French FM: Bush moving too slowly on Palestinian statehood

[Scurrilous]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/503032.html

<snip>

"It is not possible to continue postponing the establishment of a Palestinian state, French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier told the newspaper Le Figaro in a story that appeared yesterday. He also criticized U.S. President George Bush's for moving too slowly on the creation of a state.

According to Barnier, a Palestinian state should be established as soon as possible while taking into account Israel's security needs.

"I heard that President Bush says this will happen before the end of his term. I believe this does not need to wait until 2009. After all, the road map calls for the creation of a Palestinian state by June 2005," Barnier said.

When asked about France's role in the Middle East in the period following the death of Yasser Arafat, Barnier said France is interested in working to bring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to an end. He said the conflict endangers the stability of the entire region."

[cantwealljustgetalong]

1. I am France...

hear me squawk...

[Surikat]

2. lol!

:-)

[Djinn]

3. quick cantwealljustgetalong

there's a French citizen standing right behind you

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

5. Now I get it!

When you chose your screename you were being ironic. HAH!

[Djinn]

7. well that tears it then

one Islamic preacher says something offensive and bigoted that means the ENTIRE group (of over a billion people) of practising Muslims are racist, in fact it means Islam itself is inherently racist.

Damn I guess that means that because Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (the spiritual leader of the Shas party no less) said about Arabs:

""It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable,"

that Judaism and all Jews are also bigots? then again the bampot Yosef also said that the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust died because they were reincarnations of sinners so maybe he's a "self hater" as well.

I'm with you though it's terrible to chategorise or condemn an entire nation/religion/culture ...even if they're French

[cantwealljustgetalong]

18. blah blah blah...

lecture much?...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

21. it's called discussion

not lecturing - if you want to judge an entire nation go right ahead

[cantwealljustgetalong]

17. that's good Djinn...because here is something we can chat about...

The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

[Djinn]

20. OMIGOD

there's crime in Paris, there's ghetto's in Paris...arrrrggghhh all the judges are "soft on crime" atleast so says this conservative magazine full of guff like this article which apart from being nothing but the alleged anecdotal evidence from a VISITOR to France, is nothing but yet another rehash of every sad act right wing talking point about crime and society that you could fit in one article, namely:

"too much crime"
"soft on crime judiciary"
"immigrants and working class cause crime"
&
while scorning the French provision of housing, education & medical care he repeats the hoary old line about tired old Laura Norder

this twat thinks France is hopeless based on crime, "fuck the police" grafitti and the existence of ghettos - has he been walking around the US with his fucking eyes closed?

Here's some of their other choice pieces:

"The Myth of the Working Poor" by Steven Malanga

But it typically is personal failure and social dysfunction that create poverty.

"The Truth About Iraq" by Steven E. Moore

which details all the "good news" from Iraq and the "hopeful picture" there

"Not Just Morality" by Steven Malanga

explaining that economically people are better of under Bush

"Homeland Security? Not Yet" by Heather Mac Donald

which details how the "politically correct" who like things like due process and aren't keen on a police state are putting good americans at risk over homeland security.

For an even bigger laugh visit their book flogging page.

Ah yes City Journal - "the place where Rudy (Giuliani) gets his ideas.”

&

“City Journal is the best magazine in America.” Peggy Noonan

I always like to read the views of magazines that the Repugs get their ideas from, rightwing idealougues enjoy and who pack their publication committee with right wing corporate trolls.

Seems like an awful lot of the defend-Israel-always crowd do all their reading and research from right wing sources?

[cantwealljustgetalong]

22. lots of logical fallacies, little valid argument...

ad hominems - check
red herrings - check
straw men - check
non sequiturs - check

[Djinn]

23. just because YOU don't like/get it

doesn't make it invalid.

This article is pure bunk - it provides no real evidence, just repeats the oft used conservative lie about poor people and immigrants causing crime - do you dipute that's what the article is about?

Do you dispute this source is rabidly pro-economic rationalism and right wing?

When you can come up with a coherent argument about why this article is worthy - please post away

:eyes:

[cantwealljustgetalong]

26. I dispute you, and raise you two invalids, a bunk, and a knee-jerk...

the article is an identification of a social problem, not a treatise on economic thought...it provides a window into a slice of French society, describing a possible ticking time bomb that is in need of proper attention and some sort of remedies (which if successfully implemented, would reduce the likelihood of someone like Le Pen gaining political ground in France should the situation deteriorate, which won't do anybody any good)...

[Djinn]

34. it's as useful

as me visiting the US, driving past a few slums/ghetto's and deciding all is bad in the US because there's poor disenfranchised people living there. But then you knew that didn't you.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Yr free to give an exhibition of some valid argument...

Free from ad hominems, red herrings, straw men, and non sequiturs. So care to share yr opinion on what the French FM said? Y'know, that stuff about Bush and his go-slow on a Palestinian state?

Violet...

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

28. "your snide posts"

oy vey :eyes:

That's like me bitching about someone's sarcasm.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

30. Does this mean you consider djinn a bitch

or was that just a general statement?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

32. Dont get all English teacher on me!

I took it as a general statement.


Just asking questions...looking to gain knowledge :shrug:

[Djinn]

33. just a bitch

now that's pretty unimaginative, according to a not lamented very much ex IP poster I'm a lying anti-semitic bitch - only one insult is an INSULT! - wonder if gaby's proud of poppy?

[drdon326]

35. Damn....i miss GP.

You would think I would have remembered that post. lol

[Djinn]

36. not sure what you mean don

the post I'm referring to where the sad demented DU obsessed poster called me a lying anti-semite bitch is on the forum he/she ran to when DU tombstoned him/her. Interestingly enough she's one of the couple of ex IP heads who turned up at the site which can't be named and suddenly forgot all their "strongly held" liberal beliefs.

I'm not sure if the pain of banishment turned them from dedicated progressive into seething hate filled right winger or that maybe that's what they were all along, guess it'd explain their encyclopedic knowledge of rightwing media??...what do you think don?

[drdon326]

37. LOL

Not bad....pretty slick.

I guess next time you think you figured out all the answers , feel free to present your case to the powers that be....let the chips
fall where they may.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

41. GP said that ?? Thats disgusting and repulsive.

Let me state for the record that you are NOT a liar.













or anything.

[drdon326]

42. Interesting....

"I'm not sure if the pain of banishment turned them from dedicated progressive into seething hate filled right winger or that maybe that's what they were all along, guess it'd explain their encyclopedic knowledge of rightwing media??."



you may be right.....I understand mr.love,mr.behind, mr.plural,ms.
aido and mr. duct-tape are active there.

And there's a rumor out there that a certain poster here is on there.

hmmmmm???.........nahhhhhh

[Djinn]

44. WTF are you babbling on about

GP isn't at the site you're speaking of - try MoronsUnderground

But yeah those posters (or who I presume are those posters for some reason you've "disguised" their names) are at another progressive site so am I if that's who you're referring to - something wrong with that? - PS not all were banned.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rhiannon12866]

43. I'm far from qualified to get in on this discussion

I never saw post #29, so have no idea what it was about. But I do know that discussing banned members is clearly against the rules. I also know that she is very proud of him. While we might not always agree, I do know that he's always honest and tries to keep an open mind. I don't know anything about your disagreement, but don't think that it moves the discussion forward to dwell on past anger.

[Djinn]

45. I'm not dwelling on anger

I was never angry at the moron - I caught him out in a bare faced lie, so not sure where his "honesty" comes in, he then called me a liar and an antisemitic bitch - without mentioning I'm jewish of course.

Not angry - I think it's funny

[Rhiannon12866]

46. I just don't think it's right to discuss a banned member

It's against the rules, and he's not here to participate in the discussion. He and I had disagreements, but I always found him to be very fair on this board, and he was very kind to me, posting articles in answer to my many questions, when I was new to DU and I/P.

I don't know what the lie is that you refer to, since I missed this exchange, but name-calling never helps, especially in this forum. The reason that we're all here, I hope, is to discuss solutions to this horrific and bloody conflict. I know that's the reason that GabysPoppy was here, and I consider him a friend. A resolution of this conflict meant more to him, than to most of the rest of us. I can't imagine that the mods wouldn't have deleted such an inflammatory post and he certainly would have known better, after having posted in this forum for so long, than to indulge in a personal attack against you. That's the strictest rule in I/P. Attack the message and never the messenger.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, but no one here can indulge in personal attacks and hope to have their posts remain. You still sound very angry, despite what you say. I think that we've gotten off-topic, and should be discussing the perspective of the French, who adhere very strictly to their Constitution, which is why they opposed the war in Iraq, and could be of help in this beleaguered region. Bush* sure hasn't been.:shrug:

[Djinn]

48. a few corrections

GP didn't call me a lying antisemitic bitch in THIS forum so it couldn't have been deleted here.

GP claimed to have spoken to IDF personel who were PRESENT at the killing of Rachel Corrie when challenged changed that to just people in the IDF who were NOT present at the time - BLATANT lie.

It isn't against the rules to discuss banned posters just to discuss WHY they were banned.

I feel sorry for people who can not make an argument without resrting to lies, they are certainly too pathetic to make me angry

[Rhiannon12866]

50. Calm down. I promise I'm not attacking you or accusing you of lying

I just was hoping to calm the discussion before it got too heated, which happens far too quickly here.

I did not see your exchanges, so can't comment on them. I know nothing of his or your deleted posts. If anyone ever indulged in such personal attacks, they would have been deleted and should have been. I am hardly a rule-monger, but rules are necessary in this forum, since they keep things from getting out of hand. Emotions tend to run very strongly here, as you know.

I remember very well the night that the Rachel Corrie story broke on DU, since I happened to be on this forum that night. It was a terrible tragedy, and I feel that this has never been completely resolved, which is unforgivable. I can't imagine that anyone on this board wouldn't have condemned this. I do remember that GP posted another thread on the imprisonment of Lori Berenson. This is also another unnecessary tragedy.

I have seen mod posts that said that we weren't allowed to discuss banned members. This just incites people, and I have been here for a long time, so I just was trying to calm the waters. I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone.

And anyone posting lies has every reason to be confronted. But we have to be careful to attack the message, and not the messenger. That's the only way that we can keep this discussion civil. I certainly didn't mean to offend you. Nobody deserves to ever be called names on this, or any, forum. I'm on your side, but I am also sorry that GP is gone. He was always kind to me and I consider him a friend, even though we have often disagreed.:shrug:

[Forkboy]

25. I wonder why this is?

Seems like an awful lot of the defend-Israel-always crowd do all their reading and research from right wing sources?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. You wonder? I don't. (nt)

[Surikat]

6. The French gov't has got...

SO pathetic.

[Djinn]

8. you don't think

the Palestinians have been waiting a while now? what's "pathetic" about this call?

[Surikat]

9. What's pathetic is that the French government...

...has never managed to integrate Algerians into their own society, yet they have the chutzpah to tell the world how to sort out the Israel/Palestinian question. My mind just boggles at the impudence.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Thanks for the red herring...

I'd hazard a safe guess that no state is squeaky clean, so saying that they can't comment on international issues would make it that the entire world would be incredibly silent. Or is it only when there's a call for a fair and just resolution to the I/P conflict that the red herring comes into play? Because if we were to follow the path of that particular red herring, the US has even more chutzpah telling the world how to 'sort out' anything...

Violet...

[Surikat]

11. I've got no problem with that...

...I lived overseas and not a part of American society for two decades and was on the wrong end of American chutzpah more times than I find pleasant to recall in any great detail. That said, my earlier "pathetic" comment had to do with the French gov't, with a GDP like California's and twice the population, posturing on the world stage in a manner that would have barely been justified when Napoleon was Emperor, never mind the reduced circumstances the place finds itself in these days.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. But all Foreign Ministers 'posture on the world stage'...

That's their job, and it's a case where size doesn't matter. Do you also think the Australian govt is pathetic for posturing on the world stage about all sorts of things including Iraq and East Timor? See, while I didn't agree with what our silly twit of a Foreign Minister had to say on Iraq, I didn't think he should shut up just because of our small population and GDP. I disagreed with him because what he was saying was absolutely moronic and just displayed how firmly our govt is up Bush's arse. And, whadyaknow? Israel's GDP and population would be even smaller than Australias. Do you think they're pathetic and posturing on the world stage as well? ;)

Do you disagree with what the French Foreign Minister had to say? Maybe you don't think Bush is moving too slow (I'd call it moving backwards, myself) or that a Palestinian state should be established as soon as possible?

btw, I appreciate that you, unlike some others, restrict yr criticism of France to its govt and don't make sweeping negative generalisations about the French people :)

Violet...

[Surikat]

15. "Do you think they're pathetic and posturing on the world stage as well?"

At times, yes... very much so.

"I appreciate that you, unlike some others, restrict yr criticism of France to its govt and don't make sweeping negative generalisations about the French people."

Thank you. I've always felt that many essentially good peoples don't deserve at all the government they find themselves saddled with... and that includes Americans.

[Djinn]

12. judging by some of your other posts

I'm guessing you're an American - given the problems the US has I guess we wont see you criticise anyone else - oops too late.

I could of course Ihave the wrong country but I'd still bet that you don't live in some kind of liberal humanitarian utopia.

Someone's size also does not preclude them from making judgement or having opinions - presumably you don't accept everything that India or China have to say purely by dint of their population

[Surikat]

16. I tend to pay serious attention in direct proportion to their ability...

and willingness to make things happen on the basis of what they advocate. I see a rather large disconnect with the French government between posturing and performance in this regard that I don't see in the governments of many other smaller countries.

Don't get me started about the American government on the world stage.

[sushi]

14. France's Foreign Minister is right

Why wait until 2009? What happened to "a Palestinian state by 2005" according to the roadmap? Arafat is gone, so it should be easier now! I think * is flip-flopping to please Israel's PM.

[Rhiannon12866]

40. The "road map" is dead. Bush* had no intention of following it

But we have to press on. We need non-partisan negotiators in this process. If Powell is willing to become involved, so much the better, since he has credibility. Bush* does not, so anyone else that he chooses, if they're Bush* insiders, will not. During their recent, and very strange to me, bi-partisan meeting at the Clinton Library, former President Clinton pledged his support and Bush* accepted it. Clinton is the best that we've ever had in I/P negotiations, so I think that Bush* should, for the very first time, cross the aisle and tap Clinton to negotiate, with all concerned, for us. It would earn him tremendous political points, but might, more importantly, give peace a chance in this region.

[QueerJustice]

49. Now theres a credible voice....

:freak: :freak:

[Lithos]

52. Locking

This discussion has deviated into non-IP discussions.

Lithos
I/P Moderator
Democratic Underground