Settlers use their kids......

[pelsar]

I believe very strongly that if people could stick with the truth/facts as much as possible a tremendous amount of miss communication wouldn't occur....

The world of the black and white versions of this conflict would move over to the grays that it really is. That black and white version is what the extremists on both sides want, as then it makes their version that much easier to sell. And for those who buy it, they're buying into a cult, a religion if you will, where any and all information that doesnt fit their mold is immediately thrown out. (as I have seen here)

I saw on TV last night, the israeli police remove some settlers from an outpost. What galled me was the women who were being passive and had to be pulled away were clutching their 1 to 3 yrs old babies with them. During Intifada I, I cant recall a single report, military briefing, nor seeing any palestenian women bring their babies to the protest...My disgust was palpable.

Why would I bring this up here? Simple because its the truth as clear as I see it. On the other side the palestenian kids are involved in the conflict (apox 13 and up), for those who deny that, I would suggest its simply because it goes against "their belief"....there is no room for that kind of blindness in this conflict.....

extremists and their cheerleaders, be they settlers, jihadniks or simply posters on a website, are part of the problem, when they refuse/cant/wont look in a mirror and see their own shortcomings or wonder how it looks from the other side.

[The Magistrate]

1. Well Said, Sir!

Well said indeed....

[King Mongo]

2. Excellent observation

The problem exists on both sides.

[Forkboy]

3. The use of kids in any conflict is sickening

politically or militarily.

[number6]

4. will LGF log this as child abuse ?

and will we see this in the MSM ?

[newyorican]

5. Don't hold your breath...

eom

[pelsar]

7. the israeli govt

and if you read the above carefully you seemed to have missed the point:

since it wasnt in the intl news, it would be rather difficult for lgf to write about it,
(as in many many events that happen here)

the israeli govt is now charging the woman in video with child abuse...I 'll let you guys attempt to understand what that means in terms of the israeli society- that was the jist of the post-reflection on your beliefs in reference to the "other side"

[King Mongo]

8. The other side

The other side, the Palestinian Security Forces, has a very difficult time enforcing the law, given that most of the time they are not allowed to carry guns.

[pelsar]

9. king....ask first...

partially true and partially not..part of the greyness. During certain times they can carry small arms (pistols) in the westbank. In Gaza their weapons have to stay in the police station during certain periods. Its a constantly changin situation depending upon the general evironment.

However, when it comes to day to day order, they dont need their weapons.....but all that is not really relevant. There are certain values a society and the larger society of the world must attempt to adhere to, that is the basis for civilization.

blanket demonization, exageration, myoptic (???) views are not part of those values.

[King Mongo]

10. Fighting crime

When dealing with "terrorism", I find that one should be armed with tanks, fighter jets, missles, machine guns and other tools to prevent criminals from harming civilians.

Pistols are not enough to get the job done.

This means that it is the job of the IDF to end apartheid, collective punishment and other related problems because the Palestinian Security forces are only allowed to carry pistols for a limited amount of time.

Furthermore, given that Palestinians are a part of the IDF, the IDF must equally and fairly protect the people that it is supposed to protect, since they live in Eretz Israel (Isreal including Gaza, Samaria and Judea).

Number of Muslim, Christian Arab volunteers in IDF growing
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/520911.html

[pelsar]

11. king.....

you seem to skip over certain facts....or you live in a different reality

the palestenians are not part of the IDF....that article refers to israeli citiizens.
and the IDF does its best to protect those that its supposed to protect: israeli citizens.

We dont protect palestenians...something to do with a war going on with them. I noticed that you either think the palestenians are part of israel, or that they should be something else that is very confusing.

let me clarify; we have two basic societies (with a complex mosaic) one made up mostly of palestenians one of israelis. We are now have a low level war with each other, we are killing or trying to kill each other, and we work with each other, we have commerce together in some places.

BUT, we are two different societies each with its own judicial system, laws, cultures and representatives....each is responsable for his own society....

got it?

[King Mongo]

12. The people of Eretz Israel

There is only one difference between an Israeli-Palestinian and a Palestinian refugee: The Israeli Palestinian did not flee war while the Palestinian refugee from Israel fled war and was prevented by Israel from returning home.

Since Israel builds walls in Yesha (Judea, Gaza and Samaria) and builds cities in Yesha and since its troops defend Yesha, the people of Yesha are Israeli citizens, even if the Israeli government refuses to accept such. The lack of equality in Eretz Israel is a major problem that Israel needs to learn to deal with.

The fact that people are not treated equally in Eretz Israel is related to the fact that the Isreali government refuses to treat its people equally.

Once Israel recognizes equality in Yesha regardles of race, religion or culture, then it will be correct to recognize that Palestinians live in two separate nations.

[pelsar]

14. now I understand...

and my reaction is: wow!
There is only one difference between an Israeli-Palestinian and a Palestinian refugee: The Israeli Palestinian did not flee war while the Palestinian refugee from Israel fled war and was prevented by Israel from returning home

King....i am not sure how to write this without sounding too condescending but the israeli arab (those who didnt leave) in general look down upon the palestenians. In their own social scale, the palestenians are below the druz, the bedouin, etc. they are "lower then low." They are NOT the same people-just ask them.

if you would tell your theory to an israeli arab, you would be lucky to get away with your skin intact.

What is it, that some who has never been here, obviously does not know our culture or subcultures has the audacity to explain to us, what our "real culture, real history, real connections are".

The whole idea of someone from a different culture, using a western definition to define an eastern culture smacks of ethnocentrism....meaning you and your western analytical tools, think you can explain to us, who and what our cultural/sociological connections are....

guess you missed it: the great white cultural western man, who carved up the third world, no longer has a patent on knowledge....especially when it comes to cultures.....come down from your ethnocentric superior perch and learn what the people really think and believe and give them credit for knowing their own culture...(and you talk of apartheid!)

[King Mongo]

19. Words from an Israeli Palestinian child

If you put aside the assumptions and generalizations, there may be room to see more in the tunnel.



Sammy, age 10, from the Bedouin village of Gan Khakel

First of all I am a human being, only then a Muslim. I adore birds. Their many colors and the freedom they symbolize. I love tigers because of the color of their coats and the force they show. I like to relax by reading the Koran. I like to be with nature, among flowers, like in the rural open spaces around my house. I want to be a doctor of structural engineering, and I believe with all my heart that this dream will come true. I fast during Ramadan. On Friday I go to pray in the central mosque in Ramle, called Al-Omri, and sometimes also in Hasan Bek in Jaffa. Occasionally I travel with my family to pray in the mosque of Al-Aksa in Jerusalem and that is very special. Most of all I want there to be peace between Palestinians and Israelis. I am a Bedouin, and there are Bedouins who serve in the army. I consider both Jews and Palestinians brothers. And that is a problem. I am not happy with the situation. Every family has a relative in Palestine, especially among the Arabs, and the atmosphere in the country is violent. I don't think there is a solution to the present state. I ask the Jewish children how they feel in the war and if when they grow up they will want to go into the army. I want to ask them that when they go into the army they will always behave ethically and humanely.
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~pspas/halmag.htm

[pelsar]

20. then explain to me....

my assumption and generalizations.....I'm listening....explain to me how each of the subcultures within the palestenian/israeli conflict see each other? as your "solution" professes knowledge of the subcultures

I'll give you a start:
israeli arabs
israeli bedouin (north)
israeli bedouin (south)
israeli druz
israeli druz in the golan
israeli jews
israeli christian
non israeli christian
israeli arabs -religious north (south)

palesteniain islamic arabs
palestenian christians
palesteniain religious islam
and the various jihadnikim....

i know you dont them.....in fact I understand that you actually have very little understanding of them (feel free to correct me if I am wrong)....so its pretty absurd that you propose a solution that requires the various groups to modify their own identity to fit your solution...its actually worse than that...like i mentioned above, its an ethnocentricity that parrallels that of europe in the 20th century, the attitude that "we know whats best for you".....

wrong century

[King Mongo]

24. The opinions of individual Semites....

Writing down the opinions of each individual Palestinian would create a book with over 1000 pages.

However, the probability is very good that most Palestinians (including citizens of Israel) see things very similar to that of the 10 year old boy above.

Why? Most people think that all Semites are related and should live together under conditions of equality and harmony.

[number6]

21. so this was only reported on Israeli TV then.

so the question is why didn't any intl news pick it up ?

"the Israeli govt is now charging the woman in video with child abuse"

as they should.

[Lithos]

6. Note:

Keeping this open as moderator discretion.

Lithos
I/P Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Malikshah]

18. Thanks--

It is a fascinating discussion and much needed.

[number6]

22. thanx

;)

[Jack Rabbit]

13. Children have been used as pawns on both sides

Some time ago, there was discussion in this forum about the inability of the UN to pass any resolution explicity condemning the killing of children in the I/P conflict. The Israelis wanted language condemning Palestinian terrorists and the Arab states wanted language blaming the IDF.

Of course, they couldn't just agree to condemn the killing of children, wheather they were Isreali or Palestinian, regardless of the circumstances or the blame. That would be too reasonable.

Both sides have been trying to play victim. Both sides have been too busy playing victim to show any real concern for any real victims.

[eyl]

16. That wasn't exactly what happened.

The UNGA passed a resolution condemning violence against Palestinian children (UNGAR 58/155), but an almost identically worded resolution decrying violence against Israeli children was effectively blocked (Arab states demanded any specific references to Israeli children be removed, and in the end Israel withdrew the resolution)

[bemildred]

17. I think he has the spirit of the episode right.

Not that I intend to imply that you have the facts wrong.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/27/1069825895273.html

The Israeli resolution, presented October 29, was "a mirror of the resolution on Palestinian children" approved earlier by the General Assembly, Gillerman said.

---

The text of the resolution presented by Gillerman simply substituted "Palestinian children" with "Israeli children."(sic)

---

Intense diplomatic negotiations, especially by Egypt, proposed a modified resolution that covered all Middle Eastern children. Gillerman preferred to withdraw the measure rather than to see it subjected to a vote.

It seems to me both parties here display a desire to preserve their
singular status as victims, neither wishes to allow the child victims
of this war to be considered together. Hence one may infer that both
sides are most interested in the propaganda aspect, rather than the
welfare of the children as a group. But that is already obvious.

[eyl]

23. Actually, IIRC Israel wanted the resolution

more to prove a point regarding the UN's attitude to Israel (that it would pass a resolution specifically supporting Palestinian, but not one supporting Israeli children) rather than for its own sake (it's not like Hamas and their ilk would pay much attention to UNGA resolutions, after all)

[bemildred]

25. Exactly my point, Sir. nt

[Jack Rabbit]

26. . . . and exactly mine

It does seem I had the facts wrong and that one of the resolutions, in fact, passed.

That doesn't seem very important to me, even though it demonstrates a UN bias that cannot be ignored.

That point revolves not around whether one or the other resolution was passed, but simply the unseemliness of introducing them with language that suggests that only one side is responsible for atrocities towards children in this conflict. It reminds me of the scene in Romeo and Juliet where the two houses come before the Prince, each demanding justice against the other. Visually, I have in mind the scene as depicted in Zefferelli's film version, with the corpses dragged in and displayed before the Prince in an absurd attempt to say, "See, it's all their fault and only their fault."

[eyl]

27. I don't know

If I was the author of the Israeli resolution, I'd probably write in something like "decrying violence against both Israeli and Palestinian children...". However, that would mean

1) basically decrying violence against children without any mention of who'se carrying out the violence - unless you think Israel would present a resolution criticizing itself, and without blaming Israel blaming Palestinian groups would never pass either (in fact, to my knowledge, there has never been a resolution specifically condemning Palestinian terrorist groups by name)

2) you'd get an imbalance where there where two resolutions condemning violence against Palestinian children and only one condemning violence against Israeli children (the Israeli draft was submitted only after the Palestinian resolution had passed, and was basically a copy of it).

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Response

1. Perhaps the way you would word the resolution would mean Israel would be condemning itself; perhaps that is how the Arab resolution should have been worded, which would mean that the Arab states would be condemning the Palestinians.

2. Both sides ought to be condemned.

[King Mongo]

29. Reducing violence

Honorable Eyl

If I was the author of an Israeli resolution, I would write something like:

"Israel must recognize Palestinian citizenship for the illegal settlers, the IDF must defend Israel behind the green line and the UN troops must be sent to the independent state of Palestine east of the green line to reduce organized crime."

Or, I would write something like this:

"Israel must provide seats for the Hamas, Palestinian Authority and other Palestinian parties in the Knesset, Israel must practice equality and recognize citizenship with the indigenous population and UN troops must be sent to Israel to reduce organized crime."

I'm still undecided, so I haven't written anything yet. This would be my first step to fight against violence which harms children.

Your humble servant
King Mongo

[bemildred]

15. Kids make great pawns.

Zealots don't give a shit about kids and they love pawns.
QED.

[Scurrilous]

30. 3 Hebron women sentenced for blocking caravan evacuation

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/524917.html

<snip>

"The Jerusalem Magistrate's Court handed three women from the West Bank city of Hebron suspended sentences Sunday for congregating in a caravan there with their babies in an attempt to block security forces from removing the trailer, Israel Radio reported.

The women were convicted of interfering with a police officer carrying out his duties and failing to fulfil their parental obligations."

<snip>

"Judge Yehezkel Barkali said the court views with severity the defendants' decision to bring their children to a demonstration and use them as human shields, the radio said.

Barkali said the defendants have no justification for potentially endangering their children either physically or emotionally by involving them in a possibly violent situation."

[King Mongo]

31. who learns from who?

Do people learn from the IDF, or does the IDF learn from the people?