Arafat's successor: Palestinian state will replace Israel

[DavidDvorkin]

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_9.html

Not sure if this is really LBN. Is this a reputable source? At first glance, I thought it was the International Herald Tribune, but clearly it isn't.

[Brundle_Fly]

1. you should re-read the rules.

[Wonk]

2. It's fascinating how many DUers, who aren't newbs, don't bother to

Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x87249

Please be aware of the following restrictions when posting in Latest Breaking News:

1. NO opinion pieces, editorials, or other stories that are not news.

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5. All of our other rules for posting apply as well, including copyright rules.

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7. Discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum.

If your message is not Latest Breaking News, you should post it in the General Discussion Forum or in one of the other forums.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Oh, this rag.

Published on the side by that well-known moonie who distorts the news for The Washington Times, Jeff Gertz.

Believe most of it right about the same time monkeys start flying out of your butt.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

4. THAT rag? If they say 2+2=4, check with a calculator. (nt)

[Sara Beverley]

5. Uh oh, "the devil we don't know."

Sharon may be wishing he hadn't treated Arafat so inhumanely.

[aquart]

6. "Inhumanely"????

The odd thing is, you aren't kidding.

[TO Kid]

7. Seems in character, but...

I'd like some confirmation before going into a rant.

[drdon326]

8. Start your engines....

"Fatah chief Farouk Khaddoumi said the Palestinian strategy toward Israel was two-fold. In the first stage, he said, the Palestinians would accept a Palestinian state alongside Israel. In the second stage, the Palestinians would seek to eliminate the Jewish state."


SNIP

"Khaddoumi said his platform was endorsed by the PLO in 1974. He said the strategy called for a phased plan that would establish authority over any territory obtained from Israel, concluding with an Arab war to destroy the Jewish state."


Why you so surprised??

Like you haven't heard this strategy thousands of times before??

:shrug:

[The Magistrate]

10. Unfortunately, Doctor

It is always wise to pay attention to what a faction leader who may control a number of guns says, particularly when things are in flux and anyone may feel he can rise to the top. Though tghis particular source is certainly rightist to the core, there is no particular reason to doubt the quoted statements were made, and meant. It is not, as you point out, a new or unusual view....

[drdon326]

11. Magistrate....let me ask you a question.....

Do the palestinians want peace??

When I read stuff like this, the PA MEDIA incitement, rebuking Blair,
endless terrorist attacks,the palestinian support of terrorists, .....I could go on and on...



I really want to think so.....but I seem to be havibg some doubts.

[The Magistrate]

12. My Answer Would Be, Yes, Doctor, They Do

Admittedly there may be some stock quality to this, as it is my conviction that humans generally prefer peace to war; it is much less wearing. Prolonged war is the exception rather than the rule in human history, and when a conflict continues for a very long time, it is fair to presume something extraordinary is going on.

Part of the problem, of course, may be in the definition of what constitutes peace, from each party's point of view. Often, in a bitter conflict, the definition of peace tends to blur into the concept of victory, and a definition of peace, for example, from the Arab Palestinian point of view, that involved the movement of millions of Arab Palestinians into the established borders of Israel, which would so alter the demographics of that state that it would be converted in short order into another Lebanon, with Jews standing for Maronites, would lie a good deal closer to victory than otherwise. Similarly, a definition of peace from the Israeli point of view that involved a continued spread and ever more solid establishment of Jewish settlements in the Jordan Valley, with access easments for purposes of security forces' movements, would lie a good deal closer to victory than otherwise. Both sides are going to have to learn to define peace as something that includes a good deal of what the other side wants. It seems to me that on the Israeli side, the absolute minimum demand is acceptance of the legitimacy and existance of Israel, and that on the Arab Palestinian side, the absolute minimum demand is a genuine state, that Israel will recognize as legitimate and inviolable in its territorial extent. Absent these basic requirements, the only semblance of peace that can occur is one imposed by a victor's power, and only the Israeli state is in a position to do such a thing as matters now stand.

It seems to me that what most of the ordinary people on both sides of this conflict want most is for the damned thing to stop. They do not want to fear for their lives and the lives of their loved ones; they do not want to be menaced by the armed forces of the other; they want to go about their lives and livelihoods in security and prosperity. That seems to me the clearest reading of a variety of polling data that have over times been bruited about here, in which people on both sides indicate, in response of course to different questions, that by decent majorities they support both a negotiated peace and various extreme measures to prosecute the war their peoples are involved in. The support indicated for all these things is so great that an appreciable number must have answered yes both to whether they supported negotiations and whether they supported suicide bombings, or expulsion of Arab Palestinians. To my view this does not so much indicate confusion as a willingness to support whatever seems likely at the moment to bring the carnage to an end.

One uncomfortable thing that all sides are going to have to accept as well is that an end to the conflict does not mean the peoples will necessarily be friends, or even, by and large, much like each other, and it certainly cannot be made a condition of ending the conflict that they bid fair to do so. An Arab Palestinian state is almost certainly going to be a place very hostile to Jews, nor will Arab Palestinians be likely viewed with any less hostility in Israel, and being an Arab Israeli is likely to become less and less pleasant into the bargain. In both places there will be elements, both social and political, that dedicate themselves to nurturing hate for the other, and they will have distressingly sizeable followings, for a generation or more....

"An optimist thinks this is the best possible world; a pessimist knows it."

[drdon326]

13. Great answer......wow

Ive read it 3 times and i'm still impressed.

"It seems to me that what most of the ordinary people on both sides of this conflict want most is for the damned thing to stop".....

Yes ......they do.


"An Arab Palestinian state is almost certainly going to be a place very hostile to Jews, nor will Arab Palestinians be likely viewed with any less hostility in Israel, and being an Arab Israeli is likely to become less and less pleasant into the bargain."...

not sure why you would say that but what WILL be interesting to see is where israeli arabs chose to live. Wanna bet?

[The Magistrate]

17. Thank You, Doctor

Your compliments are much appreciated.

There are several reasons it seems to me that there would be some deterioration in the quality of life or Arab Israelis in the wake of a settlement. First, in this current round of hostilities, a good many Arab Israelis seem to have identified somewhat with their cousins outside that state. This will be remembered by the extremist parties among Israeli Jews, who may be expected to kick up a campaign against "the enemy within" after a settlement, if only to vent their spleen in the absence of a more real enemy without: such organizations need an object for hatred, and Arab Israelis will do nicely. Second, the demographic difficulty will remain owing to the unequal birthrates, and this will give a sort of cover to such feelings....

[satori]

25. Correct me if I am wrong

You can correct me if I am wrong but the natural state of man in humanity is to live in Peace and not war, and that living in peace with others means in the heart the mind and the soul of the nation type of peace in which all by their free will want to and do live in peace as friendly neighbors.

From what I read of actual articles of ordinary citizens concerning the West Bank before Arafat and the terrorists moved to the West Bank was a much different picture then we have today. And in that article he said everyone Jew, Muslim, Christian lived in peace with each other on the West Bank and they (Jew, Muslim, Christian) liked each other as friendly neighbors, but then Arafat moved in and all hell broke loose because guns were everywhere and people were being shot or scared of being shot in the streets because of the Arafat fanatics that moved into their country.

Am I wrong?

[The Magistrate]

33. Yes, Sir, You Are Wrong

Wrong in both the general and in the particular.

It would be a bold student of history, or of paleo-anthropology, who would venture to assert the natural state of human-kind was peaceful. War is a feature of human societies from the most simple to the most complex; indeed, despite a general apprehension that it is otherwise, war between modern states kills a much smaller proportion of the populace of such states than was killed in the smaller scaled affrays of earlier societies. Humans certainly prefer peace to war, but they have not generally gotten to exercise that preference nearly so much as they would like.

As to the particular, someone has been feeding you fairy-tales about the Jordan Valley, and the matter is loosely addressed below in No. 31....

[TO Kid]

15. I would say many Palestinians do

The problem is that their "leaders" have them too intimidated to speak out.

[Darranar]

9. Real source, please. n/t

[satori]

14. Arafat was a problem

If I was the powers that be in Israel I would resolve the Israeli problem with the West Bank terrorists by non-violent principles. What are those non-violent principles? The West bank Arab terrorists would be considered like a unwanted neighbor in an apartment building so I would evict everyone on the entire West Bank. Then for a period of 5 years the people that lived on the West Bank could not come back to the West bank until they went thru the non-violent impartial committee to weed out the Arafat PLO terrorists. I would hire both Arab liberal Christians (non-Violent ones), liberal Sufi Muslims that follow the path of peace and non-violence and non-violent Jews that never supported Arafat or the PLO or any other terrorist organization to weed out the PLO Arab terrorists.

Most of the people that lived on the West Bank never wanted Arafat and the terrorists in the West Bank anyway. I would cut off all ties to get any US military support of money or goods for the Israeli government or military.

Then if after a period of 5 years after the 5 years to weed out the Arafat terrorists if no violence occurred at all to Israel that after this 10 year probation period I would give them a state of Palestine.

[The Magistrate]

16. Many Thanks For The Chuckle, Sir

"Comedy is best left to professionals."

[number6]

23. that is a hell of plan is it not, a bit complex though.

;):silly:

[newyorican]

18. That would be quite a trick...

To "non-violently" "evict" armed nationalist militias, let alone everyone else. Isn't that called ethnic cleansing?

[newyorican]

19. Oh Yeah...

Would you also evict the several hundred thousand settlers?

[satori]

20. When I said evict I mean they move to another Islamic country

When I said evict I was thinking that they move to another country. I would then make the West Bank a state of Israel after I kicked out all of the Arabs including the Arafat PLO terrorists.

Then with the West Bank as a part of Israel during that 10 year probation period anyone that is a Jew from around the world can move to Israel or to the West Bank now a State of Israel under the law of the Right of Return.

Then if no violence was occurring from the West Bank from the Arabs that were allowed to be considered citizens during the second 5 year probation then they would be given a country called Palestine. And the Jews that live in the Israeli West Bank could stay in the country of Palestine after that 10 year period or move to Israel. And for the Jews that decided to stay in the new country of Palestine if any violence is done to them the deals off and they (the Arabs) all get evicted again to another Islamic country in the Middle East to start the 10 year non-violent impartial committee plan to weed out the terrorists.

[The Magistrate]

21. Some Un-Solicited Advice, Sir....

Leave it go while you still can....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[newyorican]

22. So...

You would only "evict" (deport) Arabs form the WB, and leave the settlers there AND annex the WB into Israel proper. You would then allow only Jews to move into the WB for a number of years.

That's quite a plan, my friend. Worthy of the Idi Amin humanitarian award, I'd say.

[satori]

24. Idi amin?

Was not he the one that was that Islamic General that was a dictator in some South African country known as the butcher of Africa?

My religion is Catholic and I am a pacifist. I would never even join a military nor would I want to be a General like he was because I think that all wars are unjust. I am against the death penalty so as a matter of principle and morals of mine if I was the leader of Israel no one would be killed. I would also cut all military support from the USA, and it would be a type government in Israel that would reward tolerance of all, Christians, Muslims, and Jew because it is the Holy Land of God and in order to enforce the peace the government would be more secular oriented and would have a separation of Synagogue , Church and State.

I am also a liberal so if you have a better way or suggestions that are non-violent of how to modify it then let me know.

I just gave my personal opinion of articles I read about people that lived on the West Bank before Arafat and the terrorists moved their.

From what I read the Jew, Arab, Muslim all lived in Peace until Arafat the PLO terrorists came along. Then all the good Arabs that are non-violent were bullied into being silent about the injustices of Arafat and his terror group. I just don’t think that the Arabs in the West bank have the power or the resources to weed out the terrorists so it would be best for safety reasons to ask all Arabs to relocate to a neighboring period of time, and then they could move back to the West Bank under strict laws that would make it virtually impossible for the terrorists to get back in then the Arabs, the Jews, and the Muslims could all live in peace like they did before Arafat moved in.

[newyorican]

27. You need to read more...

n/t

[The Magistrate]

31. There Never Was An Eden, Mr. Satori

Violence in the relations between Jews and Arabs hardly had to await the coming of Arafat, who was himself born some decades after some of the worst outbreaks. If you are refering only the Jordan Valley prior to '67, the error remains. There were precious few Jews in that area, as moost had been driven out in episodes of violence befining at the end of the twenties and continuing up to the Second World War.

[satori]

26. General Idi Amin had strong links to Arafat's terror organization the PLO

Amin had strong links to the Palestine Liberation Organisation, (PLO). The Israeli embassy was offered to them as headquarters; and Flight 139, the Air France A-300B Airbus hijacked from Athens on the 27th June 1976, was invited by Amin to stop at Entebbe. The hijackers demanded the release of 53 PLO prisoners in return for the 256 hostages, and were assisted by Amin's troops. Amin visited the hostages more than once. On July 3, 1976, Israeli paratroopers attacked the airport and freed almost all of the hostages. Uganda's air force was badly crippled as its fighter jets were destroyed in the action.
See also Operation Entebbe.

Amin fled to exile, first in Libya, where sources are divided on whether he remained until December 1979, or 1989, before finding final asylum in Saudi Arabia. He opened a bank account in Jeddah in 1979, and resided there with his four wives until his death, subsisting on a government stipend. The new Ugandan government chose to keep him exiled, saying that Amin would face warcrimes charges if he ever returned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin

[newyorican]

28. Thanks for the History lesson...

but it's your plan of ethnic cleansing that puts you in running for the award.

[satori]

29. ?

You mean if a landlord evicts a out of control tenant from his apartment building that is ethnic cleansing? Again I am not saying inflict the death penalty on the out of control Tenant (the PLO) but just that they be evicted from their base of operations and then I would allow the non-violent Arabs to move back to the West Bank and if no violence happened in 5 years I would give them the Arabs and the Jews and the Christians on the West Bank a country called Palestine.

I am not a lawyer but I never heard of that before as defense to not be evicted.

[QueerJustice]

30. your not a lawyer?

:smoke:

[The Magistrate]

32. Do Give It A Rest, Sir

To engage just one of the more fundamental flaws in your Grand Proposal: on what ground do you liken Israel to a landlord of the premises in question? A landlord has a clear title deed to the premises let to a tenant; it is that which gives the landlord right to a say in who occupies it and how they conduct themselves while they do so. Israel has no title deed whatever to that land; it has merely seized it by force of arms, and done so while its present inhabitants were in occupation of it. The normal presumption that the occupant of a habitation is its owner, unless sound documentation to the contrary can be produced, is in this case re-inforced by the actions of the previous clear owner, the United Nations, which inherited the property from the League of Nations, that had it in receivership from the defunct Ottoman imperium: the United Nations, in partitioning the whole of Palestine into a Jewish Zone and an Arab Zone, designated those areas as part of the Arab Zone. At a minimum, this can be certainly taken to indicate the property in question is not Israel's, and that therefore Israel cannot exercise a landlord's right to evict a tenant from it.

[satori]

34. Well I have a thought

Even though I am not a lawyer I did a Google search on Israel and it seems like a gray area of law. All that stuff with the UN the deals with the British easily both sides could of been confused about how the agreements were hammered out.

And it seems like the Jews and the Arabs have had a war around 1957 and the Arab Israeli war, and it seems like all the same points and issues by both sides have been argued over and over again.

If the Arabs have not received any country arguing your points over the past 50 or more years, then what is so wrong with my non-violent proposal?

Think about it even if the Jews gave the Arabs a country called Palestine that would not solve the problem of the violence and the terrorism because some might want the whole land of Israel.

One of the 20th centuries most infamous terrorists Arafat has died from old age, why not have the Arabs and the Jews seek a non-violent solution to resolve the conflicts? The problem of the conflicts will have to be faced at some point in the future. So why not face them now.

With my plan a independent Non-violent committee created by pacifists from around the world would create a 3 person panel committee made up a Sufi Muslim with non-violent training, a Christian liberal Arab (Someone like Ralph Nader for example) and a Jewish pacifists that has never had any strong support for Arafat the PLO or for to much support for Israel.

And if all went well 5 years is the very latest if it went well perhaps most could move back to the West Bank in 2 or 6 months.

[The Magistrate]

35. It Is A Grey Area Of Law, Sir

Only for people who are paid to toss charcoal in the white-wash. A quick "google" is no substitute for reading and research.

As a point of curiousity, how do propose to go about non-violently evicting several millions of people from their residences? Generally, such efforts involve a good deal of violence....

[satori]

36. Good question

Yes I was just thinking of that as you responded. Well of course they would all be given notice and because I am a pacifist as the new leader of Israel I would no longer see the need for a large military and a military-Industrial-Complex nor would I see the need to receive any funding from the USA for the Israeli military.

I would cut the military budget by 90% so that would give me alot of free cash to convert my military into the non-violent Israeli, Army, Navy, Air force and the rest of the money would be used for welfare social programs like providing for the housing, maintenance, well being, support, and education and legal aid for people of the nation of Israel.

So during the process I would work by using my non-violent army... to use the other social agencies to prepare and educate the people on the West Bank for the eviction. I would have so much cash on hand that I could probably help pay for some to have money as they are evicted to support themselves in other countries up until it was proven by my non violent 3 panel impartial hearing that they were Arafat terrorists then the funding would stop.

It perhaps might help to have a 5 year process just to prepare for the eviction, using the above scenario.

[The Magistrate]

37. This Jest Has Been Pursued Long Enough, Sir

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[King Mongo]

39. Prime Minister Satori

Honorable Prime Minister

When you say Israel, are you talking about Israel including Yesha (the occupied territories) or excluding Yesha?

If you are talking about Israel including Yesha, also known as Eretz Israel, are you not supposed to represent the people of the land that you represent? As the leader of Eretz Israel, should you not yield to the desires and pressures of the people? If Eretz Israel is a democracy, then it cannot evict millions of people from their homes because doing such is not democratic especially when the motive for eviction is based on race, culture or religion. Prime Minister, you must recognize that Eretz Israel chose to represent the people who live in Eretz Israel by placing its border around them and thus it is the responsibility of the democratic government of Eretz Isreal to treat all the people living within its border equally and to represent them fairly. Eretz Isreal is not a dictatorship and you will be impeached if you cannot represent your people.

Furthermore, with a reduced military, how would you deal with the problems of organized crimes? Would you seek international assistance? It is my understanding that there are large groups within Eretz Israel which feel as if they are not properly represented by your government and are thus seeking a separation from Eretz Israel to form their own State. Can you demonstrate to your people that you can represent them fairly or will you assist them with the separation?

If you are talking about Israel excluding Yesha, then it is certainly extremely undemocratic to evict people outside of Israel who are not represented by your government. Doing such is simply unthinkable. Democracies exist for the purpose of helping the people whom they represent, not harming those whom they don't represent.

Regards,

Minister of Education and Culture,
King Monkey

[satori]

40. I disagree

I am not a lawyer. I suppose because I am half Jewish and my grandparents on my fathers side are Jewish as is my father I qualify to become a Jewish citizen if I wanted to under the law of Return but I have no Honorable or official status in any way whatsoever in Israel or anywhere nor do I work for any government agency.

I was only giving some scenarios of how I think the violence can stop in the Middle East from my perspective as a pacifist that lives in the USA.

I was using the example of a tenant in an apartment building that was out of control to discuss how the landlord has the right to evict them if they are out of control. So some would remind me that it is unclear whom has the deed to the land Israel or Palestine and that Palestine could have the deed to be the owners of the land of Israel so therefore Palestine is the landlord of Israel. Well in the USA Tenants can have landlords that own buildings evicted and tenants as well that are out of control.

The Arafat PLO terrorists are out of control, and they bother Israel so Yesha Israel (the occupied territories) the other tenant in the apartment building has out of control neighbors living in the same building with them, so, where I am from NYC, if a neighbor is out of control even if they are the landlord and have a deed to the land and are the owners of the land or property they can be evicted and a administrative landlord can take their place.

Democracy as I define it is living with your neighbor in a peaceful and friendly manner. So it is not in any way democratic to let a slum lord have out of control tenants and/ or the landlord to be out of control even if that landlord owns the whole building or a neighboring building such as (Yesha (the occupied territories)that bothers others on the block, or in the same building if its privately owned condo.

I would not be impeached if I was the leader of Israel because if that is the law in Israel I would go to the court and have it changed because it is not a fair or reasonable law that you quote nor is it democratic the law that you quote.

[King Mongo]

41. Helping Eretz Israel practice democracy

Honorable Prime Minister

I undestand now that your definition of Israel means Israel including Yesha (occupied territories) which is also known as Eretz Israel. This means that you are prime minister of Eretz Israel (for the sake of discussion) and thus our discussion is regarding Eretz Israel and not Israel since Israel is only a part of Eretz Israel and thus the word Israel excluding Eretz, as the nation that you represent, is inappropriate for this discussion given that it could lead to misunderstandings.

As we know, Yesha is a part of Eretz Israel because Eretz Israel took the land of Yesha after waging war. Since Eretz Israel took Yesha, the people of Yesha are a part of Eretz Israel, meaning the people of Eretz Israel. Such could also be defined as the tenants of Eretz Israel.

Being tenants of Eretz Israel, you are correct that the government of Eretz Israel may, under certain circumstances, relocate the tenants of Eretz Israel to another part of Eretz Israel. However, relocating the people of Eretz Israel within Eretz Israel can be a very costly procedure due to compensation payments and is thus preferably avoided as strongly as possible.

You are correct that Eretz Israel has major problems regarding organized crime and it is true that you, as Prime Minister, must do everything possible to reduce crime in order to protect all of the people of Eretz Israel, including the people of Yesha.

However, I would like to point out that a large portion of this organized crime resulted from the lack of democratic practices within Eretz Israel. For instance, since Eretz Israel was formed, many people of Eretz Israel have been denied the right to vote and are not properly represented by their government, Eretz Israel. It is important to observe that Israel does not have the problems that Yesha has because democratic practices within Israel have improved greatly within the last 30 years while democratic practices in Yesha are still far below international standards and thus subject to extensive international criticism which has caused Eretz Israel to lack the title of being a democratic nation.

While I am not the Minister of Economics or Foreign Affairs, it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that the undemocratic practices performed in Yesha are very harmful to Eretz Israel, excluding it from the international community which is harming our reputation and economical state.

I understand that it is difficult to be the Prime Minister of Eretz Israel while living in New York and it is diffult to understand how the lack of democracy in Yesha is hurting our relations with our neighbors. Nevertheless, as Prime Minister of Culture and Education, it is my duty to help you as much as possible and assist you in creating peace with our neighbors by solving the difficulties found in Yesha.

Sincerely
Prime Minister of Culture and Education
King Mongo

[King Mongo]

38. Mass evictions are inhumane

Evicting people is never a solution. There are only two solutions to this situation:

1) Equality and citizenship for everyone in a one-state solution
2) Equality and citizenship for everyone in a two-state solution

No State can prosper without being a part of the international community and thus every State will eventually yield to international pressures encouraging the practice of equality and citizenship for everyone. Furthermore, democracy has attractive advantages for any individual and every individual in every nation can be motivated by the international community to encourage democratic practices in their own nation.

[satori]

42. Modification to article

For the Christian liberal pacifist I said Ralph Nader might be a good example to sit on a non-violent committee. I have recently learned that Nader has supported Arafat and the PLO so he would not be an example of someone that I would pick as a impartial pacifist for the non-violent committee.

[King Mongo]

43. Ralph likes the voice of the people

Ralph likes democracy and thus he supports the voice of the people. Ralph is unlikely to support a puppet government or dictatorship. Thus, Ralph is the best candidate for the non-violent committee.

[satori]

44. I disagree

If I was the leader I have to pick for the non-violent committee those that are dedicated to the principles of non-violence. From my reading of his platform I even voted for him in 2000 and 2004 he says he is against wars, and is against the death penalty that is why I voted for him. But my research shows that he supports Arafat and the PLO and Naders followers are supporters of the Hezbollah here in the USA. As a pacifist the pacifist of principles of non-violence I say that all wars are unjust and that includes wars from the left and from wars from the right, so if I was the leader of Israel I would kick him off the non-violent committee if I had him on it or if he was not on yet I would pick someone else. And if Nader runs in 2008 I no doubt would not vote for him and my 2000 and 2004 votes I consider as mistakes.

I would have to pick people that don't have any hate in their heart for the Jews the Arabs the Christians or anyone.

[King Mongo]

46. Violence is unnecessary when the power if non-violence is demonstrated

>>I would have to pick people that don't have any hate in their heart for the Jews the Arabs the Christians or anyone.

Based upon this logic, Ralph is a perfect candidate while Sharon is not. To even think that Ralph hates Jews, Arabs or Christians is totally rediculous, if not even scandalous.

Let me remind you that Arafat was elected by his people, he represented them, he accepted Israel, denounced the practice of violence and worked with Israel towards peace. While there are many myths that Arafat ordered violent attacks, nothing has been proven in the court of law. Futhermore, Arafat cannot be blamed for Sharon's rejection of Taba 2001 or Sharon's rejection of the Geneva Accords or Sharon's rejection of the Arab Peace Plan. Arafat simply cannot be blamed for Sharon's refusal to negotiate. Any pacifist will tell you that non-violence is not possible when negotiations are rejected. While you rely on many myths, it is important to not ignore the facts.

Furthermore, one must remember that people have the right to defend themselves. People have the right to resist the occupation and fight for their independence. Non-violence, in this situation, only works when people have the interational support and strength to politically and economically ruin the occupying power, if necessary. Without international support, people will defend themselves using those tools available to them. Understanding the right of self-defense helps us to comprehend that most resistance movements will discard violence when offered powerful and effective non-violent assistance. It is possible to work with people to reduce violence if one can prove to them that violence is not needed to practice self-defense. Thus, resistance groups like the Hamas and Hezbollah will abandon violent self-defense once demonstrated that non-violence is more effective.

I understand that you will not vote for Nader because you support the forced transfer of many Palestinians from their homeland. This is a very violent activity which Ralph strongly denounces.

[King Mongo]

45. Effective non-violence guided by Ralph Nader

As demonstrated with the protests of the past, Oslo, Camp David and violent forms of resistance, the only way that non-violent resistance can stop the growth of Israel towards the dead sea is if Ralph replaces Bush in the white house and applies pressure upon Israel to end the occupation. Regardless of what Palestinians do, Isreali expansion will continue and can only be stopped with international pressure coming from the US. Non-violence is ineffective when not combined with US pressure due to the following philosophy:

The legal right of Jews settling in Tel Aviv is the same as that of Jews settling in the areas which were conquered in the Six Day War.
http://www.moetzetyesha.co.il/arti.asp?id=44