The two faces of France

[drdon326]

In the 1967 Six Day War, when Israel's existence was threatened, France's president Charles de Gaulle took a pro-Arab direction and instituted a weapons embargo on the Middle East. In his press conference on November 27 of that year he included a much publicized anti-Semitic statement, calling the Jews "an elitist and domineering people."

This is often considered the beginning of post-Holocaust anti-Semitism in the democratic mainstream of Europe.

snip

It took Chirac until November 2003, however, when a Jewish school in Gagny was firebombed, to come down strongly against anti-Semitism. A few months earlier he had told a delegation of the Simon Wiesenthal Center that there was no anti-Semitism in France. On the way to their next meeting some delegates who had their heads covered were insulted by anti-Semitic remarks on the streets.

snip

A few weeks later Chirac and France went out of their way to pay homage to Yasser Arafat before and after his death. They thus honored the person who had given international terrorism against civilians probably the largest innovative push in the past decades.

It recalled Chirac's insulting 1996 visit to Israel, after which he kowtowed to Arafat.

There are no indications that France's fireman-arsonist approach is going to change. One can also expect increasing efforts by the French government to try to drive a wedge between the French Jewish community and Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1103429252434&apage=2

......................................................
Stlll more endless reasons why i love the french.

And that is why French Jews cant wait to gtf outta there.

[pnutchuck]

1. I live in Paris, France with my Jewish boyfriend

Yes, there is anti semitism here. But I think it is being viewed a bit out of proportion. There is also anti-semitism in England, the US, Germany, etc. To say that you hate France base on their government policies, justifies them saying they hate all Americans based on our policies. Chirac, passed the law here in France to ban the wearing of head scarfs in public schools. However, Chirac has a difficult job with 20% of the French population being Muslim. Nearly all of the French territories were Muslim; Morroco, Tunisia, Algeria, etc.

[drdon326]

2. I'll bite......

Is your boyfriend Aaware of the increase EXODUS OF fRENCH JEWS out of France??


I'm sorry to disagree with you as you seem very sincere and open but to pass off the freightening rise of anti-semitism as 'just like everyone else' is really intellectually dishonest.

And I hope YOU and your boyfriend are outraged at the French govt and in paticular, Chirac ignoring the rise in anti-semitism....ALMOST to a point of passive approval.


I hope your boyfriend is registered here.....i'm sure he could add alot of information.

on edit ...the french people are fine....I'm just not Chirac's biggest fan.

And my 3 years of French in high school seems to have left nothing as i cannot even muster a single sentence in french.

[pnutchuck]

3. Yes, he is outraged with Chirac

All of the Jewish people are. He is aware of the exodus of the French Jews. He is not registered on the DU because he is French and speaks little English.

I was not issuing passive approval of anti-semitism, I was simply disagreeing with your statement that it is another reason to hate the French. Not all of the French people agree with, or even approve of Chirac, especially the Jewish communities, but outside of them as well. Therefore, you can't simply lump all of the French people into one enormous ball of hate. This is the kind of thinking that is breeding anti-American sentiment as well. There are those who think the American people are the sum of their government's policies.

I lived in Bali and Thailand for a while. After the war in Iraq, the muslim communities began identifying all Americans as war mongers and imperialists. To the point,I had to return to the Western world for my own safety. We do not feel this same threat here in France. There is nothing passive about believing the best way to make change is through peaceful demonstrations and pressuring the government to change it's policies. Unfortunately, rather than organizing and demanding changes, many people are choosing to move to Israel. (There are also a lot of Americans in Israel.)

[drdon326]

4. Oy vey.

I wasnt talking about the french people...i was talking about the government.

We do not feel this same threat here in France.

Dont bet on that.

btw...to clarify,the "passive" I was referring to was about Chirac.

We actually DON'T disagree.

[pnutchuck]

7. I guess I mistook your statement for sarcasm

"Stlll more endless reasons why i love the french."

However, I understood by your reply that you don't hate them, I was just responding to the above statement.

Chirac is shit, so is Bush

I live in the 9th district of Paris and it is predominently Jewish. There are no swatzikas (spelling?) inscribed in graffiti on Kasher (that's the French word for Kosher) businesses. There have not been any threats to Jewish businesses or people here in my neighborhood. I said that I don't feel the same threat as I did in Thailand or Bali because my gallery has not been destroyed by a bomb as it was in Bali. Tourist buses of Westerners aren't being hijacked and gunned down as happened in Thailand.

[drdon326]

9. OK..

There are no swatzikas (spelling?) inscribed in graffiti on Kasher (that's the French word for Kosher) businesses. There have not been any threats to Jewish businesses or people here in my neighborhood.

Funny..... I remember a group of people said the same thing about
60+ years ago.Like I said.....dont bet on it.


And btw, youre right...Chirac is shit...so is bush.

[drdon326]

10. OMT....

Where are all the "peaceful demonstrations and pressuring the government to change it's policies" regarding the Chirac failure to stand up anti-semitism?

I havent seen it.

[pnutchuck]

12. Nor have I, and that was my point.

[pnutchuck]

13. Rather than looking to France for a rise of Nazi's

perhaps we should be looking on our own doorstep. I agree that anti-semitism needs to be stopped so does all racism but, attacking a country that you have no first hand knowledge of yourself, seems (oh how did you put it?) yes, intelectually dishonest. I think the real threat to all people is our own current despot waging wars on disenfranchised people and only fueling anti-american and anti-semitic sentiment. Perhaps one of the major reasons emmigration by the French has increased is because of the fact that that anti-semitism has increased since Bush waged his war on Iraq. There are Jewish people here, like my boyfriend's father, who immigrated to France from Algeria during the Islamic uprising. There is still much hatred between both sides. intohttp://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7481.htm

[drdon326]

14. And also....

France can stop its history of kow towing to thugs like

kholmeni(sp), arafat and saddam....that might help alot.

[Flagg]

17. France is also kow towing to Sharon

who is responsible for far more Arabs death than Arafat, Khomeni and Hussein were responsible for jews deaths.

Sharon also organized the 1982 Sabra and shatila(sic) massacre.

[QueerJustice]

20. Organized?

Turned a blind eye maximum...organized and executed by Lebaneese....

[Flagg]

16. So is Sharon.

[Flagg]

6. 2500 French Jews a year leaving France for Israel is not an exodus

700 000 Jews in France.

Not all of them pro Israel.

[drdon326]

11. French Jews' immigration at highest level in 30 years

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x82159

[Flagg]

15. Still pretty low given the "situation".

With all the misinformation and anti-French propaganda coming from Israel you'd think French Jews would be getting out of the country in droves by now.

Yet it's not the case.

How do you explain that ?

[drdon326]

18. Sorry..

actually there is a whole of correct information and

no anti-french propaganda.....thats why its the highest rate

ever getting out of that country.

[QueerJustice]

21. No?

Really? Not even a majority Zionist?
Are they different from other Jewish communities worldwide?

A whole community of self haters?

Help me out here?

http://www.jafi.org.il/papers/2004/jan/jan01ajp.htm

[Flagg]

5. 6 million is 10% of 60 millions not 20%.

[pnutchuck]

8. Thank you for the correct math

never been very good at it myself, still use my fingers for day to day calculations.

[DemFromMem]

23. Not a fair comparison

Anti-semitism in the US is considerably milder than in Europe. Acts of physical violence against Jews in the US is virtually unheard of and acts of vandalism against Jewish institutions is certainly proportionately much less likely to occur in the US. I have just learned that two - yes two! - of the cemetaries in Eastern Europe where my ancestors are buried have been desecrated. Thats appalling. My family can't even escape anti-semitism in Europe 60 years after the last one there was murdered.

[catbert836]

19. Could that have any relation to

Israel killing innocent Palestinians and ruling them like a dictator...? No! Of course not! Why am I thinking this?
BTW: Not to say I'm for ant-Semitism, just that I don't believe many Jews are being opressed and I understand where the Palestinians are coming from. Also, France, I believe, is a good country. It's cetainly not the only country with anti-Semitism.... there's more here.

[QueerJustice]

22. Succint , to the point...

...and overall a very clear post.....

[mogster]

24. This looks like it's picked right out of the NRO website

But, as it turns out, it's just another piece from a very (neo)conservative Israeli, known for his rigid attitude towards Europeans in general:

ANTI-SEMITISM: INTEGRAL TO EUROPEAN CULTURE

By Manfred Gerstenfeld

* The resurgence of European anti-Semitism after the Holocaust suggests that it is integral to European culture.
* The European Union's attitude toward anti-Semitism is double-handed. With one hand, by its discriminatory anti-Israeli declarations, the EU plays the role of arsonist, fanning the flames of anti-Semitism. With the other, it also serves as fireman by trying, at the same time, to quench the flames of classic religious and ethnic anti-Semitism. France is paradigmatic of this attitude.
* New European anti-Semitism often originates from youth, which indicates that rather than an anti-Semitism of the past it is one of the future.
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I am a European and don't recognize this reality picture at all. Get real? :-o

Further:
This info was picked from
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/apr04/gerstenfeld.htm

Freeman.org is led by Bernard J. Shapiro, a man tightly connected to JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) - pure rightwing surroundings, led by familiar names like Richard Perle, Douglas Feith et al.

As this quote from Rightweb shows:

"Former head of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, Richard Perle, is a member of JINSA’s Board of Advisers and serves as a spokesman in furthering JINSA’s goals. Other former advisory board members include Dick Cheney, John Bolton, and Douglas Feith. Former administration officials from the Reagan era are James Woolsey, Jeane Kirkpatrick, and Michael Ledeen."

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/jinsa.php

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I'm not saying anti-semittism doesn't occur in Europe, but we need to keep our hats on.

And check the sources for bias.

[Forkboy]

25. Well,this is a shocking development

A right wing source? From my buddy?