentioned was the palestenian view.valid...now take a look at the israeli point of view...also valid.

whereas my kids started what we called a peace curilcum in school to start educating them towards peace, TV programs full of peace expectations, we didnt see such a thing on the palestenian side. In fact we didnt seem much in terms of the palestenians preparing their next generation to be living peacefully with us....

you see its called "tit for tat" Whereas the palestenians get pretty upset at losing their land, we get pretty upset when were still shown as being less than human.

isnt that a value? at least to us it is, something about basic inalienable right to be seen as a human being. While we had palestenians on our talk shows, where PA personalities were on a first name basis with the radio interviewers...israelis were never interviewed on PA TV or radio? why? well we actually do know the anserwer to that dont we?...it would make us human in the eyes of the palestenian!

like I said you can go for "who violated more aspects in both spirit and deed" or you can look at how each society looks at the other.....despite the violations....thats a good indicator of its character.

and just as many palestenians feel they tried...so too do we, and we feel that our reward was the suicide bombers.

and the most accurate count of the settlers is via the peace now movement.

[Violet_Crumble]

89. This concern about being seen as human...

Don't you think Palestinians have this same concern? After all, Israeli MKs have made disgusting statements about the Palestinians...


Violet...

[ashiebr]

80. It was relatively peaceful.......

...and Israel used that peace to build new, and extend existing, illegal settlements.

[sushi]

90. You want to be sure

of longterm security, and for the whole region to stop with the ant-jew/israeli stuff before a state for the Palestinians is possible? That won't happen for a very long time, maybe generations, if at all!
Why worry about the namecalling by the Palestinians and other people in the region? Don't Israelis also call them names? For example, I have read, I think right here on DU, that (some) Israelis call Palestinians dogs!

You also speak of wanting equality (...recognition that we are just as human as the muslim next door and that we are his equal, but then further down in your post you want the Palestinian state built slowly so that you can watch over it, and they have no choice, they are on the losing side, and it might be a good idea for them to try a different tact. Were you talking about equality, pelsar? You are contradicting yourself.

No, the armed struggle has definitely not given the Palestinians what they want, but it hasn't been good for the Israeli economy either, has it. Investors don't like political instablity. So until there is peace, both sides will suffer.

Any idea how your PM plans to torpedo Bush's proposal for a Palestinian state in four years?

[pelsar]

92. sushi.....to further explain....

the equality thingy....the 'contradiction".

i have no problem with the individual palestenian, I do have a problem with their present society as a whole, and the greater arab world. That "name calling" dehumanizes us, and thats the first step a human takes before they can kill.

I am talking about a process, I dont expect the jew hating to stop before a palestenain state is established in saudi arabia and iran, but I do expect the official organs of the PA to put a stop to the anti jew/israeli stuff in their society (BTW it looks like they are now trying). It seems to me thats a minimum of respect I should get as a human....it really doesnt seem so much to ask for, is it?

but you know what I want? i want to see an PA TV crew go up to an israeli at a checkpost and interview him, live. I want PA radio to call up some israeli mom and ask her how she feels about her son in the army, i want beir zeit university to invite a israeli professor to give a lecture on israeli society.....why dont those things happen? we do it?

the equality thing:

But also to clarity I am not talking about individuals calling palestenians dogs, jews as monkeys.... I am talking about official govt newspapers/movies and other types of media. That you wont find in israels main stream press, but you do in the arab world. I know it will take time to remove it, and it will have to come through the palestenians, they will have to demand that it stop, so you see, we need them as well.

the present situation has made the palestenian lives miserable, its toll on the israeli economy also hasnt been good, but the real damage is to our kids...and that is not so easy to repair.....

[sushi]

94. I want...I want...I want...

You want this, that, and the other before you'd agree to a state for them? That sounds like a whole lot of conditions. It smacks of arrogance, pelsar, and you demand all that because you can, because you're so powerful, and they can do nothing about it. This attitude contributes to the hatred, imo.

The only thing they have with which to fight you is the people who are willing to kill themselves, or willing to be brainwashed into killing themselves. I have seen interviews with them. I expected to see wild-eyed and uneducated and dirty-looking crazies, but they looked completely normal. They looked like smart students, were polite, calm, articulate and determined. It's the settlers I've seen interviewed that seemed wild, and demanding, and arrogant, and condescending, and patronizing. And they claim God gave them that land. I also remember an Israeli political commentator, journalist, or historian (I can't remember) who said that the people who hide behind God ("We will stay here forever because God gave us this land") belong in a mental institution, but the problem is there are so many of them.

Because you invite Palestinians on your radio/TV, you demand that they do the same? Why? Maybe they're not interested. Why should they be like you? You want to force them to do what you want, and if they don't, then you won't negotiate. That's it, isn't it! Are you thinking of equality or do you really wish to lord it over them, now and preferably forever? Btw, care to answer my question - any idea how your PM will torpedo Bush's plan for a Palestinian state by 2009?

Your PM (I understand he is called the father of the settlements) wants to pull out of Gaza, but the settlers are fighting him and, I read, even threaten to hurt him. If you're not careful, your society will fall apart, and then what happens to your very powerful country?

I really don't understand why many in the Arab world don't want Israel to be where it is now. Why do you think that is? After all you are the same people, aren't you? You are all Semites. You are really brothers! Only the religion is different.

[pelsar]

95. sushi....what i(we) want

bottom line? we want to be recognized as human beings by the arab world.....you tell me is that too much to ask?

thats what all my "conditions are all about". I dont believe I have to stand to being accused of spreading aids throughout the world, drinking palestenian blood for passover etc.

we still remember what happens when our environment is such that we are "less than human" and simply dont have to accept it this time....should we?

as far as sharon goes, this is his last term as pm so I have no idea, nor does anyone what will happen afterwards.

and judging us by the settlers is like me judging the palestenians by the islamic jihad....
or didnt that occur to you?

if you want to compare the avg palestenian, to an israeli, then do just that, and listen to them and you will find them to be articulate, modern and reasonable as well.

as far as my attitude of "what I want"...yea it is an "attitude, given the fact that since the beginning of israel our neighbors have wished for and tried several times to destroy us....I do have an attitude....nor do I apologise for it. Maybe they should for their actions?

[sushi]

96. Who cares what they say

So what if the ignorant among them say idiotic things. That is nothing compared to you denying them an acceptable homeland.

...judging us by the settlers is like me judging the Palestnians by the Islamic Jihad...if you want to compare the avg Palestinian to an Israeli, then do just that, and listen to them and you will find them to be articulate, modern and reasonable as well.

There's no need to compare. Everybody knows that there are good and bad, reasonable and unreasonable people, on both sides! Not all Israelis are good, and not all Palestinians are bad. Yes, they have killed your people, and you have killed their people. In fact haven't you killed more of them than they have of yours? Maybe I'm wrong, why don't you tell me!

I think your side wants everything on your terms, because of what you have been through in the past. I think that your small country wants to boss around the bigger countries in the neighborhood. Does that sound right to you? I guess, being so powerful(!), you can wait until all your 'wants' have been satisfied, but maybe by that time they will have outnumbered you and you will face another big problem!

[pelsar]

97. sushi

those "ignorent idiotic things" are newspaper editors, ex heads of states during intl conferences, professors, etc.. Those ignorent as you call them, are people of great influence in the arab/muslim world, so no I cant ignore them because their words affect many and cause violence against me.....and that inturn has an affect on how I see my neighbors.

what your saying is demonizing me is of less consequence than having a palestenian state as my neighbor where they can continue to demonize me?...guess I dont accept being demonized anymore. Why do you think thats its OK?....at least thats what it appears to me what you are saying.

as far as us killing more of them then us being killed. You betcha!!. Because if we didnt i either wouldnt be here, or if I was, I probably wouldnt be allowed to use the freedom of the internet. (They probably shouldnt have attacked us so many times)

but i really dont understand this.. we really cant "boss" around Egypt, or Syria or Jordan..and btw, they do outnumber us, always have and always will. Maybe you can help me understand why they dont see us as humans with equal rights?

[sushi]

99. You want equal rights

but at the same time you also have two sets of laws, one for you and one for them. Please explain that!

but i really dont understand this.. we really cant "boss" around Egypt, or Syria or Jordan..and btw, they do outnumber us, always have and always will.

I didn't mean outnumbered by Arabs in neighboring countries. Israel's population is tiny in a sea of Arabs right now. I meant Israeli Jews will be outnumbered within a decade(?) by Israelis of Arab descent! You will have a problem inside Israel before too long!

[pelsar]

101. two sets of laws...

whats hard to explain....we're at war, the society that were at war with does not get the rights of the citizens of israel.

guess it would be pretty stuiped of us to give freedom of movement to a suicide bomber (at least we think so). and I hate to be practical but due process does not exist in a war.

if your going to attempt to explain that israel controls the westbank, then you'll have to explain what the PA various police forces, judicial systems, cabinet are all doing?

those define a society, we all know about the occupation, but thats what it is an occupation, they are not part of israel, nor will they be. They dont pay taxes to israel, they have no obligations toward the state of israel, no responsabilites toward israel, and are not citizens.

this one is not too hard to understand. The live under a military occupation and hence those are the laws they live under.\

BUT all that is irrelevant to the simple request that their society and "friends" not demonize me. There remains no excuse for that

[Djinn]

83. still here Pelsar?

wont the army be getting pissed at you by now - weern't you supposed to be on active duty days ago - or do they give you leave to post on internet forums :eyes:

[pelsar]

84. Djinn....

just went in for a short period and had to leave earlier due some unexpected pressures at work...no big deal

[Djinn]

85. you got called up for active service

for just 2 days that's not what you originally said but I guess you just got confused - you managed a cushy deal there although I guess given how old you'd have to be (based on claims in previous posts) the IDF would probably prefer someone younger.

[Forkboy]

87. Heh

:)

[pelsar]

88. djnn

was in for 10 days....but had to pop over to work in the middle...but then i doubt my actual service is of any real interest to you....as you seem to hint, (or so it seems) that, I have no credibility......well, go for it, keep on trying.

those of us who actually follow through our beliefs by actually doing something about it, dont take those kind of "stabs" very seriously. Now I could be wrong about you, seeing as this is simply a discussion on the internet, but its just an impression.....

[Lithos]

91. Pelsar

I agree this conversation has moved into personal issues and is irrelevant to the topics at hand.

I also hope people move on from this point as you've only been able to hint so far at some rather interesting viewpoints from the Israeli leftist perspective. These sound interesting and I would like to hear more.

Welcome to the I/P forum!

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Djinn]

93. my hints are bad

yours are OK - some of us follow through with our beliefs....whatever

[dems4israel]

98. Ok whats more important people or Olives

The Terrorists are not killing over stupid olive trees