Destroying the stereotype

[drdon326]

Are Muslims aware of the threats they now face? Do they understand how millions of Europeans, Americans, Africans, Asians and Australians -- Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Confucians, those who ascribe to a score of other religions and those who ascribe to no religion whatsoever -- today see them?

Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, are viewed as barbarians who harbour a total disregard for human life. Their value system, far from discouraging the slaughter of innocent women and children, is seen to condone and even encourage such slaughter. This is the stereotypical image that today lumps together Muslims of all denominations, and from all societies and cultures.

snip

Muslims today face an urgent moral challenge, which they must respond to in a number of ways. They must refrain from reiterating the worn-out refrain that there is a conspiracy which aims to undermine Muslims and their image in the world. Every country, culture and society has its adversaries and opponents, and there are always conspiracies being hatched. But we must understand that it is the behaviour of individuals and groups that define themselves as Muslim which has allowed this stereotyping of Muslims to spread. Ignorant bigots, with the audacity to speak in the name of God, his Prophet and the Islamic religion, as well as for millions of Muslims throughout the world have hijacked Islam. It will remain hijacked for the foreseeable future.

Muslim and Arab intellectuals and opinion leaders must confront and oppose any attempt to excuse the barbaric acts of these groups on the grounds of the suffering endured by Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and elsewhere around the world. In condemning atrocities committed against innocent Muslim civilians, women and children, we must condemn too, and with equal force, similar acts committed against the innocent of any religion or culture. We must categorically refuse the linking of such acts to our religion and our belief system. The death of innocent people in Palestine, Iraq or Chechnya can never justify killing innocent people in Nepal, Turkey, Spain or France. Moral values are indivisible. We criticise the US for employing double standards. We must not make the same mistake.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/709/op8.htm

The writer is editor-in-chief of the quarterly Al-Siyassa Al-Dawlia (International Politics), issued by Al-Ahram, and member of the Shura Council.

..................................................................

Intelligent article .....someone who gets it.

A welcome view in this holiday season.

[Jim Sagle]

1. A truly enlightened view...thank you for posting it.

[TrustingDog]

2. bullshit.

""Muslims today face an urgent moral challenge""

Guess they have to cut down in their cluster bombs and depleted uranium spewing and sanctioning countries to the point of children suffering and dieing in the thousands... you go, girl. good statement. :P

[me b zola]

57. cut down on their suicide(homicide) bombs would be a start...

But in the end the masses have drank the kool-aid of religion, please read Karl Marx. In the end, my simplistic theory is that the most powerful people on the planet have always engaged in seeking more power--which is a zero-sum equation. The mid-east, which cannot match our military, is using religion as a way to wage undeclared war on the rest of the world. Meanwhile, we moan about the religious-right in our own country, but fail to see how they are seeking to make us similar slaves to serve their need for power.

[meti57b]

3. This author is right on! ...... "Only by condemning atrocities ....

... falsely enacted in the name of Islam will Muslims be able to clear their image,"

Many people I have talked to are of the opinion that Muslims are all dedicated to the destruction of the US. The gripe I hear the most often, is "why don't any Muslims speak out and condemn the events of 9/11".

[Djinn]

14. Only the ignorant say that

"why don't any Muslims speak out and condemn the events of 9/11".

they have repeatedly - there is no Muslim "Pope" there is no one person that can sepak for over a billion people, but many many many prominent Muslims HAVE condemned it.

Strangely though no-one's writing about the rest of the world's view of the US who've been responsible for the deaths of FAR more people than the jihadi's have been in the last few years.

[drdon326]

30. I'm sure you have stats on that.

Strangely though no-one's writing about the rest of the world's view of the US who've been responsible for the deaths of FAR more people than the jihadi's have been in the last few years.


proof please ??

[Djinn]

32. you're kidding right

100,000 deaths in Iraq is just a start add the uncounted thousands in Afghanistan - even if you only look at deaths caused DIRECTLY by US forces/government it is WAY higher than those killed by the jihadis.

I can not beleive you would attempt to deny that don - life must be sweet in the pretend world you live in

[Tuco Ramirez]

58. The West destroyed the Caliphate in 1918

and has since only bitched about the lack of pronouncements from the Caliphate ever since.

[newyorican]

4. buying into any stereotype...

requires a lack of education (often willful) or a predilection to believe the worst about the entire targeted group, based on the actions of a few fanatics. That predilection is often, accurately, described as discrimination, bigotry or racism.

[drdon326]

6. Not sure if we can really just say "a few fanatics" at this point.

searched the web and came up with this list:




COUNTRIES SUFFERING SUSTAINED ISLAMIC TERRORISM AND/OR REPRESSION

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Bangladesh
Bosnia
Chechnya
China
Croatia
Cyprus
East Timor
Egypt
Eritrea
Georgia
India/Kashmir
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Israel
Ivory Coast
Kosovo
Lebanon
Nigeria
Pakistan
Philippines
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Tajikistan
Thailand
Uzbekistan
Yemen

COUNTRIES SUFFERING OCCASIONAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM

Argentina
Bali
France
Germany
Indonesia
Italy
Jordan
Kenya
Kuwait
Morocco
Spain
Tunisia
Turkey
United Kingdom
USA

COUNTRIES SUFFERING MUSLIM MINORITY UNREST & CRIMINALITY

Australia
Belgium
Canada
Denmark
France
Germany
Netherlands
Norway
Russia
Spain
Sweden
Turkey
United Kingdom

(http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003721.php)



thankfully the antartic is spared.



Personally, I think Belgium,Russia,Sweden,and Netherlands should go right to the top in light of recent events.

[ashiebr]

7. Hey, Doc.....

......I've just noticed something strange. Many of those countries are also subject to crimes by Christians. And in the case of Israel, by Jews. And watch out for those Hindus in India. I also see Nepal isn't on the list - although the Maoists are having a field day there! Damn atheist heathen.

What a pathetic list. You should be ashamed to post it.

Going straight to jihadwatch is hardly evidence you "searched the web".

[Violet_Crumble]

11. That list was disgusting...

And what's more it wasn't even jihadwatch, but the post of some bigoted anonymous internet twit who posted a comment on the blog. Oh well, I guess it's a great example of the negative stereotyping that some seem to think the author of the original article in this thread was condoning ;)

Violet...

[Djinn]

15. didn't you like how we made it onto it

the closet we ever got was Bali - which was an attack on INDONESIAN soil that killed more non Australians than Australians.

[drdon326]

31. I'm sure that was not their intent.

I'm not an expert....is the list accurate??

[Djinn]

33. no it's not

violence in East TImor was over independence from Indonesia NOT Muslim/Christian based.

Australia has NOT witnessed an attack - Australians have been killed in an attack in INDONESIA.

Then there’s all the countries where the government being fought against is every bit as fundie as those fighting. Half of these are not fights over jihadi visions for the future but tribal/ethnic and land disputes that would STILL be occuring had Mohammed decided to become an atheist.

You also might want to tell the “expert” that devised this list that Bali is not a country

As for including countries suffering “Muslim criminality” jesus even YOU should see how biased that is – what does “criminality” include, any Muslim nicks a packet of smokes and it makes it onto a jihad watch list??

[drdon326]

35. Well.....

We can start with Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands.

[drdon326]

38. Actually......

The first acts began with the bombings of the Hakoah Club and Israeli Consulate in Sydney in 1982.

Although as I understand it, Australia has passed some rather rigid anti-terrorism laws.

[Lithos]

39. Not correct

There were several incidences in the 60's and 70's by Australian Croatian nationalists.

See here for a history of terroristic incidences in Australia:

http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=Your%20say&subclass=General&category=Columnists%20Analysis&story_id=91190

[drdon326]

40. I stand corrected.......and I am humbled.

excellent article....

I didnt know this also.....

In 1986, the same group struck again. This time two members resident in Sydney attempted to bomb the Turkish Consulate in South Yarra, in Melbourne. The only person killed was Hagop Levonian, one of the bombers. Levon Demirian, the other bomber, was arrested due to ASIO information, as he was about to leave the country for Lebanon. He served 10 years in jail.

[Djinn]

42. they weren't the first either

but i digress - should we make a list of all the crimes committed by Jews? or a VERY long list of Jewish terrorism perpetrated by those attempting to establish their own nation - or is terrorism in the past only relevant when it's committed by muslims?

[Lithos]

44. No...

.. is terrorism in the past only relevant when it's committed by muslims?

No, I was trying to show just the opposite.

L-

[Djinn]

45. sorry that bit was meant to be directed at don

confusing myself - brain not working today - getting mired in threads about bloody PETA!

[drdon326]

47. Pul-eeze.....

your exact words....

didn't you like how we {Australia} made it onto it ....the closet we ever got was Bali

My point was Bali was NOT the the "closet"{???} it ever got.


You're Welcome.

[Djinn]

61. Puh-leez

sorry I never noticed your babbling post before - there is a difference between "Muslim terrorism" which has come to mean those committing terrorist attacks in order to promote and instigate Islam (or atleast their weird version of it) ie terrorism for Islam and terrorism committed by those who happen to be culturally Islamic

People attacking Israeli interests are attacking ISRAEL just because they happen to be Muslims it does not follow that their actions amount to "Muslim terrorism" in the commonly accepted meaning, unless of course you hold that the Oklahoma bombing was an act of Christian terrorism or that Kissinger's terrorism in Indo China was Jewish terror?

[newyorican]

62. I'm confused...

is it pul-eez or puh-leez...

[Djinn]

63. hehe

just me refusing to have any similarities with everyones favourite doc

[newyorican]

9. A perfect example...

of a shoe fitting so well, that the foot is clueless to its existence.

[ashiebr]

5. Is the writer aware..............l

.........that many "Europeans, Americans, Africans, Asians and Australians" are also Muslims?

Dare I suggest the author is indulging in stereotyping of his own?

While I take his point, Muslims in those continents have condemned the acts committed by extremists in their name. Short of starting another "We're sorry for everything" website, what more can they do?

John Lennon sang that "Woman is the Nigger of the World". That mantle has passed to Muslims.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. My gripe with what he wrote...

..was that he seems to be justifying the negative stereotyping of Muslims that's done by some ignorant folk in the West. That unless there's some massive sorrysession from every Muslim for every atrocity committed where religion is abused for political purposes, then that negative stereotyping is understandable. While that outlook probably appeals to those who do engage in negative stereotyping ala 'Why aren't any Muslims apologising for Sept 11???', it's flawed as far as I'm concerned. Do Christians need to get a massive sorrysession happening when it comes to fundamentalist Christians who murder doctors who perform abortions lest they all be negatively stereotyped as condoning this abuse of Christianity? Do Jews need to get the same massive sorrysession happening for the actions of their religious extremists who murdered Rabin, massacred Muslim worshippers in Hebron, and murder Palestinian civilians? No-one would expect Christians or Jews to apologise for every atrocity committed by extremists, and it should be no different for Muslims. Folk who are so ignorant that they can't tell the difference between Islamic extremists and ordinary Muslims really haven't got a leg to stand on when they complain about equally ignorant folk who can't tell the difference between Christian or Jewish extremists and ordinary Christians and Jews. The solution to ignorance is not to apologise to that ignorance, but to educate. It really doesn't take that much time or energy to comprehend the difference between Islamic extremists and ordinary Muslims. Unfortunately some of the ignorant have a great desire to stay ignorant, and they're nothing but bigots who no-one should waste their breath on...

Violet...

[drdon326]

12. I suspect....

the author is acutely aware of that and even speaks of it.....

Consider that for the first time in history angry demonstrations broke out in Nepal -- which has a Hindu majority and a Buddhist minority -- targeting anything linked to Islam. The embassies of Egypt and Saudi Arabia were stoned and the capital's largest mosque pillaged and burned.

I think the author seems to care about them immensely and the potential repercussions of the stereotype he speaks of.

Really intelligent insightful article.

[Jim Sagle]

13. "Dare I suggest the author is indulging in stereotyping of his own?"

You can suggest it, but seeing as how

The writer is editor-in-chief of the quarterly Al-Siyassa Al-Dawlia (International Politics), issued by Al-Ahram, and member of the Shura Council.

your suggestion is highly unlikely.

[ashiebr]

16. Then I can only suppose.........

....there was an error in translation, or the piece is addressed only to Arab Muslims.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ashiebr]

18. Errrrrrrrr.........

.......Don't quite follow.

[newyorican]

19. Being "addressed" to a group

doesn't mean others are not allowed to read. It means the author doesn't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks about it.

That being said, it's not clear that this is addressed to solely to Muslims.

[drdon326]

20. No error in translation......

The author understands full well the fact that how the islamic terrorists hurt the vast majority of peaceful muslims who want no part
of what they do.

Our most difficult, and most important, challenge is to create a strong body of Islamic public opinion which loudly condemns the actions of these groups. They must no longer be allowed to hijack Islam. The Muslim majority must declare to peoples of all cultures and religions, and in the clearest of terms, their condemnation of these acts, and their determination to bring them to an end. Strong and vocal Muslim opinion will show up these groups for the aberrations they are.

Notice too how the author gives no pass to the palestinian terrorists and allows for no excuses, no explanations,and no reasons for them.

Muslim and Arab intellectuals and opinion leaders must confront and oppose any attempt to excuse the barbaric acts of these groups on the grounds of the suffering endured by Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and elsewhere around the world.

[Djinn]

21. change a few words...

Thinking about the occupation...is this article still NOT racist??

Are Jews aware of the threats they now face? Do they understand how millions of Europeans, Americans, Africans, Asians and Australians -- Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Confucians, those who ascribe to a score of other religions and those who ascribe to no religion whatsoever -- today see them?

Israelis today face an urgent moral challenge, which they must respond to in a number of ways. They must refrain from reiterating the worn-out refrain that there is a conspiracy which aims to undermine Israel and their image in the world. Every country, culture and society has its adversaries and opponents, and there are always conspiracies being hatched. But we must understand that it is the behaviour of individuals and groups that define themselves as Jewish which has allowed this stereotyping of Jews to spread. Ignorant proponents of "Greater Israel" with the audacity to speak in the name of God, his Prophet and the Jewish religion, as well as for millions of Jews throughout the world have hijacked Judaism. It will remain hijacked for the foreseeable future.

Our most difficult, and most important, challenge is to create a strong body of Jewish public opinion which loudly condemns the actions of these groups. They must no longer be allowed to hijack Judaism. The Jewish majority must declare to peoples of all cultures and religions, and in the clearest of terms, their condemnation of these acts, and their determination to bring them to an end. Strong and vocal Jewish opinion will show up these groups for the aberrations they are."

And as for don’s little editorialising….

Notice too how the author gives no pass to the Israeli terrorists and allows for no excuses, no explanations, and no reasons for them.

"Jewish & Israeli intellectuals and opinion leaders must confront and oppose any attempt to excuse the barbaric acts of these groups on the grounds of the suffering endured by Jews in Israel, France (joke joyce) and elsewhere around the world."

[drdon326]

22. Ahhhh...the racist card....again.

Help me out......how come many pro-peace progressive muslims

who see and have first hand knowledge of events, are labeled

(or insinuated to be) by many here as "RACIST"??

Maybe , just maybe, he has some knowledge you dont have....and throwing the word "racist" at the author is really disgusting.




(As for your little exercise in c/p-ing, since its not true it really doesnt amount to anything.)

[Djinn]

23. nope of course not

making all Muslims responsible for the actions of some, generalising all because of the actions of some. Nup not bigoted at all. :eyes:

[drdon326]

24. OMG !!!!! Are you serious ???

He never said all muslims were "responsible" for their actions !!!!

He said they were RESPONSIBLE TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEIR ACTIONS !!









(Sam Kinison)

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG !!!!



mods.....no reason to delete this...this is NOT an attack but a discussion of the article) sheeesh

[Djinn]

25. THEY HAVE THEY DO

what do want don? there is no Pope or grand leader of all Muslims. However Muslim leaders everywhere have spoken out against the fundie muslims. Perhaps you don't actually bother to acknowledge the existence of any progressive/moderate muslims?

Personally I think it's ridiculous to claim Muslims have a responsibility to speak against the actions of nutbags. I don't feel a responsibility to speak out against the words/actions of the Kahane mob, nor those of Rabbi Ovadia. Most Christian I know don't feel a responsibility to speak against the actions of abortion clinic bombers. Most Americans don't feel the need to speak against Tim McVeigh.

Strangely enough most normal people feel that their beliefs/actions ahve nothing to do with fundamentalist murderers.

Perhaps Muslims could get some t-shirts made up "I condemn all acts of terror" just to keep you happy. Maybe we could institute a law statsing they had to embroider this on their clothing.

Would it be OK to make a generalisation about all Jews/Israelis based on the fact that not all that many Jews (proportionate to those who defend it) have spoken out against the Nakba or occupation?

On edit:

mods.....no reason to delete this...this is NOT an attack but a discussion of the article) sheeesh

I wasn't aware you got to tell the mods what not to delete

[drdon326]

26. C'mon djinn....

you throwed the "racist"card out there.....It was just unfair for you to do it.

"Perhaps you don't actually bother to acknowledge the existence of any progressive/moderate muslims?"

If i gave this article/author anymore praise, i would have to marry him.

[Djinn]

27. I mean a "moderate" muslim

who doesn't blame other muslims for the state fo the world and who don't feel that a billion muslims need to apologise for something they have NOTHING to do with.

[drdon326]

29. I give up....you win.

He doesnt blame peaceful muslims.....

He doesnt feel that they have to "apologize"

He IS a what you want.




djinn.....i need a drink.

[Djinn]

34. OK not apologise

just "speak out" - well they have - so that's SORTED then.

[Djinn]

28. self deleted - dupe

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

36. Innocent religion is now a message of hate

by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed



It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

snip

What a pathetic record. What an abominable "achievement". Does all this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?

These images, when put together, or taken separately, are shameful and degrading. But let us start with putting an end to a history of denial. Let us acknowledge their reality, instead of denying them and seeking to justify them with sound and fury signifying nothing.


For it would be easy to cure ourselves if we realise the seriousness of our sickness. Self-cure starts with self-realisation and confession. We should then run after our terrorist sons, in the full knowledge that they are the sour grapes of a deformed culture

snip

We cannot tolerate in our midst those who abduct journalists, murder civilians, explode buses; we cannot accept them as related to us, whatever the sufferings they claim to justify their criminal deeds. These are the people who have smeared Islam and stained its image.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse605.xml

Abdel Rahman al-Rashed is general manager of Al- Arabiya news channel. Yesterday, his article appeared in the pan-Arabic newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat.
..................................................................

Just a great article.....another intelligent person who

finally "gets it".

[Jim Sagle]

37. Abdel's da man, doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place.

[Darranar]

41. "almost all terrorists are Muslim"...

Not really.

Murder for political purposes is actually quite common.

[drdon326]

50. Except.......

these aren't poltical purposes.

So by your question, you think its political, huh?

[Darranar]

51. I think murder for purposes of political coercion is terrorism...

so, logically, if such crimes are common, and they are not exclusively, or even primarily, committed by Muslims, the statement I quoted is wrong.

The primary motives of Islamic terrorism are irrelevant to that, but to answer your question, as it's directed towards the West, I do think it is largely political. When it comes to oppression and murder of other Muslims, it's principally religious.

[drdon326]

52. Interesting....

yet when "Islamic terrorism" (your words) are associated with "killing the infidel" , I really dont think its political in nature.

:eyes:

[Darranar]

53. Obviously, when religious fundamentalists fight wars of any kind...

religious language is used. It still doesn't mean that those wars are religious in nature.

Iran, ruled by an oppressive fundamentalist government, deals with European "infidels" quite readily. Saudi Arabia, also ruled by an oppressive fundamentalist government, keeps the military bases of American "infidels" in their country. A variety of Muslim fundamentalists have cooperated with the United States over the years, often to form a joint front against secular nationalists and communists.

That is not to say that they do not have a problem when the United States slaughters or supports the slaughter of Muslims. However, that problem is principally political in nature, and though religion has its place in it, as it always does in the activities of religious fundamentalists, it is not the primary reason behind it.

[drdon326]

54. hmmm.....

"It still doesn't mean that those wars are religious in nature."

uh....I believe, sadly, it does.

[Djinn]

43. Islam is a message of hate?

:puke:

[Forkboy]

46. But,he agrees with Don,so therefore he "get's it"

[drdon326]

48. Actually...

I agree with him ...whats your opinion of the article?

[drdon326]

49. Wow....very terse in your opinion.....

I was hoping you found this the "moderate" muslim you were looking for.


Do you think he was too confrontational?

Do you think he is racist?

Do you think he doesnt understand the situation?

I kinda posted this with you in mind....I was hoping you would like it.

[drdon326]

60. kick....

:kick:

[Tuco Ramirez]

55. The threats they face?

They've dealt with this for years; the real question is, does the rest of the world understand the threat they now face? There are a billion Muslims in the world, and they are growing rapidly (through a higher birthrate and conversions).

To even mention non-Muslim countries that have imported Muslim labor to compensate for a low birthrate (Italy, Spain) makes my point: the non-Muslim world is shrinking, and it is entirely self-inflicted.

Without a drastic change in mentality, the "West" has no chance. It will take a long time, and may be completely non-violent, but present trends indicate the followers of Mohammed will win.

[sushi]

64. I'm afraid you're right

Without a drastic change in mentality, the "West" has no chance. It will take a long time and may be completely non-violent, but present trends indicate the followers of Mohammed will win.

I just hope it will be completely non-violent.

Welcome to DU.:hi:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

59. I think i missed your point ....

care to explain ??